So i just went for an inspection sticker in my emissions-friendly state (Mass) and got notified of rejection based on "OBD Readiness Monitor Results." I am currently running a 2013 PP SHO w/ LMS Cat'd Downpipes and their 93-octane tune.
I've contacted Anthony over at LMS who has told me i need to return to Stock programming as the downpipe tune bypasses the O2 sensors. Obviously i would like to avoid replacing my DPipes for the sticker.
Thought I'd throw the issue out to the Forum and see if anyone else has had this issue and how they got around it.
Quote from: schalacker on February 18, 2014, 01:35:54 PM
So i just went for an inspection sticker in my emissions-friendly state (Mass) and got notified of rejection based on "OBD Readiness Monitor Results." I am currently running a 2013 PP SHO w/ LMS Cat'd Downpipes and their 93-octane tune.
I've contacted Anthony over at LMS who has told me i need to return to Stock programming as the downpipe tune bypasses the O2 sensors. Obviously i would like to avoid replacing my DPipes for the sticker.
Thought I'd throw the issue out to the Forum and see if anyone else has had this issue and how they got around it.
In Arizona they check OBD2 as a "readiness" check and will fail a car for any abnormals reported to the machine. Going back
to stock reverses these and the machine reads it as OK.
Hope this helps... 15 min to fix.... 15 min to get back after.
Quote from: schalacker on February 18, 2014, 01:35:54 PM
So i just went for an inspection sticker in my emissions-friendly state (Mass) and got notified of rejection based on "OBD Readiness Monitor Results." I am currently running a 2013 PP SHO w/ LMS Cat'd Downpipes and their 93-octane tune.
I've contacted Anthony over at LMS who has told me i need to return to Stock programming as the downpipe tune bypasses the O2 sensors. Obviously i would like to avoid replacing my DPipes for the sticker.
Thought I'd throw the issue out to the Forum and see if anyone else has had this issue and how they got around it.
Here's your choices:
1. Go back to stock pipes and tune and drive around until all readiness checks are passed.
2. Buy PPE downpipes and have LMS update the tune to turn the O2 back on.
I hate to tell you the 2nd option but they're the only DP I know of that don't throw readiness codes.
Quote from: BiGMaC on February 18, 2014, 01:48:52 PM
Quote from: schalacker on February 18, 2014, 01:35:54 PM
So i just went for an inspection sticker in my emissions-friendly state (Mass) and got notified of rejection based on "OBD Readiness Monitor Results." I am currently running a 2013 PP SHO w/ LMS Cat'd Downpipes and their 93-octane tune.
I've contacted Anthony over at LMS who has told me i need to return to Stock programming as the downpipe tune bypasses the O2 sensors. Obviously i would like to avoid replacing my DPipes for the sticker.
Thought I'd throw the issue out to the Forum and see if anyone else has had this issue and how they got around it.
In Arizona they check OBD2 as a "readiness" check and will fail a car for any abnormals reported to the machine. Going back
to stock reverses these and the machine reads it as OK.
Hope this helps... 15 min to fix.... 15 min to get back after.
This is incorrect unfortunately.
You need to go back to stock or have a pipe that will pass the rear O2 readiness check. If you go back to stock with those LMS downpipes you'll throw a code like Tom did with the catless pipes. BTW, if you do put your stock pipes back on and either have an updated tune from LMS with rear O2 enabled or go with stock tune you'll need to drive around for an hour + to get to readiness pass state in your car's ECU.
Some info on this:
http://repairpal.com/drive-cycle-emissions-readiness-monitors (http://repairpal.com/drive-cycle-emissions-readiness-monitors)
Can you run an anti-fouler on the rear O2 sensors so they don't throw a code on the stock tune? Had luck with this on other cars.
Quote from: schalacker on February 18, 2014, 01:35:54 PMSo I just went for an inspection sticker in my emissions-friendly state (Mass) and got notified of rejection based on "OBD Readiness Monitor Results."
I am currently running a 2013 PP SHO w/ LMS Cat'd Downpipes and their 93-octane tune.
I've contacted Anthony over at LMS who has told me I need to return to Stock programming as the downpipe tune bypasses the O2 sensors.
Obviously I would like to avoid replacing my D-Pipes for the sticker.
Thought I'd throw the issue out to the Forum and see if anyone else has had this issue and how they got around it.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on February 18, 2014, 01:54:44 PM
Here's your choices:
1. Go back to stock pipes and tune and drive around until all readiness checks are passed.
2. Buy PPE downpipes and have LMS update the tune to turn the O2 back on.
4DR is correct on this......
No way around it really, unless you follow the suggestions provided.
Hopefully you saved your original factory (catted) DP's.
I guess that's a little bit of the confusion on my part.
The Cat'd LMS downpipes have O2 sensor brackets and the sensors are installed on my vehicle. I guess i'm confused on why the O2 mounts are installed on the DPipes if the tune just wipes them from the OBD system. Do the O2 sensor still provide feedback data to the ECU (ie for A/F reasons) even if they are "deleted" from the OBD system? A little new to the tuning world so sorry if this is an obvious question.
How is the setup different on Cat'd LMS pipes versus the Cat'd PPE pipes? Do they have widely different diameters? Does the diameter of the 2 different d-pipes reflect differing exhaust volumes going past the O2 sensors?
Thanks for all the feedback.
And yes, i do still have my stock exhaust and DP system hanging in the rafters of the garage :)
Again, just seeing if it's a necessity to reinstall the stock d-pipes just for the sticker.
Quote from: schalacker on February 18, 2014, 05:32:51 PM
I guess that's a little bit of the confusion on my part.
The Cat'd LMS downpipes have O2 sensor brackets and the sensors are installed on my vehicle. I guess i'm confused on why the O2 mounts are installed on the DPipes if the tune just wipes them from the OBD system. Do the O2 sensor still provide feedback data to the ECU (ie for A/F reasons) even if they are "deleted" from the OBD system? A little new to the tuning world so sorry if this is an obvious question.
How is the setup different on Cat'd LMS pipes versus the Cat'd PPE pipes? Do they have widely different diameters? Does the diameter of the 2 different d-pipes reflect differing exhaust volumes going past the O2 sensors?
Thanks for all the feedback.
The cats on the Livernois don't pass emissions, the cats on the PPE pipes do. The Livernois pipes will pass a visual inspection but they know they'll throw a code so when you buy the pipes and a tune they just automatically send you a tune with the rear O2 programmed out from my understanding. Anybody who has bought just the pipes throw the rear O2 code and a dash light, this is why you have to program out the checking of readiness of rear O2 systems.
:)
You're going to have to reinstall the stock d-pipes and go back to stock tune.
That's good info to know because if I'm going to buy a Catted DP it better pass emissions or I'm going with a no cat version.
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Man .... I sure am glad I don't have to deal with emissions testing .
rear O2 do not monitor A/F they monitor cats performance. Fronts monitor A/F mixture.
Wow that kinda blows.....LMS cannot adjust the tune to provide a false reading?
Quote from: REDSHOCGO on February 18, 2014, 06:30:08 PM
Wow that kinda blows.....LMS cannot adjust the tune to provide a false reading?
Ive heard of some kind of device that you can plug in to the o2's to make them act ready.
Quote from: REDSHOCGO on February 18, 2014, 06:30:08 PM
Wow that kinda blows.....LMS cannot adjust the tune to provide a false reading?
It's a readiness check the O2 has to be read and react to varying conditions. Nobody has figured it out that I know of other than a rumor of a plug in box that will do it BUT if they are ever caught selling them it's HUGE HUGE fine.
The old O2 foulers people used to use in the 90's don't work anymore from my understanding either.
You can try this:
http://www.355nation.net/forum/how-performance-maintenance/401-how-install-o2-sensor-non-fouler-eliminate-check-engine-light-pics.html (http://www.355nation.net/forum/how-performance-maintenance/401-how-install-o2-sensor-non-fouler-eliminate-check-engine-light-pics.html)
I know my subie friend "lord forbid" said that some tuners can adjust the tune to make them look ready.Not sure how correct he was just figured i'd chime in
perhaps LMS could devise a tune that could be used to get the car to pass the test.
would hurt to ask.. would save alot of people time and possibly increase sales on their DP's :beer2:
Quote from: crash712us on February 18, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
perhaps LMS could devise a tune that could be used to get the car to pass the test.
You can't tune to make readiness work, sorry it can't happen. Only way is to include better cats. :)
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on February 18, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
Quote from: crash712us on February 18, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
perhaps LMS could devise a tune that could be used to get the car to pass the test.
You can't tune to make readiness work, sorry it can't happen. Only way is to include better cats. :)
I wasn't trying to say they could. I understand how readiness works I think. I know the car will have to be returned to stock, and driven and have certain amount of key cycles to achieve readiness. LMS catted DP's don't throw codes immediately I believe when they 1st offer them people didn't start throwing up codes right away.
But it maybe just possible to return to stock and baby the car so it doesn't throw a code long enough to get it to pass.
But if not I'd give these a try before I'd start swapping DP's
http://o2-simulators.com/?gclid=CI2mpbTu1rwCFatcMgod5mAAfw (http://o2-simulators.com/?gclid=CI2mpbTu1rwCFatcMgod5mAAfw)
Quote from: crash712us on February 18, 2014, 06:59:36 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on February 18, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
Quote from: crash712us on February 18, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
perhaps LMS could devise a tune that could be used to get the car to pass the test.
You can't tune to make readiness work, sorry it can't happen. Only way is to include better cats. :)
I wasn't trying to say they could. I understand how readiness works I think. I know the car will have to be returned to stock, and driven and have certain amount of key cycles to achieve readiness. LMS catted DP's don't throw codes immediately I believe when they 1st offer them people didn't start throwing up codes right away.
But it maybe just possible to return to stock and baby the car so it doesn't throw a code long enough to get it to pass.
But if not I'd give these a try before I'd start swapping DP's
http://o2-simulators.com/?gclid=CI2mpbTu1rwCFatcMgod5mAAfw (http://o2-simulators.com/?gclid=CI2mpbTu1rwCFatcMgod5mAAfw)
The code is what happens after it tries to go through the readiness check and realizes the cat isn't working to 100% efficiency. :)
I know when I had my speed 3 couple guys figured out which wire to soder a diode into and it would kick the false reading to trick the ecu. Could google that and do a little digging.
Quote from: 1slo5ohh on February 18, 2014, 07:12:26 PM
I know when I had my speed 3 couple guys figured out which wire to soder a diode into and it would kick the false reading to trick the ecu. Could google that and do a little digging.
I say , were there is a will there is a way .... A knowledgeable programmer/ automotive electrical engineer COULD do this .... the average joe cannot .. its all wrapped up in code .
Quote from: 1slo5ohh on February 18, 2014, 07:12:26 PM
I know when I had my speed 3 couple guys figured out which wire to soder a diode into and it would kick the false reading to trick the ecu. Could google that and do a little digging.
I did that too on my speed 6 when I did catless downpipe, won't work on these I'm afraid. :)
Please try though, I could be wrong but the new O2 aren't just a resistance it's an actual feedback loop now from my understanding.
Did some reaserch, maybe this will work:
http://www.o2simulator.com (http://www.o2simulator.com)
$150 for 2 (required) so it's cheaper for new purchase to just get downpipes with cats that pass readiness checks. :)
Quote from: SwampRat on February 18, 2014, 06:19:35 PM
Man .... I sure am glad I don't have to deal with emissions testing .
Amen to that brother...and THAT is why there is a set of NON-catted DP's in my very near future :drive: :ford:
the O2 foulers are hit or miss. depends on length, etc. Worked on my Evo X MR. But again, not 100%
I'm going to go with replacing the stock dpipes and tune and go for a re-test.
If this has to be an annual thing and if there's any interest, i might as well put the LMS dpipes up for sale and switch over to PPE Cat'd pipes.
Thanks all for the help. Love living in an emissions friendly state!
Quote from: schalacker on February 19, 2014, 07:18:25 PM
I'm going to go with replacing the stock dpipes and tune and go for a re-test.
If this has to be an annual thing and if there's any interest, i might as well put the LMS dpipes up for sale and switch over to PPE Cat'd pipes.
Thanks all for the help.
If you go that way you won't regret the PPE pipes. I'll attest that the catted version does not throw a code in '13 SHO after almost a week. So it shouldn't in anything it fits. Just to be impartial there is at least rumor that LMS may be going to the same Magnaflow cat to avoid CELs and perhaps EPA sanctions.
Does anyone know if the non catted DP's will fail Illinois emissions standards? Soem guys with Evos were saying that the downpipes they had were non catted and were tuned out o2 sensor and passed emissions if thats the case ill go non catted
Quote from: schalacker on February 19, 2014, 07:18:25 PM
I'm going to go with replacing the stock dpipes and tune and go for a re-test.
If this has to be an annual thing and if there's any interest, i might as well put the LMS dpipes up for sale and switch over to PPE Cat'd pipes.
Thanks all for the help. Love living in an emissions friendly state!
or buy yours :)
Quote from: REDSHOCGO on February 20, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Does anyone know if the non catted DP's will fail Illinois emissions standards? Soem guys with Evos were saying that the downpipes they had were non catted and were tuned out o2 sensor and passed emissions if thats the case ill go non catted
Google Illinois emissions and read up for your state :)
Just says OBD test. So I googled if peopel have passed and it seems soem have by tuning out their o2 sensor as they do a readiness check. No visual ect. I just wanna make sure before I make a purchase on something.
Quote from: REDSHOCGO on February 20, 2014, 06:56:24 PM
Just says OBD test. So I googled if peopel have passed and it seems soem have by tuning out their o2 sensor as they do a readiness check. No visual ect. I just wanna make sure before I make a purchase on something.
How is the OBD test performed?
The OBD test consists of connecting a scan tool to a vehicle's on-board computer to determine the OBD system status (readiness checks), to determine whether the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) is commanded to be illuminated, and to retrieve any stored diagnostic trouble codes.
Vehicles will pass the OBD test if the OBD system is working, all required emissions system readiness checks have been completed, and the MIL is not commanded to be illuminated.
Vehicles will fail the OBD test if the MIL is commanded to be illuminated and diagnostic codes are present. Vehicles will also fail if the OBD system is inoperable or if the OBD connector is missing, damaged, or inaccessible.
You will fail if you don't have emissions readiness checks passing.
http://www.epa.state.il.us/air/vim/about.html (http://www.epa.state.il.us/air/vim/about.html)
So if the o2 sensor is tunes out it essentially will be non existent to the test and the overall test will pass as ready?
Quote from: REDSHOCGO on February 20, 2014, 07:27:30 PM
So if the o2 sensor is tunes out it essentially will be non existent to the test and the overall test will pass as ready?
No you will fail readiness, it checks for the rear O2's and makes sure they are there. If they are tuned out they never come ready.
If you use a tuner or other similar method, and the device is able to disable MIL codes, it is simply removing the trigger to illuminate the MIL. But, as stated, you'll still have a not ready present for emissions testers.
I learned that the hard way.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
No emissions in Florida, but the stage 1 flash for my VW would throw CEL without O2 sensor spacer on catless downpipe. Stage 2 deletes second O2 sensor and car always passes readiness when I scan it.
Sorry - a little foggy on all this, but my question is - are all my 02s on and functioning?
The last tune I installed from LMS was for Meth, then I installed PPE downpipes w/cats. I called LMS and asked if I need a new tune for D/P's and they said if I'm not throwing codes I'm good to go
Quote from: Mikesb on February 28, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Sorry - a little foggy on all this, but my question is - are all my 02s on and functioning?
The last tune I installed from LMS was for Meth, then I installed PPE downpipes w/cats. I called LMS and asked if I need a new tune for D/P's and they said if I'm not throwing codes I'm good to go
If you installed PPE downpipes with cats you shouldn't be throwing a code. Does your tune have the rear O2 turned off, no idea but you can go to any Checker/Auto Zone, they have scan tools and have them check if all your readiness checks are passed.
As info: readiness can be achieved on the 13 SHO with 20 minutes spent at highway speed, 15 minutes stop and go with 3 or more periods of 30 seconds plus at idle.
I went through this several times trying to get through TN emissions testing. I may have the highway and stop and go time flip flopped. I did all my idle times in "P" for park and went at least 2 minutes each time.
I did return to stock before I did the drive cycle and passed emissions but immediately following went back to the Livernois tune and have not thrown any codes since. I has been several months now.
I learned that after clearing the codes then performing the drive cycle they will come back in if nothing was done to correct the issue.
Courier6 is right... called a driving cycle in the manual... it does sometimes take 40-50 min... but if the downpipe adjustment LMS made...as commonly is done... was to turn off the third O2 sensor as 4DR suggests might be the case, it will still fail readiness because it will be reported on the machine as a malfunction in the emissions controls... so be sure all the O2 sensors are working.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on February 28, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
Quote from: Mikesb on February 28, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Sorry - a little foggy on all this, but my question is - are all my 02s on and functioning?
The last tune I installed from LMS was for Meth, then I installed PPE downpipes w/cats. I called LMS and asked if I need a new tune for D/P's and they said if I'm not throwing codes I'm good to go
If you installed PPE downpipes with cats you shouldn't be throwing a code. Does your tune have the rear O2 turned off, no idea but you can go to any Checker/Auto Zone, they have scan tools and have them check if all your readiness checks are passed.
Torque Pro will display that data also.
Just as an update to this thread:
LMS Cat'd pipes were replaced with Stock units. LMS 93 tune was put back to Stock tune. Drive-cycle was completed (~100 miles or so).
Went to the inspection station and passed. No issues.
Since this would end up being an annual DP-swap, i'm going to put the LMS-Cat'd units up for sale. PM me if interested.
Thanks again for all the help.
Maybe LMS can take them in trade for their updated emissions-friendly pipes? For a reasonable cost?
Quote from: schalacker on March 19, 2014, 03:45:19 PM
Just as an update to this thread:
LMS Cat'd pipes were replaced with Stock units. LMS 93 tune was put back to Stock tune. Drive-cycle was completed (~100 miles or so).
Went to the inspection station and passed. No issues.
Since this would end up being an annual DP-swap, i'm going to put the LMS-Cat'd units up for sale. PM me if interested.
Thanks again for all the help.
I would contact LMS about replacing yours with the new ones they anonced on this forum with the better cats on them.
I am sure we could work something out for those of our customers wanting to move to the new units. Being we were first to market by a long, long time we had our downpipes out before these newer cats were even in their prototype phase. Now that they're available we already made them a free upgrade, not only making our downpipes more affordable than anyone's, but also including the much costlier cat's as part of that.
Any customer's that have our older downpipes I am sure we can work something out to get you a fair deal on the new parts if someone wanted to upgrade.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on February 18, 2014, 05:50:06 PM
The cats on the Livernois don't pass emissions, the cats on the PPE pipes do. The Livernois pipes will pass a visual inspection but they know they'll throw a code so when you buy the pipes and a tune they just automatically send you a tune with the rear O2 programmed out from my understanding. Anybody who has bought just the pipes throw the rear O2 code and a dash light, this is why you have to program out the checking of readiness of rear O2 systems.
:)
You're going to have to reinstall the stock d-pipes and go back to stock tune.
This actually is not true as far as our downpipes go. I know you had a discussion with us about our downpipes and cats last week so I am troubled that you would continue posting inaccurate information about our products after talking with us on the phone about them. I am not certain what the motiviation is behind this.
I have my fingers crossed that with the new cats on the LMS downpipes, any issues with emissions testing will be history!
Any Forum members have the new ones yet ?
Mine are on order and should be here soon.....
Quote from: SwampRat on March 19, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Any Forum members have the new ones yet ?
While I don't know if anyone on here specifically has them the SHO pipes were changed months ago (we just took a while to post) so there is a potential as we sell a good deal of these.
Quote from: bigmoneycloser on March 19, 2014, 07:56:36 PM
Mine are on order and should be here soon.....
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 19, 2014, 08:02:31 PM
Quote from: SwampRat on March 19, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Any Forum members have the new ones yet ?
While I don't know if anyone on here specifically has them the SHO pipes were changed months ago (we just took a while to post) so there is a potential as we sell a good deal of these.
In AZ, for most cars only the readiness test and maybe visual inspection will be required. The latter is not frequent. So as long as the last O2 sensor is on for the emissions testing they'd likely pass and if the cats are present a pass is almost certain.
All i can say is that my LMS Cat'd pipes were ordered and installed at this time last year. The tune files sent by LMS reflected my modifications (Airaid CAI, Corsa Exhaust, etc.). When i went to get the inspection, that's when everything came together.
Granted i knew nothing regarding OBD2 readiness as part of Mass emissions testing and was not aware that the LMS tune shut off the rear O2 sensor with Cat'd pipes. It's been a learning curve.
If there have been new LMS Cat'd pipes produced that will enable me to keep the rear O2 sensors on (via a new set of LMS tune files) and thus pass Mass emissions on a regular basis, obviously i would prefer that option. I will contact LMS to confirm that this will work. If not, i may be looking to PPE for new pipes to pass Mass emissions testing without annual DP swaps.
Quote from: schalacker on March 20, 2014, 09:29:47 AM
All i can say is that my LMS Cat'd pipes were ordered and installed at this time last year. The tune files sent by LMS reflected my modifications (Airaid CAI, Corsa Exhaust, etc.). When i went to get the inspection, that's when everything came together.
Granted i knew nothing regarding OBD2 readiness as part of Mass emissions testing and was not aware that the LMS tune shut off the rear O2 sensor with Cat'd pipes. It's been a learning curve.
If there have been new LMS Cat'd pipes produced that will enable me to keep the rear O2 sensors on (via a new set of LMS tune files) and thus pass Mass emissions on a regular basis, obviously i would prefer that option. I will contact LMS to confirm that this will work. If not, i may be looking to PPE for new pipes to pass Mass emissions testing without annual DP swaps.
Sounds like a plan. I have catted PPE downpipes... which also use the largest possible Magnaflow cats.... with stock tune in a 2013 SHO they do not cause the car throw a CEL.
Same pipes without cats of course did during the testing we did.... although it takes 20-30- minutes to appear.
The combo you want to pass emission is O2 sensors (and all emissions components) turned on and no CELs however you get there