Is the Sho the new Vette? I'm starting to wonder if we are falling victim to the vette tax on performance mods. I recently emailed Livernois to get a quote on getting the meth kit installed. While I would love to pick up a half second in the quarter, I don't think its worth 3500. Anyone else find this extreme?
Their installations are usually pretty high.
Yes, it's true their installation are very expensive. That said, since it was too far anyways for me to go there, I had the kit delivered home and hired a speed shop that are experienced with snow kits (water-meth) installs. It took them 20 hours!
We are victims of owning a SHO that nobody has experience with. So it is always new territory.
So 20 hours at 75$ per hour, it cost me 1500$ for install and 900$ for the kit, so a total of 2400$, still 1100$ cheaper than Livernois.
I would think that Livernois, that are now used to do the install on a SHO, could do it in less than 10 hours. That means that they are charging more than 250$ an hour... too expensive indeed.
But some are willing to pay that much to have peace of mind...
If it costs that much to install meth and is not DIY, looks like my money will go towards upgraded turbos instead.
Don't know how different this would be for the '13+, but here is a writeup posted by BPD quite some time ago for reference:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=524 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=524)
I am sure if you were willing to put in some assistant-type labor with the trusted mechanic, you could shave some buckaroos off the final cost.
THe meth is new hp territory, but I agree with SRT.... At those prices i'd upgrade turbos first. Get 50-53mm impellers.
$3500 is outrageous.
I had Bob Kurgan install a meth kit and tune it for much less than that on my 03 Cobra.
The meth kit is a very basic install. Time consuming for 1st timers, but very basic. You install a pump and reservoir, run the lines, tap the intake, test the flow and any window/rpm switches and then work the tune. If anything the custom tune should be what costs the most.
Torrie's system can be installed in a couple hours. I was the "test dummy" for doing it and even with all my trials, the first time I probably had less than 5 hrs. Having removed and installed it a couple times now, I estimate I can do it in under 90 minutes. With Alky Control system Livernois sells, they mount the pump low in the drivers side front that requires the front clip to be removed. The reason for mounting location is for pump to be lower than both the bottom of the tank and the spray nozzle. This is done so that the pump is primed by gravity, and therefore eliminates the remote possibility that the pump won't immediately deliver methanol spray.
Personally, it is my opinion that it is more likely for the boost controller to fail or glitch than it is that the pump won't remain primed, especially if one installs a check valve in the flow line, and always tests it before making WOT runs that are blocks long.
Only issue with an on-off max spray pump is that it causes a rich condition at RPM under 4K, which is very little of the time you have your foot to the floor, except if you are on a dyno, which will cause the HP and Torque Dyno' readings to be low.
'
Not sure if 4DR found an interested party, but Julio at Alky Control is looking for a EB car to create a kit for 4DR to sell. Cost is $700. if I remember correctly... FREE INSTALL!!! Check with 4DR Mike... Great deal if you want the same basic system that Livernois offers, only less money!!!!! Alky Control is located in Tampa, FL area.
Quote from: SRT82ECOBOOST on November 20, 2013, 03:13:58 PM
If it costs that much to install meth and is not DIY, looks like my money will go towards upgraded turbos instead.
I install it about 25hrs by myself at my brothers in-laws shop. If you have a good gargage at home you can DIY. And I'm just a electrician not a auto mech.
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_18_08_13_12_32_10.jpeg)
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_18_08_13_12_22_27.jpeg)
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_25_08_13_6_19_08.jpeg)
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on November 20, 2013, 05:56:02 PM
Not sure if 4DR found an interested party, but Julio at Alky Control is looking for a EB car to create a kit for 4DR to sell. Cost is $700. if I remember correctly... FREE INSTALL!!! Check with 4DR Mike... Great deal if you want the same basic system that Livernois offers, only less money!!!!! Alky Control is located in Tampa, FL area.
Still need somebody to go to his shop so he can install the kit and start selling them directly to us :)
Alkycontrols kit very well put together and very complete. However its is a timely to install, nothing difficult. Just some basic tools and drill. And could be installed in stages, things like drilling holes in meth tank and fittings and level sensor takes about hour. But what I am getting at there at least 3 how to's here, so time is saved in determining where to mount things.
LMS prices seem to have gotten out of hand I believe I was quoted about $2500 a couple years ago. I find it a bit disheartening that they quoted you so much, seeing how they have done numerous times and to someone that has done before could probably do in half the time. I know I could.
Quote from: crash712us on November 20, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
Alkycontrols kit very well put together and very complete. However its is a timely to install, nothing difficult. Just some basic tools and drill. And could be installed in stages, things like drilling holes in meth tank and fittings and level sensor takes about hour. But what I am getting at there at least 3 how to's here, so time is saved in determining where to mount things.
LMS prices seem to have gotten out of hand I believe I was quoted about $2500 a couple years ago. I find it a bit disheartening that they quoted you so much, seeing how they have done numerous times and to someone that has done before could probably do in half the time. I know I could.
Perhaps they work based on a set book time? I have no idea just tossing out the idea. A shop may charge 10 hours but if the guy does it in 5 you still get charged 10 hours.
IIRC.....
Even with multiple interruptions, it took myself & my mechanic less than 10hrs for my meth install.
Hell, we even wired up my gauges during the meth install too.
So it's certainly doable for any of you DIY'ers out there.
I tried to cover as much of every aspect of the install, which is contained in my "How-To" thread on it.
Unlike other opinions, I AM a fan of the boost controller, and am not fearful of it crapping out.
For me, it's a much more preferred method of metering and controlling the methanol, than a simple on/off controller.
But I can't reiterate enough..... that it's SO important to NEVER[/b] run out of Methanol though..... especially when one's running a more aggressive tune file.
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Quote from: bpd1151 on November 20, 2013, 10:39:32 PM
IIRC.....
Even with multiple interruptions, it took myself & my mechanic less than 10hrs for my meth install.
Hell, we even wired up my gauges during the meth install too.
So it's certainly doable for any of you DIY'ers out there.
I tried to cover as much of every aspect of the install, which is contained in my "How-To" thread on it.
Unlike other opinions, I AM a fan of the boost controller, and am not fearful of it crapping out.
For me, it's a much more preferred method of metering and controlling the methanol, than a simple on/off controller.
But I can't reiterate enough..... that it's SO important to NEVER[/b] run out of Methanol though..... especially when one's running a more aggressive tune file.
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bpd is right! His HOW-TO help me the most even over the ALKY how-to. Plus PM HIM doing job. You could do this in your driveway but I did it in a garage because it is HOT HERE IN ATLANTA in Aug. I use my brothers-law shop, Fri and Sat night after they closed and all day Sun. In a weekend I had it in.
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_18_08_13_12_27_11.jpeg)
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_18_08_13_12_28_28.jpeg)
Quote from: crash712us on November 20, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
LMS prices seem to have gotten out of hand I believe I was quoted about $2500 a couple years ago. I find it a bit disheartening that they quoted you so much, seeing how they have done numerous times and to someone that has done before could probably do in half the time. I know I could.
This was my thoughts as well, adding in that my car has been there a couple times already. I simply don't have the time to do it and won't overpay to have it done.
Maybe the dyno tune is included... hopefully.
Did'nt some guy drop almost 11 grand with Livernois and ended up with 400 whp and smoking turbo's? Did they ever resolve this? Not anyplace Id spend money. JMO
I believe they are replacing his seals.
Isn't that SHO now for sale???
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on November 21, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Isn't that SHO now for sale???
It sure is and it it is very reasonable priced.
Quote from: SRT82ECOBOOST on November 21, 2013, 01:23:08 PM
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on November 21, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Isn't that SHO now for sale???
It sure is and it it is very reasonable priced.
It is but so are scratch off lottery tickets. Buyer better being feeling lucky.
I understand it's a "Smokin Deal"...LOL Car is a Looonngg waay from Detroit.
Biggest issue as I see it is the turbos themselves... Are all those modded turbos subject to seal leaks, and how do you know if the new ones will be any better??
While I am aware of some G8 guys who had issues with Livernois installed mods, the vast majority of times, Livernois parts and installation work is first rate.
But back to the OP.
$3500 is categorically highway robbery.
Robbery is an understatement... especially something that there is a write up on, and multiple people have done them selves.
BPD will do it BLINDFOLDED for $3,400. LOL
:rofl:
Ha! That actually made me laugh.
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I was serious... You know you could do it in your sleep!!!
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on November 21, 2013, 11:36:20 PM
BPD will do it BLINDFOLDED for $3,400. LOL
Quote from: bpd1151 on November 22, 2013, 12:39:09 AM
Ha! That actually made me laugh.
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I'll raise it bid and do it for $2500 eyes open.LOL
Perhaps I missed it, but is there any particular reason why tuning with ethanol is not an option? It seems to nullify the necessity for meth, with its excellent cooling properties. 50/50 or less mixtures, with an appropriate tuning solution has worked wonders in the Mazdaspeed community. Or, is the issue lack of fueling capacity on OE equipment with these engines?
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Quote from: IHeartGroceries on November 26, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
Perhaps I missed it, but is there any particular reason why tuning with ethanol is not an option? It seems to nullify the necessity for meth, with its excellent cooling properties. 50/50 or less mixtures, with an appropriate tuning solution has worked wonders in the Mazdaspeed community. Or, is the issue lack of fueling capacity on OE equipment with these engines?
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As there are no fuel systems mods availably to use at the moment as in DI pump or injectors. Ethanol tuning is out as the stock system isn't capable of handling the extra fuel required for ethanol.
A few guys tried pulling a tanker full of E-85 behind their EB vehicles... NO Fueling issues... but found 1/4 mi times suffered tremendously.... 22.86 ET @ 45.93 MPH!!!!!
I just got quoted $850 for kit and install from a reputable shop. Gives you some perspective. lol
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 09, 2013, 05:06:05 PM
I just got quoted $850 for kit and install from a reputable shop. Gives you some perspective. lol
Not sure what kit you're receiving, because even Julio @ Alky Controls wouldn't be letting his meth kits fly off the shelves for free.
Berating a reputable vendor, with an errant, generic, blank statement such as the one you've posted, lends itself to some "perspective".
Rather than being so vague, your information would be more helpful if you would consider posting:
The shop performing the work
The actual kit you plan on purchasing (mfg'er/part #) etc.
The (separate) price for the "kit", as well the labor.
Providing the above may help others help themselves make their own decisions as it relates to their own applications.
:thankyou:
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Agreed! NO reason to DISPARAGE ANYONE... Livernois is an excellent company.. they may charge more than you think is fair... but they are what they are because they know what they know and they know what it costs to do things their way.
However, If one would install a Devils Own kit, complete with tank, controller and braided lines, it probably could be done for that price, provided you didn't have to remove the front clip. If you have a custom CAI like 4DR had or like I have, there is room for the pump below it, and the tank can be installed above pump somewhere inside radiator, and not restrict air flow. It would also take someone who had done this many times...
I might modify Torrie's system to do some or all of this. But.. if you are mostly looking for power for short bursts, or serious strip time, Torrie's system works fine, you just have to make sure it is primed if you are running long wot runs, like at the strip. Honestly, I never saw any time I didn't have spray, but like everything... S...T happens... even with Alky Control controllers that Livernois sells!
Quote from: bpd1151 on December 09, 2013, 06:31:08 PM
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 09, 2013, 05:06:05 PM
I just got quoted $850 for kit and install from a reputable shop. Gives you some perspective. lol
Not sure what kit you're receiving, because even Julio @ Alky Controls wouldn't be letting his meth kits fly off the shelves for free.
Berating a reputable vendor, with an errant, generic, blank statement such as the one you've posted, lends itself to some "perspective".
Rather than being so vague, your information would be more helpful if you would consider posting:
The shop performing the work
The actual kit you plan on purchasing (mfg'er/part #) etc.
The (separate) price for the "kit", as well the labor.
Providing the above may help others help themselves make their own decisions as it relates to their own applications.
:thankyou:
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:clap2:
... And like EBB said
Bob w/ Kurgan Motorsports is one of the most reputable tuners in the country when it comes to FI. And that is where I got the quote.
$3500 is insane pricing and the people on this site should know that.
I'd consider up to $1500 reasonable depending on the setup.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 09, 2013, 08:32:07 PM
Bob w/ Kurgan Motorsports is one of the most reputable tuners in the country when it comes to FI. And that is where I got the quote.
$3500 is insane pricing and the people on this site should know that.
I'd consider up to $1500 reasonable depending on the setup.
'
Whose Kit??? Or does he create his own... No issue with that... It's what I've done with mods to Torries.
No insult intended.. My question was honest... because just as you point out, every one on the site should know.
:alkashi:
Awesome Fast SHO. :ok:
Perhaps others will contact that vendor then.
Do you know what particular meth kit is being utilized?
Also, is it a 100% Methanol Kit, or an end user defined mixed solution? Say like 50/50%?
IIRC, I believe Alky Controls was looking at selling their kits for like in the $700 range. I could be mistaken.
But even with that, your stated price quote of $850 would mean the vendor you cited is theoretically doing the install for $150.....
Which, I'll add, is just as ludicrous, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum.
So just to be clear Fast SHO, no one is questioning any tuner's reputation, and no one is questioning you per se....
But it goes w/o saying that details are helpful.
So thank you for providing your vendor, now please consider supplying the remainder of the suggested information.
It may prove beneficial for all potentially considering this mod for themselves down the road.
Thanks once again.
:thankyou:
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Considering the alky kit cost around 850$. The install by a professional dhould take between 10-20 hours at a rate of 50$-100$ per hour. I paid 20 hours at 75$/hour for a very clean job. I found it a bit long and expensive, but it was their first time.
So for that kit, it should be between 1500$ to 2500$ all included, no more.
Thx!
I misspoke. $850 installed. So you are looking at $1600-1800 for the kit plus install/tune with Bob.
But that is my last post on the subject. $3500 is insane.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 09, 2013, 09:24:08 PM
I misspoke. $850 installed. So you are looking at $1600-1800 for the kit plus install/tune with Bob.
But that is my last post on the subject. $3500 is insane.
In my case, I already had a tune fron LMS and I only want them to tune my car (even if I am sure others are very qualified, LMS have been tuning more than any for at least three years and it was reassuring for me)... So, when I ordered the ally kit from them, even if the kit was installed by someone else, Livernois updated my tune at no cost. So that is another option too.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 09, 2013, 09:24:08 PMI misspoke. $850 installed.
So you are looking at $1600-1800 for the kit, PLUS install/tune with Bob.
But that is my last post on the subject.
$3500 is insane.
So out the door, all totalled, members are potentially looking at outlaying $2,450-$2,650 through the vendor you've cited.
Or $1,800 total (labor & parts combined)? Difficult to decipher as your post isn't clear.
Although collectively, other members may agree with your (repeated) opinions of LMS, the revised amount you've specified is still nothing to sneeze at.....
And a far cry from your initial (implied total) of $850.
Thank you clearing that up, and acknowledging you misspoke.
Good info, is better then no info at all.
You should've just supplied all the particulars to begin with.
In a round about way, you're doing the vendor you cited a disservice by not talking them up from the onset.
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I think this topic has been beaten to death, and discussed well enough.
Therefore, thread closed. :lock: