http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2013-deatschwerks-in-line-fuel-pump-and-gdi-inhjectors/ (http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2013-deatschwerks-in-line-fuel-pump-and-gdi-inhjectors/)
Cliffs: DeatschWerks will be releasing 1700cc injectors (~30% increase) for 3.5 EB engines.
Huge step for us!
Nice find!
There's no pump for them? Making a bigger river with the same amount of water is pointless
Obviously this shows the parts are coming. This is just another piece of the puzzle. You gotta be happy about that.
Even without a pump upgrade, will the fuel system be able to deliver more fuel with these injectors?
We'll see, dealer request SENT! :)
I am not a fluid flow engineer, but I can only speculate that a constant value fuel pressure flows more through a large orifice than a small orifice.
Correct...but if it flows too much for the pump you lose your constant pressure and then end up flowing less than you expect...
I am with you, they don't release injectors, without a pump somewhere near in the future. This is a big break through, the mazdaspeed plat forum has been waiting a long time for bigger injectors, and we got them.
This is a good step towards 500hp, with a just tune and 50/50 E85 with monstrous amounts of torque
Awesome!!! Finally can now run more boost without having to wire in and install meth injection. Less complicated and less of a chance of failure via empty tank/electrical/pump etc.
This is something I will definitely want to get ..... A little leary about the whole meth thing :smiley5:
http://www.deatschwerks.com/products/fuel-injectors/modern-muscle/ford (http://www.deatschwerks.com/products/fuel-injectors/modern-muscle/ford)
3.5 ecoboost NEXT !!
Do we actually know what kind of duty cycle the stock injectors are running at? I'm afraid that we might find out the HPFP is giving up before the injectors are. Larger injectors will flow more at a given pulse width and pressure, but if the pumps are already failing to keep up with stock injectors, then they will only make the problem worse.
Does anyone know if pulse width, injector slope, etc can be logged with Live Link or Torque? If we can log these then we can calculate injector duty cycle based on a given rpm.
I haven't seen anything in Torque to log those...
This is really inspiring. Surely they won't make injectors without a pump. They have to go together. Let's hope this is out around tax time.
My Sport is having issues running the livernois tune via the fuel rail pressure is dropping at 4500rpms then having to rebuild to proper levels. So larger injectors will not help me at this point.
Are there no pumps we could swap in and do a little fab work to make it fit/mate up for a proper install....diesel pump....something?
Quote from: TouchOfEvil on November 14, 2013, 12:52:23 AM
My Sport is having issues running the livernois tune via the fuel rail pressure is dropping at 4500rpms then having to rebuild to proper levels. So larger injectors will not help me at this point.
Are there no pumps we could swap in and do a little fab work to make it fit/mate up for a proper install....diesel pump....something?
Was it a dynotune or email order tune? How are you measuring fuel pressure?
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Quote from: JeffsSport on November 14, 2013, 04:22:45 AM
Quote from: TouchOfEvil on November 14, 2013, 12:52:23 AM
My Sport is having issues running the livernois tune via the fuel rail pressure is dropping at 4500rpms then having to rebuild to proper levels. So larger injectors will not help me at this point.
Are there no pumps we could swap in and do a little fab work to make it fit/mate up for a proper install....diesel pump....something?
Was it a dynotune or email order tune? How are you measuring fuel pressure?
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Email tune, i've ran the 91 v2 and hi boost as well as the 93 v2 and hi boost. All of them have issues. Stock tune the fuel rail sees all the pressure it needs. Obviously stock doesn't require as much fuel because of the lower boost numbers of course.
I'm using torque to monitor the fuel rail pressure. Torque with track recorder so i can play it back after a pull etc.
I started running the 93v7 last 3 days. I am definitely getting more FRP now, and it stays higher longer. I can't say it's flawless, but it is much better than 93v6 in the cold. Once in a while, mostly when engine hasn't fully warm, I get a slight stutter or two, but it's quick and then it's gone. I logged during one of these stutters on 93v7 and FRP dropped, but it recovered almost instantaneously.
Right now there is no tune for me to go to since i have an explorer. My guess on yours is that they lowered the boost a couple degrees. They seem to love extremely rich tunes.
Have you logged your boost along with a/f ratio?
The best I can explain it so far, From what I can see, the max boost is down sometimes to around 13.6 psi or so, although I've seen it go back to 15.3 a few times. 15.3 is what I was getting with 93v6 all the time.
A/F ratio seems to be as low as 10.6, only briefly, but now seems to run 11.1 to 11.3 more under WOT. On WOT, it would jump to 11.1 then sometimes drop quickly to 10.6 or 10.7 then back to 11.1 and up. It's definitely not running in the 10's as much anyway.
I'm using Dashcommand, so I only know how to read in playback mode, which does also record the highs and lows. Hopefully this is some help.
Quote from: JMR76 on November 14, 2013, 11:29:43 PM
The best I can explain it so far, From what I can see, the max boost is down sometimes to around 13.6 psi or so, although I've seen it go back to 15.3 a few times. 15.3 is what I was getting with 93v6 all the time.
A/F ratio seems to be as low as 10.6, only briefly, but now seems to run 11.1 to 11.3 more under WOT. On WOT, it would jump to 11.1 then sometimes drop quickly to 10.6 or 10.7 then back to 11.1 and up. It's definitely not running in the 10's as much anyway.
I'm using Dashcommand, so I only know how to read in playback mode, which does also record the highs and lows. Hopefully this is some help.
It sounds like they leaned it out a little for you. Which is exactly what i asked Anthony to do for me. At times i'm seeing 10.2 " just insane" i think if it were asking for 11.1-11.3 like your tune it would fix the problem or come extremely close. If it didn't then just drop a lb of boost to lower the incoming air a touch and it would be fine.
10.2 is beyound the fuel system not to mention it's leaving power on the table being so rich.
Has anyone checked to see if the F150 HP Pump is higher volume than the one used on the cars?
Has anyone checked the flow rate on the F150 Injectors
Does anyone know what the status is on the injectors? This year it's either meth injection or new injectors going on the car.
Quote from: twnscrw13 on February 07, 2014, 09:19:53 PM
Does anyone know what the status is on the injectors? This year it's either meth injection or new injectors going on the car.
Any One want to tackle this one ?
I say go straight to the Mfg... email and or call them .http://www.deatschwerks.com/ (http://www.deatschwerks.com/)
On second thought maybe I have another project ... There contact info is in OKC , OK .Contact
1745 W. Sheridan Ave.
Oklahoma City, OK 73106
Phone: 1.405.217.0701
Toll-free: 1.800.419.6023
Fax: 1.405.217.0700
Quote from: SwampRat on February 07, 2014, 09:38:59 PM
Quote from: twnscrw13 on February 07, 2014, 09:19:53 PM
Does anyone know what the status is on the injectors? This year it's either meth injection or new injectors going on the car.
Any One want to tackle this one ?
I say go straight to the Mfg... email and or call them .
http://www.deatschwerks.com/ (http://www.deatschwerks.com/)
I sent an email. We'll see what they say.
On second thought maybe I have another project ... There contact info is in OKC , OK .
Contact
1745 W. Sheridan Ave.
Oklahoma City, OK 73106
Phone: 1.405.217.0701
Toll-free: 1.800.419.6023
Fax: 1.405.217.0700
Hi All:
If I am calculating correctly then that would mean the stock injectors are capable of about 1300cc's per minute
I have to assume that BSFC's are still about .5lb per hp hour for gasoline
That would mean that the stock injectors are capable of around 125lbs per hour static flow
If that is the case the stock injectors with a maximum of 80% duty cycle would be capable of producing about 200hp per cylinder.
There must be something awash here.
Typically the factory uses the above formula to calculate maximum injector flow rate requirements.
Surely these stock injectors are not capable of 1300cc per minute?????
Does anyone have the correct static flow specs for the stock injectors?
Deatschwerks is finalizing development of their GDI injectors for Ford EcoBoost engines.
I guess we can thank the Mustang crowd for this .
NEW update from Stang TV on Jan. 21st. 2014
www.stangtv.com/news/deatschwerks-developing-ecoboost-injectors-in-time-for-2015-mustang/ (http://www.stangtv.com/news/deatschwerks-developing-ecoboost-injectors-in-time-for-2015-mustang/)
Quote from article above :
Many talented tuners have already come up with tuning solutions, and the aftermarket has also been releasing parts for EcoBoost powered cars and trucks. The limiting factor up until now has been getting more fuel to the engine. Increasing boost and playing with fuel, timing, and other data within the computer can net more power, but eventually the incoming air charge exceeds the amount of available fuel. There hasn't been a solution to this issue until now, and it comes from Deatschwerks.
4DR Has been saying this for a while now !
We need more than injectors, we need a pump that can flow more too?
That does not require splicing into factory harness.
Quote from: Josephm on February 09, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
We need more than injectors, we need a pump that can flow more too?
That does not require splicing into factory harness.
4DR has the pump issue solved and available.
Unfortunately at this time I dont believe WE can have our cake and eat it too with the splicing issue.
These injectors won't be available until later this year and who knows , by then maybe a plug n play pump settup may become available .
I believe this company also has a in line pump to go with injectors.
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Quote from: crash712us on February 09, 2014, 02:09:55 PM
I believe this company also has a in line pump to go with injectors.
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Not quite yet .... BUT they are working on it.
It think it'll be available about the same time as the injectors . IMHO
Nov. 2013 earlier link on Stang TV about pump and injectors:
www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2013-deatschwerks-in-line-fuel-pump-and-gdi-inhjectors/ (http://www.stangtv.com/features/sema-coverage/sema-2013-deatschwerks-in-line-fuel-pump-and-gdi-inhjectors/)
Kind of wondering, for those that are blending their own concoctions of E85, or for those supplementing with Methanol, how much more of an improvement this will add?
I imagine the combination of all of the offerings collectively, will have a tremendous, positive, outcome!
Pretty exciting would be an understatement!
:clap2:
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Now if we can get someone to upgrade the drive train for all this new found power we will soon have.
now that's exciting !
any speculation on what will be possible with a tune tweak by adding these injectors / pump ?
that being said what about drivetrain weakpoints ?? I dont want to start breaking stuff either....
2013's have more FRP.
We have a different LPFP that is variable and can provide 10 more PSI to the HPFP.
We can run up to around 30 % E-85 tuned before there is an issue.
That info comes from my experiences and (the tuning part) has been confirmed by Mr Torrie.
I am currently at 23.5% (96.5 octane) E-85, logging has shown no dropouts so far and peak PSI is 2600-2700
Now the question has to be asked why some tuned 2013's without E-85 are having FRP issues.
My experiences are in 4dr's "E-85 is Awesome" thread.
My dialogue with Mr Torrie is in Needmoreboost's thread in Mr Torrie's vendor section.
For those that are questioning the need for upgraded injectors for the 3.5 EB this is an excerpt from the article in the link further below .
Sounds like pretty convincing data to me .
Any tuner will tell you that the more data they have on the parts in a particular setup, the better than can tune a car. Deatschwerks spent about a year developing and verifying injector calibration summaries for their entire modern muscle car product line. "When you purchase a set of our injectors, what comes with them–which, in many cases, tuners find more valuable–is the tuning data," says Deatsch.
"All of our modern muscle injectors have plug-and-play tuning data to get set up in your ECU...You can go right to our website, go to the Resources tab, find the GM or Ford calibrations, pick your injector part number, download an Excel spreadsheet, and the copy and paste the injector data you need for tuning right into the ECU tables."
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/ (http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/)
These injectors along with a modified fuel pump , or maybe unlocking the FRP through tuning as hinted at by FoMoCoSho is what is going to make things happen .
Quote from: SwampRat on April 15, 2014, 09:17:51 PM
For those that are questioning the need for upgraded injectors for the 3.5 EB this is an excerpt from the article in the link further below .
Sounds like pretty convincing data to me .
Any tuner will tell you that the more data they have on the parts in a particular setup, the better than can tune a car. Deatschwerks spent about a year developing and verifying injector calibration summaries for their entire modern muscle car product line. "When you purchase a set of our injectors, what comes with them–which, in many cases, tuners find more valuable–is the tuning data," says Deatsch.
"All of our modern muscle injectors have plug-and-play tuning data to get set up in your ECU...You can go right to our website, go to the Resources tab, find the GM or Ford calibrations, pick your injector part number, download an Excel spreadsheet, and the copy and paste the injector data you need for tuning right into the ECU tables."
http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/ (http://www.streetlegaltv.com/features/pri-coverage/pri-2013-deatschwerks-new-gdi-injectors-and-calibration-summaries/)
These injectors along with a modified fuel pump , or maybe unlocking the FRP through tuning as hinted at by FoMoCoSho is what is going to make things happen .
....
Quote from: 68_GT on April 15, 2014, 09:37:14 PM
how much added capacity ~30 % ? I'm curious at to what our current tunes could do with these, or if these will be enough to support 100% E85 ?
Not sure about E85 , but 25 % more capacity .
Tunes will have to be modified .
I wonder what all the capabilities will be with these injectors ?!
More boost ?!
maybe dry NOS shot :)
less mpg lol
Problem is you will see the pressure drop on the rail even faster with bigger injectors at WOT if you were tunning to try and take advantage of the extra headroom.
Quote from: panther427 on April 15, 2014, 10:58:44 PM
Problem is you will see the pressure drop on the rail even faster with bigger injectors at WOT if you were tunning to try and take advantage of the extra headro om.
Increase the rail pressure , someone will figure out a way .