First let me say I am new to performance upgrades and tuning vehicles. I have a '12 F150 Ecoboost and had been wanting to install some upgrades to tap into the power the Ecoboost engine can offer.
After doing some research and talking extensively to a coworker of mine who lives and breathes Ford racing (Specifically working on any one of his 3 Mustangs) I decided to go with Livernois. I bought their "stage 2+" package which includes high flow air intake, new modular intake tube, new thermostat and CATTED DOWNPIPES.
This idea originally came to mind because my factory driver side cat was no longer functioning and I needed to replace my downpipes so I decided I may as well upgrade!
Come to find out my factory cat had gone bad because I had a misfire in cylinder 1; I installed the Livernois components with a new coil for cylinder 1 and all 6 new spark plugs and everything was running great.
Then it came time for my state inspection. I already had several hundred miles on the truck after the repair and install so I took it to the local state inspection shop and it failed because the catalyst and O2 sensors were "not ready". After calling Livernois I learned that they turn off the rear O2 sensors in their tune so they will never reach the "ready" state.
What blows my mind is why would an aftermarket manufacturer sell a catted downpipe if they're going to bypass the rear O2 sensor? There were no disclaimers or statements on the Livernois website and I even called and spoke with someone before ordering the parts and it never came up. Shame on me for not asking the right question but that still pisses me off they would offer/sell a catted down pipe that won't pass inspection requirements.
I've also done some more digging and found out that the latest and greatest tunes keep the rear O2 sensor activated because it calibrates the front O2 sensor. Livernois does not do this and it seems they are behind the times in the tuning world. Reference: https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/rear-o2-sensors-necessary-or-not-the-definitive-answer-inside.1122899/ (https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/rear-o2-sensors-necessary-or-not-the-definitive-answer-inside.1122899/)
All that being said the performance has been great on the truck but not happy I'm having to deal with figuring out a solution to get my truck to pass inspection with brand new parts and tune installed.
Don't make the same mistake I did - buy catted downpipes and a tune that takes into account passing the state inspection.
I've already called Livernois to request that they turn on the rear O2 sensors but "it can't be done". I asked if I could just installed the stock tune to pass inspection and was told the cats will trigger the O2 sensor and my check engine light will come on. The only "solution" that was offered was to reinstall the factory catted downpipes and stock tune.
Any suggestions?
Seems there is quite some misinformation floating around here. You can always return to factory tune even on AM downpipes for emissions testing purposes. This is what most people do. Plus you have to perform the inspections readiness cycle before testing. It can take 200 miles, more sometimes. You can easily check if your vehicle is ready with a key sequence specified in the owners manual.
As far as the rear O2, LME will do what you ask them to do. I dont know who you talked with, but they are hardly inflexible. Ask 4 Anthony.
For the SHO PPE catted downpipes are the only ones known to pass inspection. You may be able to check with Full Race for your F150 since they do a lot with the F150 platform?
Unfortunately though, you will realistically need to go back to stock pipes and/or stock tune OR get a different tuner if they won't budge on turning back rear O2s back on. Any upgrade to catalytic converts can cause issues with emissions readiness unfortunately and each tuner goes about it differently.
You should also note that even though they are catted, there are two types of high flow cats generally, the type that looks like a catalytic converter but does not actually do anything, and the type that actually work as a catalytic converter. Depending on the manufactuer they may use either type.
Shodded - I am attempting that first. I'll let you know in a couple of days if it works or not. I had spoken to Matt and was told they couldn't be turned back on. Maybe I'll call Anthony if going back to stock tune doesn't do the trick.
I guess I'll know if they are actually converters or if they just look like it after driving around for a couple of days derfdog.
Thank you both for the suggestions.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
And if you like, post an intro for yourself here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html)
Still trying to figure out the reason for turning off the rear 02's with catted pipes...maybe they were hoping that you lived in a state where just a visual was required instead of an OBD test and turning off the rear 02's guaranteed them you wouldnt pester them with P0420/P0430 codes if the catted pipes aren't an efficient enough catalyst
You could've just got catless pipes and saved money if your rear 02's werent going to be on
Welcome aboard Kcope2006 and honestly had a similar experience as you did a few year's back but this was with Stage 3 M.S and no where on there site did it say that there catted DP were for off road use only and bit the bullet and later went with the PPE catted DP from www.ecopowerparts.com (http://www.ecopowerparts.com) and IMHO couldn't be happier especially if your state requires I/M readiness testing.
I would say that LMS does disclose that there catted DP are not EPA approved and as such they are for off road use only. and best of luck to ya. Z
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP101113 (http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP101113)
You could try extenders on the rear O2's some have had success with them.
Quote from: Heelfan1 on January 16, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
You could try extenders on the rear O2's some have had success with them.
Not on this car they haven't...they wont work
Car or truck or either?
I definitely want to clear some things up in here. Firstly, I apologize that you feel that there was some misinformation, but our website, and posts, clearly state that downpipes are not EPA approved, and not legal for on road use. Secondly, any, and I do mean ANY downpipe for these trucks, cars, and anything or than the actual OEM unit is NOT legal. Anyone marketing them as such are actually the ones doing the misleading. Unfortunately many people think that just by having, or not having a check engine light means something is good. Unfortunately, it is not. Being we have put products of ours through the CARB cert process, we are speaking from experience. If it's truly legal, it will have an EO. If someone tells you it's legal, and doesn't have an EO to back it up, then, well, it's simply not. Additionally, any tune that decides to try to "cheat" by adjusting the tune to not throw a fault are breaking some serious laws, something we will not do. If someone chooses to make their vehicle "off-road/race use only" then they need to own up to that decision. But, again, to recap, there is not a single, legal, aftermarket downpipe for any ecoboost platform.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 18, 2017, 09:12:34 AM
I definitely want to clear some things up in here. Firstly, I apologize that you feel that there was some misinformation, but our website, and posts, clearly state that downpipes are not EPA approved, and not legal for on road use. Secondly, any, and I do mean ANY downpipe for these trucks, cars, and anything or than the actual OEM unit is NOT legal. Anyone marketing them as such are actually the ones doing the misleading. Unfortunately many people think that just by having, or not having a check engine light means something is good. Unfortunately, it is not. Being we have put products of ours through the CARB cert process, we are speaking from experience. If it's truly legal, it will have an EO. If someone tells you it's legal, and doesn't have an EO to back it up, then, well, it's simply not. Additionally, any tune that decides to try to "cheat" by adjusting the tune to not throw a fault are breaking some serious laws, something we will not do. If someone chooses to make their vehicle "off-road/race use only" then they need to own up to that decision. But, again, to recap, there is not a single, legal, aftermarket downpipe for any ecoboost platform.
No offense to you guys at all, but LEGAL vs. Pass Inspection are two different aspects. Also, unless the part is being used in California, no CARB EO number is needed, that means it passes California Emissions, which are more stringent of a standard. Some states do just a visual inspection, meaning that your downpipes, or any with catalytic converters in place, would pass just fine (where-as my catless downpipes, or any catless set up would not). Other states base the test on the readiness of the OBDII emissions system, which CAN be in a "ready" state, even with aftermarket downpipes (Example, PPE downpipes on the SHO/Flex, they pass state inspections that check readiness).
Again, you are very correct that unless the part has been certified through EPA emissions cycles, and demod through testing for the EPA/ ARB boards, then they are still technically illegal. But I believe OP is looking to pass inspection, which some systems can do (I have a SHO, so I do not know if there is a downpipe for the F150 that will pass a readiness inspection)
As always though, thank you for chiming in, and I am sure you guys will do your best to take care of the OP.
In our view it's really not different. You have Legal vs. illegal and not caught vs. illegal and caught. It really boils down to that. if someone wants to break laws, that's on them. But I promise you, if they took a "passed" inspection from downpipes to the EPA it would be thrown out immediately, and I think people need to know that. We've had customers get burned by this just moving from counties that did OBD and then going to one that does sniffer tests with other companies products, the new county couldn't care less that they had a "passed" inspection from the other county. It failed their sniffer, even with no lights on. And, while not every state is California, I think there are 16 states that follow CARB standards. so it's not just 1 or 2.
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Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 18, 2017, 09:52:24 AM
In our view it's really not different. You have Legal vs. illegal and not caught vs. illegal and caught. It really boils down to that. if someone wants to break laws, that's on them. But I promise you, if they took a "passed" inspection from downpipes to the EPA it would be thrown out immediately, and I think people need to know that. We've had customers get burned by this just moving from counties that did OBD and then going to one that does sniffer tests with other companies products, the new county couldn't care less that they had a "passed" inspection from the other county. It failed their sniffer, even with no lights on. And, while not every state is California, I think there are 16 states that follow CARB standards. so it's not just 1 or 2.
Thanks for the response, I agree that you guys are correct as far as it tempting fate to run anything other than OEM on a street car, and that the EPA wouldn't care if it passes readiness or not if it does not actually pass their regulatory standards. That said, and as you are well aware, there are MANY people on MANY platforms that run catless or high performance catted pipes because of the gains that can be had. I think the main concern in this thread is why OPs rear O2s are off (or if he was mis-informed), and if you guys can correct it (atleast as far as rear O2s on/talking to OP and working with him).
I respect your opinion here, and whole-heartedly agree running non OEM pipes leaves room for issues no matter who the pipes are from, specifically with EPA regulations.
I hope OP can get it resolved in a manner that is satisfactory to him.
I see the OP has not been active for the last couple of days and would advise him or she to contact LME directly with any questions/concern's they may have and speak with Anthony .Z
info@livernoismotorsports.com or tuning@livernoismotorsports.com
Sorry I was out of town yesterday for a meeting.
I tried going back to the factory tune but as soon as the truck completed the drive cycle the P0420/P0430 DTC's were triggered.
I appreciate LMS chiming in. I understand your viewpoint but I'm still confused as to why catted downpipes would even be offered in any capacity if they wouldn't trigger the rear O2 "ready" signal at a minimum. I'm in Houston, TX and there is no CARB regulations but the OBII is checked for certain indicators, one of which is the O2 sensors reading "ready".
I've already stated that I'm new at this and learning quickly about AM and tuning products but I feel like I was mislead, even if some of the fault was due to my naivety. The problem is that now I'm stuck with brand new catted down pipes that won't trigger the ready signal and I'm being told the only solution is to install factory downpipes again just to pass inspection. Oh and of course I don't have my old factory downpipes and even if I did the cat on the left bank wasn't working anyway and would have triggered the P0420 DTC.
I will call LMS when I get caught up at work today to see if there are any other solutions. I appreciate everyone's help and feedback!
Unfortunately you're 1 and only option was laid out to you with your current tune and hard parts
But if willing to spend money you have more options...try another tune, buy ppe catted pipes
Obviously you can see why they turn off the 02's ...you got p0430&20 codes...which begs the question why not go catless and spend less money and get more performance
Agreed AJP, that's why I'm dumbfounded why the catted downpipes are even offered. I'd be in the same mess I'm in now with straight pipes so I should have just gone with that option.
My goal now is to get "inspection ready" as cheap as possible. Depending on what LMS says when I call later today I may try some O2 foulers; they're cheap so even if they don't work I'm no worse for the wear but if they do work it will save me a ton of money and headache.
Quote from: Kcope2006 on January 18, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
Agreed AJP, that's why I'm dumbfounded why the catted downpipes are even offered. I'd be in the same mess I'm in now with straight pipes so I should have just gone with that option.
My goal now is to get "inspection ready" as cheap as possible. Depending on what LMS says when I call later today I may try some O2 foulers; they're cheap so even if they don't work I'm no worse for the wear but if they do work it will save me a ton of money and headache.
Catted pipes are offered because in some municipalities they do not perform sniffer, readiness, or emission testing of any sort. HOWEVER, during an inspection they do a visual inspection to verify that catalytic converters are present. This is the case for my area, which is why I have catted DP's but the rear o2's are turned off. Just had my state inspection two days ago, passed with flying colors.
Good luck, however, from what I understand, foulers and/or extenders do not work with our cars.
There is good resale value for the LMS catted pipes, so it might be worth picking up a pair of PPE's that have a great track records of achieving readiness and selling the LMS ones in the classified section. The out of pocket loss would be minimal assuming you do the work yourself.
Here is a link to the PPE pipes for the F150, as you can see they state the cats used will keep the CEL off, however still no guarantee that you pass a readiness check (though if the CEL is not set then you should be in ready state)
http://www.ppeengineering-onlinestore.com/Ford-F150-Ecoboost-V6-25-3-High-flow-Cats-130005.htm (http://www.ppeengineering-onlinestore.com/Ford-F150-Ecoboost-V6-25-3-High-flow-Cats-130005.htm)
Another option, would be to purchase a more efficient catalytic converter (such as what PPE uses) and swap that in to the current pipes (possibly with flanges to allow for you remove the cats and add straight pipe once you have passed inspection)
Further option, would be to try and find a used set of OEM pipes, from someone that has upgraded and does not need them, and swap those in, then swap back to the LME pipes after.
Well I bought 2 "mini CAT" extenders/non-foulers to install and try first. I figure $100 and an easy install is worth the attempt. They have the platinum-rhodium honeycombs in them so we'll see. They'll be in tomorrow so by time I get them, install and drive around to get through the drive cycle I should know something this weekend. I'm praying I'll get lucky and it works.
If that doesn't work then I'll probably look for used OEM downpipes to install for the inspection and then have to put the LMS hi-flow pipes back.
Another side note: I'm obviously frustrated with the stupid state inspection mess I'm dealing with but I have to give props to LMS for the performance package. The truck runs beautifully on the 93 performance tune and I'm getting some serious increases in torque and HP and you can feel it not only when I put the pedal to the floor but even in day to day driving. The throttle response and shifting is greatly improved and my gas mileage has gone up about 2mpg in my daily commute. I haven't tried the Xv1 Race tune yet but I will as soon as I get past the hurdle with the inspection.
Again, thank all of you for the help/suggestions and I'll keep you posted.
If you have torque pro you can certainly monitor the I/M readiness status but unfortunately as mentioned a while back it can take sometimes up to 200 miles before all monitors are ready, especially the heated catalyst and best of luck to ya. Z
Here's a great link below on the obd monitor's.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/obd_monitor_not_ready.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/obd_monitor_not_ready.htm)
The manual may have instructions on how to run through the full cycle of tests, I've seen it now in a lot of modern vehicles.
Just to add some clarity. First, and foremost, why we offer catted downpipes, and primarily recommend them are for a number of reasons. #1 smell. I don't know anyone that would want to deal with the stench of a non-catted setup on anything, but especially cars and trucks as nice as this. #2 at least there is some improvement in emissions vs. non-cats, even though it's for race use, it's not a bad thing to make it cleaner than no cats would do. #3 raspiness, cats do help with the tone of the exhaust. #4 the power difference is not what most people think. While there is an improvement from downpipes in power, a high flow race cat vs. no cat is only about 2-3hp difference on builds exceeding 700hp. So, it's a fallacy that ditching cats vs. a race cat is going to unlock power. It's lucky to be 2hp on anything EcoBoost. #5 oil smoke, ecoboost vehicles have a high tendency to have some amount of oil smoke, even when stock, but by ditching cats entirely, this almost becomes a guarantee that it will have oil smoke.
Now, as for running a different cat, now you have a tradeoff. For a catalyst to be better at it's job, there are a number of things that much be true. #1 is it will be more restrictive. This means it will be more restrictive than a comparable cat that is less effective. To offset this, you can make the cat larger, but we're talking substantially so. It's not linear, meaning a 50% reduction in flow through the brick does not mean you increase it 50% to offset the loss in flow, a good baseline is doubling it in size to get back to your starting point. But, since this would be an exceptionally expensive catalyst assembly, no one does that, so, instead, they accept a reduction in flow to achieve this efficiency in conversion of emissions. So, you've now put a downpipe on the car to gain flow, but then put a cat on it that flows similar to stock for the chance of not setting a light.
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well
If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals , crank case pressure, intake restriction
I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well
If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals , crank case pressure, intake restriction
I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.
And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless
Don't know that the ball was dropped at all. Last I heard, LME uses the same highflow Magnaflow units that PPE does, the rest is just a pipe, so hard to understand the difference, if any. Do we have enough people chiming in to say that with LME downpipes and a stock tune, they did not pass a sniffer test or an OBD test? Same Q about the rear O2s being turned off. With a stock tune, they would be turned back on.
No, they are not saying a larger cat would restrict flow. They ARE saying that in order to be as efficient as the OEM needs a cat to be to meet EPA standards, as well as meet the packaging requirements of the vehicle, the cat is designed to be relatively small and restrictive. You would have to install a larger cat to achieve less restriction, higher flow, and still meet the OEM cat's catalytic efficiency.
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
Olfactory senses differ, SMH, LOL. But cold starts will yield the worst of the output. Remember GTDI is very similar to diesel technology, and the emissions are quite similar in nature. That is to say, quite carcinogenic. I would not want to be breathing in that crap for even a short period of time. Why would you want others to?
Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well
Generally not with PPE downpipes. With SW downpipes, yes, but they do not use the Magnaflow hiflow units.
If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals , crank case pressure, intake restriction
True, the most frequent case being a turbo seal. OEM turbo seals, at least on 2010-12 units, have been known to be weak. So a tune or a catback/turboback has been "blamed" for its' failure. Having more cats in the path restricts efficiency, but also removes more particulate matter/emissions.
I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
And we want to help the turbos live as long as possible!
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well
If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals , crank case pressure, intake restriction
I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.
And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on January 19, 2017, 06:52:05 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z
I am not referring to a smell in cabin, I am referring to literally standing in front of the exhaust pipes, as the exhaust clouds out due to the hot gas hitting frigid air. There is a faint hint of gasoline in that scenario, which has been the case on my car since it was brand new. Not noticeable next to the car or in it/in front of.
I have noticed an almost identical smell to what I am describing with any vehicle that I have driven in the cold, my old 04 F150 did it, my mustang does it, my moms fusion, my grandmas focus. Everyone one of those vehicles, including mustang and F150 had all stock catalytic converts. Other than the mustang and F150 the entire exhaust system stock on those cars.
I may have a more acute sense to the smell of gas than you, who knows. But the statement/fact remains that on my car, catless downpipes and 3rd cat has not changed smell, and I doubt there would be much difference with a 3rd cat delete, but can not make a factual statement regarding my car in that scenario because I have not done it yet.
As always, cars are different, people are different, so who knows, maybe with my car but you near it you would not notice a smell? Maybe your car, and me in the scenario I described - I would smell something?
I think both of our cars, and senses are different. Good discussion here, but at this point you and I debating whether our cars have a smell isn't of much value to this thread IMO.
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 07:09:29 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 19, 2017, 06:52:05 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z
I am not referring to a smell in cabin, I am referring to literally standing in front of the exhaust pipes, as the exhaust clouds out due to the hot gas hitting frigid air. There is a faint hint of gasoline in that scenario, which has been the case on my car since it was brand new. Not noticeable next to the car or in it/in front of.
I have noticed an almost identical smell to what I am describing with any vehicle that I have driven in the cold, my old 04 F150 did it, my mustang does it, my moms fusion, my grandmas focus. Everyone one of those vehicles, including mustang and F150 had all stock catalytic converts. Other than the mustang and F150 the entire exhaust system stock on those cars.
I may have a more acute sense to the smell of gas than you, who knows. But the statement/fact remains that on my car, catless downpipes and 3rd cat has not changed smell, and I doubt there would be much difference with a 3rd cat delete, but can not make a factual statement regarding my car in that scenario because I have not done it yet.
As always, cars are different, people are different, so who knows, maybe with my car but you near it you would not notice a smell? Maybe your car, and me in the scenario I described - I would smell something?
I think both of our cars, and senses are different. Good discussion here, but at this point you and I debating whether our cars have a smell isn't of much value to this thread IMO.
Derfdog BTW, last time I checked this is a public forum and everyone is welcomed to share his/her's opinion AFAIK and open for discussions. Z
Well, as you all had already stated the "mini CAT" O2 non-foulers didn't work. It throws P013A/P013C codes.
Doing a little more digging on the LMS website there is not "off-road use only" disclaimer on the Stage 2 kit product page, which is where I located and shopped for the parts. There IS a disclaimer if you only look at the catted down pipe product page.
All hope is lost and it looks like I'm going to have to spend a lot more time and money to correct this which is frustrating. Yet again, thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I'm going to do some research to find out what the least troublesome solution would be; whether that's buying OEM downpipes to install to pass inspection or trying to sell my LMS downpipes products and switch to PPE. Or if I'm going to just abandon all of it and go back to all factory parts.
I really wish my first delve into aftermarket upgrades would have gone smoother than this...
So you have tried the LME downpipes + OEM tune + drive cycle completion route? You can always pull the neg batt cable for 30 min/try the KAM reset procedure then do the drive cycle again on the OEM tune.
Quote from: Kcope2006 on January 23, 2017, 11:22:13 AM
Well, as you all had already stated the "mini CAT" O2 non-foulers didn't work. It throws P013A/P013C codes.
Doing a little more digging on the LMS website there is not "off-road use only" disclaimer on the Stage 2 kit product page, which is where I located and shopped for the parts. There IS a disclaimer if you only look at the catted down pipe product page.
All hope is lost and it looks like I'm going to have to spend a lot more time and money to correct this which is frustrating. Yet again, thank you all for the comments and suggestions. I'm going to do some research to find out what the least troublesome solution would be; whether that's buying OEM downpipes to install to pass inspection or trying to sell my LMS downpipes products and switch to PPE. Or if I'm going to just abandon all of it and go back to all factory parts.
I really wish my first delve into aftermarket upgrades would have gone smoother than this...
Sorry for your troubles once again, I have noticed the LME site seems to have some inconsistencies/typos, and IMO, I would take a screenshot of the page you purchased from (to validate that it does not state off-road use only) and talk to LME about correcting this on their end (ie. taking care of you as you did not know and the page you looked at did not tell you there may be emissions related issues).
As for the mini-cats, what happened here is the reason I generally stay with tried and trued options, instead of trying to go off on my own, as sometimes you just throw the money away.
Your best bet for a set it and forget it option, is to go with PPE pipes, which will pass readiness tests (though they may not pass sniffer tests), you will get the benefits of larger pipes with better spool over the stock pipes.
If you want to do a little more work on your end, then I say try to find stock pipes (or have yours repaired - I believe you mentioned yours had an issue which is why you went aftermarket, correct?). Install stock pipes for emissions testing, then revert back to LME pipes afterwards. If you keep the LME pipes, I would recommend removing the mini-cat and reverting them to as delivered.
Feel free to ask if you have any questions.
SHO - yes I have tried the downpipes with OEM tune...twice. Once it completes the drive cycle the CEL comes on with P0420/0430 codes (ineffective CATS). There's not enough catalyst in the hi-flow cats to trigger the correct reading for the O2 sensors.
Derf - I believe I'm going to look for some used OEM downpipes to install for inspection and then reinstall the LMS pipes. I already have the CAI, thermostat and pipes that the tune was made for so it seems like that's the easiest solution. I have already grabbed screenshots to present to LMS.
:(
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7260.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7260.0.html)
this was the main reason i kept my old dp when i went to the ppe's was our state inspection. they did pass a readiness state test once i ran the goofy procedure. i have not check it since to see if readiness error came back. i almost positive they passed the AZ state as well.
Folks need to pay close attention to their states emissions laws. In CO they put our cars on a roller, run them up to 55, and do a sniff test while they do it. Do you think I would chance catted DP's? Nope, because I know it will fail after doing the research.
LMS does warn you about emissions and off-road use only (maybe not strictly in the link to that catted DP, but it is all over their site)! Hell, my tuner came with multiple warnings, JUST FOR THE TUNE! Regardless, it isn't on your shop (LMS or any other) to inform you of your state emissions laws, EPA standards, or anything else. It is up to you to understand these laws and know what you can do to your car/truck/bike, etc.
In CO we have zero emissions on new cars for the first 7 years...so you can have a lot of fun until then. After that it is every other year. If you are willing to swap back to original parts every two years you can run what you want! In my case, I don't want to. I would rather rebuild a motor, or build a new motor, than swap exhaust parts for an emissions test. That said, because I did my research, I know I don't want the DP's.
Just sayin'!
Bumping an old thread but just wanted to share a bit of info. In the ST community, the Vibrant j-bend defouler is the go to for catted and catless downpipes. No P0420 triggers with stock tune or tune that leaves the rear O2's turned on. Not sure if anyone has used or had any success on these platforms with that particular style of defouler.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-11620?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-vibrant-performance&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIisW5w8XZ2QIVELXACh33fQYEEAQYAiABEgI8d_D_BwE (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpe-11620?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-vibrant-performance&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIisW5w8XZ2QIVELXACh33fQYEEAQYAiABEgI8d_D_BwE)