Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => Troubleshooting, Maintenance, TSB Articles => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 03:52:39 PM

Title: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 03:52:39 PM
Hey guys, about to slam my head into a wall so figured I'd come and poll the audience for input. Life is busy these days and don't have a full weekend to troubleshoot so looking for potential ideas ya'll can think of.

Backgound:
- 2013 Ford Taurus SHO, 72k miles
- XDI-35 hpfp w E30 tune, EPP hot pipes w/ stock BPVs, Gearhead intercooler, BBK throttle body, Airaid Intake, Stainless Works Downpipes, stock catback

Car has been tuned since 22k miles. About 5k miles ago I popped a CEL for a large EVAP leak. Decided to datalog and found that my fuel trims were 1.09 at idle, 1.14 cruising, and 1.32 (yea) at wot and I was now only seeing 12-15 psi instead of the 18 I was getting previously. Used IDS to cycle the purge valve and found it to be bad. Replaced it, no more light but the fuel trims and boost issues remained.

Did a pressure/smoke test and found a few leaking couplers and also found a crack in the oem throttle body so replaced it. Fuel trims dropped to 1.06 at idle, 1.09 cruising, and 1.24 wot. This week I replaced the front and rear pcv valves after finding the rear one to be bad, and as of today (cleared KAM yesterday morning) this is my data:

stft idle - 1.00
stft cruise - 1.06
stft wot - 0.94-0.98
ltft cruise - 1.00
ltft wot - 1.13
commanding 0.81 lambda, seeing 0.87-0.81 wot
hpfp 17.57 mpa (2550 psi)
wastegates are at 95%, were in the 60s before
commanding 232 kpa, only seeing 200 kpa

I replaced the spark plugs last week just to check, but it appears that I have a pretty big leak that can't seem to be found with smoke or positive pressure.

And before anyone mentions the tune, we've tuned this setup many times with great luck, so the chances that our tune is messed up isn't likely.

Last log before I popped the CEL had wastegates around 60% and boost was only about 5 kpa off commanded with near perfect fuel trims.

I was tossing ideas back and forth with a friend that's an ASE tech, and he suggested possibly needing to replace the boost solenoid, but I wasn't really seeing any issues similar to this when checking.

I scoped the impellers when I installed the downpipes and hot pipes and didn't notice any damage or play in the shaft or vanes.

Thoughts? Car is no slouch, it still runs 12.42 @ 110 consistently but feel it should have a lot more in it.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on July 31, 2019, 04:11:48 PM
It could be a waste-gate hose that is leaking coming from the Boost reference solenoid too Front or Rear actuator! I think you referenced changing both PCV valves and think you meant both front & rear BOV! Z

Check the 1/4 Hoses to verify they are not leaking and also make certain its securely connected to charge pipe with a mini hose clamp which Ford never updated!

Hoses from Boost reference solenoid

(https://i.imgur.com/AiCRvk2h.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QxwMAmkh.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 04:28:45 PM
nope, meant the PCV valves. Replaced the brown on and then installed the revised green in place of the black pass-through.

Both BPVs/BOVs looked fine when I installed the hot pipes, and no bubbles when doing the positive pressure/soapy water test.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 04:52:41 PM
See attached for log snapshots between 12-8 and yesterday.

12-8 log was just Airaid intake and E30.

Installed GH intercooler and downpipes in February and started having issues shortly after. Installed hot pipes and throttle body to remedy leaks found during smoke test, but issues still persist.

We've tuned several cars with the GH intercooler without issue, so don't think it's tune related.

12-8 log has LTFTs at 1.00 and STFTs are 0.98-1.02 at wot.

Ideas?
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: SHOdded on July 31, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor 
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 05:12:12 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 31, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

yea actuators are my next check, gonna hook them up to the air compressor and make sure they are both opening correctly and that there are no cracks in the line

noisemaker went away with the hot pipes.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on July 31, 2019, 11:59:27 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on July 31, 2019, 05:07:51 PM
When you scoped the turbos, you verified the wastegate actuators were working.  Not a common item to break on the 3.5, but very common on the 2.0.

I would try the BOVs next, see if maybe the springs are not holding pressure.  Usually it is the diaphragm that goes rather than the spring.  The spring has been known to go on the 2.0, not so much the 3.5.

Hard to see how the noisemaker is the problem, but if you still have it, maybe just cap that port instead and see.

Could be a failing purge valve as well.

This is what the manual has to say:
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (Gross Leak/No Flow)

Description:  The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the complete evaporative emission (EVAP) control system for no purge flow, the presence of a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple small fuel vapor leaks. System failure occurs when no purge flow, which is attributed to fuel vapor blockages or restrictions, a large fuel vapor leak, or multiple fuel vapor leaks are detected by the EVAP running loss monitor test with the engine running, but not at idle. 

Possible Causes: 
Aftermarket EVAP hardware that does not conform to the required specifications
Disconnected or cracked fuel EVAP canister tube, EVAP purge valve outlet tube, or EVAP return tube
EVAP purge valve stuck closed
Damaged EVAP canister
Damaged, missing or loosely installed fuel filler cap
Capless fuel tank filler pipe damaged or not sealed correctly (if equipped)
Loose fuel vapor hose/tube connections to the EVAP system components
Blockages or restrictions in the fuel vapor hoses/tubes
Fuel vapor control valve tube assembly or fuel vapor vent valve assembly blocked
EVAP canister vent valve stuck open
Mechanically inoperative fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor

bad purge valve is what triggered all of this. :)
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: SHOdded on August 01, 2019, 02:05:21 AM
All is well then?
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: avidmotion on August 01, 2019, 09:50:00 AM
yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on August 01, 2019, 10:24:03 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on August 01, 2019, 02:05:21 AM
All is well then?

no haha the CEL for the purge valve is what prompted me to datalog and discover the other issues. I changed the purge valve out which got rid of the CEL but still have the wonky fuel trims and boost bleed off issue.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on August 01, 2019, 10:25:17 AM
Quote from: avidmotion on August 01, 2019, 09:50:00 AM
yea! glad it fixed, where is the second or front pcv ? I changed the brown one in the back already...

Not fixed yet, looking for other ideas. The front pcv is really a pass through tube no check valve, I just changed it because the O-ring bubbled when sprayed with soapy water.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on August 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Ahh! Front PCV Tube/elbow! New Gaskets installed with DP! I noticed you have the SW Catted DP and wanted to know if you needed to modify the Front 02 sensor NPT Bungs since your issues started after the DP & IC install! TOL! Z
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on August 02, 2019, 12:53:16 AM
front and rear pcv valve's changed this week, yes has to relocate the front wideband since I'm a PP. New gaskets were used at the turbos.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: FiveLeeter918 on August 09, 2019, 12:28:00 AM
Welp following up, went back to 91 to eliminate any fuel trims from that, and had a buddy come over Saturday night to troubleshoot. Installed my boost leak tester, pressured up to 5 psi and you could hear a faint noise. Went to 10 and it was very apparent that we had a leak.

Turned out the boot T-clamp popped off the rear turbo which was affecting wastegate readout. All fixed!
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: 802SHO on August 09, 2019, 05:41:55 AM
Glad to hear you got it fixed!
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 03, 2019, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on August 09, 2019, 12:28:00 AM
Welp following up, went back to 91 to eliminate any fuel trims from that, and had a buddy come over Saturday night to troubleshoot. Installed my boost leak tester, pressured up to 5 psi and you could hear a faint noise. Went to 10 and it was very apparent that we had a leak.

Turned out the boot T-clamp popped off the rear turbo which was affecting wastegate readout. All fixed!
Follow up ? How do you test for boost leaks on a twin turbo setup like the SHO? I've seen some YouTube videos where you cap off the turbo and pressurize everything but assume you would have to do it to both turbos? Or is there another way? TIA

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on October 05, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
There are many reputable shops that perform a Smoke test! Bottle of soap is another alternative with water preferably kids (Mr Bubbles) and spray around the engine bay until you notice any bubbles forming. Z


Here's the PIC of the TURBOCHARGER VACUUM HOSE LINE TUBE AKA - Rubber Valve Assembly as mentioned earlier for reference..I'm just TOL

https://fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-valve-asy-rubber_dg1z-9961-a.html?Vin=1FAHP2KT5DG183206&Filter=()&Location=turbocharger,,9961


(https://i.imgur.com/nBqk3NVl.jpg)
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 05, 2019, 07:52:57 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 05, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
There are many reputable shops that perform a Smoke test! Bottle of soap is another alternative with water preferably kids (Mr Bubbles) and spray around the engine bay until you notice any bubbles forming. Z


Here's the PIC of the TURBOCHARGER VACUUM HOSE LINE TUBE AKA - Rubber Valve Assembly as mentioned earlier for reference..I'm just TOL

https://fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-valve-asy-rubber_dg1z-9961-a.html?Vin=1FAHP2KT5DG183206&Filter=()&Location=turbocharger,,9961


(https://i.imgur.com/nBqk3NVl.jpg)
Thanks *. Well my car is actually running just fine now stock. It fixed itself at some point which bugs me even more. I'm leaving it alone for now although I still feel the wastegates duty is high to maintain stock boost levels. I will probably go back to tunes and see if it can keep up.

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on October 12, 2019, 08:00:05 AM
I guess you can always try to (pinch) the wastegate hose leading to the wastegate with locking pliers in order to determine if one of your Turbos are going bad!
If you notice the Boost level is back to normal during this procedure then one of your turbos need replacing and remove the pliers..

I would also try to rule out a plugged CAC.

It's a bit of Trial & error and proceed with CAUTION rule may apply!!  Z
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 12, 2019, 09:42:58 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 12, 2019, 08:00:05 AM
I guess you can always try to (pinch) the wastegate hose leading to the wastegate with locking pliers in order to determine if one of your Turbos are going bad!
If you notice the Boost level is back to normal during this procedure then one of your turbos need replacing and remove the pliers..

I would also try to rule out a plugged CAC.

It's a bit of Trial & error and proceed with CAUTION rule may apply!!  Z
Thanks Z. I've been patiently troubleshooting the last week. I've ruled out the TIP and MAP sensors unfortunately because those would have been easy. I took my air compressor and pressurizes the hose leading to both wastegates with about 12 psi and both wastegates moved and I verified there weren't any slow leaks so the hoses and connections are solid. I got both wastegates to physically move however the back one make a slight noise which makes me think it may be sticking.

I do have some general questions I'm hoping someone can answer specific to the Ecoboost. Are the wastegates normally closed or open? I know when the car hits 100% duty cycle on the boost solenoid that  I thought it was sending boost to the wastegates to close them fully so the turbos spin up. Since these are pressure actuated that would mean they are open normally? Or am I getting this backward LOL...

Unless the boost solenoid is bad I most likely have a sticking rear turbo wastegate.

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on October 12, 2019, 03:04:22 PM
The wastegates should be in the closed position AFAIK!
In your case it sounds like one or more wastegates are maybe stuck open or sticky wastegate.
The noise your hearing could be related to your issue!
I would also try to disconnect the PCM connectors and inspect the wiring harness for corrosion and clean it with some electronic or air mas flow cleaner.

Car wash (auto) or heavy rain recently! Z

[PDF BELOW]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8JUL90DXgdidFg4ZmN6SzF3cVVueGo2TFNSNUtfamJPcllN/view?usp=drivesdk



Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: autox4fun on October 17, 2019, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 12, 2019, 03:04:22 PM
The wastegates should be in the closed position AFAIK!
In your case it sounds like one or more wastegates are maybe stuck open or sticky wastegate.
The noise your hearing could be related to your issue!
I would also try to disconnect the PCM connectors and inspect the wiring harness for corrosion and clean it with some electronic or air mas flow cleaner.

Car wash (auto) or heavy rain recently! Z

[PDF BELOW]

wastegate at 100% is the pcm requesting boost and closing the valve to prevent movement of the actuator.
0.00 is rest position, or just wastegate spring only

(this is the way it was told to me)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8JUL90DXgdidFg4ZmN6SzF3cVVueGo2TFNSNUtfamJPcllN/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 17, 2019, 07:53:00 PM
Quote from: autox4fun on October 17, 2019, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 12, 2019, 03:04:22 PM
The wastegates should be in the closed position AFAIK!
In your case it sounds like one or more wastegates are maybe stuck open or sticky wastegate.
The noise your hearing could be related to your issue!
I would also try to disconnect the PCM connectors and inspect the wiring harness for corrosion and clean it with some electronic or air mas flow cleaner.

Car wash (auto) or heavy rain recently! Z

[PDF BELOW]

wastegate at 100% is the pcm requesting boost and closing the valve to prevent movement of the actuator.
0.00 is rest position, or just wastegate spring only

(this is the way it was told to me)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8JUL90DXgdidFg4ZmN6SzF3cVVueGo2TFNSNUtfamJPcllN/view?usp=drivesdk
Thanks for the reply and this makes total sense. I guess I was thrown off by a few posts on the other forum which said the c clip fell off their wastegates actuators and they had low boost. I thought to myself shouldn't they have high boost since the wastegates wouldn't open? Anyway I've ruled out the TBCP (TIp pressure sensor), the MAP sensor, IAT sensors, and the turbo charger boost solenoid, the BOV's, along with the lines that lead to the wastegates. I either have a big boost leak someplace (which I can't hear) or the wastegates are sticking open. I believe it's the latter unfortunately because the back one makes a weird sound when I artificially open it with compressed air. I've got an appointment at the dealer next Friday. I may have a local shop throw a boost leak detector on it first just to rule that out but I do have hot pipes and they seem Rock solid as I've checked the boots and clamps...

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 17, 2019, 08:02:16 PM
Wait a minute I think I get it...if the c clip pops off then the wastegates spring is still in play correct? So you'd see some boost but not only up to spring pressure...

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 17, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
Upon further review I've definitely found a problem. The front turbo wastegates actuator is no longer connected to anything...Its buried under the exhaust manifold and while I can get my fingers under there I can't get it from the topside by feel. It might be missing an entire pin and clip? Here is the only shot I could get of the end of the wastegate actuator attached to well... nothing from what I can tell  The rod also has play in it up and down which further adds to the it's not attached ..maybe I can get to it from the bottom?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/95372644b20ae0a4469610a75a41331c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/0f5ca7638f4adedde8346fde87b8a9b9.jpg)

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: TopherSho on October 17, 2019, 10:47:05 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on October 17, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
Upon further review I've definitely found a problem. The front turbo wastegates actuator is no longer connected to anything...Its buried under the exhaust manifold and while I can get my fingers under there I can't get it from the topside by feel. It might be missing an entire pin and clip? Here is the only shot I could get of the end of the wastegate actuator attached to well... nothing from what I can tell  The rod also has play in it up and down which further adds to the it's not attached ..maybe I can get to it from the bottom?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/95372644b20ae0a4469610a75a41331c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/0f5ca7638f4adedde8346fde87b8a9b9.jpg)

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Rent a lift?  That would explain a few things ..
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: Jordan on October 17, 2019, 11:49:42 PM
That would cause a lack of boost LOL! Glad ya found it
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ZSHO on October 18, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Glad you found it! Is it still under warranty! 
Remove both Front and rear under- cover. PICS Below.  Z
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: SHOdded on October 18, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
C Clip
(https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10072.0;attach=21662)
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 18, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 18, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
C Clip
(https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10072.0;attach=21662)
Thank you!  I am going to have to buy some different sizes and see what fits but that should get me close.
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 18, 2019, 08:38:14 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on October 18, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Glad you found it! Is it still under warranty! 
Remove both Front and rear under- cover. PICS Below.  Z
Thanks Z!  It's definitely not under warranty (I had an extended warranty and I ended up getting my money's worth for it however it expired in June) or I would have just taken it to the dealer and let them probably just put a new turbo on it instead of troubleshooting it for so long. :)
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: SHOdded on October 18, 2019, 09:28:28 AM
Hopefully the C Clip will get this issue buttoned down & you can go rip roaring down the street again :D

https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts-list/2013-ford-taurus/turbocharger.html?Filter=(38591;30734) (https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts-list/2013-ford-taurus/turbocharger.html?Filter=(38591;30734))
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 18, 2019, 08:19:44 PM
So brief update. I jacked the car up as high as it would safely go then crawled under it. It was quickly apparent that while I could see  the actuator from down there I wasn't going to be reaching it easily as my car is a PP and the oil cooler is in the way. I drained my oil and took off the filter which gave just enough room to squeeze my big hand in there but just one of them. I was able to grab the lever but it was retracted too far to slip it back over the wastegate pin and with just one hand I couldn't pull it. So I enlisted the help of my 10 year old and my air compressor. He squeezed some compressed air in to the actuator and when it moved I was able to wiggle it on to the rod. Success I thought! But then I tried to put a new e clip on it and that was nearly impossible with one hand. That and I'm not sure I had the exact size I needed. Gave up after one hour of trying and some choice words...I am probably going to have to remove the downpipe which isn't the end of the world but this was not the 5 minute job I was hoping for thanks to that oil cooler...

Oh and there is an exhaust gasket right up there with very sharp edges. Ask me how I know...

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Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: SHOdded on October 19, 2019, 02:10:36 AM
At least your progeny sees you spilling your blood.  Priceless :D

Did you confirm that the turbo is in good shape internally?  No other issues that might just end up blowing the circlip off again?
Title: Re: Boost leak help
Post by: ecoboostsho on October 19, 2019, 07:15:47 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 19, 2019, 02:10:36 AM
At least your progeny sees you spilling your blood.  Priceless :D

Did you confirm that the turbo is in good shape internally?  No other issues that might just end up blowing the circlip off again?
I did verify that the wategate appears to be okay. I could get full wastegate movement with the compressor...but I didn't actually see inside the turbo itself so anybody's guess!

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