Going to be a simple/hidden design for the sub and amps in the trunk with a false floor. Using a DSP to keep the OEM HU. I had been considering getting a single din HU and putting in the glove box or fiber glassing into where the center channel speaker is located. No real good options for putting in an aftermarket unit with how car manufacturers are integrating multiple functions into a single HU design.
Front doors and trunk will be sound deadened. Also going to speak with the builder about the necessity to sound deaden the floor pans.
Going to be running the front components active with no rear fill.
Components being used:
Mosconi 4to6 DSP, PHD FB Pro 6.1 Component Speakers run Active with a Mosconi Gladen One 120.4, the JL 12w6v2 and JL JX 1000/1.
Got the PHD FB Pro 6.1 Components in. http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/speakers/fb61_kit.asp (http://www.phd.it/welcome_to/speakers/fb61_kit.asp)
Looks like there were some small design changes compared to the pics I've seen elsewhere (no logo on dust cap etc...).
Review of the components (mine don't have the aluminum housing for the tweeters).
PHD FB 6.1 Competition Component Speakers Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_cZudlWCGo#ws)
Everything for the install:
(http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss63/customaudioman/Mobile%20Uploads/20131213_145650_zps2748dd16.jpg)
Sweet! ... Now if Santa would just send you some elves to do the work!
This is what is going to be done to retain useable trunk space.
Looks sharp, as well as an efficient use of space.
+1 :OK:
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Very nice. Really clean looking. What are your plans, if any, for the surface of the spare tire well?
Not sure what you mean. It is going to have a cover that can be placed over top that won't interfere with sub excursion.
Sorry, I actually was was asking if you were going to do anything t the weel below the sub... TIA
Out of curiosity, for this type of install and others who use spare tire space for subs, is there no concern to carry a spare? Will you just rely on being towed?
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 13, 2013, 11:42:06 PM
Out of curiosity, for this type of install and others who use spare tire space for subs, is there no concern to carry a spare? Will you just rely on being towed?
Sound deadening - pretty standard.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 14, 2013, 09:11:12 AM
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on December 13, 2013, 11:42:06 PM
Out of curiosity, for this type of install and others who use spare tire space for subs, is there no concern to carry a spare? Will you just rely on being towed?
Sound deadening - pretty standard.
The Performance Package SHO doesn't have a spare. You get a little run flat kit. But yes, you get towed.
Some updated photo's. Should be done tomorrow. Have been slowed by working through issues unique to the Taurus with the firewall and combined stock amp/dsp that combines numerous ford sync features.
Here are some photo's.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c_XkW9WdXlE/UrMk1vQ3UVI/AAAAAAAAA8I/MQ8IHbzn--Y/s912/unnamed.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R9x7Dzw8GYc/UrMkyZ6jRNI/AAAAAAAAA7U/V3q5wz-EPwo/s912/deadening2.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SHE4wwUmRUI/UrMkxPVvXXI/AAAAAAAAA7A/_eRgV4L2lqs/s912/deadening.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fwNHXD3rBZ8/UrMmQWoZlBI/AAAAAAAAA8c/yQdVMXqS5Fk/s912/rack.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4Rqzj4SJf4k/UrMmQUoRUYI/AAAAAAAAA8g/Tyl6awFQ4wE/s912/rack2.jpg)
Very nice! You have used the Focal BAM before? MDF for the box?
Where have you all gotten the amp turn on signal?
MDF for box. I am not actually installing, just helping the installer with some questions he had unique to the Taurus SHO.
Going to pick it up tomorrow. He is just tuning the DSP right now.
Some more pictures:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U_QsvKVoHqI/UrX20AR4jrI/AAAAAAAAA9c/4dN-Jk-3thQ/s912/rack3.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-f93OVikATHE/UrX20FIzvlI/AAAAAAAAA9o/rqCCOPHN_NA/s912/rack4.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-k9t0mVbfQxs/UrX20D1sBUI/AAAAAAAAA9k/BO_nMlxi5WE/s912/rack5.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9xlvZ5zYECU/UrX20r5BH5I/AAAAAAAAA9g/gm7Gvp5HPIo/s912/rack6.jpg)
Very Cool!!! Anxious to see the final install! Waiting for those pics! :popcorn:
Picked it up today. Sounds good, I just need to tune it to my exact liking. Tweets are a bit bright right now and I might need to adjust some gains. Going active without a crossover makes it a touch more time consuming but the benefit is a fuller sound and more control.
Installer did a good job and the deadening of the doors made a big difference.
Final product looks like that last pic but with a sub and panels to cover them. ;)
Merry Christmas!!!
Carols, now heard in 3D! Enjoy the new setup, and don't forget to go WOT a few times too!
Thanks. I'm super busy right now. Movers come tomorrow to send our household items to Germany and I'm trying to get the car ready to ship as well.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 22, 2013, 10:04:08 PM
Thanks. I'm super busy right now. Movers come tomorrow to send our household items to Germany and I'm trying to get the car ready to ship as well.
EuroSHO! military?
Active Army.
I have a lot to learn about tuning this DSP. Almost too many settings. You can control gain, crossover, time alignment, phase, etc...
Time to start reading some tutorials about what frequencies each component is supposed to play and where to increase the DB's within each freq range.
Final pics:
(http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss63/customaudioman/2014%20Ford%20Taurus%20SHO/20131222_104239_zpsd4347fe3.jpg)
(http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss63/customaudioman/2014%20Ford%20Taurus%20SHO/20131222_1149080_zpsa83e7bc6.jpg)
Well Army (I'm retired USAF)... THANK-YOU!
I helped build 2 vehicles with Alma Gates (Google her.. seriously) and her son While I lived in Payson... one was a Bronco which was national SPL champ for several years in the early 90's (180DB+) and also the national sound quality champ, an F250 SC.
Early recs are:
After you know you have no phase cancellation (see below) use of an RTA can be a starting place (your installer should have done this)... but your hearing is unique, so use a couple of you fav songs and make it so you like it... keep written record of chaqnges as you make them.... and all final settings (for when your battery goes dead!).. keep the latter in the car.
About the tuning (tweaking we call it)....
You should be able to adjust time delay using distance or a supplied microphone... if not let it go.
Leave gain at factory neutral... use volume controls on the head unit.... adjust gain last at the volume you will use most. Usually this is an EQ and you end up with a "V" shaped pattern because our hearing is worst at the highest and lowest frequencies.
Cross subs at 100HZ (too high) to start and work down using your fav song and your ear... i think you'l find something between 40-70 Hz about right to divide subs and mids and get a "bump". Overlap mids with this about 5-10Hz... your tweets should already be done but likely about 2500HZ and above.
Phase-leave it alone if you hear the subs... get a CD with "phase clicks" to check for phase cancellation. Your installer should have done this.
Again Thanks for making my life safe!. and enjoy Germany. It can be fun!
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 23, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
Well Army (I'm retired USAF)... THANK-YOU!
RETIRED Navy.
(http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/gallery/55_11_11_13_10_10_24.jpeg)
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 22, 2013, 11:38:41 PM
Final pics:
Had to look hard to recognize the panel covers :) Looks factory!
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 23, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
Well Army (I'm retired USAF)... THANK-YOU!
I helped build 2 vehicles with Alma Gates (Google her.. seriously) and her son While I lived in Payson... one was a Bronco which was national SPL champ for several years in the early 90's (180DB+) and also the national sound quality champ, an F250 SC.
Early recs are:
After you know you have no phase cancellation (see below) use of an RTA can be a starting place (your installer should have done this)... but your hearing is unique, so use a couple of you fav songs and make it so you like it... keep written record of chaqnges as you make them.... and all final settings (for when your battery goes dead!).. keep the latter in the car.
About the tuning (tweaking we call it)....
You should be able to adjust time delay using distance or a supplied microphone... if not let it go.
Leave gain at factory neutral... use volume controls on the head unit.... adjust gain last at the volume you will use most. Usually this is an EQ and you end up with a "V" shaped pattern because our hearing is worst at the highest and lowest frequencies.
Cross subs at 100HZ (too high) to start and work down using your fav song and your ear... i think you'l find something between 40-70 Hz about right to divide subs and mids and get a "bump". Overlap mids with this about 5-10Hz... your tweets should already be done but likely about 2500HZ and above.
Phase-leave it alone if you hear the subs... get a CD with "phase clicks" to check for phase cancellation. Your installer should have done this.
Again Thanks for making my life safe!. and enjoy Germany. It can be fun!
+1 to all of that. Except overlapping, as I would say that depends on the crossover slope you are using, and whether or not you are using digital processing, or more analog types. Reason: phase distortion is present in analog types.
Sweet that you were on Alma's team. Props for that.
Digital Signal Processor.
Mosconi 4to6.
Using Linkwitz-Riley 12DB slope on everything. Still figuring things out.
Set tweets to a highpass of 2500
Woofers high pass at 65 and high at 2500
Subs low pass at 70
Havn't even tried to equalize any channels. I have the woofers on channels 1 and 2 and have 32 equalization options...mind blowing.
Time delay can be adjusted by distance but I don't think I'm saving it right in the 4to6 processor.
BTW, what is considered factory neutral. Out of the box the amp gain was set such that turning the radio up halfway was too loud. And going active I have the tweets on their own channel, so that channel I have gained pretty low to prevent damage.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 23, 2013, 10:06:04 AM
Digital Signal Processor.
Mosconi 4to6.
Using Linkwitz-Riley 12DB slope on everything. Still figuring things out.
Set tweets to a highpass of 2500
Woofers high pass at 65 and high at 2500
Subs low pass at 70
Havn't even tried to equalize any channels. I have the woofers on channels 1 and 2 and have 32 equalization options...mind blowing.
Time delay can be adjusted by distance but I don't think I'm saving it right in the 4to6 processor.
BTW, what is considered factory neutral. Out of the box the amp gain was set such that turning the radio up halfway was too loud. And going active I have the tweets on their own channel, so that channel I have gained pretty low to prevent damage.
Once you like the sound you can just lower all the EQ settings (they are gain controls) keeping their relationship the same. That will allow finer volume control from your factory head unit and keep ,you from over driving a speaker causing mechanical damage.
I was having an issue with the sound being a bit muted on the highs. Couldn't figure out how to fix it until I changed the woofer low pass to 18KHZ. That is high, but the woofers are rated for it. The result is that it really filled out the sound. Here is how my freqs are set.
I know most people say to low pass the woofers at 2500 with a low pass overlapping the sub, but for some reason it just sounds better with it at 18KHZ and tweeters high passed at 2500.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JOzV77zB1CM/UribUXH-K5I/AAAAAAAAA94/d7GUuOYo4Fs/s1280/Freq%2520Response.jpg)
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 23, 2013, 03:27:55 PM
I was having an issue with the sound being a bit muted on the highs. Couldn't figure out how to fix it until I changed the woofer low pass to 18KHZ. That is high, but the woofers are rated for it. The result is that it really filled out the sound. Here is how my freqs are set.
I know most people say to low pass the woofers at 2500 with a low pass overlapping the sub, but for some reason it just sounds better with it at 18KHZ and tweeters high passed at 2500.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JOzV77zB1CM/UribUXH-K5I/AAAAAAAAA94/d7GUuOYo4Fs/s1280/Freq%2520Response.jpg)
spot on. sounds like a terminology problem...... you got it now!! experiment with the 18Hz between the subs and mids.... at high volumes this could be hard on the mids...... Most would shoot for a flat line without "valleys" across the top of the curve you posted, but if you like the sound that's the key!
I'll work on the valley's. I try and get it where it is technically supposed to be then move it around based on what sounds good. It is the EQ settings I'll tackle later after more reading, and then time alignment.
I have the mids low passed at 18,000HZ, doing that filled in my highs. Previously they sounded muted when I had them low passed at 2500 (i.e. playing everything below 2500hz down to the high pass of 70hz). For some reason relying on the tweeters starting at 2500hz to 20,000hz without the mids was causing that problem.
Thing is, any time you overlap you introduce potentially devastating issues.
Example of one, is your woofer and tweeter in their overlap are now operating at slightly different distances from your ear, so it creates interference patterns. Another, the tweeter's timbre playing those frequencies, and the woofer's timbre playing those, are different. More interference (distortion), and so on.
Minor overlap is potentially a great thing, a way to "fill". But everything is a series of compromises.
Quote from: Lanson on December 23, 2013, 03:50:44 PM
Thing is, any time you overlap you introduce potentially devastating issues.
Example of one, is your woofer and tweeter in their overlap are now operating at slightly different distances from your ear, so it creates interference patterns. Another, the tweeter's timbre playing those frequencies, and the woofer's timbre playing those, are different. More interference (distortion), and so on.
Minor overlap is potentially a great thing, a way to "fill". But everything is a series of compromises.
Spot on Lanson! That's some of the reasons that ultimately the final tuning is based on what the listener's ear likes and not an RTA which hears all frequencies equally.
I know the overlap is significant but for some reason when I cut the woofer off at 2500 and had the tweeter pick it up from there I was getting an odd sound I didn't like. "muted, muddled" etc... would be a good description.
Once I set the woofer to go up between 18-20KHZ it solved the problem. No idea why, but it sounded better. My brother was listening and said the same thing.
I can adjust time alignment also with this DSP but the changes don't seem to be retained, so I need to figure that issue out.
Looks like I can adjust the actual delay or just use distance.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ber4gBxnEnA/UritGFYVcQI/AAAAAAAAA-I/vLSxpaq6Xck/s1152/TA.jpg)
I was set on installing a sub on the side of the trunk but I love your install so much I'm actually thinking of chucking the spare.
Something to keep in mind when you start eq'ing is to pull down peaks and not boost valleys. You can run out of headroom VERY quickly boosting and it may even be a dead spot you will just have to live with.
The best thing I can recommend is getting the software roomeqwizard from hometheatershack.com. There are also pretty good cheap mics you can get that just plug into a usb port or you can spend a little more and get a calibrated mic and powersupply/usb sound card. The software is fantastic! You use a spl meter to calibrate the software first. You turn the volume till the spl meter says 75db then you tell the software what its reading now is 75db. After that you can run sweeps or any tones of your choice and it will measure response, delays, reverb, you name it; all with very nice graphs.
Close to flat response is achievable but sounds pretty shitty. You'll be wanting to dial in a "house curve". At lower volumes our ears are more sensitive to midrange as stated earlier but as the volume goes up it gets flatter. The "loudness" button was mad to compensate for loss of bass and treble perception at low volumes but everyone left it on at high volumes and it sounded "better".
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 23, 2013, 04:38:06 PM
I know the overlap is significant but for some reason when I cut the woofer off at 2500 and had the tweeter pick it up from there I was getting an odd sound I didn't like. "muted, muddled" etc... would be a good description.
Once I set the woofer to go up between 18-20KHZ it solved the problem. No idea why, but it sounded better. My brother was listening and said the same thing.
I can adjust time alignment also with this DSP but the changes don't seem to be retained, so I need to figure that issue out.
Looks like I can adjust the actual delay or just use distance.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ber4gBxnEnA/UritGFYVcQI/AAAAAAAAA-I/vLSxpaq6Xck/s1152/TA.jpg)
If you're going to get this far into I REALLY recommend the rta software I mentioned. It will show you what driver is capable of what then you can make decisions off the data.
the distance / ms in the delay is the same thing. It just does the math from the distance you enter for you to get the ms.
Here, this helps
(http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/289353/)
When you cross your woofer high, you'll introduce breakup distortion. That's why usually we cut them at around 3k or so.
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 23, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
I helped build 2 vehicles with Alma Gates (Google her.. seriously) and her son While I lived in Payson... one was a Bronco which was national SPL champ for several years in the early 90's (180DB+) and also the national sound quality champ, an F250 SC.
Man first the BMW and now Alma. You're reminding me of my old TeamROCS days! She passed away not too long ago if you didn't know.
Correction, here is the interactive one to help real-time
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm)
From here, you'll be able to move your mouse over each range, and get more info.
Here's a guy I follow all the time, though he doesn't post too much any more. The groundwork is already done.
http://zaphaudio.com/ (http://zaphaudio.com/)
Anyway, here's what cone ring and breakup look like on a waterfall RTA
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/55-1860-CSD.gif)
And it manifests differently on a harmonic distortion plot
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/55-1860-HD.gif)
See, this woofer works OK (not great) up to around 2k or so, and then there's this NASTY breakup/ring that occurs around 6k. And again, way up high out of the 20k bandwidth of most ears. We would actually "feel" that speaker being grating. This is a cheesy MCM-55 woofer btw.
freq response for reference
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/55-1860-FR.gif)
Here's a better one, a GR Research M165x
Waterfall
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/M-165X-CSD.gif)
HD
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/M-165X-HD.gif)
and freq response
(http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/M-165X-FR.gif)
This woofer would probably cross much higher, with a lower "le" and a cone that is not susceptible to breakup, I'd wager 4k would be the sweet spot, on a steep slope.
By this same token, tweeters must be crossed properly too. Not just excursion issues, but also distortion expectations at lower frequencies.
Another fun variable of multiple points of output for a given frequency is the nature of reflections/refractions. A woofer in the door deals with those in a much different way that a tweeter on the A-pillar. All adds to the fun.
LOL Now you guys see why I "push" the processor I do. It gets maddening sometimes, thinking about all the variables. Fun for the tweaker though.
Just not sure why playing the mid high like I did made it sound better? When I low passed it at 2500 along with HP for the tweeter I was missing something.
Quote from: Fast SHO on December 23, 2013, 06:10:12 PM
Just not sure why playing the mid high like I did made it sound better? When I low passed it at 2500 along with HP for the tweeter I was missing something.
My guess is that the woofer creates pleasing distortion, 2nd and 4th order distortion (even-order) and it is adding to the sound that you hear (and like.)
Which is fine.
I also think you may be experiencing a heavy drop in certain frequencies due to time alignment/phase relationships and by effect, polarity (180 deg out of phase.)
Consider, just play one speaker at a time. Dead-flat. Play accurate music like testing discs, start with LF woofer at full-pass, and then adjust crossovers slowly. Take a notepad and write down what you hear, as you listen.
You'll get about an hour max before your ears are worthless, and then you take a break and go at it again. I usually go 20-30min on, 30 min off doing something else in relative silence.
Play your music on a set of quality headphones (I use Sennheisers as my base test) and listen for the way they convey the sounds you are replicating.
There's always more.
Quote from: dalum on December 23, 2013, 05:06:54 PM
Quote from: BiGMaC on December 23, 2013, 12:20:07 AM
I helped build 2 vehicles with Alma Gates (Google her.. seriously) and her son While I lived in Payson... one was a Bronco which was national SPL champ for several years in the early 90's (180DB+) and also the national sound quality champ, an F250 SC.
Man first the BMW and now Alma. You're reminding me of my old TeamROCS days! She passed away not too long ago if you didn't know.
Yea... there was a big write-up in the Arizona Republic... passing of a legend.