Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => How To Articles => Topic started by: autobahn terror on January 25, 2018, 11:02:20 AM

Title: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 25, 2018, 11:02:20 AM
I just had to rebuild, (Clean), my TB actuator motor today as it seized on me last night. ECU threw P2112 and P2111 codes, (throttle stuck closed/open).

Anyone know where I can purchase just the motor assembly for the 2013+ SHO? I dont feel like buying a Whole TB just for the actuator motor, and I dont know how many times I can rebuild the one I have...
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: Macgyver on January 25, 2018, 07:59:58 PM
Well using this website. They are only $60 to $100 from a junkyard for a 2014 SHO

http://www.car-part.com (http://www.car-part.com)
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 29, 2018, 09:58:16 AM
I figured I would add the posts from the throttle body spacer thread to this one so its in one place... I had already cleaned the TB once, but had to do so again this weekend, So I'll gpo into what I had to do the second time in another post. This one is a recap...

After taking the TB apart, I believe the issue is that fact that a small boost leak thru the actuator housing is allowing some spray to enter the housing. The Return spring adjustment "set screw", if you can call that piece of nylon plastic that, has no gasket. Under high load/boost, there is a possibility that there is some leak to atmo via the blade shaft into the housing and out the return spring adjustment access. Also there is some play between the motor gear and the housing, which could let boost thru there as well. Another thing I noticed is if I torqued the actuator motor down to much the rotor shaft would bind on the brass bearing in the housing nipple. The motor housing is held in place by 4 screws, two are just small Philips head screws with lock washers, and the other two go thru the housing as into the TB itself. They are caddycorner to each other. There is a gasket here but it is thin, and the housing has a slight recess to it to accommodate easy assembly. A thicker gasket here I believe would be in order, plus some kind of cap to cover the return spring adjustment, (since I lost mine apparently), which is about the size of a Quarter.

After removing the TB and Opening up the Actuator motor assembly, I found that the rotor and stator, (the outer magnet shell), were severely corroded. I had to clean it out with a combo of WD-40 and liqui-molly intake sensor cleaner with some assistance from a nylon and a brass bristle brush. I also used some alky electronic cleaning wipes in between treatments. once clean I found it was still binding in the brass bearing that is pressed into the bottom of the motor housing, (the nipple that sticks out the motor assembly). I had to leave some WD-40 in that brass Bearing to get it to operate cleanly. Once reassembled, wind the return spring with needle nose pliers in the counter-clockwise direction until the blade returns to the closed position with authority, (eric cartmen).

Delete error codes with you Favorite code reader to remove pesky check engine light and its off to the thunder-dome, (Autobahn)...

Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 29, 2018, 11:06:33 AM
So I got stuck on the side of the Autobahn friday night with the same condition as before, P2112 & P2111 codes for stuck TB causing limp mode. I opened the actuator motor on the side of the road to find more gunk and corrosion had worked its way loose and was once again causing the motor to stick. It also turns out in hind sight that I rushed the first cleaning, (as evidenced by the ever persistent gunk), and in an effort to drive home from work set the return spring with two counter clockwise turns to get the blade to return to the closed position. It turns out that this should not have been needed and was indeed another indicator that the actuator was still dirty. This also means the actuator motor had to work twice as hard to open the TB...so only one counter clockwise turn of the return spring until the keys fit into their proper place should be used. if the TB is functioning properly this should be more than enough to return to the closed position.

SO, I once again removed and disassembled it, cleaned the whole thing again with alcohol wipes to start. I ended up filling the motor stator housing with lemon juice to dissolve any rust, as well as the return spring, I filled a shot glass with lemon juice and submerged it. Let it sit for a couple of hours (2-3), then pour it out into a bowl some chunks of rust came out with it and then brushed vigorously with a nylon brush. Cleaned out with alky wipes along the way and dried out with paper towel looking to see if more rust and gunk came out on the paper, it did, so I soaked it in lemon juice again for 2 more hours. Repeated these steps until the stator housing looked like new inside. Wiped with alky wipes one last time and let sit to dry. Lightly coated the entire interior with grease, (Vaseline), once dry as well as filled the brass bearing at the bottom with grease to ensure smooth operation.

After cleaning all the gearing off, I greased them ALL, on all sides with grease, and shoved some grease down into the pit behind the main gear which connects directly to the blade shaft in an attempt to plug it and catch some meth/water, most likely a futile attempt.

The motor itself was cleaned pretty well the first time i did it. I just cleaned it off real good with the alcohol wipes, but, since I couldn't separate the motor from the housing, I couldn't clean the contractors correctly, so I ended up plugging up the holes on the other side with grease and then filling the pit where the contactors and springs reside with rubbing alcohol and turned the motor vigorously. Once i did that for a min or 2 I dumped the alcohol onto a napkin and found that I had indeed worked some carbon loose. I did this 2 more times until I did not get carbon in the alcohol anymore. I coated the motor itself, (the portion that spins with the windings), with a thin coat of grease to prevent further corrosion.

Once all  this cleaning and greasing was done, I test fit and moved the assembly by hand and it feel MUCH better. The thing with the gear grease is it will pick up other dirt and grim as you work them so keep an eye on them and glean the dirty grease out and re-grease them until you dont dirty up the grease anymore. Also dont leave to much in there, remove the excess grease as you check it, extra grease is no good.

Once I was happy with the cleaning/greasing, I added some extra gasket to the stator housing seal by cutting out the side of a styrofoam cup and tracing out the outer edge of the mounting location. Cut an interior hole for the motor to slip thru, holes for the 4 screws and used it along with the stock gasket to increase seal with the housing. I hope this will lessen the ability for boost to work into there and out the sides. The stock gasket here is very thin rubber and also sits into a recess, which I think lessens its effectiveness.   

In hind sight I should have taken some pictures but I forgot, had hands full of grease and dirt, lazy blah blah blah excuses. I can take some later if anyone needs them.

I really need to find out how I lost the cap that is supposed to cover the return spring adjustment access. This missing cap is most likely the reason for this issue in the first place, as it allows boost to leak through the TB with little resistance and it brings the meth/water with it.

I hope this write up helps someone in the future if they start pulling P2112/P2111 codes and getting stuck in limp mode. This problem has the potential to leave you stranded so...enjoy.



Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: 6500rpm on July 29, 2018, 09:52:13 PM
I ran across this thread from your cross post. A few years back we must have replaced over 100 throttle body's on the 3.5l naturally aspirated engines for the dreaded P2111/2112 codes, I think at some point Ford issued a service recall with a new part number. You hit on something because they had to have changed the design. We had repeat failures until the new part number was released, after that the problem has pretty much disappeared. I know this thread is old, but you mentioned using Vaseline as a grease. That stuff has a really low melting point and if you haven't already done so, you might consider a lube that can handle the under hood temps.

Found it, but the TSB is for 2015/16
FSA 16B32 (Taurus   Chicago   September 28, 2015 through May 2, 2016) and 17B28-In all of the affected vehicles, the electronic throttle body (ETB) internal motor contacts may develop contamination resulting in increased electrical resistance.

TSB 16-0139.  Some 2015-2016 F-150, C-Max, Edge, MKS, Taurus and Flex and 2016 Expedition, Explorer, Escape, Fusion, Mustang, MKZ, MKX, Navigator, Transit and Transit Connect vehicles equipped with a 2.0L, 2.5L, 3.5L or 3.7L gasoline engine built on or before 31-May-2016.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on July 30, 2018, 11:07:46 AM
Hey There 6500,

Yes Vaseline has a very low melting point. I used it as a kid to grease up Rear Diffs on Gas RC cars and we had to clean and re-grease frequently. However, the gears in the TB are a Nylon material, with a pretty tight tolerance to boot. So I was actually hoping for it the thin out a bit so as to not gum up when it gets cold here in Germany. It actually still sticks open just a little bit at a slow speed coast, i dont have to touch the throttle at all at 25 or so MPH. The car basically rolls as if it was on Cruse control.

I bought a new TB but still havnt put it on as I am still putting together a home brewed Port inj meth Kit to alleviate the corrosion issue. I Just stopped boosting so high, and drive abit easier now, (so I dont spray). The old Rebuilt TB is still going strong now. I have the car in for some paint repair, (rock chips from construction zones), once I get it back All my parts should be here and Ill be doing a bunch of work to intake track. Charge pipes from Mike B, new Pump from Julio, Ported, polished, drilled and taped Intake from Super Six Motor sports, plus 8 new meth nozzles, one at the Intercooler, one pre-TB and one at each port. Hopefully this cuts down on the meth contamination in the New TB. I am also going to switch to a different fluid. I was using artic-X 30% Meth wiper fluid with about 5 bottles of HEET per Gallon, and now I am going to use pure 96% denatured ethanol. https://www.amazon.de/dp/B005EKXEQI/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B005EKXEQI (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B005EKXEQI/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B005EKXEQI) They will actually deliver this stuff to your door here in germany. Almost 10 Gallons for under $60, About 20 bucks cheaper than the Washer/HEET method for the same amount of volume, Even cheaper if I decide to add some Deionized water to it.

If anyone wants more details on the setup I am putting together let me know, although I think it been fairly well covered by others on here already.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: SHOdded on July 30, 2018, 02:06:52 PM
So now you will inject ethanol instead of methanol?
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on July 31, 2018, 04:26:38 AM
Yes, thats the plan, more or less e95 without the dinosaurs. Remember its denatured which means its about 10-15% Meth anyway. I still have a bunch of HEET laying around so the first couple of tanks will have some Extra meth in there too. I used to buy HEET and Washerfluid by the case in the PX here. When they ran out of HEET I would add rubbing alcohol, just more of it than I would the HEET as the octane rating for ISO is lower. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQ58GE9cjcAhUJJt8KHTbFA4EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnicoclub.com%2Farchives%2Falcohol-and-water-injection-the-basics.html&psig=AOvVaw38uS0zJPdw7NemCxsNHA4C&ust=1533111900586588 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQ58GE9cjcAhUJJt8KHTbFA4EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnicoclub.com%2Farchives%2Falcohol-and-water-injection-the-basics.html&psig=AOvVaw38uS0zJPdw7NemCxsNHA4C&ust=1533111900586588) I am also thinking about getting some NitroMeth from a hobby store to add to the mix, which I believe is all that this is: https://www.snowperformance.net/Nitro-Booster-p/sno-40007.htm (https://www.snowperformance.net/Nitro-Booster-p/sno-40007.htm)

I will be running the prometh .32 nozzles all around, so about 256 ml total nozzle capacity. What it will actually spray is another story, as the spray rates are highly dependent on the line pressure. I cant get to Promeths site right now as I am at work, but I think they rate their nozzles at 100 PSI while the Alky Controls Pump from Julio is rated to 250 PSI. https://www.alkycontrol.com/product-page/alkycontrol-methanol-injection-modified-pump (https://www.alkycontrol.com/product-page/alkycontrol-methanol-injection-modified-pump) There will be 2 T fittings and a bunch of Elbow fittings plus a 6 way distro block for the Ports. So I am not sure what the final @ WOT line Pressure will be. Ill just watch the IAT's & knock to determine if I need to add more nozzle. If I do ill only add a DO1, (100ml) from Devils own http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/nozzles/180-outside-mount-nozzles-do1.html (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/nozzles/180-outside-mount-nozzles-do1.html) at the Intercooler, and call it good cause I dont want to swamp the TB with Fluid again.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: SHOdded on July 31, 2018, 08:13:46 AM
I am sure you will be running your plan by Julio :) just in case there are variables that still need accounting for.  Ethanol has a higher boiling point than methanol would be my main concern tho as far as the cooling side of things.

https://www.thoughtco.com/boiling-point-of-alcohol-608491 (https://www.thoughtco.com/boiling-point-of-alcohol-608491)
The boiling point of ethanol or grain alcohol (C2H5OH) at atmospheric pressure (14.7 psia, 1 bar absolute) is 173.1 F (78.37 C).
Isopropyl Alcohol (isopropanol): 80.3°C or 177°F
Methanol (methyl alcohol, wood alcohol): 66°C or 151°F

mjhpadi can probably give you more knowhow about nitromethane, as he is into Top Fuel and dragsters :D
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1304-what-is-nitromethane-anyway/ (https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1304-what-is-nitromethane-anyway/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane)
The amount of air required to burn 1 kg (2.2 lb) of gasoline is 14.7 kg (32 lb), but only 1.7 kg (3.7 lb) of air is required for 1 kg of nitromethane. Since an engine's cylinder can only contain a limited amount of air on each stroke, 8.6 times more nitromethane than gasoline can be burned in one stroke. Nitromethane, however, has a lower specific energy: gasoline provides about 42–44 MJ/kg, whereas nitromethane provides only 11.3 MJ/kg. This analysis indicates that nitromethane generates about 2.3 times the power of gasoline when combined with a given amount of oxygen.

Octane ratings:
(http://www.247racefuels.com/uploads/4/9/0/1/49013761/24-7-race-fuels-better-stronger-consistent-racing-fuels-product-table-methanol-m1-ethanol-oxygenated-octane-booster-unleaded_1_orig.png)
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on August 02, 2018, 07:01:43 AM
Thanks for the info on the Boiling points, something to think about in the winter months when the temps are down to begin with. I would only use the NitroMethane as an additive to the meth tank, only about a 8-12 oz. to a 2 gal tank. Not trying to go over board with it, I though that the reason for the less required Oxygen required for it was due to it already having a large o2 chain in its make up, and burning it basically cracks the o2 out of it, allowing more to burn etc.etc.etc.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: SHOdded on August 02, 2018, 07:22:21 AM
The corrosive afterproduct, nitric acid, may or may not affect your plans with nitromethane.  Knowing firsthand how bad nitric acid is :) I would dig into that a bit deeper TBH.  Choosing your oxygenated fuel can be tricky.  You want as clean a burn as possible, so you have to look at what that oxygen is bound to.  Julio might know tho.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on August 02, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
Im not so worried about the aluminum having any issues with it as all aluminum has a fairly thick layer of oxidation on it naturally, plus the nitric acid is supposedly safe for aluminum. As far as the CAT's go that is a different story. It would probably eat may cat converters alive.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: irondoor19 on August 02, 2018, 01:31:01 PM
If you Would, your own build thread would be Welcome, just to show
a different Version of the install (a PITA) i know but "you are my Hero"
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on August 06, 2018, 08:23:58 AM
If I have the time tonight I will Test fit the nozzles and lines, take some photos... Put together a parts list... etc.etc.etc.

Ill start a new thread soon with more details for your viewing pleasure irondoor
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: Gray Brick on September 12, 2018, 03:22:03 PM
My 2nd throttle body is having the same issue again.

If you happen to have any pictures from your cleaning and lubing of the motor assembly please share.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 08, 2019, 10:45:32 AM
Some how I never saw Your post Gray Brick. I have since swapped over to a new TB, and I can get some photos for you, if you still want them. Let me know and I ill make a project of pulling apart the old one and taking some photos.

I also still need to setup that build log for my new meth setup that i want to do, outlined above. But Life has gotten in the way, not to mention winter and the German vehicle inspections, (i need to find someone how doesnt care about the braided lines all over the top of my engine). And oh yeah, ive been without my SHO since the fender bender in NOV
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: Gray Brick on January 15, 2019, 01:08:07 AM
I ended up with a 2nd throttle body freezing up in about 9 months.
Took the original throttle body and use moly lube on all of the parts... its still going strong.
The next time I need to rebuild I will be trying an aluminum anti-seize.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 15, 2019, 02:54:53 AM
Where are you spraying and what nozzle are you using? Did you end up losing your TB adjustment Cap?

I was building a Port injection setup but found out the german inspection would flip out about that, so now I am going to order and install a "Mist-a-pipe" from Prometh. Its basically a short section of charge pipe with 4 nozzle locations in it at 90 degree increments. I am going to put it right at the outlet of the intercooler and use 4 small nozzles, (i bought a bunch of 32cc nozzles for my port injection). My hope is to reduce the droplets that get into the TB. I will also add better gaskets to reduce boost leak through the the TB, which carries the meth into the motor assembly.

Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: SHOdded on January 15, 2019, 06:13:32 AM
I assume the nozzles are spread out so they are not facing each other?

https://prometh.com/collections/mist-a-pipe
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 15, 2019, 10:31:31 AM
I dont have my hands on one yet to verify the nozzle placement options. Once I do get one in I will let everyone know about that. They also have a different version of the same type of product, called the sniper series, which actually places the nozzle in the center of the charge pipe with a cross member as an anchor. I dont see the advantage to this. Really I just want to spray less, and further away from the TB to attempt not breaking it. Obviously the port injection method is the best option, maybe with a small single nozzle by the intercooler outlet just for charge cooling, but I have to figure out a good way to hide that while i am over here. I bought all stainless braided lines for the project, which in hind sight is stupid, because they dont really bend well unless you have a butt load of slack. I may get a bendy kit from them to set up some stainless pipes and attempt to make a discreet setup under the engine cover....
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: SHOdded on January 15, 2019, 01:24:06 PM
Hopefully it is a quick visual inspection and nothing more :D  I would also ask Mike about hotpipes with bungs at the opposite end of normal (at CAC instead of TB), black powder coated if you think it will help pass inspection. Ecopowerparts.com
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: Gray Brick on January 15, 2019, 06:15:06 PM
I am spraying a 9GPH nozzle pre throttle body. 100% meth.

No cap any longer... it blew off when my ATP+2 turbos over-boosted.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 16, 2019, 05:24:49 AM
Same here with the adjustment cap. I think that missing cap is a major contributor to the contamination of the motor assembly by allowing so much boost leak.

I was also spraying about that using the nozzle that came with the alky controls kit,  but I want to drastically cut the amount sprayed, I know you are spraying 100% meth, but 9GPH converts to just over 567ml a minute, pretty substantial. Most people see better results performance wise with less and spraying less will probably also save our Throttle bodies.

To give an example, I planned out my Port injection project with 6 32ml per min nozzles per port, plus two pre-TB, one just before it and two at the outlet of the Intercooler. All with 32cc nozzles it works out to about half the theoretical flow rate at 9*32= 288ml per min on paper. (1GPH=63.09 * 9 = 567.81 ml per min) Depending on who you talk to and want to believe, our setup doesn't need more than 400ML max, (a little under 7GPH).

I assume that you Dyno tuned your ride with your current setup, do you know if your tune is relying on the meth for extra fuel or just using it for safety and charge cooling? When I had my ride dyno'd they were able to achieve 430/430 with 93 octane and using the meth only for charge cooling and a safety net, however, when the meth really kicked in it would really fatten the fuel up and bog the motor some even some audible break up. Mix was about 70/30 Meth/water.

I also just noticed that you are running a HPFP. I would highly recommend that you experiment with your meth setup to find the sweet spot for flow rate vs returns as You dont really need the extra meth "fuel" unless your pushing for higher numbers.

Do you plan on progressing further on the fuel system? Stronger Low Pressure in tank pump? Bigger DI injectors? The Motor can make way more than the trans can take if you do... kinda why I am sitting at my current power level with no plan to go bigger for the moment, just working on dependability/operation of the meth "safety" system.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: Gray Brick on January 17, 2019, 11:34:36 AM
Originally I ran this much meth as a buffer for not enough fuel with the stock fuel pump.  With the larger HPFP I probably don't need to run this much meth but it runs so well right now I don't want to change anything.  I ran the 1/8th mile recently and the MPH equated to ~600HP to the crank.  With the larger turbos there is much more power available but I am happy... for now.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: ZSHO on January 17, 2019, 01:33:47 PM
That was my very intention was to add an additional 7th injector last year but after careful analysis it was not recommended in my case IIRC!
I also noticed Prometh does not offer the direct port setup using the 7th injector!

I would start off with a smaller Nozzle because sometimes less is more,especially when adding an additional injector,as you increase orfice it increases methanol. So adding another jet will add volume shot in...

It will ultimately need a retune and would leave the decision to your Tuner IMO!  Z
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: autobahn terror on January 18, 2019, 07:25:55 AM
YUP, you are correct, pro meth does not offer direct port kits for the SHO, I had to piece mine together with single serving parts from them and Devils Own. Havnt ran it yet, but I did come up with a solution for the additional nozzles... OR you could order a generic kit for a V8 and then order the other pieces to make it fit for what its worth, I just didnt feel like bending the steel straws at the time... if anyone is interested I can start a new thread with more details of my build plan and parts list so far...

Quote from: ZSHO on January 17, 2019, 01:33:47 PM
I would start off with a smaller Nozzle because sometimes less is more,especially when adding an additional injector,as you increase orfice it increases methanol. So adding another jet will add volume shot in...

YES indeed i agree, less is MORE. That is why i went with the smallest nozzles I could find @ 32cc.
Title: Re: Throttle Body Motor assembly
Post by: ZSHO on January 18, 2019, 08:22:19 AM
Feel free to start your own Dedicated thread here! Z

https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,98.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,98.0.html)
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