Reaching out to the community to help figure this out. Thank you in advance for all the expertise and advise.
The vehicle is a 2011 Ford Taurus SHO PP with the following mods
3BAR MAP
MD CAI
Catted DPs
2.5" Exhaust
stage 2 WM kit
Custom WM tune
So after a 3rd gear pull on the highway I got off and went to accelerate and noticed something was wrong. The car was lacking power and glanced at the boost gauge and nothing. I am now not able to build any kind of boost. when driving I can hear the turbos working but they sound not as efficient or like clogged, a slight whining sound rather than the spooling sound. Before I was able to build enough boost in neutral to make the BOVs open up, now nothing.
What I have done so far is power-vac the CAC clean, cleaned the MAP sensor, inspected and moved the front BOV to the back, with no luck. I loaded a stock tune and installed the stock 2 BAR MAP. I even replaced the boost control solenoid on the intake manifold since it seamed like a possible culprit and was fairly cheap. Still no luck. I have looked and listened for vacuum/boost leaks by putting it in drive with parking brake and brake and having someone give it gas and didn't find any. Still kinda difficult to hear much unless it is a rather large leak.
What are the chances the turbocharger wastegates have failed? and if one failed would that create low boost or no boost? What is the easiest way to test, or is there a single point of failure for the two wastgates? A recent data log shows them at 0% the majority of the log and only 80-100% for a few seconds. Anyway easy way to dislodge if they are stuck?
What other components would you suggest I look at?
Thanks again
No codes at all? Post a couple of logs here so it's easier to see what the car is doing. But yes, wastegates do fail, usually a broken seal, the orange one IIRC. But first, take off the engine cover and check the hoses atop the intake manifold. They are not all clamped from the factory, and one or more may have blown off. Also check the turbo piping for cracks/leaks at the clamp area. Usually happens on the underside of the hoses, where you would not see them at a cursory glance.
No codes, I have placed zip ties on all the hoses coming in and out if the boost control selonoid on the manifold.
I have not checked the turbo piping but did listen for leaks. I will do that mannana as well as follow the wastegate vacuum lines to make sure the are connected and in good shape.
I will provide log in the morning as well. thanks
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Sounds like a failure of the diaphragm on either one, or even both of, the factory/OEM BOV's.
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Quote from: bpd1151 on August 16, 2017, 12:33:46 AM
Sounds like a failure of the diaphragm on either one, or even both of, the factory/OEM BOV's.
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But something is telling the boost solenoid to drop to 0. So I suspected a bad boost solenoid but he replaced that...If the wastegate duty was normal I would think mechanical problem...Now I'm thinking electronic of some sort. And stock tune also.
X2- agree with SHOdded statement above and check the rear charge pipe to turbo for any visible oil in and around the pipe or possibly split or loose.
I would not rule out the front hose from CAC to Front turbo.
The whining noise has me a bit concerned.
How many miles? .Z
71k, the rear charge pipe did have some caking of oil and dirt not very bad. I am going to take a closer look at all the piping today, actually remove and inspect.
I have also provided the log AJP has taken a look and suggests the boost solenoid which I replaced is not telling the wastagates to actuate. I agree with him and think it is an electrical problem but without any codes it difficult to begin isolating the fault.
Either way I will get to inspecting the piping after I get the kids to school, this issue needs to get fixed before I go back to work next week. thanks again all.
Sounds similar to what happened to my SHO at its last track day. I never got it fixed cause it got totalled shortly there after. This is the thread (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7546.msg114499.html#msg114499 (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7546.msg114499.html#msg114499)). I tried changing that solenoid to no avail. I swapped to stock charge pipes, and back to my EPP pipes. Checked every line I could for a boost leak and never found one. No codes on my vehicle as well, and I could peak my boost out to ~10psi for 2ish seconds at best, at which point it would drop to 4 and go into limp mode essentially. I was going to change the wastegates/do a turbo swap as it seemed the only likely conclusion from what I was seeing, but never got to that point. Good luck.
Noooooo! Not what I wanted to hear derf! May be time for a billet wheel and tial wastgates from EPP. Hopefully they have a core in Stock. I leave town for about a month at the end of the month and don't want to leave her at home sick :(
Derf, by the way did you ever run a FORSCAN or any other device to possibly isolate the problem?
Sounds exactly like the issue I'm having at the moment as well... :|
Will be following this. My car is set to goto the dealership on the 22nd
Any insights on the log provided, AJP, Fomoco, StealBlueSho, ...?
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8215.0;attach=15236 (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8215.0;attach=15236)
Quote from: jbeez on August 16, 2017, 01:49:11 PM
Sounds exactly like the issue I'm having at the moment as well... :|
Will be following this. My car is set to goto the dealership on the 22nd
No they are different...jbeez your car is leaking boost....victorious' car is telling the wastegate to stay completely open by way of dropping wastegate duty to 0% which is why i thought maybe the boost solenoid was bad but he changed that. I wonder if the ecu is bad?. Would be rare....even the stock tune does it...very strange
So far I have checked all the hoses no leaks and actuated the front turbo wastegate selonoid arm manually. Going under the car to get the rear turbo. I also verified the EBC the Ford House provided was the exact same part number not just a look alike.
I am with AJP at this point, I think it's something electronic but without a code it's hard to isolate.
You all think it would hurt to disconnect the battery and spray connectors with electronic spray cleaner?
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An I found this. My MDesign CAI inlet was broken least of my worries but thought I would share, MDesign will likely replace for free. Not sure how that happened.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170816/437ea2319149a8615da8d706e5802336.jpg)
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This happened to me at the track one year, trapped much lower yet no CEL or running issues. Found this and all was well. I was pretty pissed when I couldn't figure it out.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhBu5XtafU)
Quote from: Victorious Secret on August 16, 2017, 03:00:38 PM
An I found this. My MDesign CAI inlet was broken least of my worries but thought I would share, MDesign will likely replace for free. Not sure how that happened.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170816/437ea2319149a8615da8d706e5802336.jpg)
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What's that loose 6mm hose behind the intake?
Due post some pics of he engine bay,thanks. Z
Either the meth pump or boost gauge boost reference hose. Disconnect and plugged the refrence coming off the EBC take sure the wasn't leaks between the two.
Here they are plugged back in.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170816/d63a2eac7f8b4c0e3b40c4faac8ff511.jpg)
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Well time for a Sonic drink break then the rear turbo WG arm, thanks for all your inputs.
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Quote from: Victorious Secret on August 16, 2017, 11:32:01 AM
Noooooo! Not what I wanted to hear derf! May be time for a billet wheel and tial wastgates from EPP. Hopefully they have a core in Stock. I leave town for about a month at the end of the month and don't want to leave her at home sick :(
Derf, by the way did you ever run a FORSCAN or any other device to possibly isolate the problem?
I never ran anything with forscan, just used my X4 to check for codes, and livelink to try and get logs. my issue was present with the stock tune and my AJP tune as well. In my case, I went to the track, after having some revisions done to the tune, and a few extra mods, hoping for a low 12's or magical 11's pass. previous best was a 12.87. So I expected atleast that. Ran a 12.9 on my first pass, and after that I could not get out of the high 13's/Low 14's(stock like performance). I noticed the boost gauge didnt seem to be at my commanded boost during one pass (commanded was between 15 and 16psi and it looked to be ~5PSI). Sent Brad the logs and went from there. I was kind of looking for an excuse to do upgraded turbos so the conclusion of either a turbo issue or wastegates didnt bother me too much, as it would have been a good excuse. I did notice my CAI was a bit loose during troubleshooting but that was really it. After a fresh cal download I could nail it and get to my peak boost command for a split second, at which point boost dropped off and it went into a more underboost like condition. I did talk to a local tuner/shop and they offered to diagnose but sadly I had to part ways with the SHO before that. It should be noted that in my case, I believe one of the turbos got damaged somehow, and the other was trying to work overtime to hit my commanded boost. My next step was going to be returning to stock entirely, and taking it in to a dealership to try and get it fixed under warranty, and if it turned out to be turbos/wastegates then upgrade after. Note that my car had less than 16k on it at the time.
Quote from: Victorious Secret on August 16, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
You all think it would hurt to disconnect the battery and spray connectors with electronic spray cleaner?
Certainly can't hurt at this point. The "bricking" of a PCM usually happens when flashing, and that is a pretty massive event. Maybe it IS just dirt or water in the connection ...
Well, I have just about exhausted everything I can do and think the vehicle may need to go in for a professional diagnosis before I throw two new turbos at it. Below is a link to a video clip so that you all can hear what it sounds like.
https://youtu.be/OlVqgejMg3A
Have you ever checked or cleaned out your CAC(intercooler)?.Z
Quote from: ZSHO on August 16, 2017, 06:27:40 PM
Have you ever checked or cleaned out your CAC(intercooler)?......... hopefully its not plugged. Z
Believe that was in his first post.
I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome and hope it's a simple fix covered under warranty!
Quote from: ZSHO on August 16, 2017, 06:27:40 PM
Have you ever checked or cleaned out your CAC(intercooler)?.Z
Yeah he mentioned that he did that early on but the problem is that the ecu is telling the wastegates to stay wide open and wgdc at 0%...so to me the problem starts way before the actual wastegates...they are just doing what they are told at this point....by why are they being told to do that?
An exhaust restriction of some sort? Was there any fuel being dumped into the cats at any point?
Nope
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How to verify turbocharger operation
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8191.0;attach=15237 (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8191.0;attach=15237)
Lots of good info on testing the turbocharging system
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Think I've found the culprit. Does this look normal? Guess I can stop denying my turbos are bad.
The other question I have is would this obvious fault cause the symptoms the PCM is doing by keeping the wastegates at 0%?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170818/5826cfb66e0cc4eae052c4e79db13d94.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170818/1071ea7e16f7f50c02b6ade77c41b383.jpg)
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Nope, not normal :( Looks like at minimum the seal has gone bad.
How many miles on the car? Any warranty by chance?
If not, I'd say it's time for a turbo upgrade :)
Quote from: sholxgt on August 18, 2017, 01:05:31 PM
Nope, not normal :( Looks like at minimum the seal has gone bad.
How many miles on the car? Any warranty by chance?
If not, I'd say it's time for a turbo upgrade :)
Seconded. For sure sure looks like the seal has blown. Brad may have more insight, but IMO, blown seal could be leading to turbulence, etc. within the signal the ECM/PCM is recieving, leading to the wastegate command as a fail safe of sorts.
How does the other turbo look?
No warranty, 72k and some change, just tried contacting Mike at EPP for a stock turbo upgrade with billet wheels.
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With the side to side play I had in my turbo(s) will I be able to simply replace the CHRA?
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Got two new OEM turbos and mounting hardware ordered anyone interested in oem outer housing for $250 a piece plus shipping? That's core refund price at Ford. Mike assured me the outer shells would work withe new CHRA just decide to go this route.
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Quote from: Victorious Secret on August 20, 2017, 09:41:32 AM
Got two new OEM turbos and mounting hardware ordered anyone interested in oem outer housing for $250 a piece plus shipping? That's core refund price at Ford. Mike assured me the outer shells would work withe new CHRA just decide to go this route.
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Due post a pic of the items up for sale with your "username" on a post it as per Forum rules in the dedicated section below,thanks and best of luck with the install. Z
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html)
My bad. Once they are off the vehicle I will put in classified section. Just gauging interest.
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Check the oil feed lines also as they are known to leak. Might be worth replacing outright at the same time.
Solid recommendation. After doing some research Chilton suggests removing the front lower subframe assembly to R&R the right hand turbo. Is this absolutely necessary or have other members completed a RH turbo swap on the SHO without removing the subframe? If so to any members how did you complete the task and what are some tips and techniques, I should keep in mind?
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Turbochargers and mounting harware arrived today. Then off to Revolutions Performance here in Colorado Springs for installation. I hope to have all this worked out by the end of the week. More to follow.
BTW, was just in San Antonio visiting family. God bless those in the path of Hurricane Harvey, my hat goes off to the volunteer and communities that are coming together to help one another out.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170828/4a8716c8adb651f57a8b697af9dadc78.jpg)
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Glad to hear the community feeling is alive & well. Best wishes & prayers.
So you could have used your old turbo with new CHRA from EPP?
I just replaced my PCV and ancillary parts but still have power loss. I'm hoping it's not the turbos but planning for the worst.
Quote from: ZSHO on August 20, 2017, 09:47:21 AM
Quote from: Victorious Secret on August 20, 2017, 09:41:32 AM
Got two new OEM turbos and mounting hardware ordered anyone interested in oem outer housing for $250 a piece plus shipping? That's core refund price at Ford. Mike assured me the outer shells would work withe new CHRA just decide to go this route.
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Due post a pic of the items up for sale with your "username" on a post it as per Forum rules in the dedicated section below,thanks and best of luck with the install. Z
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,30.0.html)
Absolutely the CHRA'S could have been replaced. The housing were undamaged. It seems pretty simple once the turbo's are out. I went this route for the warranty provided on the OEM parts and had a performance shop do the work since I really wasn't comfortable dropping the sub-assembly or engine cradle.
I will let you know and post the pics once the turbos are removed and replaced.
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Good to know. Interested in performance boost on those upgraded CHRA's too. Thanks.
Quote from: Victorious Secret on September 06, 2017, 09:19:33 AM
Absolutely the CHRA'S could have been replaced. The housing were undamaged. It seems pretty simple once the turbo's are out. I went this route for the warranty provided on the OEM parts and had a performance shop do the work since I really wasn't comfortable dropping the sub-assembly or engine cradle.
I will let you know and post the pics once the turbos are removed and replaced.
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Got my SHO back yesterday, special thanks to Revolutions Performance here in Colorado Springs for doing a phenomenal job.
She easily hitting and holding commanded boost, now to finish up the tuning.
The problem was the front turbo was completely blown, with tons of side to side shaft play. The fins had hit the sides of the housing. The rear turbo was good but I had both turbos replaced.
Thanks for all the help and support you guys. Even though the outcome was near worst case scenario the SHO is back on the road and better than ever.
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Jaw dropping silence. Wow, blown turbo. These things crap at a moment's notice. Gotta b careful making mods to an obviously complex system.
Hooray for getting up and running so quick, always a mood lifter!
Definitely, the symptoms were the most interesting to me I never got an underboost DTC (PO0299 iirc) and it seems like the pcm/ecu wasn't commanding boost. Perhaps a safe guard if the computer recognizes way inefficient boost levels it will not command boost. Not sure but glad to have her back.
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Good move on getting both turbos replaced, and wish for the best :thumb: