Damn you F150 EB owners..... >:D
AMR..... I (and SEVERAL other SHO owners) can only pray that your company can mock up something for our specific vehicle like you did for those dasterdly F150 owners.
:sos:
Great to see a full system, looks splendid! Welcome aboard! Any possibilities for the transverse engined crowd?
Quote from: SHOdded on October 21, 2013, 06:19:35 PM
Great to see a full system, looks splendid! Welcome aboard! Any possibilities for the transverse engined crowd?
You can't fit an intercooler on our cars....
Tsk tsk tsk....
Knowing that you, Darrell, myself. FirstSHO As well as a couple others, are leading the way as far as pioneering new mods.....
I'm sure where there is a will, there is a way...
I will bet that whether it is AMR, or some other vendor, I'm positive a solution can be found.
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Sheetmetal work may be involved, is my guess/fear.
An air to air front Mount won't physically fit. Unless someone invents tartarus technology it won't happen. You can do a water to air if you take out stock air box, I'll be doing that soon.
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I know there's some availability of room ABOVE the front frame rail, between the area behind the upper grille, and the factory intercooler/radiator combo.....
My guess would be any system that could be made to fit there would involve custom fab work, etc.
Or, perhaps an entirely different mounting area/solution.
Either way, i'm sure us lowly SHO folks would appreciate any type of enhancment (to the factory system).
Whether that entails R&D work by an interested vendor, or w/e you may be conjuring up in your dungeon 4DR.
Muahahahahahahaha......
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You can't fit a core big enough to support the HP requirement there. I'll keep saying it.... You could fit a 200HP core there but what's the point. 500HP cores are BIG not something tiny. You just can't fit one there.
Maybe replumb the AC lines to get a jacket around the intercooler, provide a "boost" of sorts to the IC?
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on October 21, 2013, 08:47:32 PM
You can't fit a core big enough to support the HP requirement there. I'll keep saying it.... You could fit a 200HP core there but what's the point. 500HP cores are BIG not something tiny. You just can't fit one there.
Just for the sake of argument, what exactly gets in the way of mounting an air to air intercooler big enough to support our HP needs? I realize that's like asking "What gets in the way of adding 1 quart of oil to an already full 5 quart jug?" But what I'm getting at is, what can be removed, relocated, etc. to make room? I know the intercooler would be big, but could the dimensions be tinkered with making it wider and shorter, or taller and thinner, etc. to fit?
I believe you know way more than me on this subject and you are probably right. However, I also agree with BPD. Nothing is impossible.
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I don't believe you can fit a 500HP core where you guys want to put it, definitely can't fit a 750HP core. Water to air will fit but 500HP core is pretty decently sized.
Here's some ebay 500HP intercoolers.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.X500hp+intercooler&_nkw=500hp+intercooler&_sacat=0&_from=R40 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.X500hp+intercooler&_nkw=500hp+intercooler&_sacat=0&_from=R40)
Now if you remove the front bumper support and just do some type of aluminum (not any type of crash support) bumper mount you MIGHT be able to sneak something in there.
On the Flex it's a NO GO, there's just no room with our bumper cover.
Need to figure out how to get this one in there:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GODSPEED-universal-spec-r-turbo-intercooler-fmic-30x12x4-3-in-out-800hp-/190751307372 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/GODSPEED-universal-spec-r-turbo-intercooler-fmic-30x12x4-3-in-out-800hp-/190751307372)
The solution is SIMPLE... Add it to the front of the car in front of the bumper & grille and paint it WHITE! OOPs???? My Bad!
Haha, top mount intercooler like a subaru? That would take some sheet metal work, I'm sure. It would probably also be less efficient.
Quote from: bpd1151 on October 21, 2013, 06:36:50 PM
Tsk tsk tsk....
Knowing that you, Darrell, myself. FirstSHO As well as a couple others, are leading the way as far as pioneering new mods.....
I'm sure where there is a will, there is a way...
I will bet that whether it is AMR, or some other vendor, I'm positive a solution can be found.
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Quote from: SHOdded on October 21, 2013, 06:19:35 PM
Great to see a full system, looks splendid! Welcome aboard! Any possibilities for the transverse engined crowd?
Quote from: bpd1151 on October 21, 2013, 05:37:08 PM
Damn you F150 EB owners..... >:D
AMR..... I (and SEVERAL other SHO owners) can only pray that your company can mock up something for our specific vehicle like you did for those dasterdly F150 owners.
:sos:
Thank you all for the kind words.
Seems our thread got split up. No worries.
We would not have problem designing a kit for this vehicle as long as the demand was there.
However we currently do not have this vehicle in-house. Therefore a "donor" would be needed.
-Robert
Seriously... 4DR, when I removed my stock grille and installed the Carriage works one, I removed a big plastic grille back panel. The Carriage works grille also sticks out slightly farther than stock 3 bar Ford grille. So, I'm wondering if it might be possible to place the Air to Air intercooler a bit higher and behind the top grille. Will check out space when I get to FL where I can work without a snow suit and gloves. Thinking there may be space for the 500 hp unit.
Which of the water to air units are you considering to go where the stock CAI fits?
Similar to EBB.....
When I removed my factory grilles (both upper & lower) and swapped them for (what was at the time ---Mobsteel) custom grilles....
I too removed a good size chunk of all that plastic crap from the factory set up.
I just recall off hand, due to the fact I've had my front clip off multiple times at this point, that there was / is a "decent" amount of room behind that upper grille area, just atop the front bumper.
I'd be inclined to think that something could be fab'd for sure, & installed in that location.
I would say w/e vendor does decide to take on the project, that they should just automatically calculate for those SHO owners rocking the PP Pkg from the factory, as those include the Auxiliary Coolers, in particular the Aux Trans Cooler which takes up the space in that lower grille opening / area.
Not to mention, there may be other goof balls out there (besides me) who have the NON-PP Pkg from the factory, but retro-fitted those Auxiliary Coolers, so my lower grille opening is occupied.
I'm out clothes shopping with my 12yr old at the moment, & taking her out to dinner after that, so i'm not home....
However, where is AMR's facility located out of curiosity?
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I believe the aux oil and trans coolers weren't added until 2013, due to the fact they were added for the police cars. I don't believe the 2010 to 2012 SHO's with PP have the oil and trans cooler. I hope in wrong. That would be 2 less things to add.
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True, but some people added them to their earlier vehicles. Personally, I need a tranny cooler.
FracaSHO..... you are correct.
However, EBB got my point directly.....
There are gonna be, if not quite a few who have already, added that Aux Tranny Cooler, & the Auxiliary Oil Cooler.
I can't even begin to tell you how much both of those have helped me in my own application.
Much like I believe having (some company) fab up an upgraded intercooler for our cars.
If not, y'all should pay close attention to the developments 4DRHTRD is undertaking in the water/air cooler option.
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Nobody loves the sports. =[
i need a intercooler too!!!!!
Problem with air to air isn't just having the room to fit, it needs to be in the right spot to be at its full potential.
Can anything be done to the factory intercooler to it?
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A top mount with a hood scoop would be an interesting option but not the best option..
Quote from: bpd1151 on October 24, 2013, 07:45:44 PM
However, where is AMR's facility located out of curiosity?
We have 2 locations.
NY & CT
-Robert
Yep, finally got onto an actual notebook and looked up your info.
For anyone interested, particularly you SHO owners on the far East Coast.....
Please visit AMR's website ------> http://automasteramr.com/about/ (http://automasteramr.com/about/)
By providing AMR staff with your vehicle for testing and/or design work of a hypothetical, proposed intercooler upgrade, this will likely prove beneficial not only to you as an individual donor, but also the SHO community overall.
Thanks AMR for considering this potential product, and hopefully someone here steps up and contacts your company to work out the particulars.
Mike :beer:
where in ny are you located?
AMR,
If you build it we will....
buy it !!!!!
Assuming the benefits justify the cost and effort of the upgrade. I love the idea of a simple intercooler swap since if probably wouldn't really effect the car in any other way other than to just add power.
Great opportunity!! Thanks bpd and AMR!
If the "/about" link is dead... just use http://store.automasteramr.com/ (http://store.automasteramr.com/) to get the site
Quote from: Josephm on October 25, 2013, 01:21:40 AM
A top mount with a hood scoop would be an interesting option but not the best option..
It works well on the Subaru's since they have room behind the top mount for airflow. I think our engine bays would be too cramped to fit the intercooler, and have good airflow across it.
What about running two smaller side mount intercoolers like you see done in aftermarket setups on...I wanna say Vettes?
That is a lot of piping though.
Thinking an inter cooler for each turbo? Is that possible?
Guys, I'll see what I can do. I'll take my car to the shop hopefully this weekend and see if any of the cores there will fit. I have a unmodded 2013. Was going to order some stuff from livernois way back, but some issues caused me from pulling the trigger. I need to stop playing around and get to modding. I'll try to report back this weekend.
Strong first post, I know.
Having had the front bumper cover off numerous times, my opinion only, is that since any option would be custom to begin with.....
There does seem to be enough room behind the front, upper grille, above the actual bumper.
Those that have the 2013+ PP option, or for those who have retro fitted the Aux Tranny Cooler in pre-'13 model years, designing anything below the front bumper is not an option due to the Aux Tranny Cooler being in the way.
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Quote from: bpd1151 on January 31, 2014, 11:17:52 AM
Having had the front bumper cover off numerous times, my opinion only, is that since any option would be custom to begin with.....
There does seem to be enough room behind the front, upper grille, above the actual bumper.
Those that have the 2013+ PP option, or for those who have retro fitted the Aux Tranny Cooler in pre-'13 model years, designing anything below the front bumper is not an option due to the Aux Tranny Cooler being in the way.
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Mike I'm going to disagree again, there's only enough room for maybe a 200HP core there, it will be shiny pretty pretty but not efficient. You need a good sized area to be able to get a big enough core in there. Maybe if you hacked out the bumper support massively it could be done.
We can agree to disagree.
Love 'ya.
Smooches. :wub:
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Quote from: bpd1151 on January 31, 2014, 11:22:22 AM
We can agree to disagree.
Love 'ya.
Smooches. :wub:
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Here's some core sizes and HP that they support. Remember you'll have to weld on end tanks that will increase the size about 4-6" (at least) for piping.
Don't forget about the depth either, you'll need some area front and back to fit it. Also blocking the 80% of the intercooler with bumper mask doesn't help either.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/intercoolers (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/intercoolers)
Hate to see people spend money on an intercooler upgrade and not get a real benefit, an air to air bumper area intercooler is going to be at least 1200 if not closer to $2K due to piping, fittings, intercooler, brackets etc. Would suck to spend that and pick up 10HP....
With Bigmac's help by using his car after the downpipes, hot pipes and cold air we can look at creating a water to air kit which would be much more efficient and offer bigger results and support higher HP in the long run as well.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on January 31, 2014, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: bpd1151 on January 31, 2014, 11:22:22 AM
We can agree to disagree.
Love 'ya.
Smooches. :wub:
Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
Here's some core sizes and HP that they support. Remember you'll have to weld on end tanks that will increase the size about 4-6" (at least) for piping.
Don't forget about the depth either, you'll need some area front and back to fit it. Also blocking the 80% of the intercooler with bumper mask doesn't help either.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/intercoolers (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/intercoolers)
Hate to see people spend money on an intercooler upgrade and not get a real benefit, an air to air bumper area intercooler is going to be at least 1200 if not closer to $2K due to piping, fittings, intercooler, brackets etc. Would suck to spend that and pick up 10HP....
With Bigmac's help by using his car after the downpipes, hot pipes and cold air we can look at creating a water to air kit which would be much more efficient and offer bigger results and support higher HP in the long run as well.
My wife's gonna kill me... :chop: It may be worth a look... something creative like a "scoop" in the lower soft "air dam" (the one we destroy on curbing) and a mounting behind there.. maybe short vertically and the width of the car....who knows. I agree that it's tight and may not work. I also agree that $2K for minimal gain would be just "modding 'cuz I can", an expensive and fruitless endeavor
I'll stay open minded for now.
BTW.... do folks remember when we could raise the hood of a car, crawl in the engine compartment and stand on the ground beside the engine to work on it?....
Well i do want a front mount.. And if we could get the fueling system figured out. Then for the people using Water meth can go back to using a 50/50 mix and use it for its extra fuel and chemical intercooling benifit.
Still a slighly undersized IC that is mounted to get good air flow would still do better than the factory IC.
Quote from: panther427 on February 02, 2014, 04:01:01 PM
Well i do want a front mount.. And if we could get the fueling system figured out. Then for the people using Water meth can go back to using a 50/50 mix and use it for its extra fuel and chemical intercooling benifit.
Still a slighly undersized IC that is mounted to get good air flow would still do better than the factory IC.
Fueling is ready if you want to cut your wiring harness to stock fuel pump, I can sell the upgraded pump setup now if people want them.
Didn't get a chance to get into the shop this weekend. Got called into work this weekend. Hopefully this coming weekend though.
Not sure how much space you guys have on the SHO, but what about a smaller intercooler in the lower grill that supplements the factory one. Forge makes one that works well on the 2.0t vw.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/auditrance/4723fb2fb8717193d7e93f2d38512434.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/auditrance/b92181c66cbacb2a39f79954b1a47a67.jpg)
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/auditrance/87c71ddd35c715675f2c1497fcd616a5.jpg)
There is a factory intercooler buried between the radiator and ac condenser on those cars similar to the ecoboost. The boost hose makes a Y and goes through both intercoolers increasing the cooling capacity. Just brainstorming.
Man that is a lot of piping!
Might work smaller... but the sensors for autopark and ACC are behing the plates lateral to the lower grill. If memory serves 4DR was talking to a manufacturer... maybe he'll chime in here.
There will also be more of a pressure drop through two intercoolers. How that would relate to the benefit is questionable. IDK
The only addition piping is the Y hoses going to the extra front mount. That's normally a single hose to the factory intercooler. Everything else is factory setup. Looks like a lot because they changed all the other hoses to silicone. I think they are getting 1-2 psi drop with 20* lower peak temp IIRC. This is on a chipped vehicle of course.
whats the cost on these for there platform?
Interesting idea... Mike and I have contemplated this location... but it will take removing the entire front clip to find out about the space.
Since each turbo has a dedicated IC inlet nipple I guess there would have to be 2 Y hoses for this setup. I can tell you that under the hood it gets tight real quick in the SHO
By "chipped" I take it you mean tuned.... Yes, without a tune it likely wouldn't make any difference in boost/performance due to the SHO torque based algorithms... boost level would have to be commanded to be increased. Why?... As I understand it (don't claim to be an expert at all) The torque could likely be generated at lower boost with cooler (denser) air so the ECU would not normally ask for more boost (to make the air denser by compressing it more)... Dj saw this in winter driving as opposed to summer driving when watching boost levels... The tuners explain it better. Whether the 1-2psi drop in pressure across the dual IC setup is an IC volume thing or due to better air cooling IDK. I also wonder if this pressure drop and increased space could over-stress the OEM turbos... again IDK
I do think this kind of setup could be an answer and be exploited to the benefit of increased performance
Sorry my alter ego is in the VW/ Audi community and we always referred to a tune as being chipped. Old habits. Also the reason I remembered the twintercooler setup.
Ultimately water to air would be the best choice for tight spaces but I also understand the appeal of air to air for it's simplicity since it doesn't have a pump or water to worry about and just works.
Quote from: adamantium on March 15, 2014, 01:26:54 AM
Ultimately water to air would be the best choice for tight spaces but I also understand the appeal of air to air for it's simplicity since it doesn't have a pump or water to worry about and just works.
I agree whole heartedly... my wish is water to air... but space available (size of the IC) vs. efficiency (performance) and tempered by cooling airflow availability (volume per unit time) will ultimately make the decision... Still I love the idea and kudos for the find! :beer2:
Quote from: adamantium on March 15, 2014, 01:26:54 AM
Ultimately water to air would be the best choice for tight spaces but I also understand the appeal of air to air for it's simplicity since it doesn't have a pump or water to worry about and just works.
Unless something major has changed A2A is more effcient that A2W from what i have learned
I quickly did some digging, and came up with none of the pictures I was looking for... however, back in my fbody days, folks experimented with horizontally mounting the intercooler under the engine bay. I do not know how effective this was at cooling. Some even cut into the wheel wells, and had twin intercoolers albeit they were smaller intercoolers.
Just thinking outside of the box
K, I may have missed some threads here but what is hard about the AWIC set up? I have had not had issues with them before. As for room... relocate battery and air box? Replace the factory intercooler with the AWIC heat exchanger? As much as we know CAI kits don't really help they do allow for making up some room under the hood. ;)
I have a bunch of nitrous parts laying around from my Mustang's previous build... ive thought about doing a custom IC spraybar setup hooked up to a WOT switch.
This would def help its efficiency, just not sure I can get it in there seeing that its sandwiched in there like that.
People who've had front end apart, what say you?
I contemplated swapping the intercooler, if I were to do it I would check out mounting 2 individual intercoolers to each turbo, similar to what the 300zx. I did a quick search and came upon the intercooler kit below, 2 smaller intercoolers would be easier to fit instead of 1 large one. It also seems to be rated for 650hp.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Intercooler-Kit-Nissan-300ZX-CZ32-GZ32-VG30DETT-FMIC-Fairlady-Filter-/131017002450?_trksid=p2054897.l4275 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Intercooler-Kit-Nissan-300ZX-CZ32-GZ32-VG30DETT-FMIC-Fairlady-Filter-/131017002450?_trksid=p2054897.l4275)
I plan to hopefully fab something up to swap intercoolers mainly due to the water that some people are finding in their EcoBoost intercoolers (mainly the F150 crowd though other vehicles have been plagued as well). My plans are to start with a intake system and then free-flowing exhaust from the down-pipe back to help the car breath more efficiently. After those breather mods are done a reworked intercooler setup with data logged/dyno tuning should make a noticeable difference due to the ability to tune more aggressively.
Quote from: Spartn27 on May 09, 2014, 10:39:27 AM
I contemplated swapping the intercooler, if I were to do it I would check out mounting 2 individual intercoolers to each turbo, similar to what the 300zx. I did a quick search and came upon the intercooler kit below, 2 smaller intercoolers would be easier to fit instead of 1 large one. It also seems to be rated for 650hp.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Intercooler-Kit-Nissan-300ZX-CZ32-GZ32-VG30DETT-FMIC-Fairlady-Filter-/131017002450?_trksid=p2054897.l4275 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Intercooler-Kit-Nissan-300ZX-CZ32-GZ32-VG30DETT-FMIC-Fairlady-Filter-/131017002450?_trksid=p2054897.l4275)
I plan to hopefully fab something up to swap intercoolers mainly due to the water that some people are finding in their EcoBoost intercoolers (mainly the F150 crowd though other vehicles have been plagued as well). My plans are to start with a intake system and then free-flowing exhaust from the down-pipe back to help the car breath more efficiently. After those breather mods are done a reworked intercooler setup with data logged/dyno tuning should make a noticeable difference due to the ability to tune more aggressively.
Just FYI the water issue doesn't happen to the Flex/SHO/MKT/MKS as it's sandwiched between radiator and A/C condenser. I also think you're going to have a hard time find a place for two air to air intercoolers. :)
Making the IC more efficient in a cold/damp environment will bring on condensation issues not abate it.
What about just as good after market direct fit. A bar and plate style with better inlet and outlet tanks. There is room to improve the stock inter cooler. Even the connection on the inlet side under the air box could be much better.. most after market diesel inter coolers are basically the stock size. Sometimes a bit thicker but most of the improvement is from better flow and pressure drop.
Quote from: panther427 on May 12, 2014, 10:49:30 AM
What about just as good after market direct fit. A bar and plate style with better inlet and outlet tanks. There is room to improve the stock inter cooler. Even the connection on the inlet side under the air box could be much better.. most after market diesel inter coolers are basically the stock size. Sometimes a b*tch thicker but most of the improvement is from better flow and pressure drop.
Lol didn't realize that b*tch was a unit of measurement. :P
Good catch. Fixed ;-)
Quote from: panther427 on March 15, 2014, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: adamantium on March 15, 2014, 01:26:54 AM
Ultimately water to air would be the best choice for tight spaces but I also understand the appeal of air to air for it's simplicity since it doesn't have a pump or water to worry about and just works.
Unless something major has changed A2A is more effcient that A2W from what i have learned
Coming from a modified and A2W intercooled GTP I would agree. The holy grail for the GTP crowd was to figure out how to make a A2A intercooler work with an Eaton SC. A2W was okay (drop temp by 50-150 degrees depending on size) but efficiency was poor and you could heat soak them easily on a track day. Once that happens you are sitting, while you run the pump and the fans cooling the water down.
Theres plenty of room to fit a big intercooler, once the stock ic is removed move the condenser in its place, cut some of the front crash bar, if you still need more room put a custom mesh grille forward more.
Im gonna run 2 separate smaller ICs for each turbo, you could have one above the other to the right of the radiator freeing up more air flow to your radiator, and join them after the ICs. The smaller ones have 3-4.5
Quote from: ThePresidential on November 01, 2022, 10:48:29 PM
Theres plenty of room to fit a big intercooler, once the stock ic is removed move the condenser in its place, cut some of the front crash bar, if you still need more room put a custom mesh grille forward more.
Im gonna run 2 separate smaller ICs for each turbo, you could have one above the other to the right of the radiator freeing up more air flow to your radiator, and join them after the ICs. The smaller ones have 3-4.5
This thread is 8 years old. There are plenty of ways proven to do this now from a front mount setup to a thicker factory replacement.
Even still, ive seen 2 guys without the gearhead IC, and the price people pay for that which is really a fancier stock IC. People with out platform just dont seem to have an interest in IC
Quote from: ThePresidential on November 02, 2022, 10:55:21 PM
Even still, ive seen 2 guys without the gearhead IC, and the price people pay for that which is really a fancier stock IC. People with out platform just dont seem to have an interest in IC
Only 2 without? Look a little harder. There are tons of FMIC setups. There is also a big interest in IC.
https://schwartzep.com/front-mount-intercooler-kits (https://schwartzep.com/front-mount-intercooler-kits)
https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=10551.0 (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=10551.0)
https://www.ortizperformance.com/product-page/mishimoto-universal-race-edition-intercooler-j-line (https://www.ortizperformance.com/product-page/mishimoto-universal-race-edition-intercooler-j-line)
Or even the dreaded https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/superchargers-and-turbochargers/2015/ford/taurus (https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/superchargers-and-turbochargers/2015/ford/taurus)
Has anyone seen these pre intercooler piping? It
That piping would need a very specific mounting location/application. Sitting in the engine bay, I would think those fins and the piping would heat soak. That would actually make the piping hotter. It would need to be in the flow of fresh cold air. I am not sure where that would fit in this vehicle.
You can pick the size thats the same as your charge pipes and you can replace it anywhere you have a section of straight pipe. The fins are maybe 1/2-1/2 so i wouldnt see any problems installing it anywhere.
As for heat soak, as long as it has access to air from the grille itd be fine. I was thinking about wrapping the thing with a sheet of aluminum and putting ducts on the ends to get the best cooling affect.