Ecoboost Performance Forum

and it cost a small kings ransom, I am both excited and hopeful i haven't just dumped a bunch of cash down the drain.


(http://www.fusionspec.net/uploads/monthly_2016_09/20160922_213745.jpg.ff7c0abe9f0d2c945957a6439fe1c09f.jpg)

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 22, 2016, 11:08:28 PM
and it cost a small kings ransom, I am both excited and hopeful i haven't just dumped a bunch of cash down the drain.

You'll be thinking about all the past products instead in regards to that! I felt the VERY same way when starting on just ACES IV...Welcome to the Fluid elite club once you get it in. Don't worry, this stuff is legit serious.

JGR over at 2g has been messaging me asking if he's sure it isn't a "placebo" because he's already starting to feel the gasoline formula alone.

I see you got the EFI version of ACES IV, which is good for cars well deep into the mileage and...probably carbon-caked on the intake valves (Catch cans will NEVER be enough on their own). That helps start cleaning them back up along with the Motor Oil. I simply was given regular ACES IV since my motor was new from the get go.

Clean up your sooty chrome exhaust housings if you haven't, for once it kicks in you'll see how much cleaner they run. Every single Fusion I've seen has nasty dirty sooty exhaust housings. The MKZs as well...except for mine! Well I can't say how the 3.0T is without ACES IV but I don't want to find out anyways. I know the stock 2.0 Engines are rich sooty pigs however. Even tuned, it still would soot up just not as fast.

You and Brian sold me, well that and 3 weeks of digging into forums all the way back to some of the early Dodge communities that use his stuff. I have been tuning cars since about 2001 and working on them since I was 17. I have never seen a fluid that does not start a flame war with people split near 50/50 on "it sucks" vs "its awesome". There seem to be only 2 kinds of people when it comes to Brian's fluid.


people who have used BND and people who haven't. If you use it, you are hooked. That is pretty impressive particularly for the flame ridden internet.


I have put a ton of work in and I am running my car harder than any car I have before and want to take care of it as best as possible while getting the most out of my effort this season and in the future. Being an AMSOil user I'm already a sucker for higher grade fluids despite some naysayers. I decided I might as well go all in. It's a bit cheaper to get it all up front anyway it seems. This may be my best change after a tune and IC.


I trust my research but the critic in me is screaming. I will let the logs, oil analysis and track slips be my guide.


JGR mentioned my AcesIV was a different color, only thing I can think of is I stressed to Brian how hot I run the car and how much I push it with many trips to the track and lots of runs + DD duty in boston traffic. I will trust his judgement there. I do notice brian marked my trans fluid as 6f55 fluid. I am sure it is likely fine but I think I will call tomorrow just too make sure.

I made a similar purchase a while back.

I Didn't get around to switching everything as I ended up not much driving for an extended period.

Still need to do coolant, RDU, and PTU which is sitting in my garage.

I'm gonna swap out to a 160 stat and 1 step colder plugs at the same time.

Need to order more oil and get some tranny fluid.

Hope my ACES IV shows up quick as I just used up the last of my race formula.

Yeah EFI version is to help with those higher crankcase blow by chances, which will result from all the things you've mentioned.  But more importantly the fact your engine will probably have some intake crud to brake down.  Might be in your interest to monitor your intake valves over time.

The trans fluid is the same replacement as 6F55 since both 6F35 and 6F55 use Mercon LV. Chemically, it'll be the same and I'm sure that is what Brian intended.

I'm still constantly pulling my oil dipstick and waiting to see it become darker...but it hasn't yet. The trans oil still smells just as fresh after putting miles on it too.  Mercon LV smells worse in comparision.

Before trying a 100 octane tune, for best protection I would get all the fluids in. I only was testing with just ACES IV to check for any misfires or knocks under WOT, but they did not happen. That was my selling point I could believe in ACES and QuantumBlue.

All I have left is the AWD fluids. It was for the very reasons as you habe said, I did too prior. Looking for any bad proven results against the products but nothing...all users have been on the good side and no blamed motor failures. I stuck with Amsoil but looks like its time to say sayonara.

Plus all his QuantumBlue goods keep warranty in tact as an extra bonus.

Trying to get booked at an AWD dyno just to see what power I'm really putting out.

Performance anxiety, eh?  LOL!  The hard part is going about it methodically so you can get kind of an objective idea how much return on investment there is.  In my own selfish interest, I want you to proceed apace :) as I am in the process of "upgrading" one of the cars in the fleet and highly value you all's contributions.  TIA.

I run ACES IV is all three of my vehicles.  Its kind of a pain to constantly and meticulously add it to the tank each time, but I continue to do it because it works.

My cars are stock, so the only tangible evidence I can provide is MPG
In my wife's escape (ecoboost) she sees an immediate MPG increase for the tank. 
The SHO doesnt put up quite the same increase, but its there.  Some preliminary datalogging showed that I also maxed out the learned octane ratio which should be good when it comes time to tune (and I think proves the claim of 102 octane).  Prior to ACES, the LOR was close to, but not quite maxed using Exxon 93
I also run it in my 95 Mustang GT (5.0L) however do not drive it enough to notice if ACES does anything here.  It acts as a fuel stabilizer in this case, so I dont have to put in Sta-Bil

I actually did an 87+ACESIV vs 93 raw vs 93+ACESIV on my MKZ not too long ago.

The moment I put 87+ACES mix in, it wasn't too long before my LOR dropped from 100% (I use % format in FORScan). It declined to 67%. Car also did have a clear moment it retard power and timing quite harshly. I started this car with its very first tank fill on ACESIV + 93 Octane (Shell V-Power).

I did a PCM reflash which resets the LOR to 0% and relearn. After awhile, the vehicle went up to 100% But it still had 87+ACESIV mix going.

After some time, I switched back to 93 only. Sure enough without ACES IV, my LOR declined to 48%...ouch. Not to mention the butt dyno could definitely feel reduction in performance. Seeing it decline, I immediately added in the missing ACES dose and reset PCM to recalibrate LOR back to 100% faster.

So at least on my MKZ, while still stock tuned, it definitely measures fuel stability changes for octane performance above 93. The cap on octane must be over 100 or so if the car is retrained with a PCM reflash.

That's a tip I tell anyone if you can and have access to FORScan is to reset your PCM parameters to readjust fuel quality faster. Otherwise the car will retard due to being adapted to a higher quality, then dropping in said quality. Also, I noticed a battery disconnect does not fully reset everything. LOR stays even if the battery is disconnected.

Its an extra step at gas stations but so worth it. My MPG average on my MKZ is 2+ mpg over EPA estimate WITH 80 mph speed averages. It would be higher if I didn't enjoy such spirited driving! It got higher as I added the QuantumBlue products in.

48% with 93 seems low. Mine was in the 90s with just 93

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Mine is 96% with just quality 93 octane.  48% would have me questioning the quality of the fuel and the accuracy of the reading.

Here are my thoughts as to why it happen as it did:

As I mentioned before, without a full PCM reset on the LOR, the car will adapt and learn based on whatever average knock sensor readings it decides to be safe for timing and power adding.

During the retrain period, LOR increases by 25% at various mileage intervals. Usually it achieves 100% between 100 to 150 miles, from my reset playthroughs. Afterwards it stays as long knock readings stay stable from the sensors.

Once at 100%, it will stay there until knock readings become worse more frequently (due to a drop in fuel quality of some kind). The PCM then will penalize the LOR with an estimation. But without a reset, it will never go back to 100% especially if it got used to a higher quality fuel that it now is not getting anymore. Who or where you get fuel from will vary.

Raw pump gas quality is unpredictable. As things like "winter blends" can make it impossible to get back to 100% until you get that better summer blend the car grew on. Even then it gets very sensitive to careful in regenerating LOR. The PCM does not want to risk knock coming back that is detrimental to misfire and detonation.

My dramatic drop very well was due to how the car trained on knock readings with 93+ACESIV. 87+ACESIV is also better than just 93 alone. But ACESIV has more than just octane boost going for it. That is why the withdrawal symptom was harsh on my MKZ. The cylinder lubrication and cooling is very helpful. This car was broken in on ACESIV to help with its growth.

Hence why I feel LOR retraining is a good reason to reset the adaptive PCM from time to time. It is measured by the knock sensors to determine how much quality timing it can perform.

I feel ACESIV helps improves the chance of getting that "factory freak vehicle" that seems more rare to get out of a newly built car. So it was a big deal to get my first tank with ACESIV in it going. Its a small window of opportunity, even if its not fully factual.

So I clumsily added about 3oz to a 3/4 tank then topped it off with my usual 93. Had no idea where the emergency funnel was so I used the gas pump to open the valve with each ounce and let the fluid in. Likely wasted some this way. Now that I know where the funnel is I will use it next time.


On the way to work my gas mileage went up by .4 without changing my driving style. WAY too small of a sample to really say it was the additive but that is a change from what I am used to seeing. Odd for sure.


LOR by %? I have been looking at the raw number. I assume 1 is 0% and -1 is 100%?

Not sure.  With the SCT it shows "Octane Adjust Ratio."  Mine is .96 which I take to mean 96%.  I interpret that to mean an increase in octane would have little affect for me without tuning to accommodate for the increase.

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 23, 2016, 12:59:38 PM
So I clumsily added about 3oz to a 3/4 tank then topped it off with my usual 93. Had no idea where the emergency funnel was so I used the gas pump to open the valve with each ounce and let the fluid in. Likely wasted some this way. Now that I know where the funnel is I will use it next time.


On the way to work my gas mileage went up by .4 without changing my driving style. WAY too small of a sample to really say it was the additive but that is a change from what I am used to seeing. Odd for sure.


LOR by %? I have been looking at the raw number. I assume 1 is 0% and -1 is 100%?

Ha...that funnel is sneaky especially if never told about it! I keep mine now in the side door compartment bagged, since its used a lot more often.

Anyways yes 100% in FORScan is same as -1.0 as how it is read in other formats. It estimates to the hundredth, so 100.00% in full. Numerical reads -1.0 to 1.0, I just like percent format personally. But can read it in Numerical mode.

FORScan just isnt fun or pretty as the others but nice for its Ford IDS quality and edits.

It's funny, when I first went on 2GF, I found the guy who was the farthest along and said "Ok that's who I want to catch." At that time it was Sean's.  Now I see that it is you my friend lol.  You have become the new top dog.

Everybody needs to be clear that what ACES increases is the "effective octane" and not octane. That effect is similar to how corn behaves when its directly injected. I suspect much of the "octane effect" is due to the lubricating layer that ACES leaves as it burns helping to combat heat in the cylinder.

Quote from: Zalvern on September 23, 2016, 01:28:59 PM

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 23, 2016, 12:59:38 PM
So I clumsily added about 3oz to a 3/4 tank then topped it off with my usual 93. Had no idea where the emergency funnel was so I used the gas pump to open the valve with each ounce and let the fluid in. Likely wasted some this way. Now that I know where the funnel is I will use it next time.


On the way to work my gas mileage went up by .4 without changing my driving style. WAY too small of a sample to really say it was the additive but that is a change from what I am used to seeing. Odd for sure.


LOR by %? I have been looking at the raw number. I assume 1 is 0% and -1 is 100%?

Ha...that funnel is sneaky especially if never told about it! I keep mine now in the side door compartment bagged, since its used a lot more often.

Anyways yes 100% in FORScan is same as -1.0 as how it is read in other formats. It estimates to the hundredth, so 100.00% in full. Numerical reads -1.0 to 1.0, I just like percent format personally. But can read it in Numerical mode.

FORScan just isnt fun or pretty as the others but nice for its Ford IDS quality and edits.

Thanks!


That funnel, I was sure I read about it on 2gf and knew where it was, pull parts of the lining on my trunk looking for it, at least i know now. Keeping it in a bag up front is a great idea, I don't put anything there currently.


SCT and the Torque app (having trouble getting DashCommand to work) show the raw value. Best I can get with 93 locally is -0.96. Looking forward to seeing a full -1. I will run with the current 93 tunes for a bit and let things sink in while watching timing carefully. Then I will bump the timing up on torrie's tune and start using the LMS 100 tune I have as well.

Quote from: RichieRich1042 on September 23, 2016, 02:34:49 PM
It's funny, when I first went on 2GF, I found the guy who was the farthest along and said "Ok that's who I want to catch." At that time it was Sean's.  Now I see that it is you my friend lol.  You have become the new top dog.

Lol thanks, it's been a long season but I like my results so far. im really just late to the party so I get to take advantage of a great aftermarket and all the people who learned before me. Trying to pay it forward by putting everything I am learning up on my site for the next folks.


There are def faster fusions, most folks just go big turbo long before they get to where I am at. I was really curious as to what the K03 could do and I wanted wheels and coilovers which really ate into the engine budget though I feel like they are rounding out the car nicely.


Being #1 is nice (IF i get there) but I really want to see a bunch of us get fast and start competing more, makes for a more interesting season. Sooooo COME AT ME BRO!!! ;-)

I'd like to see a bunch of us there too.  I'm tired of being told "It's just a fusion."  I'd be dumping more money in but with moving from Jersey to NY, bills, college, etc, the car pot took a massive hit recently.  I work my side jobs but not much play room lol.

So with a single commute into boston and back (about 80 miles) I am seeing an increase of 2mpg and the car seems to be pulling harder. No way it's working this fast, must be a decent DA today since the temps are dropping. Though it was pretty normal during the day, it didn't really start to drop until right as I got home tonight.


Does gas mileage tend to go up with cooler weather if you don't have winter blend in the tank?

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 23, 2016, 10:07:25 PM
So with a single commute into boston and back (about 80 miles) I am seeing an increase of 2mpg and the car seems to be pulling harder. No way it's working this fast, must be a decent DA today since the temps are dropping. Though it was pretty normal during the day, it didn't really start to drop until right as I got home tonight.


Does gas mileage tend to go up with cooler weather if you don't have winter blend in the tank?

Well yes in regards to cooler weather especially on an Ecoboost engine. Though it does not take long for ACES IV to kick in gear. Both you and JGR saying the same thing...ahaha, I see the addiction coming cause I was feeling the exact same way. Once the fuel is treated, that's it. Plus since the Ecoboost motor improves by sensing less knock, it pushes itself harder seeing its safe. Just stick to the 1 oz per 6 gallons ratio (I round up to the nearest 1/4 oz if not exact).

Just keep driving and continue to use it and you'll see...then the QuantumBlue goodies will not want to wait and they will deliver just as much satisfaction as well.

I am a little bit shocked. I am going to have sthulin @ 2gf try a tank or two and put some in the Fiesta as well. I need more sample data. I bought this stuff because of the reviews but if this is just the additive it is pretty unbelievable. The fact that Brian has been doing this since when I was running the Monte Carlo is going to have me kicking myself for not discovering it sooner.

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 23, 2016, 10:48:57 PM
I am a little bit shocked. I am going to have sthulin @ 2gf try a tank or two and put some in the Fiesta as well. I need more sample data. I bought this stuff because of the reviews but if this is just the additive it is pretty unbelievable. The fact that Brian has been doing this since when I was running the Monte Carlo is going to have me kicking myself for not discovering it sooner.

Ah its just like back when I was first getting a taste of true performance optimization. The beauty of chemical science at work.

By all means, do go ahead and put it in other vehicles, it just gets that much sweeter especially when non-performance enthusiasts notice it. I gave my mother a surprise by filling up her Kia Forte's tank prior to doing her road trip (a good 250 miles one way), along with ACES IV. Mom called me later night, mentioning she got better than usual mileage she's ever seen and made it with more than a half of a tank remaining.

All of my future vehicles (that won't be electric) will be getting these fluids strictly from now on, as long I am the primary driver. Older vehicles especially love this stuff since pure gas is rough to find and spend on.

I know my exhausts are cleaner than the average stock tune vehicle. I plan to check the intake valves and spark plugs once I get to 10,000 miles and see how well a new engine fares from spending most of its life on the goods.

Yes, cooler air temps help increase MPG.

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Ugh, I'm officially out and my shipment has yet to arrive.

With my corn addiction, I like to have ACES in my tank for its lubrication properties.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 24, 2016, 02:42:07 PM
Ugh, I'm officially out and my shipment has yet to arrive.

With my corn addiction, I like to have ACES in my tank for its lubrication properties.

same here :( the weather is cooling off and I want to revise my E20 tune and get my 12 second pass next month

So I started putting this stuff in and am through my 2nd tank on the Fusion though maybe I should call it my first properly mixed tank since I messed up by not having the emergency funnel for the first fill.


Have noticed about 1-2mpg improvement but had not seen my OAR get better from the -0.96 I have been seeing in the past. So I reset my KAM and then took a long drive. It normally takes about 200 miles to get back to -0.96 but I got there in less than 50!! It still has not gone lower but I have been reading up and I may be looking at a built in limit in the ECU on the OAR? The 15 computer is still new even to many tuners so I would not be shocked to see that. I will need to keep an eye on my timing advance since neither Livernois nor Unleashed seem inclined to turn on my knock PIDs.


I think I see an improvement in the Fusion's performance but I should be making close to 300hp now, a bump of 3-5 is harder to tell at those levels and higher. So I put some in my '12 Fiesta with a 1.6 NA engine. Hardly 1/2 a tank through and the performance difference is very noticeable, even my fiancee noted it by saying the car got to speeds she was not used to seeing with the amount of pedal she fed it. I drove it last night and the idle and acceleration seemed smoother and quicker to respond. We both log with Torque regularly so hopefully I should have some decent data. My only challenge is dropping DAs and winter blends coming soon. I should have enough in the bottle to get me to November so hopefully that is plenty to see some good data.


Also keeping track of my progress on my blog: http://www.fusionspec.net/blogs/entry/17-experimenting-with-snake-oil/ (http://www.fusionspec.net/blogs/entry/17-experimenting-with-snake-oil/)

AGF, what are you logging with?

Torque always showed -1 and -1.2 but SCT shows -.96 and -1.15 so the scaling is a little different.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 28, 2016, 11:27:46 AM
AGF, what are you logging with?

Torque always showed -1 and -1.2 but SCT shows -.96 and -1.15 so the scaling is a little different.

Torque always shows -1.00 unless I reset. Livewire TS with LiveLink shows -0.96. So I should expect it to possibly go up to -1.15 at some point?


Hitting the track tonight provided the drizzle backs off so I will have more logs on LiveLink then.

I was never able to find your blog until today thanks to this thread...I am now happy lol

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on September 28, 2016, 11:36:26 AM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 28, 2016, 11:27:46 AM
AGF, what are you logging with?

Torque always showed -1 and -1.2 but SCT shows -.96 and -1.15 so the scaling is a little different.

Torque always shows -1.00 unless I reset. Livewire TS with LiveLink shows -0.96. So I should expect it to possibly go up to -1.15 at some point?


Hitting the track tonight provided the drizzle backs off so I will have more logs on LiveLink then.

No, my OAR is scaled differently.

My point was that -.96 is the same as -1 in Torque, or in my case -1.15 is the same as -1.2

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 28, 2016, 11:52:41 AM


My point was that -.96 is the same as -1 in Torque, or in my case -1.15 is the same as -1.2

Yeah, it seems torque wants to round it up even if you tell it not to and configure 2 decimal precision for the gauge. I suspect it's a bug.

So a heads up to the membership here, there was a post on 2gf asking for where people felt they were at with Aces and I stated I had seen improvement on the Fiesta but not the Fusion but was still testing. Started to get a bunch of back-pedaling by zalvern here and when challenged and asked if he was sponsored he pulled up stakes, deleted his posts on 2gf and made his account private.


I want to note that I did not say the stuff did not work (my posts are still there) but that the jury was still out and I was planning to put the $500 worth of fluid in my car over the next few days. Rather than a response zal up and ran from 2gf and deleted his posts. Honestly this is shaking my faith in a trusted senior member of the EB communities and I am now not sure I even want to put this stuff in my car after this episode. This kind of thing smacks of a scam. I REALLY don't want it to be a scam I want this stuff to be good but the behavior I have seen has really got me worried about putting this stuff in my car. I will be talking to Brian next week though I would not be surprised if he does not talk to me.


http://www.2gfusions.net/showthread.php?tid=5013 (http://www.2gfusions.net/showthread.php?tid=5013)


starts here:
http://www.2gfusions.net/showthread.php?tid=5013&pid=94490#pid94490 (http://www.2gfusions.net/showthread.php?tid=5013&pid=94490#pid94490)


I think its only fair that people know what is going on and ideally to give zal a chance to explain himself as I do trust him, however this has me worried and rightly so IMO.

My BND fluids are in and I'm completely confident in my decision. I stopped listening to the forum folks and did my own research.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 08, 2016, 04:26:16 PM
My BND fluids are in and I'm completely confident in my decision. I stopped listening to the forum folks and did my own research.

So have I, but zal did turn me on to this stuff and I find it concerning with what has happened and would like to understand. I plan to talk to brian next week. I think my plan right now is going to be to use the AMSOil i have in stock and send out samples of all the BND stuff for lab analysis.


Please if you can post whatever research you have found as pretty much everything is forum people and the BND site with some magazine coverage.


Really curious to see how yours turns out. I do want something better and I like the idea of BND but this is shaking my faith. I think for myself as well as those interested its good to have all the cards on the table.

Who's zalvern?

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2017 MKZ owner, on this forum

Appreciate the heads up.

I think that the key for everyone to remember is that NO fluid is a magic pill.  I've been modifying and racing cars for 25+ years and have seen every claim there is.  All have to be taken with a grain of salt these days because even the worst fluids are pretty darn highly engineered now.  In automotive fluids there are good, better, and best.  Most of today's vehicles are shipped from the factory with fluids that are in the better category.  That only leaves room to step up one notch and that one notch is a very minor step in most cases.

For example, is Amsoil Signature better than Motorcraft full synthetic?  Yes it is, but the difference between those two is NOTHING compared to the difference between any full synthetic and what we bought out of metal cans in the '70's and early '80's.  Looking to improve on any highly engineered modern synthetic fluid would be very difficult and the improvement would be minuscule.

Quote from: J-Will on October 08, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
Who's zalvern?

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Here is the entire 11 pages solely based on his exclusive black label and him sponsoring BND products on a leased vehicle,LOL.  Z    http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6519.150.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6519.150.html)

Honestly I read the posts over there and I can't make heads or tails about WTH is going on.

What I do know is I'd appreciate other forum drama not making its way here.

I'm not going to post any of my findings. Why? The same reason I don't post settings in my tune. It's proprietary info and I'm personally not comfortable sharing it. The info isn't impossible to find and regardless of what it is, I'm not a chemist that can state with 100% certainty the effect it has on the fuel...although I do think I have a basic grasp as to what is going on. 

I have no idea why Zalvern flounced and the whole "sponsorship" thing seems odd. I can tell you as far as my dealings with Brian no offer of any kind has been made and if it had, there would be 100% transparency about it.

Personally I wouldn't suggest anyone buying $500 in fluids sight unseen. Maybe buy one, test, and make your decisions from there. Just because I went all in doesn't mean everybody or anybody else should.

As for the 100 octane tune? I'd tread cautiously. Like I've said before octane and "octane effect" are two completely different things. With a given fuel, octane will be be the same between 2 different cars. "Octane effect" however will vary greatly depending on environment, engine design (A prime example is how corn behaves when it is direct injected vs port), base fuel used, etc. Would I delete E85 and try to run ACES only and VPower? Hell no, not on 17 psi and 24 degrees of spark. Corn is a known variable that has proven itself out extremely well. Quite honestly when dealing with an unknown variable, IMHO, a datalogged tune is necessity instead of jumping blind into the deep end with 100 octane out of the chute. We've been able to turn up the power slowly and safely and were able to prove non top tier has far less resistance to knock, even with corn added.

I primarily use ACES for the lubrication it leaves after combustion, especially with my corn addiction. If I get some more octane effect on top of my already potent fuel blend that's just icing on the cake.

As far as the other fluids. so far I have no idea. Life happened and I wasn't able to really test QB oil and I threw already purchased amsoil back in. Next change I'm gonna order more QB oil and start over. Just changed out OE PTU fluid that looked absolutely perfect. Same with the diff. QB coolant and 160 STAT in as well. Will I send everything out for when I change again? Maybe, maybe not. Honestly I've made my decision based upon my research and I'm going to use what i want and enjoy my car while the rest of the internet battles it out.

All I can tell you is that I will be 100% truthful about my experiences with BND products, good, bad, or indifferent. For anybody on the fence that doesn't have discretionary cash to burn on exotic fluids, maybe this isn't the way to go and I still believe Amsoil offers a high quality product and is an excellent alternative to the low end oe and high end exotics.

Testing one by one, be it product or consumer, is VERY tedious indeed.  So I would also emphasize the idea of discretionary, both in terms of time and finance.  I wish FoMoCo had been able to test it all out for us, he would certainly have provided unbiased data.  I don't have an EB vehicle, so I am completely out of the picture on this one.  I just switched over the wife's car from MC SynBlend to Amsoil Sig, so my testing has only just begun (to paraphrase the Carpenters LOL).

So did BND delete all their posts, Zalvern, or both?

Hey AGF, I think Brian is going to call you. I actually had to call him today because the tech goofed and accidentally put a small amount of PTU fluid in with my diff fluid. He called me back immediately and let me know it would be fine.  He alluded to a bruhaha over on the fusion forum and I suspected the person he was talking about calling was you.  Then this thread happened, lol.

Quote from: J-Will on October 08, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
Who's zalvern?

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The guy who was all over this thread but looks like he deleted his posts here too. The thread on 2gf is confusing mainly because zal deleted his comments from the thread. It's this withdrawal that concerns me, I did not think I said anything that bad about the stuff just that the jury was still out. I did become a bit more firm in my last posting but it was mainly because of the insinuation that I was somehow disparaging brian when I am really just looking for firm data.


I understand your position Fomocosho but I do not agree, if your research is available on the public internet it is by no means proprietary and should be shared IMO. I am an old school internet geek from all the way back to the early 90s and Fido net when things were MUCH more academic. If the information is available and you refuse to share it then it makes the validity of any claims suspect and rightly so IMO. If your information comes from protected sources then I do understand but if it is public out there already what is the big deal?


I will be interested to see how things turn out for you.

I am not looking to stir drama but I am interested in truth data and facts, if truth ruffles some feathers I do apologize but I would rather ruffle feathers and out the truth than let people potentially harm their cars.


As I said in the 2gf thread the volumes of AcesIV are so low I could practically pee in my tank 1oz per 6 gallons or pour pure nail polish cleaner into the tank at this ratio and not notice much of a problem. So I am not worried about the Aces harming the system but I really wanted to see it help (and as I say like a broken record I did see it help on the fiesta, just not much of anything on the fusion yet). The issue I am seeing here is this sudden retraction of posts by one of the products biggest adherents and one of the main reasons I looked into this stuff at all. The re-stating of marketing information and then deletion of multiple posts when challenged even a tiny bit smacks of something fishy even if it is not at all. Perception HAS been affected even if that was not the intent.


As stated before, I intend to continue to testing with the last of my AcesIV however with what I have seen today I will not be putting BND products into my crankcase or drivetrain until I have satisfactory information from Blackstone.


Fortunately for me, as evidenced by my modding this past season, I DO have the extra discretionary income and a 2nd car to have the luxury to try out exotic fluids. At one time AMSOil was considered exotic and I tested it for 2 years with blackstone. I just don't understand why the expectation seems to be that one should be all hush hush about what they are seeing unless it is amazing and even then the results should be quoted in highly subjective unquantifiable terms like how much soot is on your tailpipe. We are a community and provide information to help each other out. Testing products is part of that, why should it be any different for BND than it is for Boomba, Steeda, Levels, Livernois, Unleashed, etc etc etc?


Also, no phone calls from Brian yet, it's a holiday weekend so I will hit him up on tuesday.

If BND reaches out to you, the first thing I would ask is what he is using for base fluids for each of his products.  NO small shop can formulate base fluids.  All they are able to do is buy a base and then create their own additive package.

I have not purchased or tested any BND fluids.  This is not because of a lack of funds, but a lack of interest due to the lack of information available about their product.

Knowing the base fluid he starts with would perhaps increase my interest in their product.  As it stands right now, I would guess that the base for ACES is from Lucas and the base for their motor oil is probably something less than Amsoil Signature.  Perhaps also from Lucas.  That's just a crazy guess.  Regardless, anyone going the BND route is rolling the dice regarding what they are actually paying for.

First thing I check before purchasing any high end automotive fluid is the MSDS sheets.  I do not see those available for BND products.  A release of those would definitely ease my mind regarding the potential of this being snake oil.

Objective data :D. Keep fighting the good fight!

Quote from: sholxgt on October 08, 2016, 11:49:43 PM
If BND reaches out to you, the first thing I would ask is what he is using for base fluids for each of his products.  NO small shop can formulate base fluids.  All they are able to do is buy a base and then create their own additive package.

I have not purchased or tested any BND fluids.  This is not because of a lack of funds, but a lack of interest due to the lack of information available about their product.

Knowing the base fluid he starts with would perhaps increase my interest in their product.  As it stands right now, I would guess that the base for ACES is from Lucas and the base for their motor oil is probably something less than Amsoil Signature.  Perhaps also from Lucas.  That's just a crazy guess.  Regardless, anyone going the BND route is rolling the dice regarding what they are actually paying for.

First thing I check before purchasing any high end automotive fluid is the MSDS sheets.  I do not see those available for BND products.  A release of those would definitely ease my mind regarding the potential of this being snake oil.

According to my previous conversations with Brian the base stock is mineral oils same as used in many oils including many labeled as synthetic that are not synthetic (yes synthetic is a marketing term so you must look carefully). He secured the same supplier he used in the past, while working at Exxon (IIRC) doing military and aerospace custom fluids, and gets high quality stock to his specific requirements (those I do not know entirely). He also tests fresh incoming batches looking for organic impurities that would cause carbon deposits. If the test fails the batch goes back to the supplier. Brian then adds his own blend of additives based upon the specific application. Most oil is 97-99% base stock with a bit of additives like phosphorus, zinc and other additives to alter the properties of the stock. Brian likes natural base stocks over synthetic as he feels that synthetic heats up too quickly due to the smaller size of the molecules in synthetic stocks. Synthetic is mainly chosen over natural oils due to its ability to be consistent in behavior batch to batch.


Not being synthetic did not bother me as the general testing process seemed sound though TBH I am not sure what kind of testing or filtering is done by the other providers to ensure a good base natural stock, in that regard I trusted brian's background.


I agree on the availability of MSDS would be very helpful, brian did offer to provide copies of MSDS as well as other certs and such, when I speak to him I will see if I can get my hands on these items. I admit that I trusted some folks that I respected here and on 2gf as part of my research as there is limited info. I can afford to lose some money trying something out but buying the bottle and putting it into an engine that if it fails requires a $3500-5000 rebuild are different matters entirely and so I decided to proceed with caution. Had I not gotten the response I did on what I felt was a simple discussion about how my AcesIV testing was coming along I would likely be putting BND oil in my crankcase in the next day. As it stands now I will use the AMSOil stock I have for the trans and some local high grade oil since I am out of engine oil ATM and wait to see what the labs say about the virgin samples of BND. I will publish everything I find as I do not feel any of this is proprietary.

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on October 09, 2016, 12:07:07 AM
the base stock is mineral oils same as used in many oils including many labeled as synthetic that are not synthetic (yes synthetic is a marketing term so you must look carefully). He secured the same supplier he used in the past, while working at Exxon (IIRC)

I will publish everything I find as I do not feel any of this is proprietary.

Thanks for the information!

I would have a very hard time choosing any mineral based synthetic over a PAO based synthetic like Amsoil Signature or Red Line, but that's just me.

Agree completely that the information is not proprietary.  The technique for manufacturing or the source of raw materials could be considered proprietary, but not the make up or results of the final product.  People have a right to know what they are paying for.

So as a heads up to the group, I just got back from a little shopping. Since I am dry on AMSOil signature I went and grabbed some Royal Purple (I was a user of them before AMSOil) instead for this change out. I picked up an extra quart of RP as well as grabbed a quart of standard motorcraft synth blend both in 5w-30.


I have a bunch of blackstone test kits and will be bottling virgin oils of BND, RP and MotorCraft and sending them off to the lab. I am hoping that having some industry accepted oils will help in comparing what we see with BND's stuff. I will be putting the samples together tomorrow (likely with a video since I am about to get super ANAL about this stuff) and shipping them out on Tuesday to blackstone. If all goes well I should have the lab results back before Thanksgiving.


Should be interesting and educational for us all. I look forward to seeing how well BND stacks up and really hope it blows away (or at least is on-par with) the competition so I can feel safe putting it in my car.

Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on October 08, 2016, 11:36:12 PM

Quote from: J-Will on October 08, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
Who's zalvern?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I understand your position Fomocosho but I do not agree, if your research is available on the public internet it is by no means proprietary and should be shared IMO. I am an old school internet geek from all the way back to the early 90s and Fido net when things were MUCH more academic. If the information is available and you refuse to share it then it makes the validity of any claims suspect and rightly so IMO. If your information comes from protected sources then I do understand but if it is public out there already what is the big deal?


I am not looking to stir drama but I am interested in truth data and facts, if truth ruffles some feathers I do apologize but I would rather ruffle feathers and out the truth than let people potentially harm their cars.


As I said in the 2gf thread the volumes of AcesIV are so low I could practically pee in my tank 1oz per 6 gallons or pour pure nail polish cleaner into the tank at this ratio and not notice much of a problem. So I am not worried about the Aces harming the system but I really wanted to see it help (and as I say like a broken record I did see it help on the fiesta, just not much of anything on the fusion yet). The issue I am seeing here is this sudden retraction of posts by one of the products biggest adherents and one of the main reasons I looked into this stuff at all. The re-stating of marketing information and then deletion of multiple posts when challenged even a tiny bit smacks of something fishy even if it is not at all. Perception HAS been affected even if that was not the intent.


As stated before, I intend to continue to testing with the last of my AcesIV however with what I have seen today I will not be putting BND products into my crankcase or drivetrain until I have satisfactory information from Blackstone.


We are a community and provide information to help each other out. Testing products is part of that, why should it be any different for BND than it is for Boomba, Steeda, Levels, Livernois, Unleashed, etc etc etc?

You are interested in truth and facts? That statement is at odds with your last post at the other forum as you admit to not even taking the first basic step to find the MSDS sheet. So you are interested, just not enough to do the work?  Hell I found all of this info while I was recovering from a traumatic brain injury. So yeah, from my perspective you dragged a bunch of other forum drama over here before exercising due diligence, its the same pattern I've seen repeated at nearly every forum regarding ACES hence my attitude about the situation. You ordered and used BND products without any testing or data but Zalvern flouncing gives you pause and now changes your perception? I don't know if Zalvern is an overzealous ACES enthusiast that found himself in an impossible to defend position (much like I find myself in) or a BND shill. If he is a BND shill then he should be fired and me hired because he's a hussy that tucked and ran instead of staying and defending his position. (Yeah Zalvern, I'm calling you out!)I will not back down so easily as I enjoy spirited debate and ultimately I don't give a s*** whether you believe me or not. It is impossible to please the entire internet and there's always going to be somebody that thinks I'm full of s*** about something. That being said, Lets get it on...

Here is a Shell V-Power msds sheet

http://s07.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/aus/downloads/fuels/msds/msds-shellvpower.pdf (http://s07.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/aus/downloads/fuels/msds/msds-shellvpower.pdf)

Will this or any lab test explain why it has so much knock resistance when mixed with Speedway Corn vs speedway 93? Looks like pretty normal fuel ingredients to me.

Nope, all you have is my word and the word of my tuner who witnessed it first hand (blindly I might add) that we were knock limited very early and once I switched we have been able to progress to revision 22 with the only change being the Vpower base fuel. I have no idea why and I have no idea how all these chemicals work together to suppress knock so effectively. That sheet does nothing to help me understand what is going on. Am I going to get called out for being a shill for Shell oil now? If that MSDS helps you figure it all out, clue me in please.

I guess I could lab test ACES but that's not gonna tell me squat about how it reacts with different fuels, additive packs, metals in the engine, reactions in the combustion chamber, behavior when directly injected vs port, etc, etc. With so many variables, how are we to prove this conclusively one way or another?

As far as tuners and the "standards" we hold them to...go ahead and ask LME or Unleashed about their tune settings that you drive around with and let me know the results. In fact, I think you should immediately start threads in their areas demanding the information be disclosed. You run their tunes sight unseen with no idea about the thousands of settings and millions of possible combinations that could be used based on a log of a whopping 40 parameters. What if someone accidentally entered a value in your part throttle maps that could unwittingly cause megaknock? How would you know? How would you prove it? What is this scientific standard they are being held to? Oh, I know, real world experiences, performance, and a little blind faith mixed in. How do we quantify safety when dealing with a still unknown phenomenon like megaknock?  We don't. Where is your concern? On a side note I think ACES will help suppress any naughty hot spots.


What proof should I submit to you about my Full E85 tune? Only AJPTurbo and I know how he tuned the car. Maybe we're lying. Maybe not. How did we maintain that fuel pressure and keep the dreaded fuel trim CEL at bay? Guess what? I'm not going to tell you because that is proprietary info based upon my research and his tuning skills which I will not disclose under any circumstances.  Everything I've tried with my tunes originates from internet based research. If he wants to disclose it so be it as my livelihood doesn't depend on it but he does stand to make a profit and I believe he has earned that right.

ACES did indeed clean up my tailpipes much like E85 does. Interestingly that corresponds well with the ACES video I watched showing greatly reduced soot production. Is it proof of the claim? Nope and I don't now how I could possibly prove it to anyone. I could send you a picture but i may have wiped my tips off prior.

http://americancleanenergysystems.com/americancleanenergysystems/Old%20Site/files/AcesVideo.mpg (http://americancleanenergysystems.com/americancleanenergysystems/Old%20Site/files/AcesVideo.mpg)

Seriously, we could go on like this for eternity and get absolutely nowhere. The research that I have ultimately means nothing. Even when I had hard lab data about direct injected E85 I remained cautious because the lab and the real world don't always match up. I'm not sure I have 160 "octane effect", "effective octane" or whatever you may want to call it. What I do know is that my tune settings tell me its pretty high. The way my tune is now I might be able to tell if there's an "effective octane increase". The question is how much will it raise an already potent mixture? Will that affect the results? I don't know and in my case, it will not matter as i wanted ACES for the lubricating properties since I'm flush with octane.

Not that any of this matters, but here you go...And yes, I do have ideas about the actions of the ingredients. Since I'm not a chemist or tribologist I will be sorely lacking in proof and/or credibility but I will be happy to offer wild conjecture if you are interested.

http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf (http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf)

I stand by my original post about the reasons I was uncomfortable disclosing my findings. I like Brian, he has been 100% truthful IMHO, (I'm a trust but try to verify kind of guy)and based upon my experiences, research, and extremely limited comprehension of chemistry and tribology, I believe ACES has some merit. That also means I cannot conceptualize all the ways competitors could use any data I post against him.  He is a very small fish in an ocean of players armed with lots of cash and attorneys and I would feel horrible if something I posted screwed with his livelihood. If this makes me a bad guy, so be it. I've heard this has happened already and I'm trying to track down that info as well. I've been going back and forth with SHOdded about this because he's way smarter about this s*** than I am.

If you truly believe I am in any way shilling for BND, I will gladly send you my invoices.

Research protip...Go back to the beginning

American Clean Energy Systems

Peace

All this boils down to the fact that if you want to do an analysis, you should, and we look forward to the results.  However, as laymen, it is hard to figure out the exact effects of a product, only the net, the results.  That is what tuners work with anyway.

So get tuned for 93 forst, even with aces in the tank.  Let the tuner determine the extra safety margin available to you and make changes appropriately.  But dont be surprised if it is less than a true 100 octane tune.  Only time and empirical data will tell.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 09, 2016, 04:13:12 PM

You are interested in truth and facts? That statement is at odds with your last post at the other forum as you admit to not even taking the first basic step to find the MSDS sheet. So you are interested, just not enough to do the work?  Hell I found all of this info while I was recovering from a traumatic brain injury. So yeah, from my perspective you dragged a bunch of other forum drama over here before exercising due diligence, its the same pattern I've seen repeated at nearly every forum regarding ACES hence my attitude about the situation. You ordered and used BND products without any testing or data but Zalvern flouncing gives you pause and now changes your perception? I don't know if Zalvern is an overzealous ACES enthusiast that found himself in an impossible to defend position (much like I find myself in) or a BND shill. If he is a BND shill then he should be fired and me hired because he's a pussy that tucked and ran instead of staying and defending his position. (Yeah Zalvern, I'm calling you out!)I will not back down so easily as I enjoy spirited debate and ultimately I don't give a s*** whether you believe me or not. It is impossible to please the entire internet and there's always going to be somebody that thinks I'm full of s*** about something. That being said, Lets get it on...

Here is a Shell V-Power msds sheet

http://s07.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/aus/downloads/fuels/msds/msds-shellvpower.pdf (http://s07.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/aus/downloads/fuels/msds/msds-shellvpower.pdf)

Will this or any lab test explain why it has so much knock resistance when mixed with Speedway Corn vs speedway 93? Looks like pretty normal fuel ingredients to me.

Nope, all you have is my word and the word of my tuner who witnessed it first hand (blindly I might add) that we were knock limited very early and once I switched we have been able to progress to revision 22 with the only change being the Vpower base fuel. I have no idea why and I have no idea how all these chemicals work together to suppress knock so effectively. That sheet does nothing to help me understand what is going on. Am I going to get called out for being a shill for Shell oil now? If that MSDS helps you figure it all out, clue me in please.

I guess I could lab test ACES but that's not gonna tell me squat about how it reacts with different fuels, additive packs, metals in the engine, reactions in the combustion chamber, behavior when directly injected vs port, etc, etc. With so many variables, how are we to prove this conclusively one way or another?

As far as tuners and the "standards" we hold them to...go ahead and ask LME or Unleashed about their tune settings that you drive around with and let me know the results. In fact, I think you should immediately start threads in their areas demanding the information be disclosed. You run their tunes sight unseen with no idea about the thousands of settings and millions of possible combinations that could be used based on a log of a whopping 40 parameters. What if someone accidentally entered a value in your part throttle maps that could unwittingly cause megaknock? How would you know? How would you prove it? What is this scientific standard they are being held to? Oh, I know, real world experiences, performance, and a little blind faith mixed in. How do we quantify safety when dealing with a still unknown phenomenon like megaknock?  We don't. Where is your concern? On a side note I think ACES will help suppress any naughty hot spots.


What proof should I submit to you about my Full E85 tune? Only AJPTurbo and I know how he tuned the car. Maybe we're lying. Maybe not. How did we maintain that fuel pressure and keep the dreaded fuel trim CEL at bay? Guess what? I'm not going to tell you because that is proprietary info based upon my research and his tuning skills which I will not disclose under any circumstances.  Everything I've tried with my tunes originates from internet based research. If he wants to disclose it so be it as my livelihood doesn't depend on it but he does stand to make a profit and I believe he has earned that right.

ACES did indeed clean up my tailpipes much like E85 does. Interestingly that corresponds well with the ACES video I watched showing greatly reduced soot production. Is it proof of the claim? Nope and I don't now how I could possibly prove it to anyone. I could send you a picture but i may have wiped my tips off prior.

http://americancleanenergysystems.com/americancleanenergysystems/Old%20Site/files/AcesVideo.mpg (http://americancleanenergysystems.com/americancleanenergysystems/Old%20Site/files/AcesVideo.mpg)

Seriously, we could go on like this for eternity and get absolutely nowhere. The research that I have ultimately means nothing. Even when I had hard lab data about direct injected E85 I remained cautious because the lab and the real world don't always match up. I'm not sure I have 160 "octane effect", "effective octane" or whatever you may want to call it. What I do know is that my tune settings tell me its pretty high. The way my tune is now I might be able to tell if there's an "effective octane increase". The question is how much will it raise an already potent mixture? Will that affect the results? I don't know and in my case, it will not matter as i wanted ACES for the lubricating properties since I'm flush with octane.

Not that any of this matters, but here you go...And yes, I do have ideas about the actions of the ingredients. Since I'm not a chemist or tribologist I will be sorely lacking in proof and/or credibility but I will be happy to offer wild conjecture if you are interested.

http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf (http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf)

I stand by my original post about the reasons I was uncomfortable disclosing my findings. I like Brian, he has been 100% truthful IMHO, (I'm a trust but try to verify kind of guy)and based upon my experiences, research, and extremely limited comprehension of chemistry and tribology, I believe ACES has some merit. That also means I cannot conceptualize all the ways competitors could use any data I post against him.  He is a very small fish in an ocean of players armed with lots of cash and attorneys and I would feel horrible if something I posted screwed with his livelihood. If this makes me a bad guy, so be it. I've heard this has happened already and I'm trying to track down that info as well. I've been going back and forth with SHOdded about this because he's way smarter about this s*** than I am.

If you truly believe I am in any way shilling for BND, I will gladly send you my invoices.

Research protip...Go back to the beginning

American Clean Energy Systems

Peace

If you think keyboard warrior style language is going to scare me and setting yourself up as a marytar to cover your ass in later discussion is going to save you try again, been there seen that. Further straying from the point widely here is a great way to confuse and setup straw men. I've been on the internet for 25 years, I've seen this game before I will stick to the facts and do my best to leave the hyperbolic language at bay even if you seem to enjoy it so. I am also going to stay with the facts and data I collect.


I like you (even though you attack me for this at the beginning of your post then change your stance at the end) are a trust but verify type of person. I trusted senior members like you and zalvern to try this out and was carefully verifying the data as I saw it. The second I said that I was a little underwhelmed with the performance, not that it was fake and not that it did not work mind you, first one person runs and no you are swinging your *ick and taking a very confrontational tone while throwing in other arguments and discussions not salient to the discussion. Like what zalvern did your post brings reason for concern. You state things are proprietary but go off on tangents about other items not related to this discussion and attack points I did not make. These are classic techniques to derail things and honestly I am a bit disappointing in you as I thought much better of you before this post.


I was an early AMSOil user so I know well how fud can be thrown on a perfectly good product and was more than willing to give BND a full try out before this blow up which personally I feel is more on the side of zal and yourself that it is on me as I am really only stating what I have seen from my own experience. It has been this first shut out and now your near violent reaction that has me stepping back and deciding that this stuff IS NOT going in my car until I have a lab tell me it is safe to do so.


Once I have a lab report telling me that this is not some crude base stock or some other kind of fluid that could cause an issue I will put the stuff into my crankcase and drive train and log and provide my thoughts and opinions though I am not looking for your approval I am posting what I see and will let the readers of those posts make their own decisions.


To summarize for the folks watching this debacle.


1. I purchased and received a full set of AcesIV fluid after doing basic research, talking to Brian and TRUSTING people lile Zalvern and FoMoCoSHO that is was really shockingly good stuff, being a long time AMSOil user I went ahead and order the full set of fluids.


2. Upon receiving AcesIV i started using it with my next fill up. Within a single tank I saw what appeared to be an increase in gas mileage by approx 2mpg. However temps had also crashed over the same period so I posted asking if perhaps it was the cold weather? Maybe it was Aces, maybe it was an abboration


3. Not sure if what I noticed in MPG was legit and not seeing a huge change in my runs or logs I decided to put some AcesIV into my 2012 Fiesta SES with an N/A 1.6L engine. Before we were into the tank more than 1/4 i noticed a change in driving and my wife did too. Acceleration seemed smoother.


4. Still not sure I am seeing anything in the fusion I give sthulin over at 2gfusions some to try in his tank. That very same week my OARs crashed which as stated before I DO NOT blame on AcesIV rather than some bad gas at a Sunoco station near New England Dragway


5. I switched back the station that has traditionally given me my best OAR and have stuck with it for the last few tanks as well as Reset KAM in my SCT. I am still using AcesIV in every tank and am waiting for my OAR to recover before trying to do any further testing on AcesIV such as testing a 100 octane tune (which zalvern stated he ran successfully on AcesIV and pump 93 fuel).


6. JGR on 2g asked how testing was going and I stated that while I noticed things in the Fiesta; in the Fusion it seemed much more difficult to verify, maybe due to higher engine output. That said I said I continued to test and was holding back judgement until I completed the bottle and tried a 100 octane tune at least on a simple test. If anything when I ran out of the stuff I might see something. I stated that so far I am a bit underwhelmed as I have not seen much with the fusion but at least the fiesta saw a change.


7. Zalvern (zdyne) asked me to use Forscan (an open app indie developed with no association to Ford) as he did not trust SCT's output via Livelink or the device nor did he trust Torque.


8. I agreed that I would use Forscan (and plan to) to see what it shows for my OAR, since these are all just reading data reported from the ECU I expect it to read the same value with whatever display the software chooses to use (precentage, raw value, whatever). I also restated my testing intentions.


9. At this point Zdyne (zalvern) back-peadled on the 100 octane claim and then posted over a full page of unrelated marketing information and data about the "safety" and "standards compliance" of the AcesIV material which I never questioned. I was simply looking to verify the claims printed on the bottle it self and the claims brain made in my conversation with him. He also insinuated in his post that I was somehow disparaging brian or the product by saying I was thus far underwhelmed but still testing (what?)


10. I noted that Zdyne's post seemed like backpedalling on previous claims and did not really like the insinuations being made nor was a full page of marketing unrelated to the discussion at hand needed. At this point I asked him if he was sponsored, receiving discounts or free product for the purposes of open disclosure.


11. Zdyne (zal) deletes all his posts on 2gf, blocks PMs, makes his account private and ignored all remaining posts. This is where the RED FLAG alarm start going off BIG TIME. I had been trusting AND verifying and this move had me re-thinking the trust part as after all $500 on fluids is a bit pricey but cheap compared to an engine or drivetrain rebuild if the rest of this stuff has something up with it and I think considering the circumstances I have plenty of reason to drop the trust side of things considering.


12. Looking for answers and knowing that folks here SHOULD also be aware of the facts around BND I posted here as well. Shortly after Zalvern did the same here with his posts and account that he did on 2gf.


13. This now has me dropping the trust part of things entirely and going into full VERIFY mode. As much as I would like to trust it just cannot happen now and so before I even attempt to use these fluids any further I need a lab not associated with BND to tell me they are at least safe to run in my application.


14. I have acquired 9 quarts of royal purple (8 for the crankcase without balance shaft, 1 for testing) and 1 quart of motorcraft synthetic blend to send to Blackstone labs along with samples of all the BND fluids I have to see what they say. I expect the information to be very useful for us all. JGR at 2gf has kindly offered to help pick up the tab on the lab testing.


15. Tomorrow I plan to put the kits together and ship them out, considering the heat this is getting from certain members I will video this and post it. On tuesday I will ship things out to blackstone and should hopefully have the results before thanks giving.




16. I do intend on using AcesIV until the bottle is gone, I will attempt to talk to brian on tuesday after the holiday but I do suspect he may not talk to me or sell me any more product should these tests even prove that the product is as good as the claims made.


In the midst of this FoMoCoSHO has come out as an ardent supporter of BND quoting unverifiable proprietary data that if I was as amazing as him I would apparently have though none of you dear readers are allowed to see. I did not demand an MSDS, another member did (sholxgt) and I promised to look for and ask for these documents (remember I was trying to trust and verify originally). I thank you Fomocosho for posting a link to the MSDS as sholxgt asked, it was about the only useful bit of your entire rant.


I will post again as I progress in my testing but will not engage in childish internet warrior debate. You can be on topic and respectful or you can be dismissed completely. How you respond is up-to-you.


Have a great one!

I think we should all take a time out and relax for the time being.  Z  :smoke:

AGF, thanks for taking the time and spending the money to send off for lab tests. 

You may want to consider sending in a sample of Red Line 5w/30 as well?  From my research, RP is sadly not a true synthetic either (unless it's their XPR formula).  Guess it would serve for comparing another non-synthetic base stock oil with BND but really, for the price of BND, it needs to compare with the best of the best and not just something that can be bought fairly cheaply at Walmart.

Again, thanks for taking the time to research and search for the truth.  It may never be found, but it's at least fascinating.

Just went down and did inventory I am short on blackstone kits (only have 5 since my stock PTU fluid is in one) BUT I still have a little AMSOil eurospec (what I have been running all season) left.


I will order more kits from blackstone as I want to test the ATF and gear oils as well. So to start with tomorrow I will be posting video of sampling virgin motor oils from the following:

   
• Royal Purple Synthetic (PAO) 5w-30
• Motorcraft Synthetic Blend (GroupIII I think) 5w-30
• AMSOil Synthetic European Car Formula (PAO) 5w-30
• BND Quantum Blue 7.5w-27 (Mineral Oil Base)

(http://www.fusionspec.net/uploads/monthly_2016_10/large.20161009_191340.jpg.0fca62f9eb0406fc1646a0490159ea17.jpg) (http://www.fusionspec.net/uploads/monthly_2016_10/large.20161009_191340.jpg.0fca62f9eb0406fc1646a0490159ea17.jpg)




When I get more kits I will be testing AMSOil ATF and Gear Oils and BNDs ATF and Gear Oils.

Quote from: sholxgt on October 09, 2016, 07:17:58 PM
AGF, thanks for taking the time and spending the money to send off for lab tests. 

You may want to consider sending in a sample of Red Line 5w/30 as well?  From my research, RP is sadly not a true synthetic either (unless it's their XPR formula).  Guess it would serve for comparing another non-synthetic base stock oil with BND but really, for the price of BND, it needs to compare with the best of the best and not just something that can be bought fairly cheaply at Walmart.

Again, thanks for taking the time to research and search for the truth.  It may never be found, but it's at least fascinating.

Happy to do so, I want this BND stuff to be as good or better than the others, after all I spent the coin! Based on a quick search it looks like RP is a PAO base but I have not dug too deeply, it is a very popular oil and was a happy user for a while before I switched so I felt it was fair to throw it in the mix since its going in my engine.


I did find some of the AMSOil I have been using (I went eurospec due to the popularity of the higher zinc content for DI engines over there). I will start with the 4 I have but considering the road I am headed down I don't mind getting some redline and some AMSOil signature and doing that too.


This is gonna cost a bit so if anyone wants to kick some into the pot either oil or some cash please PM me, I could use it to get things done a bit quicker.


Interesting note, got word from Sthulin from 2gf, initial testing on a 100 octane tune on pump gas with AcesIV shows no pulled timing and an advance just a few degrees below Torco. Too wet for real hard runs though so more to come. Putting my car up for mods. RTV should be cured by early Tuesday morning if I get things done tonight then I can put fluids in and start driving like crazy to get my OAR back up to snuff before switching to a 100 octane tune for some testing myself.

You are taking advantage of Blackstone's bulk discount rates right?  Every little bit helps.

As far as I know, RP and Redline are ester based oils.  Joe Gibbs Driven oil uses mPAO, supposedly even better than PAO.

Additive packages can make a big difference.  If the scar tests are to be believed.

Quote from: SHOdded on October 09, 2016, 07:36:19 PM
You are taking advantage of Blackstone's bulk discount rates right?  Every little bit helps.

As far as I know, RP and Redline are ester based oils.  Joe Gibbs Driven oil uses mPAO, supposedly even better than PAO.

Additive packages can make a big difference.  If the scar tests are to be believed.

I was going to call Blackstone on Tuesday about getting more kits, I will ask about bulk rates too; thanks for the tip. Please if you can find verification of the oil types listed above please post it up and I will update. I am trying to do this in the midst of a very busy job at the end of the race season while trying to nab a record.


I really don't have time for this but what needs to be done, needs to be done.

I think the lesson here is to not jump in with both feet on the words of one individual, and to always use caution.

I don't know what happened on the other forum, and at the end of the day I don't care. But one person's pro or con of a product shouldn't sway anyone either way.

I use ACES and on my stock vehicles I see performance, cleaning, and MPG gains. On three different vehicles. My wife knows when it's in her 2013 Escape Titanium from MPG on her daily commute alone. Before I run out if ACES I'm ordering more so that I'm not running any tanks without.

I'm not sponsored by nor drinking the cool aide. I'm only using the ACES leg of the BND three legged stool.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

So I just got off the phone with Brian, he is not sure what is up with Zdyne but as was stated in his last conversation with me he is very confident in his products both AcesIV and the oils. He does not fear any testing though as a heads up he likes to use way more phosphorus than just about anything else you will buy.

Brian welcomes the testing and our honest results further as I had suspected in my earlier posts you may not feel much on our EB engines with the AcesIV, it will be shown in your log data mostly.

So I will continue as I have stated, we will send in virgin oil samples to blackstone for testing (Brian hates blackstone but welcomes us using them or ANY lab we want). Provided the results indicate the fluids are safe for use in the engine, trans etc, I will put them in my car and try them out. At the end of the day Zalvern's deletion of posts and FoMoCoSHO's attacks have only caused me to delay putting this in my car. Brian was actually a bit surprised to hear what transpired and did not blame us for being a bit cautious. He would love for us to start using his fluids right away but does not fear any tests or analysis we want to throw at this stuff either.

I have been dragging on the installs on my car so I still need to speak to blackstone and will first thing tomorrow as well as getting the oil samples out unless I need to do something different for a bulk discount.

I am really sorry my statements of being underwhelmed with AcesIV caused such a caustic reaction for some people.

A few tips to BND fans should you wish to support your favorite fluid provider in the future:

1. Use your own words, not Brians (I have spoken enough to Brian to know when you are just parroting what he has said)
2. Don't repost stuff from the BND site without referencing or linking (be up-front about your sources)
3. Don't get angry, rude or argumentative when people express doubts, you should be as confident in this stuff as Brian is if you want success.
4. Don't expect blind trust when in the same breath you repeat Brian's mantra of "trust but verify" in particular when people are tying to do just that
5. Don't reference information you cannot produce or provide openly

JGR on 2gf, some folks here on EBPF and myself will be doing testing for the group, if anyone wants to help out with lab fees please reach out to me. I look forward to seeing how awesome this stuff really can be!

As far as the coolant, I am going to go ahead and throw that in soon, there is much less risk to the coolant than the other fluids IMO.

Finally I will keep working with the AcesIV I have left and will try a 100 octane tune. Interesting note sthluin on 2gf has done some initial testing and it seems to be working on a 100 octane tune, not as strong as Torco but it is working!

Once I get the testing stuff lined up I will start a new thread to keep track of the process.

Thanks everyone!

-Joe

Definitely looking forward to your results AGF but until then we need to move on.  Z

Just want to point out when I had my SHO with the LME 4+X tune, I used ACES IV, I still had audible knock under moderate partial throttle runs.  Obviously Torque Pro reflected this.  Ran an E85 blend next tank, and didn't experience any of that.  I stopped using ACES IV, and that's just my personal experience.

I would simply mention that all results may vary depending on the type,year and current mileage,condition of your current vehicle and the same rule may apply when using any such type of fuel,oil,additives.  Z

Quote from: staged_sho on October 14, 2016, 11:57:01 AM
Just want to point out when I had my SHO with the LME 4+X tune, I used ACES IV, I still had audible knock under moderate partial throttle runs.  Obviously Torque Pro reflected this.  Ran an E85 blend next tank, and didn't experience any of that.  I stopped using ACES IV, and that's just my personal experience.

This is why I have urged caution for those wanting to run a 100 octane race tune. (does anybody even know how to quantify that?) I think there is another member here along with AGF that had an OAR drop. I think DX runs a hot tune on his SHO but OAR never hit -1 on it.

"Octane" with a given fuel will be consistent from vehicle to vehicle, "octane effect" will not IMHO so I strongly urge caution and I think the best path is using a tuner along with logs and turning up the wick slowly.

Personally, I don't use ACES for the "octane effect", I use corn. (Brian is not a fan) I do use ACES for the lubricity left behind for the reduction in bore wear and its ability to reduce preignition fighting hot spots which I believe is valid and I think I've pinned down the ingredients. Also I have so much corn in the tank that there is no way I could add anything to testing. I'd have to piss in the gas tank after an all night bender to see a oar drop which is currently maxed at -1.15.

I have done some research into trade secrets laws, particularly with regard to MSDS. It seems equitable to all parties so I am comfortable with having discussion about it if AGF is OK with me staying in the thread.

Been away dealing with life stuff. I am ok with whatever discussion, in short if you can find the information on open public sources without a login/password or signing of an NDA its not a trade secret despite that the owner of the data may want to try and claim. Even if it was a trade secret, once it is out in the public sphere it no longer is. If you have access to confidential data I would not even mention anything from it if I were you. If it is something that you can click access to without a login wall, click agreement or signing of an NDA it is safe to share however that does not mean the party that owns it could not try and make your life a living hell in court (as usual the guy with the most money often wins just by filing motions and dragging things out to drain you).


Source: I am actually an IP law nut and have been for 20+ years (started with basic copyright) and actually work at a patent law services firm.

Did the results ever come back in for the oil tests?

FYI- The OP has NOT been active since November 18, 2016!  Z   :(

Even his website is out of date, so IDK.