This is the newly patented AJP turbo "boost regulator". When any of the large companies copy and replicate this idea for mass production at least give me some recognition and gratitude.....You're welcome in advance.
In the SHO and probably other ecoboost cars especially in automatics I think, there is an inherent nature to have boost spikes upon WOT upshifts...The turbos are spinning fast just before the shift then the engine RPM's suddenly fall and the turbo doesn't slow down fast enough and the engine isn't consuming the air at 4500 like it was at 6000. So airflow builds and boost spikes
If the throttle is left open then boost will spike...Ford uses the throttle in this case to close, then you get TIP spikes...When the throttle closes briefly it keeps MAP down to what it should have but the TIP pressure will spike because the airflow hits a wall(Throttle blade).
I've tried many ways to make the wastegates more responsive and adjust wastegate duty cycle tables but nothing worked well.
In a perfect world you want the throttle open for performance benefits but no boost spikes....I'll post pics of the benefits..Boost spikes are bad for fuel pressure, stft's and knock....Abrupt increase in load(boost) cause knock, fuel pressure gets depleted because fuel trims will increase to maintain afr because when pressure falls more injector duty is needed which sucks fuel from the rail...Pressure falls which can also lead to knock in direct injection where pressure is critical
In the first 2 pics pink is throttle, RPM is jagged and darker line is MAP(boost)...They aren't great examples because at higher commanded boost the boost spikes are worse so even though they look similar it really is a good improvement and fuel pressure was better...I'm trying not to crowd the pic with lines.
See boost peaks when the shift happens..When you use the throttle to control boost spikes, the peaks will be lower and the duration is shorter..Both of those improvements help.
The bottom pic with green line for boost is my tune with the "Boost regulator"...Peaks are drastically reduced
So how it works...I bought a very small gate...Tial MVS 38mm....It's really all you need..It bleeds off enough air...Think of it as a 1.5" boost leak when required. Then I bought an 38mm dumptube with a v band flange for a tial wastegate....A piece of rad hose. I cut the dumptube to the size I needed but did have to have the vband welded to the dump tube
I put the 17.9 psi spring set in the wastegate and you can see in the pics where I grabbed boost reference from and it only has to go into the bottom of the gate...
There is some special tuning that should go into this..If done wrong your turbo may be trying to hit a boost and the gate will just bleed it off...So if your desired tip is all over the place and your commanded boost is changing throughout the RPM's then you may have problems
I like to have the gate spring about 2 psi over desired boost...Wastegates start to crack open before the spring rating...If your gate is starting to open then you wont hit your boost and the turbos will be overworked because there is a boost leak basically....If you run the boost commanded well under the spring you put in the wastegate then you aren't getting the benefits of the mod.
You will know it's working properly because at the upshift when boost spikes you will hear air rushing out of the wastegate....Say I'm targeting 16 psi and on my upshift I approach 17.9 psi because of the boost spike, the gate opens and bleeds off boost then when boost falls back to near 16 the gate is closed and all is back to normal
It sounds complicated but it's really not
Makes sense to me AJ. Is there no way to replace the stock waste gates with these, or would that require disassembly of the turbos?
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Quote from: J-Will on July 31, 2016, 08:21:54 AM
Makes sense to me AJ. Is there no way to replace the stock waste gates with these, or would that require disassembly of the turbos?
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Yeah i think there are turbo wastegate replacements available, which i dont see the point of
But this is completely different...so turbo wastegates regulate the speed of the turbos...this is on the charge pipe side...it opens when too much air is going into the engine
You always need wastegates for the turbos...this is independent of that.
Basically you are forced to choose...do you want to keep the throttle open for performance but suffer the symptoms that come with boost spikes..or use throttle to control spikes which slightly maybe hinders performance?...you dont have to choose with this mod
Cool stuff AJP!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a boost limiter valve would work for this as well. It's built for this intended purpose I think.
I have a supercharged 5.0 Mustang and have researched boost limiter valves for it because my blower is too large for the motor I currently have. So, I have to run a big pulley which gives me too little boost at lower rpm's. My plan was to try a smaller pulley to bring boost in sooner and then use a boost limiting valve to bleed boost up higher since the blower flows too much air for the 302.
I think that same device could be used in this case. The only thing that I'm uncertain of is which one can react quicker. Maybe a wastegate is quicker? I think the boost limiting valve can flow more air though.
I could build a mount into my hot pipes as an option :)
This mod could have us MKS guys wishing we had the noise generator plumbing. We would need EPP's hot pipes :)
Sho me what a boost limiter valve is?...they make something called a tq booster for prochargers...its basically the same idea...you over pulley the blower to get low end boost then it bleeds off the amount above what you put in the wastegate spring..
I dont know what can be quicker than this....its a wastegate....the instant boost overcomes the pressure of the diaphragm spring it opens, bleeding off boost.....its a pressure regulator
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 31, 2016, 07:12:56 PM
Sho me what a boost limiter valve is?...they make something called a tq booster for prochargers...its basically the same idea...you over pulley the blower to get low end boost then it bleeds off the amount above what you put in the wastegate spring..
I dont know what can be quicker than this....its a wastegate....then instant boost overcomes the pressure of the diaphragm spring it opens, bleeding off boost.....its a pressure regulator
http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/boostlimitervalve.php (http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/boostlimitervalve.php)
I agree about the wastegate being fast. My fear with the boost limiter is that it may not be as fast, but it can probably handle higher amounts of airflow if needed.
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down
Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 31, 2016, 07:32:35 PM
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down
Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
I'll get a mount and make you a pipe, you can test and prove it out and then I can offer it. Work?
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on July 31, 2016, 07:49:46 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 31, 2016, 07:32:35 PM
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down
Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
I'll get a mount and make you a pipe, you can test and prove it out and then I can offer it. Work?
Sure...you saw my pics?..i came off of the noise maker pipe...you talking about a pipe from the intercooler outlet to the throttle body that would have a vband so you can mount the wastegate?
I bought the tial mvs 38mm..its the most compact i think....really dont need a large gate
Pat Pending anyone!!!. Z :)
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 31, 2016, 08:25:03 PM
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on July 31, 2016, 07:49:46 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on July 31, 2016, 07:32:35 PM
Yeah that may work too....but wastegates are meant to bleed alot of air and they are robust because they normally handle exhaust from the turbo amd meant to make alot of exhaust bypass the turbo to slow it down
Eco power parts you should make this and make it look pretty....its super functional
I'll get a mount and make you a pipe, you can test and prove it out and then I can offer it. Work?
Sure...you saw my pics?..i came off of the noise maker pipe...you talking about a pipe from the intercooler outlet to the throttle body that would have a vband so you can mount the wastegate?
I bought the tial mvs 38mm..its the most compact i think....really dont need a large gate
I sure did, easy peasy. I just need to weld up a pipe with a WG mount on it and send it to you.
Make sure everyone is fine with your work and then offer it as an option. Piece of cake as long as I can find an aluminum one which I'm not seeing :(
Is steel tubing cheaper anyway?
Dont you use an aluminum v-band for the bov for your hot pipe kit?...i thought You mount your bov near the throttle body for the hot pipes?
I do, I don't know if it's the same size or not, I'd have to check. I wouldn't want to use steel tubing for my hot pipes :)
Loving this development!
Can the hot pipe from just intercooler to throttle body with wastegage provision be an option?
I hope this help's any. Z ;)(http://i.imgur.com/G7vnUDR.jpg?1)
Wastegate ordered.. picking up tomrrow.. will stop by the local parts place for the "T", tubing, Pipe, sleeve on the way.... Thanks AJPTurbo!!!
What's the length on the pipe?
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Quote from: sholxgt on July 31, 2016, 10:53:40 PM
Loving this development!
Can the hot pipe from just intercooler to throttle body with wastegage provision be an option?
Yes it's called the noise maker eliminator pipe on my site, just need to try and secure a WG aluminum weldable mount
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on August 01, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on July 31, 2016, 10:53:40 PM
Loving this development!
Can the hot pipe from just intercooler to throttle body with wastegage provision be an option?
Yes it's called the noise maker eliminator pipe on my site, just need to try and secure a WG aluminum weldable mount
So the tial comes with a v clamp flange, it suppose to come with two... I am picking it up tomorrow, if you want, I can send you one of the flanges to model after?
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on August 01, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on August 01, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on July 31, 2016, 10:53:40 PM
Loving this development!
Can the hot pipe from just intercooler to throttle body with wastegage provision be an option?
Yes it's called the noise maker eliminator pipe on my site, just need to try and secure a WG aluminum weldable mount
So the tial comes with a v clamp flange, it suppose to come with two... I am picking it up tomorrow, if you want, I can send you one of the flanges to model after?
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Problem is the ones that come with the wastegate are steel...eco power parts uses an aluminum pipe, thats why i mentioned just using a steel inlet tube to theottle body
Mike why dont you like the steel?
Quote from: AJP turbo on August 01, 2016, 07:24:03 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on August 01, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on August 01, 2016, 06:58:39 PM
Quote from: sholxgt on July 31, 2016, 10:53:40 PM
Loving this development!
Can the hot pipe from just intercooler to throttle body with wastegage provision be an option?
Yes it's called the noise maker eliminator pipe on my site, just need to try and secure a WG aluminum weldable mount
So the tial comes with a v clamp flange, it suppose to come with two... I am picking it up tomorrow, if you want, I can send you one of the flanges to model after?
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Problem is the ones that come with the wastegate are steel...eco power parts uses an aluminum pipe, thats why i mentioned just using a steel inlet tube to theottle body
Mike why dont you like the steel?
If you want it done in stainless I can do it, not as pretty but also $150 MORE just for that one pipe so figure around $700 with WG and pipe. Not worth it.
I can have my machine shop guy copy the mount but would need to be in quantity and I would need to have at least 10 people willing to commit to the pipe/WG setup to make it worth the while.
Installed today... Preliminary datalogging looks promising! Will update after tune is loaded :-)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160802/50d89bf9262d46442f92f26202fda500.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160802/aa14c57d0146d682156687208ccca84b.jpg)
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on August 02, 2016, 07:12:09 PM
Installed today... Preliminary datalogging looks promising! Will update after tune is loaded :-)
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Props for speediness! My plans usually take weeks to complete. Heck you've done like 35 data logs and I haven't managed one since tuning my car. Thanks for reporting your findings.
Yea... When I see something that makes sense and would solve a problem I have...then I don't mess around...
Plus I get to work from home...so it makes it easier to get stuff done....
Datalogging only takes a minute.. I used the sctx4 handheld.. so when in out... I have a straight away I get a log :-)
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With AJPTurbo's wastegate modificatin...here are a couple datalogs..
No-WG: Obviously without the wastegate installed, using the throttle to control boost spikes. This is running around 14.3PSI.. notice the dips in fuel pressure and the boost spikes.
WG: With the wastegate installed, open throttle throughout the pull. This is running a bit more boost at 14.9 psi. Notice the fuel pressure only dips about 150psi in first gear and then holds full pressure throughout... and the boost spikes are very minimal and flat.
From an a$$ dyno perspective the wastegate setup completely blows using the throttle to control it out of the water.
Thanks to AJPTurbo for working with me on this!!! And providing the idea!!!
Glad everything is working in your favor StealBlueSho and you can finally enjoy the SHO with optimum results to SHO for throughout the summer.....might be a good time to take her to the track. Z :thumb:
From what I understand is that the setup /build/mod whatever you want to call it, that you made was really applicable only to the SHO side of the house because of the placement being on the noisemaker/noisemaker delete tubing. we should be able to attach this to another pipe on the MKS and make it universal. Is that right, EPP? I'm unusually excited about this.
My second assumption is that this does not have any real effect on tunes that are developed by unleashed/LMS. could I get input from you who have more experience than me on this topic, maybe even the LMS rep on the forum?
Thanks for the build log and sharing with us, this is really exciting!
It could be used for just about any tune but it needs to coincide with your tune and the boost level you run...your tuner needs to have precise boost control or the the mod would be useless or over effective which will over work the turbo
You would need somewhere on the intake side to mount the wastegate, since it entire purposes is to bleed off the boost spikes. Not sure if closer to the TIP is helpful or not..
From a tuning perspective I have no doubt there is considerations involved in making sure that the tune works with the mod. I did load up an unleashed tune that was targeting a flat 201kpa for desired boost when WOT and gave it a run with the 15.95psi external wastegate spring. My internal WGDC was upper 90% through an entire 1st through 3rd gear run..
The tune from AJPTurbo was targeting slightly higher at 203kpa under WOT.. with the same 15.95 spring in my external WG my internal WGDC on the turbos was significantly lower in the 70's and lower 80's so no doubt there is tuning involved...
Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't a blow-off valve in the same location serve the same purpose as this mod? Would a BOV be able to exhaust the pressure in the system quickly enough to be effective and prevent boost spikes?
It could work but a bov bleeds air off when you lift off the gas....i wanted something that bleeds the boost when i have my foot down
You are looking to regulate boost..thats what wastegates do..and there are alot of spring rates available i dont know if u have the selection with a bov
I purchased mine through Full-Race and IMHO great overall company and customer service and Corell at corell@full-race.com was very helpful in answering all my questions and here's the link and[spring rate] as AJP mentioned above. Z http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html (http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html) :thumb:
Quote from: ZSHO on September 30, 2016, 09:12:04 AM
I purchased mine through Full-Race and IMHO great overall company and customer service and Corell at corell@full-race.com was very helpful in answering all my questions and here's the link and[spring rate] as AJP mentioned above. Z http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html (http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html) :thumb:
Z the fundamental operating principle is completely different....there may be a few springs available but im not even sure which spring you would choose....bov use vacuum to act on the diaphragm to open the valve.....at wot there is no vacuum so you need a device that will open on boost which is exactly what a wastegate does....once a desired pressure is reached then the gate opens....bov's dont work that way at all.
Quote from: AJP turbo on September 30, 2016, 09:37:06 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on September 30, 2016, 09:12:04 AM
I purchased mine through Full-Race and IMHO great overall company and customer service and Corell at corell@full-race.com was very helpful in answering all my questions and here's the link and[spring rate] as AJP mentioned above. Z http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html (http://www.full-race.com/store/blow-off-valves/tial-bov-spring.html) :thumb:
Z the fundamental operating principle is completely different....there may be a few springs available but im not even sure which spring you would choose....bov use vacuum to act on the diaphragm to open the valve.....at wot there is no vacuum so you need a device that will open on boost which is exactly what a wastegate does....once a desired pressure is reached then the gate opens....bov's dont work that way at all.
True....just wanted to throw in my positive experience with Full race and especially there customer support and pretty sure the collective minds will come up with a viable solution. Z
this is a great idea ajp!
i have an atr bov im going to modify for this
didnt even know i could use it!
Quote from: SHOurpp on September 30, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
this is a great idea ajp!
i have an atr bov im going to modify for this
didnt even know i could use it!
I don't know if you can...Nobody has done it....Me thinks it's not the best way...I'm not sure why you would want to....It's completely backwards to try and adapt a device that's meant to hold boost under load and bleed pressure under vacuum.
A wastegate is meant to bleed boost or pressure under load
Quote from: AJP turbo on September 30, 2016, 09:33:23 PM
Quote from: SHOurpp on September 30, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
this is a great idea ajp!
i have an atr bov im going to modify for this
didnt even know i could use it!
I don't know if you can...Nobody has done it....Me thinks it's not the best way...I'm not sure why you would want to....It's completely backwards to try and adapt a device that's meant to hold boost under load and bleed pressure under vacuum.
A wastegate is meant to bleed boost or pressure under load
AJP is right. I thought a BOV was more or less just a device to release pressure on the intake side(to prevent compressor surge) vs a wastegate on the exhaust side to control turbo speed . . but after further reading it wouldn't work in this application since it gets sucked open instead of pushed open like a wastegate. My bad for introducing any confusion here. There's a company local to me that makes very affordable and good quality BOV's so i was just exploring it as an option vs a $250 wastegate.
$250 for the wastegate and then $35 or so to have the vband adapter welded to a dump pipe that needs to be bent in the correct position. It's not a cheap modification but well worth it if you are tuned by AJPTURBO.. running 0-60 all day @ 4.3second without break launching...
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Well worth it considering it costs same or less than a CAI!
Quote from: SHOdded on October 01, 2016, 02:26:44 PM
Well worth it considering it costs same or less than a CAI!
Yeah and i can see data improvements ....not so much with the cai
Quote from: SHOdded on October 01, 2016, 02:26:44 PM
Well worth it considering it costs same or less than a CAI!
Yea. Bradley was originally using the throttle blade to control the boost spikes.. same tune but with this WG mod to control the spikes made a HUGE difference... Night and day... If it was between a CAI/Exhaust or this mod... I would take this mod..
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Quote from: AJP turbo on September 30, 2016, 09:33:23 PM
Quote from: SHOurpp on September 30, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
this is a great idea ajp!
i have an atr bov im going to modify for this
didnt even know i could use it!
I don't know if you can...Nobody has done it....Me thinks it's not the best way...I'm not sure why you would want to....It's completely backwards to try and adapt a device that's meant to hold boost under load and bleed pressure under vacuum.
A wastegate is meant to bleed boost or pressure under load
i reread it -i get it-in addition to the factory gate
Quote from: StealBlueSho on October 01, 2016, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 01, 2016, 02:26:44 PM
Well worth it considering it costs same or less than a CAI!
Yea. Bradley was originally using the throttle blade to control the boost spikes.. same tune but with this WG mod to control the spikes made a HUGE difference... Night and day... If it was between a CAI/Exhaust or this mod... I would take this mod..
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^good to hear some feedback from someone who's performed the mod and felt the improvement. this will definitely be in the future plans for me, just can't swing the cash right now. however. . a sub $300 mod that helps control boost spike and provides ANY performance improvement is a damn good value IMO. 😉 😉 vendors!!
Quote from: 8nutz8 on October 01, 2016, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on October 01, 2016, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on October 01, 2016, 02:26:44 PM
Well worth it considering it costs same or less than a CAI!
Yea. Bradley was originally using the throttle blade to control the boost spikes.. same tune but with this WG mod to control the spikes made a HUGE difference... Night and day... If it was between a CAI/Exhaust or this mod... I would take this mod..
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^good to hear some feedback from someone who's performed the mod and felt the improvement. this will definitely be in the future plans for me, just can't swing the cash right now. however. . a sub $300 mod that helps control boost spike and provides ANY performance improvement is a damn good value IMO. 😉 😉 vendors!!
I would highly recommend talking to AJPTurbo about having him tune you for this mod if he is taking customer's right now. There are some tuning adjustments that need to be addressed. He goes into some of it in the beginning of this thread.
It really helps because with this mod and AJPTurbos tune the boost is almost a flat line across... So there are no wild dips or jumps in boost so it just pulls through all the gears. And since you don't fight the big boost spikes at shifts your fuel pressure stays nice and strong.
Oh...and you get a really cool blow off valve sound when you step on it... And then if you are VTA those woosh too when you let off.. I have gotten some weird looks from the Subaru guys when they catch up at the next light...
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QuoteI have gotten some weird looks from the Subaru guys when they catch up at the next light...
hahaha that's golden! and yes adjustments will be made with the tune when I do it
So if I understand correctly you can't use the waste gate with out blow off valves because if the throttle closes before you have enough enough boost to open the waste gate it will trap the boost.
Quote from: 2013blksho on October 04, 2016, 01:54:19 PM
So if I understand correctly you can't use the waste gate with out blow off valves because if the throttle closes before you have enough enough boost to open the waste gate it will trap the boost.
Why would you not have blow off valves?.....this is a simple device added to the charge piping to allow the system to bleed off excess boost at wot only....has nothing to do with part throttle and lift off conditions....car operates as it should except will it makes it so the ecu doesnt use throttle blade to regulate boost
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on July 31, 2016, 05:42:01 PM
I could build a mount into my hot pipes as an option :)
Any movement on this option? I am getting ready to replace my plastic with aluminum pipes, painted to look nice under the hood. I would like to get on board with this waste gate setup.
Quote from: FistyMcgee on October 04, 2016, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on July 31, 2016, 05:42:01 PM
I could build a mount into my hot pipes as an option :)
Any movement on this option? I am getting ready to replace my plastic with aluminum pipes, painted to look nice under the hood. I would like to get on board with this waste gate setup.
None, you'd have to order them uncoated and then have someone weld a tube so you can do what AJP did with a rubber hose.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on October 04, 2016, 06:21:47 PM
Quote from: FistyMcgee on October 04, 2016, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on July 31, 2016, 05:42:01 PM
I could build a mount into my hot pipes as an option :)
Any movement on this option? I am getting ready to replace my plastic with aluminum pipes, painted to look nice under the hood. I would like to get on board with this waste gate setup.
None, you'd have to order them uncoated and then have someone weld a tube so you can do what AJP did with a rubber hose.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the issue was getting a prototype done, but... wouldn't you just need aluminum pipe of the same ID as the wastegate Vband flange ID, then weld that pipe to the "noisemaker eliminator pipe" on one end, and an aluminum vband flange on the other end(something like this? http://www.jegs.com/i/TiAL-Sport/768/004809/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/TiAL-Sport/768/004809/10002/-1))
Just curious because I want to do hotpipes down the road, and I know this wastegate mod is something I will want to do as well, since boost spikes are creating headaches for me.
Could I use these parts to craft this for my car since there are no other options available yet?
https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe (https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe)
https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0 (https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0)
I'd have to cut my intake hope to splice the t-pipe in, but it *shouls* work, shouldn't it? The 2.5" t-pipe is just for an example. I have to go measure the hose to make sure that's the right size.
I wouldn't use that wastegate on the turbo, but it should be fine in this application, right? Other than not being able to build boost, I can't imagine anything catastrophic happening even if the cheap WG fails. Also, since that WG only comes with 2 springs, can I use a boost controller to fine tune it?
Obviously this has to wait until SCT decides I'm allowed to get a tune...
AJP, I have a Tial MV-S on order (and SHO intake tubing with the noisemaker junction) to plumb in to my XPL0DR for the 91 tune.
Just out of curiosity, do you recommend any sort of periodic maintenance for the Tial as far as lubrication and or spring changes? I presume in this low heat application, that it will have better longevity.
Since one side of the waste gate is open inside the engine compartment, would you advise some sort of filter to cover the outlet port and protect against contamination or is that overkill?
Documentation is lacking on the Tial website, so I figured I'd check with the "patent holder" of this boost regulator. :)
I think they are pretty robust...And since wastegates are typically used on the exhaust they are designed for hot temps....so it being on the charge piping and will only see temps of 150 or less and compared to 1000 degrees id expect it to last a lifetime
I expected to see some residue near the outlet but I didn't on mine...but it really isnt open that often...basically wot upshifts for a second or so
I have no residue on mine either... Very clean, looks as good as the day I bought it...
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Quote from: AJP turbo on November 08, 2016, 05:13:50 PM
I expected to see some residue near the outlet but I didn't on mine...but it really isnt open that often...basically wot upshifts for a second or so
Quote from: StealBlueSho on November 08, 2016, 05:14:47 PM
I have no residue on mine either... Very clean, looks as good as the day I bought it...
Cool, thanks guys. One other quick installation question. I was looking at AJP's pictures at the beginning of the thread as well as the pics in StealBlueSho's FS thread, and I was trying to figure out if you guys actually secured the wastegate to anything.
It looks like it's just kind of laying on top of the A/C lines. On my Explorer, it appears that the A/C lines are fixed and the engine may have some movement relative to them, so I wasn't too keen on just letting it lay there in open space.
I was trying to find a way to locate the wg more securely, but plumbing looks like it might get complex.
So the radiator hose I used was strong enough to hold it in place with very little movement, it didn't really rest on the AC lines.
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Quote from: StealBlueSho on November 11, 2016, 04:10:34 PM
So the radiator hose I used was strong enough to hold it in place with very little movement, it didn't really rest on the AC lines.
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same here. i have a very small section of hose tho. the pipe makes most of the bend and is a pretty rigid setup . . plenty of clearance (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161112/b2161617cb0d5f2a853aeacb0f2ac34d.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161112/b9acc2967aba6e56690f97c5e041a449.jpg)
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Here's a "pro tip" for installing/changing springs in your Tial wastegate. I originally found this suggestion here (http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210172), so I can't take credit, but I also wanted to point out a couple other observations.
Try using a "Quick Grip" clamp to compress the springs!
(https://i.imgur.com/2ekWJDsh.jpg)
Pick a screw, any ONE screw and remove it. Then place the wg in the clamp with the empty screw pocket aligned with the backbone of the clamp. This will give you room to remove all the other screws with the allen wrench.
(https://i.imgur.com/okdW4Rmh.jpg)
NOTE: Once all screws have been removed, place the end of the clamp on the floor and apply firm downward pressure before pulling the release trigger to prevent parts from flying everywhere!
Place your new springs and put the assembly back between the jaws. Slowly compress the clamp and confirm your springs are properly seated in their grooves (both ends).
(https://i.imgur.com/Ng97Wq9h.jpg)
Once fully compressed, reinstall your screws.
I opted to use the Irwin Quick-Grip "Medium-Duty" clamp, which has slightly larger jaw pads than the light duty version and 300lb of clamp force. The unit pictured is the 6" size with 3-1/16" throat depth.
Hopefully this saves someone some broken fingers, eyeballs, or the family cat from the ill fate of high spring pressure. :)
^ i've been meaning to pick one of those up for this purpose. Trying to compress 17 psi spring by hand is not fun! lol
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Bullworker anyone?
(http://www.nurturingpotential.net/bullworker4.JPG)
https://smile.amazon.com/IRWIN-QUICK-GRIP-One-Handed-Medium-Duty-1964718/dp/B001DK7SJM (https://smile.amazon.com/IRWIN-QUICK-GRIP-One-Handed-Medium-Duty-1964718/dp/B001DK7SJM)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81UtrQZaPEL._SL1500_.jpg)
Here is how I performed AJP Turbo's wastegate mod on my 2013 XSport. Tuning still to be completed...
DISCLAIMER: The long term durability of the bonded joint in this write-up has not been established. Attempt at your own risk. Consider adding a 1.5" coupler with hose clamps as a back-up to the bonded joint.
HARDWARE
Tial MV-S Wastegate Kit (includes v-band flanges, springs, fittings, plugs, etc) (http://tialsport.com/index.php/tial-products/wastegates/62-mvsx)
SHO Intake Elbow with Noisemaker Port (FORD PN AA5Z-6F073-B) (http://www.tascaparts.com/oe-ford/aa5z6f073b)
SHO TIP Sensor Screws (x2, FORD PN W506843-S439) (http://www.tascaparts.com/oe-ford/w506843s439)
1.5" OD Stainless Steel Elbow (KEGWORDS PN 44-731/1H) (http://www.kegworks.com/curved-flush-elbow-fitting-90-degree-brushed-satin-stainless-steel-1-5-od)
1/2" Corbin Clamps (x6, NAPA PN 705-1302)
1/4" Vacuum Hose, 6ft package (NAPA PN NBH H453) (https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/NBGH453/NBGH453)
1/4" Vacuum Tee (NAPA PN CRB 2607) (https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/CRB2607/CRB2607)
TOOLS/MISC
J-B Weld Plastic Bonder (http://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-50139-Plastic-Adhesive/dp/B01IBOK7FE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1480803131&sr=8-2&keywords=jb+weld+plastic+bonder)
Permatex Ultra Copper Silicone Gasket Maker (http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-81878-Maximum-Temperature-Silicone/dp/B0002UEOPA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480803170&sr=8-1&keywords=permatex+ultra+copper)
80-grit sandpaper
Brakleen (non-chlorinated)
Lint free cloth
Q-Tips
Dremel w/ Cut-off wheel (to cut off plastic molded hose clamps from SHO tube assembly)
Bench grider/file (to size stainless shoulder, as needed)
Vise (to hold stainless elbow for cutting)
Hacksaw/Band saw (to cut stainless elbow)
Welder (outsource, as necessary)
PART 1 - Hose Configuration (SHO vs XSport)
SHO - Simple. Use your OE intake hose assembly after removing noisemaker.
XSport - From SHO assembly (AA5Z-6F073-B), cut off plastic molded hose clamp to remove 3" dia hose to CAC. OPTIONAL: Cut off plastic molded hose clamp on 2.5" hose (to TB). Remove the metal band clamp from the 3" portion of discarded hose and reinstall on the short section of hose. You will re-use the OE 3" hose from the CAC to the elbow.
(https://i.imgur.com/qzWuwM2h.jpg)
PART 2 - Elbow Installation (same process for SHO or XSport)
Test fit the stainless elbow in the noisemaker port. You want a VERY TIGHT fit. Skim the shoulder of the stainless elbow (bench grinder or file) as necessary to allow a very tight fit. With a DRY joint, you should be able to push/twist the elbow into place BY HAND. HINT: It will be much easier to do this with the plastic elbow removed from the vehicle.
With the stainless elbow installed in the elbow, reinstall into the vehicle, and tighten down hose connections. Be sure to confirm the TIP sensor clears the engine cover, when installed. NOTE: XSport owners will need new sensor screws! The XSport sensor screws are too long and will strip the thread pockets on the SHO elbow (ask me how I know).
Rotate the stainless elbow until it is pointing in the desired direction. Be sure to consider the size of the wastegate and the length of the v-band flanges, as these will need to be welded to the stainless elbow. Also consider the vacuum banjo fittings (from the Tial kit) and clearances to allow engine movement and hood closure.
Mark the stainless elbow and plastic noisemaker port to ensure proper alignment for adhesive later on. Mark the wastegate end of the stainless elbow where it needs to be cut.
(https://i.imgur.com/PjiIywxh.jpg)
Remove plastic elbow from vehicle. Confirm orienting marks are present, and remove the stainless elbow. Cut the stainless elbow at the desired angle. File or grind to a flat plane.
(https://i.imgur.com/dpZQYPph.jpg)
Weld v-band flanges to stainless elbow.
(https://i.imgur.com/uKzLqaeh.jpg)
Note depth of shoulder protrusion into plastic elbow. Sand inside of plastic tube with 80-grit sand paper to roughen surface.
Clean scuffed noisemaker port AND the shoulder of the sainless elbow THOROUGHLY with a LINT FREE rag and solvent (I used non-chlorinated Brakleen).
Using a q-tip, apply a bead of Ultra Copper to the last 0.25" of the plastic elbow.
Mix 2-part urethane adhesive (I used JB Weld Plastic Bonder, Black). Apply to scuffed inside surface of the noisemaker port. Only a very thin layer is required - just enough to fill the scuffs. Too much will push out into the Ultra Copper sealant. Cut off the fuzzy end of a Q-tip leaving the paper shaft to apply the Plastic Bonder.
(https://i.imgur.com/T6mtbElh.jpg)
Insert the elbow 1/8"-1/4". Apply a light coating of the plastic bonder adhesive to the perimeter of the elbow. With a firm even pressure, press the stainless elbow into the noisemaker port with a slight twisting motion until it is fully seated and your marks are aligned.
(https://i.imgur.com/zizWU9lh.jpg)
Immediately wipe excess adhesive up with a paper towel (outside and inside). No solvent should be necessary. Leave to cure per your adhesive & gasket maker instructions.
(https://i.imgur.com/Mgi5hW0h.jpg)
Install wastegate, and hook up your boost reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/9ZAbWZQh.jpg)
DONE! :)
(https://i.imgur.com/xPOnmeEh.jpg)
WOW, nice writeup :alkashi:
So I'm trying to decide how to mount this on my FuSpo and I'm not sure if I the route I'm planning is the safest. My current plan is to simply make a steel t-pipe and splice it into the middle of the rubber hose. Is it safe to cut that hose, or will cutting it compromise the integrity of the hose? I plan to fab up a custom intake system, but that is probably a ways out.
Quote from: BOT_ROCKET on December 04, 2016, 02:17:08 AM
So I'm trying to decide how to mount this on my FuSpo and I'm not sure if I the route I'm planning is the safest. My current plan is to simply make a steel t-pipe and splice it into the middle of the rubber hose. Is it safe to cut that hose, or will cutting it compromise the integrity of the hose? I plan to fab up a custom intake system, but that is probably a ways out.
I'm not at all familiar with the Fusion. Does this look like what you have?
(http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2016/08/2017-Ford-Fusion-Sport-engine.jpg)
I assume you're talking about putting a tee into the hose from the CAC to the throttle body (pictured here toward the left of the picture/passenger side)?
Does that rubber hose connect to an elbow, or does it connect directly to the throttle body? Based on some bad internet searching, I think it connects directly to the TB? If that's the case, then if you spliced in a tee, technically you would have the same number of possible failure points as the SHO or XSport which contain an elbow and 2 extra hose clamps between the CAC outlet and throttle body as compared to the Fusion (again this assumes you have one hose and two clamps from the CAC to the TB). EDIT: from the exploded view (attached) on fordparts.com, it looks like there is a (rigid?) tube from the cac to the rubber hose, which then connects to the throttle body.
If you went this route, you'd want to make sure your tee has some good tube beads to keep your hose from popping off, and use some wide beefy clamps. :) Also, you'd want to be sure you don't remove too much hose material to splice in the tee. This hose needs to allow for some flexibility of relative motion between the engine and the fixed position CAC outlet port. It's also kind of hard to tell from the images I've seen, but you'll want to make sure you have room to close your hood. Looks tight under there!
The preceding is just my opinion.
(https://i.imgur.com/2N6snEsh.png)
Quote from: BOT_ROCKET on December 04, 2016, 02:17:08 AM
So I'm trying to decide how to mount this on my FuSpo and I'm not sure if I the route I'm planning is the safest. My current plan is to simply make a steel t-pipe and splice it into the middle of the rubber hose. Is it safe to cut that hose, or will cutting it compromise the integrity of the hose? I plan to fab up a custom intake system, but that is probably a ways out.
See attached. I would hypothesize the dashed yellow line would provide the most critical flex point in that hose. As the engine rocks fore or aft, I would expect the radius of that dashed line to decrease and increase (flatten), respectively. This would probably not be the ideal place to splice in a rigid steel tee.
Keep in mind, this is just
my HYPOTHESIS. Further experimentation is needed for this to become theory or law. ;) I expect others will weigh in as well.
If/when you decide to take on the challenge, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to have an extra OE hose available in case of unexpected failure.
(https://i.imgur.com/5Nda1abh.jpg)
I *think* I could cut out the section that I've marked in red and have enough straight hose to get clamps on there. I've created my own bead roller out of a modified wire crimper. I also picked up an exhaust pipe cutter so I can create my own pipes with good beads.
I'm pretty sure if I mount the valve close to the pipe there should be room. I think this weekend I will pill the hose off and get some measurements so I can start a custom pipe. That way I wont have to worry about cutting the hose.
I suppose that would be the preferred method so I can return to stock if needed. I'm sure buying a factory hose like that costs roughly one million dollars.
You definitely have a challenge ahead of you, Bot, what with the really tight packaging on these newer Ecoboosts. Good luck in your mission, and hope for the best :)
New FuSport hose wasn't terrible on fordparts. $84, I think it was. Might find it a few bucks cheaper elsewhere.
Good luck. Keep us posted! :)
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I was looking into getting this done soon. I just want to double check all the things that I would need to do this.
Tial 38mm mvs
38mm v band dump tube (cut and bent to liking)
1/4" vacuum hose
1/4" vacuum tee
Small length of radiator hose
couple of hose clamps
Am I missing anything?
Quote from: BOT_ROCKET on December 05, 2016, 02:05:38 AM
I *think* I could cut out the section that I've marked in red and have enough straight hose to get clamps on there. I've created my own bead roller out of a modified wire crimper. I also picked up an exhaust pipe cutter so I can create my own pipes with good beads.
I'm pretty sure if I mount the valve close to the pipe there should be room. I think this weekend I will pill the hose off and get some measurements so I can start a custom pipe. That way I wont have to worry about cutting the hose.
I suppose that would be the preferred method so I can return to stock if needed. I'm sure buying a factory hose like that costs roughly one million dollars.
You would need to find somewhere to secure the wastegate as to not add stress to the rubber hose. Otherwise I would foresee some issues with leaking and/or eventually not staying secured to the rubber hose.
One reason it works so well on the Taurus is because the noisemaker section of the charge pipe is already reinforced with harder plastic. It can handle the weight of the WG just fine.
Quick question. What is the diameter of the dump tube? I found several like this, on ebay, with the vband already welded. Would this work?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Stainless-Dump-tube-Flanged-for-V-Band-for-Tial-MVS-38mm-Wastegate-/262830922805?nav=SEARCH
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Quote from: Linemonkey on February 25, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Quick question. What is the diameter of the dump tube? I found several like this, on ebay, with the vband already welded. Would this work?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Stainless-Dump-tube-Flanged-for-V-Band-for-Tial-MVS-38mm-Wastegate-/262830922805?nav=SEARCH
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I'm pretty sure the outlet flange is a smaller diameter than the inlet, so you'd want to make sure that flange is compatible with the inlet side, otherwise you might need to weld a second larger flange to step up the diameter. (See picture 4 in post #66 above. I welded two vband flanges together to go from 1.5" tube up to the inlet diameter.
As far as OD of the tube, you'd need 1.5" to match the OD of the noisemaker port.
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Quote from: Linemonkey on February 25, 2017, 10:09:06 AM
Quick question. What is the diameter of the dump tube? I found several like this, on ebay, with the vband already welded. Would this work?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Stainless-Dump-tube-Flanged-for-V-Band-for-Tial-MVS-38mm-Wastegate-/262830922805?nav=SEARCH (http://m.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Stainless-Dump-tube-Flanged-for-V-Band-for-Tial-MVS-38mm-Wastegate-/262830922805?nav=SEARCH)
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I think, but you will need to take one of the Vbands that come with the tial wastegate and weld it to the the Vband on the dumptube you buy. The vband on the dump tube you buy is meant to go on the outlet of the wastegate.....The way I did mine, I connected the dumptube to from the noisemaker hole to the INLET of the wastegate and the Vband on the tial is smaller if I remember.
So essentially you weld one of the tial vbands to the vband of the dumptube so you can use the clamp to connect the dumptube to the inlet of the tial gate then I just used rad hose to connect the dumptube to the noisemaker hole.
I see. That makes sense. Thanks for the reply!
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The sizing on the MV-S is 1.75" for the OD for the VBand side that you need.
I detailed all of my parts used, for my setup, here: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449)
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
The sizing on the MV-S is 1.75" for the OD for the VBand side that you need.
I detailed all of my parts used, for my setup, here: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449)
Thanks a lot. I don't know how I missed that
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Quote from: Linemonkey on February 27, 2017, 10:31:01 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2017, 10:12:12 AM
The sizing on the MV-S is 1.75" for the OD for the VBand side that you need.
I detailed all of my parts used, for my setup, here: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,7171.msg109449.html#msg109449)
Thanks a lot. I don't know how I missed that
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No problem man, there are a plethora of threads on teh boost regulator mod, everyone does it a little different
Quote from: BOT_ROCKET on November 06, 2016, 03:38:07 AM
Could I use these parts to craft this for my car since there are no other options available yet?
https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe (https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe)
https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0 (https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0)
I'd have to cut my intake hope to splice the t-pipe in, but it *shouls* work, shouldn't it? The 2.5" t-pipe is just for an example. I have to go measure the hose to make sure that's the right size.
I wouldn't use that wastegate on the turbo, but it should be fine in this application, right? Other than not being able to build boost, I can't imagine anything catastrophic happening even if the cheap WG fails. Also, since that WG only comes with 2 springs, can I use a boost controller to fine tune it?
Obviously this has to wait until SCT decides I'm allowed to get a tune...
BOT,
How did your install turn out? I was looking at those exact parts myself. I am keeping my eye open for WG options, and see a great many with that 2 bolt flange setup. The trick I am having is finding an adjustable one that goes to the pressures we need.
Quote from: lamrith on March 30, 2017, 04:59:39 PM
Quote from: BOT_ROCKET on November 06, 2016, 03:38:07 AM
Could I use these parts to craft this for my car since there are no other options available yet?
https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe (https://www.amazon.com/Turbo-Valve-Flange-Adapter-Type-S/dp/B00U4A3GGG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1478420246&sr=8-21&keywords=bov+t+pipe)
https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0 (https://www.amazon.com/Bolt-External-Exhaust-Manifold-Wastegate/dp/B00N1B62G6/ref=pd_sbs_263_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Z8G2B2QHSSNKD6P4SSB0)
I'd have to cut my intake hope to splice the t-pipe in, but it *shouls* work, shouldn't it? The 2.5" t-pipe is just for an example. I have to go measure the hose to make sure that's the right size.
I wouldn't use that wastegate on the turbo, but it should be fine in this application, right? Other than not being able to build boost, I can't imagine anything catastrophic happening even if the cheap WG fails. Also, since that WG only comes with 2 springs, can I use a boost controller to fine tune it?
Obviously this has to wait until SCT decides I'm allowed to get a tune...
BOT,
How did your install turn out? I was looking at those exact parts myself. I am keeping my eye open for WG options, and see a great many with that 2 bolt flange setup. The trick I am having is finding an adjustable one that goes to the pressures we need.
I ended up snagging SteelBlu's old tial, but I'm not going to install until: A) AJP gets the tuning kinks worked out for my car, and B) I get the full intake built and tuned.
Forgive me for not knowing as I am new to the SHO scene. Coming from a Nissan Juke Nismo RS. This is a whole different beast.
Question. Can you use a MBC with this motor?
If so and you want to stop Boost spiking. We solved this with a MBC. Last year while Dynoing. My Boost solenoid failed completely. During a pull mind you. Lets just say my tuner caught the over boost in time. 26psi(and it was still climbing) when he shut her down. So. We sourced another Solenoid at the Nissan dealer($60) and to prevent this from happening again. He plumbed a MBC in the boost circuit to act as a relief valve. The solenoid still controls the boost but the MBC is adjusted so it cannot go over a certain adjusted PSI. Set the Boost to 20psi and MBC to just a little over that and no more boost spikes. It works awesome.
I dont know if this idea can be used in this situation since there are two turbos etc. Its above my understanding of this engine at this point.
Dumb question after reading through this. I understand how it makes fuel and boost control better but does it make an actual difference in ET/HP?
Quote from: Vortech347 on May 09, 2017, 02:07:58 AM
Dumb question after reading through this. I understand how it makes fuel and boost control better but does it make an actual difference in ET/HP?
Nope, just controls nasty boost spikes which helps with pressure drops on the rail.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 09, 2017, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on May 09, 2017, 02:07:58 AM
Dumb question after reading through this. I understand how it makes fuel and boost control better but does it make an actual difference in ET/HP?
Nope, just controls nasty boost spikes which helps with pressure drops on the rail.
I would venture to say if anything, it might lower peak hp/tq since your not dealing with those big spikes anymore... but it would create a smoother torque/HP curve....
There are a couple dynos with and without it...
I wouldnt be surprised if it helped power a bit...everything is more efficient if the throttle is open
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 09, 2017, 04:41:21 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if it helped power a bit...everything is more efficient if the throttle is open
Yup, smoother power band... less peaks and valleys on a dyno sheet...
Open throttle vs throttle controlled load has been proven to increase power on the Ford Focus.
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 09, 2017, 04:41:21 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if it helped power a bit...everything is more efficient if the throttle is open
I am thinking (usually dangerous) this would also let you as a tuner tighten the screws a bit and push the fuel system to get more power out of it since you do not have to account for the pressure spikes and resultant fuel demands?
Quote from: lamrith on May 09, 2017, 05:29:04 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 09, 2017, 04:41:21 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if it helped power a bit...everything is more efficient if the throttle is open
I am thinking (usually dangerous) this would also let you as a tuner tighten the screws a bit and push the fuel system to get more power out of it since you do not have to account for the pressure spikes and resultant fuel demands?
My tune for the regulator mod did allow for a higher commanded boost, as fuel control was a bit better. YMMV.
Brad tunes for it, so he would be the best to fill you in. But from what I can tell... it's a balancing act between boost, IATs, and wastegate duty cycle...
I used an ebay 38mm wastegate from E Motor USA, it was only $70 with a dump tube! I swapped in a lighter spring so I could use an MBC to dial in the wastegate to just catch the boost spikes without having to find the exact combination of springs to work with the tune.
(https://imgur.com/a/GcjJa8k)
How long have you been using this setup and how is it working so far?
Quote from: Brewineer on February 13, 2019, 05:35:51 PM
I used an ebay 38mm wastegate from E Motor USA, it was only $70 with a dump tube! I swapped in a lighter spring so I could use an MBC to dial in the wastegate to just catch the boost spikes without having to find the exact combination of springs to work with the tune.
(https://imgur.com/a/GcjJa8k)
That may be giving you the result that you are trying to achieve but a problem with that, depending on where you are getting your boost reference, is that you are bleeding off the boost reference when using a manual boost controller. And the wastegates duty cycles are dependant on how much signal is coming in and out of the solenoids
Which is why some people may think the wastegates mod makes the car run hotter or makes the turbos run harder due to seeing higher wastegates duties ...
There really is no way it would make things run harder or hotter unless you have a spring pressure too low or bleeding excessive boost reference and affecting what is going in and out of the solenoids
It really was meant to be a simple passive setup
Think of the boost reference line that goes in and out of the boost solenoids as being metered air....you don't want to lose any of it
I installed it last night!
I had tested the system with a bike pump to see that it was actuating correctly and changing with the MBC adjustments. I ended up plugging the bleed port on the MBC and got the boost reference right at the 3-port.
At First it was set too low and was a reliable boost leak at 10 PSI, and then turned it up to start opening around 12 PSI. I will tinker with it a bit more today. I may end up installing the 14 PSI springs and not mess with the MBC as the commanded boost is 12 PSI (I'd better double check).
Quote from: Brewineer on February 13, 2019, 06:14:19 PM
I installed it last night!
I had tested the system with a bike pump to see that it was actuating correctly and changing with the MBC adjustments. I ended up plugging the bleed port on the MBC and got the boost reference right at the 3-port.
At First it was set too low and was a reliable boost leak at 10 PSI, and then turned it up to start opening around 12 PSI. I will tinker with it a bit more today. I may end up installing the 14 PSI springs and not mess with the MBC as the commanded boost is 12 PSI (I'd better double check).
Yeah buddy I would try that...look at your "dsd tip" and put a spring rates for 2 psi higher ...remember wastegates generally "crack" a bit lower than their spring rating .
If your desired tip is less than 190 kpa then a 14 psi spring should work...if you are 190 kpa or more then the 14 isn't high enough...just roughing that in my head at the moment
Being as someone who had this modification... and added a MBC...just put the correct springs in it and ditch the MBC...
You will never quit tinkering with it... you get it set right and then a week or so later it needs an adjustment... I think it drove Brad nuts..
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 13, 2019, 11:17:59 PM
I think it drove Brad nuts..
Yeah but it was fun....We did some pretty extensive back and forths!
Did a quick log last night and I would need to lower the limit on the MBC to catch the boost spike at WOT shift (you can see the typical boost spike and throttle closing). I did hear the wastegate woosh a little, but clearly not enough.
Doing another WOT pull from a lower speed and just smashing the pedal resulted in significant oscillations (I heard the wastegate woosh intermittedly) when it "tried" to "catch" the initial boost spike (13.9PSI). Of course, the plots lines are all over the place in the 2nd log photo.
It seems the combination of a lighter wastegate spring and an MBC allows the wastegate to open too much too quickly and interfere with the car's boost control methods.
TIP DSD is 185 kpa at steady state boost (~11 PSI) so I'm going to try the 14 PSI spring set.
(https://i.imgur.com/ezWo4KB.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/RbD1UAp.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/npAoWTn.jpg)
Of course it's interfering....you are losing the boost reference...the ecu doesn't know where it went lol
Usually MBC's are used to increase boost and manipulate the reference on the wastegates...it just seems counterproductive to introduce another component as in the Mbc...they make wastegates springs about every 1.5 psi so why not simply select what you need?
Pick the spring that allows you to only hear the "whoosh" on wot upshifts and give it full reference that way you aren't losing the reference signal
So I did this a couple years ago, and if you are dead set on getting the MBC dialed in (weather dependent I might add) here is what I ended up doing...
I used a spring setup that was almost right at desired, and then used the MBC to dial it in the rest of the way. If I used a spring that was too heavy, I was unable to get it to crack open at the correct the time, and the MBC is only there to keep the wastge gate closed longer than the spring allows.
So.. used a spring that will allow the WG to crack earlier than you want, and then dial it in with the MBC... I was able to keep fuel rail pressure almost perfect, but run much higher boost than I would normally since I didn't deal with boost spikes...
This log is pretty gnarly... holding 16.5psi and almost perfect rail pressure even with the spikes... AJPTurbo tuned throughout this process..
Quote from: AJP turbo on February 14, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
Of course it's interfering....you are losing the boost reference...the ecu doesn't know where it went lol
Usually MBC's are used to increase boost and manipulate the reference on the wastegates...it just seems counterproductive to introduce another component as in the Mbc...they make wastegates springs about every 1.5 psi so why not simply select what you need?
Pick the spring that allows you to only hear the "whoosh" on wot upshifts and give it full reference that way you aren't losing the reference signal
I highly recommend doing it this way... the MBC is fun to play with, hard to KEEP dialed in... if the tial wg you purchased doesnt have the correct spring setup, you can order additional springs to dial it in correctly without adding an additional component. Being I have been down this road before with the MBC.. I will say it again. Just get the correct WG Springs and call it a day...
Also, not sure who is tuning this for you as your signature says unleashed, but Brad did a hell of a job getting mine tuned correctly, and there are tweaks needed for this modification. I highly recommended PMing him if you are not running his tune already..
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 14, 2019, 02:18:32 PM
So I did this a couple years ago, and if you are dead set on getting the MBC dialed in (weather dependent I might add) here is what I ended up doing...
I used a spring setup that was almost right at desired, and then used the MBC to dial it in the rest of the way. If I used a spring that was too heavy, I was unable to get it to crack open at the correct the time, and the MBC is only there to keep the wastge gate closed longer than the spring allows.
So.. used a spring that will allow the WG to crack earlier than you want, and then dial it in with the MBC... I was able to keep fuel rail pressure almost perfect, but run much higher boost than I would normally since I didn't deal with boost spikes...
This log is pretty gnarly... holding 16.5psi and almost perfect rail pressure even with the spikes... AJPTurbo tuned throughout this process..
Using a lighter spring but using an mbc to keep it held shut is basically the same as using a heavier spring...but then as the weather changes you may not have the same consistancy which is what you had if I remember.....and I've thought a lot about this since then but you always believed that the mod made things run hotter and turbos harder because the wgdc was higher but in reality the turbos were not running harder...the increased wgdc was because the the reference was lost through the mbc and the ecu needed to increase wgdc to get the proper boost reference to the turbo wastegates to compensate for what was lost
1 psi springs are enough to give a beneficial difference...boost spikes don't have to be completely motivated to see a benefit you just need to take the edge off....you can see 4 psi spikes on the 2-3 shift...taking the edge off helps a lot without needing to complicate things with an mbc
2000 psi dead nuts even is not really critical ...people have been running 1000 psi on terrible tunes for years with very few failures...we all know who they are and have see them...id rather keep it simple and less components and if a spring makes it better I'd rather do that than continuously messing with an mbc
If the fuel pressure only drops to 1700 for a second without an mbc id do that than to use an mbc and get the ecu upset because the boost reference is lost somewhere
Quote from: AJP turbo on February 14, 2019, 02:37:13 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on February 14, 2019, 02:18:32 PM
So I did this a couple years ago, and if you are dead set on getting the MBC dialed in (weather dependent I might add) here is what I ended up doing...
I used a spring setup that was almost right at desired, and then used the MBC to dial it in the rest of the way. If I used a spring that was too heavy, I was unable to get it to crack open at the correct the time, and the MBC is only there to keep the wastge gate closed longer than the spring allows.
So.. used a spring that will allow the WG to crack earlier than you want, and then dial it in with the MBC... I was able to keep fuel rail pressure almost perfect, but run much higher boost than I would normally since I didn't deal with boost spikes...
This log is pretty gnarly... holding 16.5psi and almost perfect rail pressure even with the spikes... AJPTurbo tuned throughout this process..
Using a lighter spring but using an mbc to keep it held shut is basically the same as using a heavier spring...but then as the weather changes you may not have the same consistancy which is what you had if I remember.....and I've thought a lot about this since then but you always believed that the mod made things run hotter and turbos harder because the wgdc was higher but in reality the turbos were not running harder...the increased wgdc was because the the reference was lost through the mbc and the ecu needed to increase wgdc to get the proper boost reference to the turbo wastegates to compensate for what was lost
1 psi springs are enough to give a beneficial difference...boost spikes don't have to be completely motivated to see a benefit you just need to take the edge off....you can see 4 psi spikes on the 2-3 shift...taking the edge off helps a lot without needing to complicate things with an mbc
2000 psi dead nuts even is not really critical ...people have been running 1000 psi on terrible tunes for years with very few failures...we all know who they are and have see them...id rather keep it simple and less components and if a spring makes it better I'd rather do that than continuously messing with an mbc
If the fuel pressure only drops to 1700 for a second without an mbc id do that than to use an mbc and get the ecu upset because the boost reference is lost somewhere
Yup, you are 100% correct, the weather played hell with this MBC setup. I was looking for a particular load, and was having a hard time getting it where I wanted as the springs were either too light or too heavy.. I needed an inbetween but instead of ordering the correct springs.. I monkeyed around with a stupid MBC for awhile...
Maybe I am wrong... BUT the MBC was coming off the reference port on the wastegate mod.. not off the lines from the wastegates to the turbos... so the ECU shouldn't have even been aware of it? In any event.. my 2010 SHO ran freaking hot anyway.. not sure why that car got so hot... oh well.. its in the hands of another tinkerer at this point...
For the record, the only time the car wasn't happy was when fuel pressure dropped below 1000psi... otherwise you couldn't even tell pressure was dropping..
@sbs....but where were you getting the reference that went to the wastegates mod? I thought you were getting it from near the charge pipe at the boost solenoid
Electronic boost control is very sensitive to volume of airflow changes in the reference lines because of the nature of the solenoid...I remember the Subaru's had restrictor pills that were inside the vac lines and you could change a lot of you removed them
But yeah I suppose if you got your boost reference from the intake manifold then you are correct the ecu would not notice anything
But if you think things were running harder because of the mod and you were grabbing reference from the manifold(I don't remember)I would think it's because the gate was opening early which a heavier spring would remedy.....the gate should never open at or below boost target so there is just simply no way the mod would make it run harder
Ha, I'm not dead set on the MBC, I just happened to have one lying around and wanted to try it. It's clearly causing more trouble than helping. I already wrote that I would use the 14 PSI spring set. The MBC will remain on craigslist.
Regarding the boost reference issue,
Since the wastegate, when actuated, bleeds air through the valve guide for cooling, isn't that already affecting the boost reference significantly?
In my case, I had plugged the bleed port on the MBC and when bench testing the setup, the only notable bleed was from the valve guide (a tiny bit through the MBC cap as well) when it actuated.
Quote from: Brewineer on February 14, 2019, 03:25:18 PM
Ha, I'm not dead set on the MBC, I just happened to have one lying around and wanted to try it. It's clearly causing more trouble than helping. I already wrote that I would use the 14 PSI spring set. The MBC will remain on craigslist.
Regarding the boost reference issue,
Since the wastegate, when actuated, bleeds air through the valve guide for cooling, isn't that already affecting the boost reference significantly?
In my case, I had plugged the bleed port on the MBC and when bench testing the setup, the only notable bleed was from the valve guide (a tiny bit through the MBC cap as well) when it actuated.
I'm not sure what you mean by cooling?
If the diaphragm on the waste gate is not damaged then no air is lost from the reference
I read that the reason why wastegates leak around the valve stem in the valve guide was to cool the valve stem, and this was normal, even with high end wastegates.
I suspect it has more to do with the tolerances required to machine the valve guide & stem smooth & tight enough to make an air tight seal.
Do those of you with high end wastgates, e.g. Tial, not have any significant leaks around the valve guide?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNbMTLzZck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNbMTLzZck)
Update!
I had put in the 14 PSI springset and removed the MBC, however the springs are a bit lower rate than expected, allowing the gate to open at full boost instead of just the spikes on shift.
I went ahead and ordered a Tial MV-S to replace this eBay experiment in preparation for the 3bar Meth tune.
Quote from: Brewineer on March 25, 2019, 06:44:08 PM
Update!
I had put in the 14 PSI springset and removed the MBC, however the springs are a bit lower rate than expected, allowing the gate to open at full boost instead of just the spikes on shift.
I went ahead and ordered a Tial MV-S to replace this eBay experiment in preparation for the 3bar Meth tune.
Assuming the MV-S you ordered comes with a full spring pack...
I put together the attached spring chart that shows all the possible combinations you can achieve using the springs in the kit. There are a couple of ways to get the same "advertised" opening pressure with different spring combos. Depending on the pressure you're shooting for, it might be worth trying a different combo to fine tune (due to manufacturing tolerances on the springs, you might get a slightly higher or lower opening pressure compared to nominal).
Brad can hook you up, just don't drive him nuts (like I did) by swapping out all your springs and inundating him with data files. LOL
I thought I had posted this chart once before, but I couldn't find it on the site. I would double check to make sure the base spring colors/values still match what's in your kit as I put this together a couple of years ago.
Thanks for the spring rate chart, MiWiAu!
The Tial came in Monday and got it set up with a 13.05 PSI spring combo which seems to be working quite well at the moment, though I've barely driven it and haven't logged yet. I also changed the boost reference to the brake vacuum assist line.
Sadly, I did notice that there is a LOT of oil in the piping, so I might be looking at a new set of Turbos soon.