(This is in no way an attempt to bash LMS. Just genuine tuning questions)
So as the title says... has anyone ever intentionally or accidentally run a LMS meth tune without meth? I wonder about the gains from meth injection as far as LMS "canned" tune is concerned. I get the impression that sometimes some mods are oversold for the sake of a sale with no "real" gains to be had. For example in my opinion the CAI and 3bar map (for 14 lbs of boost). Its seems like the V11 93 tune is virtually the same tune with comparable gains regardless of mods with the exception of necessary adjustments made for the 3 bar map sensor and catless downpipes to eliminate CEL issues. Which is the only reason I believe they ask for a mod list. Anybody have any real numbers for canned tune gains with the meth tune?
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 20, 2018, 06:33:19 PM
(This is in no way an attempt to bash LMS. Just genuine tuning questions)
So as the title says... has anyone ever intentionally or accidentally run a LMS meth tune without meth? I wonder about the gains from meth injection as far as LMS "canned" tune is concerned. I get the impression that sometimes some mods are oversold for the sake of a sale with no "real" gains to be had. For example in my opinion the CAI and 3bar map (for 14 lbs of boost). Its seems like the V11 93 tune is virtually the same tune with comparable gains regardless of mods with the exception of necessary adjustments made for the 3 bar map sensor and catless downpipes to eliminate CEL issues. Which is the only reason I believe they ask for a mod list. Anybody have any real numbers for canned tune gains with the meth tune?
So I am data junkie... I tend to over datalog.... when I had my 2010 SHO I had all the bolt ons and meth... along with the LMS 4+X meth race tune...
In any event after seeing the difference between the meth and non-meth race tune I datalogged a full run of the meth tune with the meth turned off...
Livernois will NOT tune a car to be meth dependent. Last thing they need is a pump to stop working and the car blow up. Only car I suspect might be meth dependent from LMS is BPD1151.. and even then I'm not so sure... basically they remote tune the meth cars to handle meth pump failures.
Obviously that didn't blow it up. I suffered very minor fuel pressure dips at the boost spikes and obviously didn't get any cooling. No KR what so ever... I posted the logs on here somewhere...
I do think they push the sales but they are out to make money. Will the meth help even if they don't add any additional boost or spark? Sure, it will help stabilize the fuel pressure and keep the IATs low enough so they don't effect spark... which helps at the track.
Ultimately it's on you to know what you want to do with the car and to ask the right questions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Can't say I've ever tried that. I am supposed to get my SHO dyno tuned Friday and your question has me wanting to have a couple of pulls done to compare the two tunes now. Either way the meth tune feels stronger than the regular performance tune in my opinion.
Quote from: 5ohSHO on May 20, 2018, 08:15:48 PM
Can't say I've ever tried that. I am supposed to get my SHO dyno tuned Friday and your question has me wanting to have a couple of pulls done to compare the two tunes now. Either way the meth tune feels stronger than the regular performance tune in my opinion.
So there are more things you can do to squeeze more power out of these cars besides boost and spark...
One key difference between my LMS meth tune and non meth tune was how much they used throttle to control load. They opened up the meth tune a bit more which helps power production.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That goes along with what I was thinking. I know there are real gains to be had using meth. But I feel the only way to really reap all the benefits from it are on a dyno tune or with a more personal "data logging tuner" that makes adjustments. LMS just seems to have what they have and you get what you get. Don't get me wrong I am impressed with the V11 tune for what it is and worth every penny on its own. I just feel like any additional modding such a meth, nos etc... Is beyond the scope of being able to be optimized by canned tunes. To be honest I almost feel like they could just dial back a tune (lets say its V11) then say if you buy meth its an extra so so horsepower... and then send you a more agressive tune (lets say V11 Meth) that could still run safely without meth meanwhile they made another 1000 dollars off it. I know I'm coming across pretty negative but I guess thats how my mind works and why I learned to do work for myself. So having to trust someone else with my car performance is a hard pill to swallow especially at some of the prices (2k for HPFP 1k for meth kit)... Hope to hear AJPs thoughts on this as well.
Sure... you can always get more power on a dyno... or datalogging...
Brad had my meth tune cranked way the hell up there... and if the meth pump died or I had an issue in the middle of a run... the engine probably wouldn't have survived it. That was a personal risk I was willing to run.
But LMS doesn't tune that way. You won't have a dyno queen with LMS and they are not gonna tune you beyond what they deem safe for the motor and drive train....
Do I question some of there business practices.. sure... But I understand why they tune the way they do. There are plenty of SCT based tuners that have popped motors taking them beyond the limits...
Brad and Gearhead have not... but Unleashes, BCB, LET, and *** all have blown motors under their belt. Some more than others. LMS has only tanked one motor and it was a turbo issue from what I remember...
Just depends on what you want. Call LMS and talk to them. They will tell you that the meth is to offset the lack of fueling, not to gain a bunch of power. The HPFP is expensive but worth it in the long run. These cars are starved for fuel with an aggressive 93 octane tune.
Not sure what answer you are looking for... but LMS errors on the side of caution...
AND there are lots of other variables besides power output... LMS also adjust their tunes for what they see at the track in Milan and not just what the dyno says...
Edit*: Have you called and talked them? They will walk you through it. Their remote tunes are pretty dialed in for meth and the HPFP. I was told you MIGHT get 15-20 more HP from their dyno tunes... now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And if the V11 tune is not running well, ask them for V8 or V9 or V10. They will push back but if you are adamant on it, they will provide it. A lot of guys had really good results with V8.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good info. Thanks for the feedback. I am actually having no issues with the V11 HPFP tune other than a few minor hiccups rarely. I'm just getting the itch for more. Not sure how I wanna go about getting there yet. I used/tried all the other tunes during winter when I was having high rpm misfires. I did find the V8 to be the best but did notice less low end torque. So when they sent the HPFP higher command adjusted V11 tune I tried it and have been using that problems free ever since. Only issue I have now is the horrible fuel economy in the city... 12-13 mpg. Yikes.
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 20, 2018, 10:16:57 PM
Good info. Thanks for the feedback. I am actually having no issues with the V11 HPFP tune other than a few minor hiccups rarely. I'm just getting the itch for more. Not sure how I wanna go about getting there yet. I used/tried all the other tunes during winter when I was having high rpm misfires. I did find the V8 to be the best but did notice less low end torque. So when they sent the HPFP higher command adjusted V11 tune I tried it and have been using that problems free ever since. Only issue I have now is the horrible fuel economy in the city... 12-13 mpg. Yikes.
Are you running their Firestorm HPFP as well?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am not. Was one of the things I was considering. It was an adjusted command tune they felt was helping those having issues like I was having. High rpm misfires etc... They announced it on this board after they sent it to several of us that seemed to be having the issue. I am not sure if its the same tune used for the Firestorm HPFP. I would assume not but only they know.
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
Edit*: now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
I assume your referring to WHP/TQ with those numbers?
Quote from: Twintrbskies on May 20, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
Edit*: now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
I assume your referring to WHP/TQ with those numbers?
Yes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
Sure... you can always get more power on a dyno... or datalogging...
Brad had my meth tune cranked way the hell up there... and if the meth pump died or I had an issue in the middle of a run... the engine probably wouldn't have survived it. That was a personal risk I was willing to run.
But LMS doesn't tune that way. You won't have a dyno queen with LMS and they are not gonna tune you beyond what they deem safe for the motor and drive train....
Do I question some of there business practices.. sure... But I understand why they tune the way they do. There are plenty of SCT based tuners that have popped motors taking them beyond the limits...
Brad and Gearhead have not... but Unleashes, BCB, LET, and *** all have blown motors under their belt. Some more than others. LMS has only tanked one motor and it was a turbo issue from what I remember...
Just depends on what you want. Call LMS and talk to them. They will tell you that the meth is to offset the lack of fueling, not to gain a bunch of power. The HPFP is expensive but worth it in the long run. These cars are starved for fuel with an aggressive 93 octane tune.
Not sure what answer you are looking for... but LMS errors on the side of caution...
AND there are lots of other variables besides power output... LMS also adjust their tunes for what they see at the track in Milan and not just what the dyno says...
Edit*: Have you called and talked them? They will walk you through it. Their remote tunes are pretty dialed in for meth and the HPFP. I was told you MIGHT get 15-20 more HP from their dyno tunes... now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just a few notes I wanted to mention but Steal blue always makes good points. I don't know how to do the multi quote thing but from the top:
Mike, I don't know if I'd say your motor wouldn't have survived if your pump ever failed...The safety nets I had in the file were never tested. Your tune could pull 10 degrees in 1 second and 15 from the knock sensors alone. And if the air fuel ratios got lean I set the spark to pull even more...I've seen plenty of tunes run north of 225kpa with NO meth.
And I don't always necesarrily push hard with meth...If someone doesn't want to then I don't...I typically ask if someone wants a more meth dependant tune or not.
I generally hate magic number values....Unfortunately engines fail when stock. So when magic number values become accepted by people then when there are engine failures people can't help themselves but to want to try and find a reason and the problem is sometimes it's the tune and sometimes there was a weak component that became exposed.
There is much less quality control on an engine like this compared to an exotic car's engine. Not all the rods, pistons are put through real time radiography so less than perfect components are most likely put through. I suspect there is only a sampling of inspection done on an engine of this cost.
I've said it before but I actually think these fuel systems are pretty strong. They just hate to be ramped on and boost spikes kill the rail pressure...Control the spikes, control the pressure
I'm always surprised to see fuel pressure issues with LMS' 93 tunes..I just don't see the boost to cause problems but it seems they have an unwillingness to adjust throttle control. And it seems they can do it because you mention that you think they use less in a meth tune.
Polski's problem was so easily remedied I don't know why they didn't just use a stock throttle control, that's all I did for him and even ran more boost than his LMS tune.
But I'm sure I have and will blow a motor. Some people request more and more against my wishes. But if that's what they want then it's different.
We should make distinctions between tuners who are reckless with safeties, vs as Brad said, doing what their customer wants. Glad to see Brad & Matt continue to evolve the tuning on these cars. Just when you thought there was no more to give ...
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 20, 2018, 11:42:21 PM
Just a few notes I wanted to mention but Steal blue always makes good points. I don't know how to do the multi quote thing but from the top:
Mike, I don't know if I'd say your motor wouldn't have survived if your pump ever failed...The safety nets I had in the file were never tested. Your tune could pull 10 degrees in 1 second and 15 from the knock sensors alone. And if the air fuel ratios got lean I set the spark to pull even more...I've seen plenty of tunes run north of 225kpa with NO meth.
And I don't always necesarrily push hard with meth...If someone doesn't want to then I don't...I typically ask if someone wants a more meth dependant tune or not.
I generally hate magic number values....Unfortunately engines fail when stock. So when magic number values become accepted by people then when there are engine failures people can't help themselves but to want to try and find a reason and the problem is sometimes it's the tune and sometimes there was a weak component that became exposed.
There is much less quality control on an engine like this compared to an exotic car's engine. Not all the rods, pistons are put through real time radiography so less than perfect components are most likely put through. I suspect there is only a sampling of inspection done on an engine of this cost.
I've said it before but I actually think these fuel systems are pretty strong. They just hate to be ramped on and boost spikes kill the rail pressure...Control the spikes, control the pressure
I'm always surprised to see fuel pressure issues with LMS' 93 tunes..I just don't see the boost to cause problems but it seems they have an unwillingness to adjust throttle control. And it seems they can do it because you mention that you think they use less in a meth tune.
Polski's problem was so easily remedied I don't know why they didn't just use a stock throttle control, that's all I did for him and even ran more boost than his LMS tune.
But I'm sure I have and will blow a motor. Some people request more and more against my wishes. But if that's what they want then it's different.
Just to be clear, I was one of those guys that kept asking for more and more... and yes, we never did test the safety features of the tune which is probably a good thing...
Mike Bambic, LMS, and Gearhead all pretty much say and tune for around 450tq to the wheels.. and all pretty much stop when they get to 500hp to the wheels... LMS stops earlier like I said around 450 most of the time on a stock block.
Oh I have no doubt on why the V11 93 octane tune has fuel pressure issues... they are demanding close to 14psi (and holding it through shift) AND they are demanding super rich AFR's.. .72 lambda or 10:58:1 up top. The tune gets progressively richer as the rpms increase... from .78 lambda down to .72 lambda.. so I am not surprised about the fuel pressure. Most SCT tuners shoot for between .80 - .82 lambda... significantly less stress on the fuel system...
Yes, LMS doesn't make a whole lot of changes to their tunes to address customer complaints on a one to one basis.. shifting stuff sure.. but if you have a hesitation then no...
That would help explain my poor fuel economy. I appreciate the safe approach but at the same time it's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to mod any further (meth, hpfp etc) on this type of canned tune. I don't want to get so crazy as to risk any engine failure. But at the same time I feel there is still quite a bit of potential left in the car with the current V11 tune without the need for those additional expensive mods. Its seems those mods are mostly a requirement because of the type of rich tuning they like to run. Plus they make some $$$ from them as well. Thanks for the feedback. Good info.
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 21, 2018, 11:01:41 AM
That would help explain my poor fuel economy. I appreciate the safe approach but at the same time it's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to mod any further (meth, hpfp etc) on this type of canned tune. I don't want to get so crazy as to risk any engine failure. But at the same time I feel there is still quite a bit of potential left in the car with the current V11 tune without the need for those additional expensive mods. Its seems those mods are mostly a requirement because of the type of rich tuning they like to run. Plus they make some $$$ from them as well. Thanks for the feedback. Good info.
Shouldn't have poor fuel economy as they don't start enrichment until under full load. The tune tries to keep stoich 95% of the time...
I can tell you from personal experience, that the V11 tune pretty much maxes out what a 93 octane tune can push boost/spark wise... you can lean it out a bit and not run so rich but I am unsure how that will effect KR as I am sure part of the reason they are running rich is to help cool the cylinders to stave off knock... but AJPTurbo can provide much more information on that...
I have tunes from Brad from my 2010 SHO that max out the 93 octane tune running at .80 lambse and the load is very similar almost identical to the V11 tune from LMS. No doubt you individual car can be tweaked a bit more as each car is different.. but the gains are porbably not gonna be that much different...
now if you are looking to run E30 blends you might be able to squeeze a bit more more.. I will differ to Brad on this...
Yea... I see WOT pretty much every time I drive. 😂 But even when I try to take it easy... Its still at 13.- MAX mpg. Never ever seen anything higher since I've had this latest tune. And I tried. I heard some guys claim that they had improved fuel economy after running the tune but I just have a hard time believing that giving my personal results. When I fill up my dash says something like 240 to empty. I wonder about its accuracy but do end up filling up often enough to believe it.
Remember in the stock tune ford uses 14.069 as the stoiciometric fuel mix so .72 lambda is 10.13 and .78 is 10.97 which are both super rich
So .82 is 11.54
I actually run a bit richer than stock in low and midrange but leaner up top....but tuned runs more boost down low and midrange so maybe that's why the stock tune will run 1.0 until about 4500 which is crazy lean...I actually think ford did a lot of research on piston design to suppress knock
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 10:54:28 PM
Quote from: Twintrbskies on May 20, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
Edit*: now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
I assume your referring to WHP/TQ with those numbers?
Yes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What does a stock one generally put down at the wheels? What is generally used for a drivetrain loss % on these cars? What is 450/450 at the motor?
Quote from: SilvererSHO on May 21, 2018, 06:15:00 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 10:54:28 PM
Quote from: Twintrbskies on May 20, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSho on May 20, 2018, 09:56:28 PM
Edit*: now Nitrous and bigger turbos are different they still won't tune you past around 450/450 without a motor build as they have pretty solid data showing these motors/drive train in stock form won't hold up past that...
500 is the magic number with our motor/drive train in stock form.. after that it's just a matter of time before something goes to crap. And they are not the only ones who say that...
I assume your referring to WHP/TQ with those numbers?
Yes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What does a stock one generally put down at the wheels? What is generally used for a drivetrain loss % on these cars? What is 450/450 at the motor?
General agreement is 25% loss from the fly to the wheels...
So 450 is 600 at the engine... 600 * .75 = 450.
I think stock they are around 275ish to the wheels?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: SilvererSHO on May 21, 2018, 06:15:00 PMWhat does a stock one generally put down at the wheels? What is generally used for a drivetrain loss % on these cars?
Drivetrain loss has
ALWAYS been (consistently) 23% to 24%.
Stock dynos, from all model years from 2010 to current, have ranged in between 277 to 285awhp.
Ford quotes the (stock) power at the motor to be 365chp/bhp.
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 21, 2018, 11:01:41 AM
That would help explain my poor fuel economy. I appreciate the safe approach but at the same time it's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to mod any further (meth, hpfp etc) on this type of canned tune. I don't want to get so crazy as to risk any engine failure. But at the same time I feel there is still quite a bit of potential left in the car with the current V11 tune without the need for those additional expensive mods. Its seems those mods are mostly a requirement because of the type of rich tuning they like to run. Plus they make some $$$ from them as well. Thanks for the feedback. Good info.
Something must be off, i'm getting 22 MPG hwy at about 85 mph with the V11 tune. I was running out of fuel with the winter blends but the summer gas is better, no more stumbling at 6K+. The wife gets 26 but I cant drive that slow or keep my foot out of it :-)
Quote from: bpd1151 on May 21, 2018, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: SilvererSHO on May 21, 2018, 06:15:00 PMWhat does a stock one generally put down at the wheels? What is generally used for a drivetrain loss % on these cars?
Drivetrain loss has ALWAYS been (consistently) 23% to 24%.
Stock dynos, from all model years from 2010 to current, have ranged in between 277 to 285awhp.
Ford quotes the (stock) power at the motor to be 365chp/bhp.
This is what confuses me about drivetrain loss...
If I get on a dyno and take a baseline...
Drive off and do lets say 3 bar and a tune...
Drive back on and re-dyno, what changes that we lose more power spinning the drums?
I could understand a little more loss due to heat, but does it really stay at a fixed % or does that # actually go down as you add power?
:hmmm:
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 23, 2018, 12:09:15 AM
Quote from: bpd1151 on May 21, 2018, 09:40:01 PM
Quote from: SilvererSHO on May 21, 2018, 06:15:00 PMWhat does a stock one generally put down at the wheels? What is generally used for a drivetrain loss % on these cars?
Drivetrain loss has ALWAYS been (consistently) 23% to 24%.
Stock dynos, from all model years from 2010 to current, have ranged in between 277 to 285awhp.
Ford quotes the (stock) power at the motor to be 365chp/bhp.
This is what confuses me about drivetrain loss...
If I get on a dyno and take a baseline...
Drive off and do lets say 3 bar and a tune...
Drive back on and re-dyno, what changes that we lose more power spinning the drums?
I could understand a little more loss due to heat, but does it really stay at a fixed % or does that # actually go down as you add power?
:hmmm:
Only way to know that is to do a baseline wheel AND engine dyno... tune... repeat...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk