Is our 3.5 hpfp specific to ford or is it an off the shelf delphi unit? Like the Mazda speeds or vw/audi? Any commonality in displacement of the pumps?
I thought it was a rather common bosch...ask fomocosho he reads about our hpfp for fun and in his spare time lol
I was just seeing that there are rebuild services and kits to upgrade most other cars/trucks hpfp. So it got me thinking there might be some commonality with one of these kits
People aren't willing to put in R&D because of our limited market which I can't blame businesses for. The fuel system limits are kind of a let down for the platform and will probably be why I go a different direction in the future.
Quote from: tgambob on April 22, 2016, 03:36:44 PM
I was just seeing that there are rebuild services and kits to upgrade most other cars/trucks hpfp. So it got me thinking there might be some commonality with one of these kits
Actually for an oem system it allows for quite a bit of power increase over stock....people simply see that the system is maxxed out but thats at about at least 500 ftlbs of torque at the flywheel...not too shabby for stock fuel system...
Just a note... bpd is putting down 617 AWHP with factory fuel pumps.. He does have meth injection... That is the equivalent of almost 800 CHP in an all wheel drive train.
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 22, 2016, 03:17:55 PM
I thought it was a rather common bosch...ask fomocosho he reads about our hpfp for fun and in his spare time lol
That is correct on all accounts
Quote from: tgambob on April 22, 2016, 03:10:29 PM
Is our 3.5 hpfp specific to ford or is it an off the shelf delphi unit? Like the Mazda speeds or vw/audi? Any commonality in displacement of the pumps?
It's a bosch unit and its used in pretty much all the Ecoboost applications and plenty of others like VW and Audi.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4871.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4871.0.html)
So is there a possibility of some of those pump build kits having some commonality? Would you happen to know the pump model number and I will do some Google fu
HPD-5
The problem is it's not as simple as slapping on a bigger pump. (which exist)
These pumps are cam driven so we may be maxed by our cam profile and there also may be unknown tuning aspects involved.
Our current pump is capable of generating 3000 PSI but only creates 2150 from the factory.
I may have found somebody who can get us answers but I haven't heard back...yet.
According to Geoff@Full-Race they were developing a pump for the truck but after only about 20-30% increase in output it broke the camshaft....
The cost was going to be around $1500 from my understanding, not enough to do E85 so IMHO not worth it.
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
Quote from: SHOdded on April 23, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
It wasn't Full-Race it was Bosch or somebody, the pressure from the pump trying to squeeze the fuel broke the cam in half...
That's sad that Ford did not use stronger parts on these engines, knowing that people mod their other models like mustang and focus... they should have assumed same would be done on these turbo cars. They should have left consumers some room to play.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on April 23, 2016, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 23, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
It wasn't Full-Race it was Bosch or somebody, the pressure from the pump trying to squeeze the fuel broke the cam in half...
From http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/_pdf/cyclone-tech-v2.pdf (http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/_pdf/cyclone-tech-v2.pdf) ---
EcoBoost uses what appears to be a billet steel intake cam with the
special lobe. We've already seen one generic cam broken in two, so perhaps the EcoBoost billet cam was intended to
add some strength due to the mechanical fuel pump.
Quote from: CroR1 on April 23, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
That's sad that Ford did not use stronger parts on these engines, knowing that people mod their other models like mustang and focus... they should have assumed same would be done on these turbo cars. They should have left consumers some room to play.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on April 23, 2016, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 23, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
It wasn't Full-Race it was Bosch or somebody, the pressure from the pump trying to squeeze the fuel broke the cam in half...
You are kidding right cro?..so what kind of parts should ford have used?..with just a tune the sho can run mid 12's and have 450hp and over 500ftlbs of tq at the crank
No, I'm not kidding. Just saying, that camshaft should not snap just like that.
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 24, 2016, 12:55:19 AM
Quote from: CroR1 on April 23, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
That's sad that Ford did not use stronger parts on these engines, knowing that people mod their other models like mustang and focus... they should have assumed same would be done on these turbo cars. They should have left consumers some room to play.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on April 23, 2016, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 23, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
It wasn't Full-Race it was Bosch or somebody, the pressure from the pump trying to squeeze the fuel broke the cam in half...
You are kidding right cro?..so what kind of parts should ford have used?..with just a tune the sho can run mid 12's and have 450hp and over 500ftlbs of tq at the crank
Quote from: CroR1 on April 24, 2016, 08:40:05 AM
No, I'm not kidding. Just saying, that camshaft should not snap just like that.
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 24, 2016, 12:55:19 AM
Quote from: CroR1 on April 23, 2016, 10:43:09 PM
That's sad that Ford did not use stronger parts on these engines, knowing that people mod their other models like mustang and focus... they should have assumed same would be done on these turbo cars. They should have left consumers some room to play.
Quote from: EcoPowerParts on April 23, 2016, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 23, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
Do you know what specific design changes FullRace made for the truck pump? Off the top of my head, one would think gearing and materials change would be needed.
It wasn't Full-Race it was Bosch or somebody, the pressure from the pump trying to squeeze the fuel broke the cam in half...
You are kidding right cro?..so what kind of parts should ford have used?..with just a tune the sho can run mid 12's and have 450hp and over 500ftlbs of tq at the crank
Maybe it had nothing to do with the cam, maybe they altered the spring rate or length and caused the cam to snap. You can't compress fluids. Modifying these pumps isn't a simple proposition, if it was, we wouldn't be having these conversations.
Probably backed off for ROI reasons as much as anything else ...
So it seems like more displacement would be more reasonable compared to higher pressures for worry of the cam. He's a random idea what about the cam eccentric that operates the pump? Maybe change ramp of it or lift?
Quote from: tgambob on April 27, 2016, 12:51:32 PM
Maybe change ramp of it or lift?
I think that is what puts more pressure on the cam
We need volume not necessarily pressure increase. A physically larger pump or second pump are the options
Isn't that what they do on the speed 3? I thought they increased thier displacement along with the pressure increase. How many cc is our pump? Is it rotary or piston?
There are no significant upgrades for the fuel system in the speed, they use 5th and 6th port. Essentially the same thing we do with the aux E system or Meth. Any upgrades for the speed pumps or after market pumps are for mostly for reliability, some extra flow but nothing significant.
So what about dual pumps then? Mount one on a bracket on the front of the engine possibly? Like dual cp3s on a diesel. Sorry but common rail big trucks are my lively hood, and it just seems like our di has some overlap with them.
How would you run the pump?
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 03, 2016, 01:21:22 PM
How would you run the pump?
Here's a drunken idea....
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3241.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,3241.0.html)
You know that's not a horrible idea. I was thinking belt driving a small single or dual lobbed cam off of belt. Almost set it up in a v configuration and run 2 pumps off the same lobe or 3 or 4 Oh that could get interesting. Oil feed oil return. Get a factory cam and cut that beast up. Mount in pillow blocks and enclose in sheet metal. Just thinking out loud. Haha where the cam would be so short just the lobe and 2 journals with a snout and you mounted 4 pumps radially I bet u that cam could take a beating from increased life pressue
I always wondered how well a cp3, cp4 or other diesel injection pump would survive with gasoline. Obviously there is a huge difference in pressure. 3000psi versus almost 30000psi. But there has to be a way
That's what I'm wondering. I have emailed a couple guys about possibly doing something with our pumps. It's just hard to believe I can send a 20 year old craptastic injection pump off a random motor and they can tweak that up but no one can do a thing with these?
Quote from: panther427 on May 04, 2016, 07:41:20 PM
I always wondered how well a cp3, cp4 or other diesel injection pump would survive with gasoline. Obviously there is a huge difference in pressure. 3000psi versus almost 30000psi. But there has to be a way
The pump doesn't even run at 3K, it's capped at 2150 so there is some room if someone were to figure out the tuning.
I noticed the cap now that I'm watching fuel rail pressure through forscan. Idles at around 238 and max has been 2000 so far
Quote from: tgambob on May 05, 2016, 06:06:45 PM
I noticed the cap now that I'm watching fuel rail pressure through forscan. Idles at around 238 and max has been 2000 so far
Sounds like pump pressure, not rail pressure.
I see 2150 on the pump and 2300-2700 on the rail.
I will have to double check the pids then. I am monitoring frp-fuel rail pressure under forscan pcm module? I see no checkbox for pump pressure? Would you happen to have the formula for the rail and the pump?
Fomo what are you talking about pump pressure?
When i log fuel rear pressure and fuel rail pressure i think they are the same in live link..one is an oem pid and one is a different pid...can't remember what its called...but they mirror eachother in the log
I can command 3k and im sure it would deliver that in the too end but i never wanted to try that much....and i still have tested my last settings at higher boost yet...maybe this weekend
Sorry, there is a commanded pump pressure and rear (rail) pressure.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 05, 2016, 10:37:28 PM
Sorry, there is a commanded pump pressure and rear (rail) pressure.
Hhmm ok, that must be in torque? I don't see that in livelink
Yup.
Pid formula attached
Since we are throwing ideas around one that popped in my head was mirroring the valve cover and pump cam shaft for the other head essentially giving each bank of 3 cylinders its own pump. Probably easier just to get a new Raptor intake manifold with port injection. Also, has anyone looked into changing injectors? VW community has been doing for a while. Get an injector from another engine, usually larger displacement, or even a different brand in some cases with a higher flow rate. Bosch apparently makes a majority of the injectors but with different flow rates and spray patterns per the manufacturers request.
They make larger injectors already and have value files in the SCT database....However they are useless with out fuel pressure...It's not a simple problem...I don't even think the ECU has the controls built in it to accommodate addition fueling...You would have to be able to run the drivers....Most likely the extra fuel metering would have to be done by a standalone unit, such as the water meth controllers.
And if you mirrored the valve cover to add another di pump, I'm not even sure if both cams are the same..Something tells me the left and right banks have different cams
No doubt it's not an easy task. The cam would more than likely have to be a custom grind. It has an extra lobe ( 2nd cam from the left ) to operate the pump. Which also make me wonder if adding a pentagon shaped lobe would increase flow by having 5 pumps per revolution instead of 4. I think the pump lobe is square if I remember right.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b11/auditrance/image.jpeg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/auditrance/media/image.jpeg.html)
Pic for reference.
Thank you for the pids, I'm monitoring fuel pressure demanded and fuel pressure actual. I really wish I could work out a way to do a dual needle gauge lol. After doing my 3 bar today is that is one baby Lil pump, I really feel the a very compact base could be made to run 2 of those belt driven off the front. I have a couple old compressors at work that look like a great base, probably work for proof of concept anyways. Use the crank on it to make a new cam drive type lobe and put the pump on the plate where the air pump was. V twin base makes a v twin fuel pump.
I think it's more sophisticated than that...Good luck though....I just realized you live like 10 minutes from me..
The high pressure pump is an electro mechanical device with actuators and solenoids
That baby pump is capable of deliver fuel for 450hp and over 500ft/lbs tq at the crank
Tgambob, do you know how the pump works?
Not particularly that's why I'm trying to figure this out. I just figured its fixed displacement and used a bypass valve to control fuel pressure probably on a pulse width solenoid. Or is it one of the new variable displacement rotary vane ones? I realize I'm making it sound way simpler then what it is but I have learned over time when I start getting real technical I start losing people. I have access to a engineering department and several machine shops through work. Having people owe you favors is a good thing lol. I got pipe benders, industrial plasma cutters, 3d prototyping all the cool toys. If you are that close man come up and play I got a nice big 8 car garage with whatever you want we can use whenever. Just don't have a lift I do forestry, coal mining and oilfield equipment so a lift is useless. I got the mechanical and electrical part and it seems u have the programming part down to a science we could work some magic
Quote from: tgambob on May 07, 2016, 08:48:39 AM
Not particularly that's why I'm trying to figure this out. I just figured its fixed displacement and used a bypass valve to control fuel pressure probably on a pulse width solenoid. Or is it one of the new variable displacement rotary vane ones? I realize I'm making it sound way simpler then what it is but I have learned over time when I start getting real technical I start losing people. I have access to a engineering department and several machine shops through work. Having people owe you favors is a good thing lol. I got pipe benders, industrial plasma cutters, 3d prototyping all the cool toys. If you are that close man come up and play I got a nice big 8 car garage with whatever you want we can use whenever. Just don't have a lift I do forestry, coal mining and oilfield equipment so a lift is useless. I got the mechanical and electrical part and it seems u have the programming part down to a science we could work some magic
It is a feed forward system and the pump doesn't control pressure, the injectors do. The pump will do 3K, injectors will do 3700K, but I think the rails are only good to 3K.
OBD troubleshooting guide attached for tgambob.
Thank you for that. That's why I ask so many dumb questions. The fact that there seem to be so many variables and tables in the ecu now make much more sense since everything has to be attributed beforehand. So even if you could Supply more fuel would the system actually utilize it then? Since it's looking at the timing of the pump on its cam lobe that would be a small issue. I didn't think they would actually be looking at the pressure wave of the pump stroke and taking that into effect on the rail pressure
In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/ (http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/)
Quote from: Scott4957 on May 13, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/ (http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/)
Interesting that they only run about 10psi boost to get that power.
Quote from: BiGMaC on May 13, 2016, 08:40:50 PM
Quote from: Scott4957 on May 13, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
In this article they show that the 3.5 that they use in the ford GT is nearly identical to ours, but they do in fact use a Bosch pump on each bank like someone else suggested.
http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/ (http://www.hotrod.com/features/1505-exclusive-look-at-the-engine-that-could-power-fords-all-new-gt/)
Interesting that they only run about 10psi boost to get that power.
Well the redline is higher and they are using race gas and the turbos are much bigger.....my single turbo civic runs 400 whp at 10 psi on pump gas....its all about airflow....bigger turbos move much more
Generally speaking higher boost equals higher intake temps. Its all about cfm. The more cfm at the lowest boost and temp is what you want. Higher boost can also be do to. Higher restrictions in the intake tract. The race motor has optimized air intake. Its all matched between engine rpm. Turbo efficiency. Cam and desired power band.
I think the main take away is that they have already built an engine with two hpfp's. Is it more difficult to get the hard parts or the ability to control them?
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I'd say hard parts.
Those turbos are probably good for 1000hp so I'm not surprised at the output...All about airflow....Temps can be fixed by intercoolers and racegas
I thought the gt uses the 3.5 phase 2 which shared nothing going but the displacement? Also the list the 2015 sho as having dual variable cam but I thought we just had the intake and the trucks had both? On to other things I wonder if that head is a whole new casting or a machined production head for that second fuel pump. Or maybe they simply machined it to have 2 of the same heads? That sounds about the easiest way to do it one would think.
Ok after some more poking around I keep coming up with roush yates saying it's stock heads with no real machining, so could it be as easy as getting a second fuel pump pedestal and cam ( well valve covers but those look like sheet metal jobs) and have 2 pumps? All the pics seem to show it on the right place on the head for just using the pedestal on the other side.
Yes get on it...so then you need to tap into the low pressure fuel line and run that to the new high pressure pump. Then run the new high pressure fuel with lines and fittings that can handle 3000 psi to the existing line and into the rail
Quote from: AJP turbo on May 16, 2016, 06:28:29 PM
Yes get on it...so then you need to tap into the low pressure fuel line and run that to the new high pressure pump. Then run the new high pressure fuel with lines and fittings that can handle 3000 psi to the existing line and into the rail
Easy peasy
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Sadly that is the easy part. Pirteck hose guy is at my shop about every other day and can get me about any fitting you can imagine. 3000 isn't that much I won't even put a hose or fitting rated for under 5k on any piece of forestry equipment. If nothing else I will use the fittings off of one of the junk diesels, common rail fittings should hold up just fine. Nothing that a tig and a redneck mentality can't fix
Quote from: tgambob on May 16, 2016, 10:18:29 PM
Sadly that is the easy part. Pirteck hose guy is at my shop about every other day and can get me about any fitting you can imagine. 3000 isn't that much I won't even put a hose or fitting rated for under 5k on any piece of forestry equipment. If nothing else I will use the fittings off of one of the junk diesels, common rail fittings should hold up just fine. Nothing that a tig and a redneck mentality can't fix
I agree, that is the easy part. I was talking about getting the other parts. If we can source those someone will do it!
Well I just bought that hpfp mount off ebay for 30 bucks, comes with the cam follower. Now the question will be if this thing just bolts in place of cam caps or not. Can't really find a good exploded diagram or parts callout. I'm trying to find a random set of heads off a 3.5 but they seem to be non existent, I figured I could pick up a set off a blown motor but so far no luck. I wonder if just using 2 of the same intake cam will work
Isn't there an exta lobe on the cam just to run the HPFP? You'd have to see if you could mirror that cam to the other head.
AA5Z-6250-B CAMSHAFT
TAURUS SHO; PRODUCTION ENGINES ONLY; INTAKE; LEFT
$160.85 $110.99
AA5Z-6250-A CAMSHAFT
TAURUS SHO; PRODUCTION ENGINES ONLY; INTAKE; RIGHT
$80.47 $55.52
https://s3.amazonaws.com/rparts-illustrations/strapr1/c30cd25cf555cd65fa0e61e7a2411e11/52d81df44bf51c5221508771c3b3c2f0.png (https://s3.amazonaws.com/rparts-illustrations/strapr1/c30cd25cf555cd65fa0e61e7a2411e11/52d81df44bf51c5221508771c3b3c2f0.png)
This is a pic of the cams from an F150 (http://www.full-race.com/articles/inside-the-ecoboost-f-150.html), SHO should be similar. 2nd cam from top I believe.
(http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/f150/inside/cams4.jpg)
Discussion of the arrangement on a Focus ST:
http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-discussions/2334-high-pressure-fuel-pump-follower-question.html (http://www.focusst.org/forum/focus-st-discussions/2334-high-pressure-fuel-pump-follower-question.html)
(http://www.focusst.org/forum/attachments/focus-st-discussions/32191d1390834043-high-pressure-fuel-pump-follower-question-tmp_img_20140113_242341127616436787.jpg)
Other details on the 2.0EB for those interested:
http://www.full-race.com/articles/ford-fusion-ecoboost-history.html (http://www.full-race.com/articles/ford-fusion-ecoboost-history.html)
Arrangement on the 2.3 EB (4 lobe roller instead of flat tappet):
(http://www.focusst.org/forum/attachments/focus-st-discussions/32889d1391361959-high-pressure-fuel-pump-follower-question-2014_mon_t_015.jpg)
An older post, but a peek into the Focus ST DI design:
http://www.ecoboostforums.org/ford-focus-st-fuel-system-the-story-of-direct-injection-lessons-already-learned/ (http://www.ecoboostforums.org/ford-focus-st-fuel-system-the-story-of-direct-injection-lessons-already-learned/)
Upgraded cam follower in the VAG market:
http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Audi/2.0T+FSI/Audi+FSI+Performance+Cam+Follower (http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Audi/2.0T+FSI/Audi+FSI+Performance+Cam+Follower)
QuoteWhat makes our cam follower different?
The basic design of our cam follower is different over the OEM unit. We moved the holes from the face of the cam follower to the edge. This move in the holes will aid in lubrication to the face of the cam follower. We made our cam followers from a different material, this material has been used in lifter, cam shaft buckets and shims for the last 30 years. Why the OEM FSI cam follower is made of tool steel... no idea. We have added material to the surface contact to eliminate defection and our cam follower face to wall interface has a taper down design that shares the load through the transition.
The most important part of our cam follower is the hard chrome face. The hard chrome has been used for years in lifters, cam shaft buckets, and shims in many different applications. These other applications have seen loads more than double the load of a FSI fuel pump at 150 bar of fuel pressure. The technical details are all over the internet showing the benefits of hard chrome for this application, why the OEM cam follower doesn't use hard chrome... no idea.
During our testing we tried several different coatings, ranging from dry film lubricants to VPD applications. We had followers with DLC coatings and every coating that 3M makes. We even tried some armory coatings for weapons production. With all the testing we didn't find a single coating that could compare or perform at the level our hard chrome could. The coefficient friction of hard chrome is better dry than most of the other coatings tested wet. Hard chrome wet testing had more than two times the coefficient friction "lubricity" of any wet test from the others. This was a case of trying to make a better part, but the best was already tested, tried and trued for us... hard chrome was the solution.
More on the F150 (http://www.f150forum.com/f70/state-your-hpfp-woes-issues-here-215672/):
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/matmorkin/PhotoJun17100912PM_zps957aebc2.jpg)
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/matmorkin/PhotoJun17100814PM_zps2b25b8e2.jpg)
(http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/f150/inside/HPFP3.jpg)
Have heard it mentioned the F150 is a 4 sided cam lobe, SHO is 3, as in pic below
(http://www.motivemag.com/Content/uploads/1/eco3_center.jpg)
Odd that they have a 4 lobe cam if that's true. I was thinking possibly using a second cam of the variety that has the fuel pump cam and if the profile is that different then the non fp cam to have it ground and welded to match. Using the fp cam as the core would remove some odd work for that drive lobe. Anyone have a source for a set of heads? Our heads are only single cam variable and the f150 are both correct?
I was referring to the extra lobe on the intake cam that drives the fuel pump as being 4 sided, just to be clear.
That's the way I had taken it no worries. It's still odd that the truck would have 4 pump cycles per cam rotation compared to 3 for a supposed high performance car. So would it be better in the first place to start with f150 cam cores for that extra pump actuation? On a good note I get to go see the engineering depth and the weld spray guy due to a bad bearing eating a no longer made shafts, they love my wierd projects. It's nice when your company is part owned by a larger company that owns cool s*** lol
Nice tree stump lol.tell that bug company you need some work tables lol
We have work tables lol but they become a flat surface filled with half completed junk almost immediately. Even the junk chipper I'm working on becomes storage after an hour. This beast is old and one of like 74 made anyways so no parts available so everything is a custom deal but it's still the biggest self feeding tree chipper in the area. It's so much fun keeping this junk running
Quote from: SHOdded on May 17, 2016, 06:40:41 AM
More on the F150 (http://www.f150forum.com/f70/state-your-hpfp-woes-issues-here-215672/):
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/matmorkin/PhotoJun17100912PM_zps957aebc2.jpg)
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/matmorkin/PhotoJun17100814PM_zps2b25b8e2.jpg)
(http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/f150/inside/HPFP3.jpg)
Have heard it mentioned the F150 is a 4 sided cam lobe, SHO is 3, as in pic below
(http://www.motivemag.com/Content/uploads/1/eco3_center.jpg)
How much more fuel could you get from an extra cycle?
What are f150's running for GPM
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