>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
New turbos started their life doing 23 psi and down to 20 psi, now I can only get to around 14 psi down to 9psi.
Has anybody ran into the BoV leaking or anywhere else?
Let me know, I'm going to be chasing this today so I can get my POWA back.
We're at 22-25 degrees timing across the board and the car just MOVES but with the lost boost it just about evens out. Most torque we saw yesterday was 600lbs of TQ at 4K, we're getting closer and closer to big HP/TQ.
Ahh boosted cars are FUN! :)
BTW, I spent about 9 hours+ yesterday doing logs/tune revisions YAY!!!
I am sure you will be able to get it straight. Come on 23!
Oh boy..... *sigh* not good news :sad1:
But as with any experimental, and blazing trails with new mods, you'll have those proverbial ups and downs. :headhurt:
Here's to hoping you're able to resolve the current issues, and get back on track to where 'ya need to be, or more like, desire to be! :ok:
I don't know if this is any help but I know back in the late 70's Ford did have problems with the wastegate (BOV) not holding boost and opening prematurely and then leaking...hopefully you can get it straightened out.
Before the leak (Friday night):
New turbos installed - lots of boost (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcNNE-s-N6A#)
With the leak (this morning):
Boost Leak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLHmT2_RHOU#)
Ahhhh!!!! Thats not good. Is there a way to see the psi of each turbo? Or am I severely missing something?
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Quote from: adelsin on June 23, 2013, 01:54:19 PM
Ahhhh!!!! Thats not good. Is there a way to see the psi of each turbo? Or am I severely missing something?
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I'm sure it's either the BoV or hopefully not the intercooler. I'll be going through all the hoses today. :)
Wouldn't you hear the BOV if it suddenly released? Of course if it just leaks and doesn't actually blow off.......
Would putting it on the dyno help, as you could hear any leaks due to stationary position of the Flex?
Any simple way to test for intercooler leaks? Are there two separate inlets from each turbo, or is there a "Y" pipe before the intercooler inlet?
Good Luck!
Can you tell anything from the lambda readings for each bank?
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 23, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
Wouldn't you hear the BOV if it suddenly released? Of course if it just leaks and doesn't actually blow off.......
Would putting it on the dyno help, as you could hear any leaks due to stationary position of the Flex?
Any simple way to test for intercooler leaks? Are there two separate inlets from each turbo, or is there a "Y" pipe before the intercooler inlet?
Good Luck!
Can you tell anything from the lambda readings for each bank?
In order to test intercooler I'd have to remove front turbo.
I'm thinking the plastic pipe or one of the BoV is just getting pushed out, it's VERY HOT here, plastic doesn't like it much.
I'm headed down to the shop where we were working on it yesterday. I'll report back.
The easiest and quickest way to find the leak is to use a smoke machine. Just pull air cleaner, the machine usually has a large conical adapter you can stuff in tube behind air cleaner. And start pumping smoke all leaks will be revealed.
Found it!
:)
Looks like a fresh tear, could it be stock tubing isn't enough?
Quote from: crash712us on June 23, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
Looks like a fresh tear, could it be stock tubing isn't enough?
I'm heading down to the shop to make a new tube today, hopefully they have some tubing small enough to connect to the witty bitty baby turbos. :)
I think 110+ degrees out doesn't help, probably work where it's not so hot, I don't know what the Livernois big turbo guys have done to accommodate their higher boost.
Glad you found it Mike!
Quote from: DJE624 on June 23, 2013, 03:22:44 PM
Glad you found it Mike!
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on June 23, 2013, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: crash712us on June 23, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
Looks like a fresh tear, could it be stock tubing isn't enough?
I'm heading down to the shop to make a new tube today, hopefully they have some tubing small enough to connect to the witty bitty baby turbos. :)
I think 110+ degrees out doesn't help, probably work where it's not so hot, I don't know what the Livernois big turbo guys have done to accommodate their higher boost.
Darrell is the only other person I know thats blown a hose, but he said it was all dry rotted. So it could have been a part from his henessey CAI.
Duck Tape!!!!!
Seriously, could you use a pvc inner liner that would be the same size as the hard piping?
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 23, 2013, 05:04:26 PM
Seriously, could you use a pvc inner liner that would be the same size as the hard piping?
They make a silicone 2 to 1.5 reducer that will work there.
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Hey Mike, as Crash stated, I had a similar issue. Mine appeared to be a little more dry rottted than yours but still similar in appearance. I ended up replacing it with a silicone hose.
Quote from: darreli on June 23, 2013, 08:14:33 PM
Hey Mike, as Crash stated, I had a similar issue. Mine appeared to be a little more dry rottted than yours but still similar in appearance. I ended up replacing it with a silicone hose.
So your split in the same location?
Awesome, I'm picking up a new hose tomorrow morning and putting it back together. I'm looking forward to making some logs and virtual dynos! :) The last one I did compared directly with my actual dyno. I'll also schedule a dyno session this week, I plan to do the following:
1. Dyno with the same tune the stock turbos was on.
2. Dyno with the new 22 to 25 degree of timing tune
3. Nitrous on top of #2.
Wish me luck! :)
That ought to be interesting. Good Luck!
Yeah...pretty much split in the same place..GOOD LUCK!!
Man, you want to blow this thing up before you even have any fun with it!?!? At least let me swing by for a ride first! >:(
Found a replacement in town, headed to pick it up!
:)
Time to order some good quality silicon hoses and fab some aluminum/SS/or even just some painted steel tubing and ditch the plastic setup. I've seen a few 6.0L Ford diesels blow the factory plastic pipe.
I'm working on it, first step is to fix the existing blown hose then have upgraded pipe made. I'm seriously considering putting a new air to air intercooler up front or water to air. We'll see what I decide, need to take the bumper cover off.
Quote from: watt-maker on June 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
Time to order some good quality silicon hoses and fab some aluminum/SS/or even just some painted steel tubing and ditch the plastic setup. I've seen a few 6.0L Ford diesels blow the factory plastic pipe.
Would there be a heat sink issue with metal tubing? Would larger pipes from turbo to intercooler be of any benefit?
Also, 4DR, would a fluid intercooler using the A/C system be a possible choice or is this what is being referred to as a water to air intercooler? Believe A/C compressor turns off automatically during WOT.
Air/water has a fluid encased intercooler that cools the charge. The fluid is then pumped to and cooled by a heat exchanger up front of the radiator. What you're referring to with the ac is a Killer Chiller that uses the ac system to cool the fluid instead of just a radient heat exchanger.
The pipes question depends on underhood temps. If the temps underhood are higher than boost temps, then the aluminum pipes would absorb heat. If the boost temps are higher, then the pipes would radiate heat.
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 24, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: watt-maker on June 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
Time to order some good quality silicon hoses and fab some aluminum/SS/or even just some painted steel tubing and ditch the plastic setup. I've seen a few 6.0L Ford diesels blow the factory plastic pipe.
Would there be a heat sink issue with metal tubing? Would larger pipes from turbo to intercooler be of any benefit?
Not complete apples to apples, but on my diesel truck I noticed (as many others have) an increase in lag when increasing the charge pipes from the stock 3" to 3.5" like that of the Banks intercooler on my truck. Many will run the larger Banks intercooler with reducers to keep the charge pipe diameter.
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Quote from: 4DRHTRD on June 23, 2013, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: crash712us on June 23, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
Looks like a fresh tear, could it be stock tubing isn't enough?
I'm heading down to the shop to make a new tube today, hopefully they have some tubing small enough to connect to the witty bitty baby turbos. :)
I think 110+ degrees out doesn't help, probably work where it's not so hot, I don't know what the Livernois big turbo guys have done to accommodate their higher boost.
Quote from: darreli on June 23, 2013, 08:14:33 PM
Hey Mike, as Crash stated, I had a similar issue. Mine appeared to be a little more dry rottted than yours but still similar in appearance. I ended up replacing it with a silicone hose.
Either of you look to see if Samco offers a silicone hose/tube that fits in this area (where the tear/failure was)?
They make pretty quality stuff.
If not, what are the measurements & I'll ask.
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Quote from: FaSSt9602 on June 24, 2013, 03:30:34 PM
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 24, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: watt-maker on June 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
Time to order some good quality silicon hoses and fab some aluminum/SS/or even just some painted steel tubing and ditch the plastic setup. I've seen a few 6.0L Ford diesels blow the factory plastic pipe.
Would there be a heat sink issue with metal tubing? Would larger pipes from turbo to intercooler be of any benefit?
Not complete apples to apples, but on my diesel truck I noticed (as many others have) an increase in lag when increasing the charge pipes from the stock 3" to 3.5" like that of the Banks intercooler on my truck. Many will run the larger Banks intercooler with reducers to keep the charge pipe diameter.
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That makes sense. I have a Pontiac friend who was the lead contract metallurgical engineer on the EB Engine project a few years back. He told me recently that the reason for the small exhaust manifolds is to create higher velocity to the turbos, spinning them up quicker. Guess the same issue applies to the pressurized air.
For those who wonder why the 3.7 version isn't turbo'd, he said Ford tried that, and the stroke length caused failures as early as 100 mi.
Another interesting thing he told me is that he has again been given the lead position from his firm, to work with Ford on their revised 2015 EB engines. He has seen the design changes and called them revolutionary.... Plan is to have boost at idle, making the EB 3.5 even more responsive. Unfortunately couldn't detail any of this under his employment agreement. He was very excited!
Quote from: FaSSt9602 on June 24, 2013, 03:30:34 PM
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 24, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
Quote from: watt-maker on June 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
Time to order some good quality silicon hoses and fab some aluminum/SS/or even just some painted steel tubing and ditch the plastic setup. I've seen a few 6.0L Ford diesels blow the factory plastic pipe.
Would there be a heat sink issue with metal tubing? Would larger pipes from turbo to intercooler be of any benefit?
Not complete apples to apples, but on my diesel truck I noticed (as many others have) an increase in lag when increasing the charge pipes from the stock 3" to 3.5" like that of the Banks intercooler on my truck. Many will run the larger Banks intercooler with reducers to keep the charge pipe diameter.
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The good news for us is that we can probably shorten the intercooler path going to air/water setup, which means we can either run larger tubes and maintain factory charge volume, or keep the smaller tubes and increase throttle response from stock.
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 24, 2013, 04:21:43 PMFor those who wonder why the 3.7 version isn't turbo'd, he said Ford tried that, and the stroke length caused failures as early as 100 mi.
So the 3.7 is a bored AND stroked version of the 3.5? I thought the bore increase was the reason for the failures (walls too thin). Forgive the noob Q, but how does the stroke increase translate into a failure?
Quote from: SHOdded on June 24, 2013, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: EcoBrick Bob on June 24, 2013, 04:21:43 PMFor those who wonder why the 3.7 version isn't turbo'd, he said Ford tried that, and the stroke length caused failures as early as 100 mi.
So the 3.7 is a bored AND stroked version of the 3.5? I thought the bore increase was the reason for the failures (walls too thin). Forgive the noob Q, but how does the stroke increase translate into a failure?
Longer stroke puts the rods in a bad position for boost and they break, long rod motors and boost usually don't get along.
Could you drop in a stronger rotating assembly to compensate, or would the cylinder walls become the next weak point?
There is a fine line on the hot side that you have to walk. You need to have enough back pressure to get the chargers spooled, but keep it low enough not to send the heads sky high. The waste gates help bleed off that pressure at higher rpms, but at the same time, that is wasted energy.
The way to combat that is where I'm guessing your buddy was hinting at, which would be to hang some variable geometry turbos on there which will allow the computer to control the size of the exhaust housing a/r by adjusting a set of fins in the turbine housing. Here is how it looks on my truck. I went from a stock 58mm compressor to a 64.7mm wheel with almost zero change in lag... (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/25/u5aza3e9.jpg)
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How much did this VG turbo cost, and how durable is it?
He intimated that the head design combined with turbo intake will move turbos almost to the heads.
He also said he has seen the 2014 EB Pickup engine, but not sure if it will change much. Big deal appears to be in 2015 for our cars.
His G8 has a Livernois 418 and he is thinking about turbo'ing it. Our phone contact came about because of my 09' G8 rattling sound coming from the bell housing. Know him from forums and at G8 Natl. Conv.
Hopefully G8 issue will be low tranny fluid. Checking tomorrow (GM 6 speed autos are very hard to get accurate fluid fills). If that doesn't fix, the tranny and stall converter come out. Only noticeable in park, and when engine is off throttle.
Just in case someone else upgrades their turbo you will need a 1.75 to 1.5" silicone reducer like this:
http://www.amazon.com/HPS-1-5-Reducer-Coupler-Silicone/dp/B004O9UXO6 (http://www.amazon.com/HPS-1-5-Reducer-Coupler-Silicone/dp/B004O9UXO6)
You'll also need some new clamps due to the stock pipe has a plastic ring on the top part of the pipe and an attached clamp on the bottom.
I've attached some pictures of the before/after
I bought a smoke machine, didn't work at all but it was $29.99...
I am going to go pick up some parts and build a boost leak tester today. Just went into the garage and it's actually liveable in there right now.
Yay, fun times!
Sucks that it didnt work, makes me think you have a pipe thats split. Happy hunting
I just went and picked up:
1" of 1.75" hose for turbo inlets
2 1.5" PVC caps
Some misc compressor parts and fittings that I can put into one of the caps.
I need to find this leak so I can get some 11's and see some 500HP dyno's done. :)
I have a Mirror Machine to go with your Smoke Machine... For sale cheap...
I also have a receipt for a Flex plate replacement, that every Flex owner needs.
I am getting ready to head into the garage and pull off the stock intake tubing and try my contraption and see if I can hear a leak. YAY!
I pulled off some of the boost pipes and applied hair spray but I'm still down about 6psi.
Maybe you have tried this, but how about testing with soap suds like they do tires and gas lines etc.
How about smoke in a can you use to test smoke detectors?
It's only at about 16psi that I'm losing pressure, I need to pressurize the system to find the leak.
Boost Leak Testing 202: Hair Spray 1080HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq2o_6pPpBw#ws)
Are you sure it's an actual leak? I only say this because Dan had a heck of a time getting my car above 16 psi..the programming in the car just wouldn't let it happen..it took a long time to find and change the parameters
Good point Darrell, forgot about that. And I know if I am coming from a stock tune back to tune again initially my boost is much higher, can see 18-20psi on a half throttle romp down the street. But this is only good for about 3 romps, before the ECM reins boost back in.
Well I'm going to go through the process now for peace of mind and if no leaks I'm going to go in my backyard and scream for five minutes as this whole last 3 months will be my ex tuners fault...
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Ok can't got to the inlet of the back turbo without dropping the down pipe. I removed the rest of the hot side pipes and hair sprayed them. I'm going to see how much boost I have then if lower I will clear the ecu and try again. If I have higher boost then I'll be begging Shawn for a tune asap.
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Good luck... hope you're leak free.
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OK, 99.9% sure it's a boost leak.
I returned the car to stock and then retuned the car, I hit 21psi for a milisecond then nothing over 17psi.
I also went home and cleared the battery and I can no longer see over 17 psi in any gear.
Need to drop the car off and get the hot pipes fabricated and also get the new fuel pump assembly installed.
YAY more work! :)
Just in case I shot an email to livernois, I have a mycal, I asked them if they want to take a crack at tuning my car for the track. We'll see what they say.
You think the seals in the turbos might not be holding?
Quote from: SHOdded on August 11, 2013, 10:55:00 PM
You think the seals in the turbos might not be holding?
That wouldn't cause a boost leak. It would cause an oil leak, most likely on the exhaust side.
On a side note, is there a possibility the wastegate aren't holding shut? If the car is creating too much back pressure and the combination of the springs and boost port (which I assume these must be using) can't overcome the BP, it will blow the gates open and there goes your boost... O0
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Quote from: FaSSt9602 on August 11, 2013, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on August 11, 2013, 10:55:00 PM
You think the seals in the turbos might not be holding?
That wouldn't cause a boost leak. It would cause an oil leak, most likely on the exhaust side.
On a side note, is there a possibility the wastegate aren't holding shut? If the car is creating too much back pressure and the combination of the springs and boost port (which I assume these must be using) can't overcome the BP, it will blow the gates open and there goes your boost... O0
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No because I have videos of the car holding 23 psi with no problems
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I realize this is a bit old. But did anyone ever build a good pressure test kit for leak testing? I'm dying to pressure test my system. I make it a point to test my cars for boost leaks periodically. And I feel like it's not reall making the power that it could/should. In your case I would want to rule out a boost leak before doing anything else. It's a very easy way to rule out the more common issue in a turbo car. I've had a boost leak tester setup for every turbo car I've owned. The difference between leaks and no leaks is amazing. I'm surprised that I haven't seen anyone build a tester.
Did you find the leak?