I've been playing with the PID that we all believe is as follows (as confirmed by 4DR):
Manufacture ID: OEM_FORD
COM Level ID: CommLevel_ISO 14229
Comm Type ID: CAN_COMM
Category: Spark
Name: Knock Sensor
16 Char Name: Knock Sensor
Description: Knock Sensor Retard
Address: 0x3ec
Address size: 2
Units: Degrees
Data Type: Int16
Binary Point: 9
Multiplier: 1
The actual Torque PID is 2203EC as you need to include the mode "22" to request information off the CAN bus. If anyone is actually using this you do get some weird results just looking at the 'A' variable. It will jump to 255 and count down at times and other times it will just register a 1 or 2...
It occurred to me that this is probably a two's complement (a way to represent negative numbers in Binary) when I was looking at the forscan.org program and they show "knock" as ranging from negative to positive. I'm used to reading knock as an absolute from my GM days where if it was knocking it was just pulling timing. I'm starting to think that this PID is knock but it will showing timing added or pulled due to knock or the lack thereof.
I then did some research and Torque actually supports "signed" numbers!
So for the equation in torque I used the following:
Signed(A)
I won't go in to a big discussion on signed numbers in binary here unless someone really wants me to - you can Google it obviously too.
I did this to see what I would get and sure enough I get a positive and negative number that makes a lot more sense. Ranging from -5 to +3 so far for me. I tried a more complicated formula to see if it was using both the A and B variable but it doesn't seem to really use 'B' for anything useful. The formula I used for that test was (Signed(A*256)+B)/8 ended up giving me the same result as the much simpler formula above so it only appears to be using the 'A' variable.
Now the next thing I've noticed is that all of the other scanning programs seem to measure knock in quarter degrees. (0.25) which would imply there is a divide by 4 in the equation missing.
{Update - 8/8/2014 After further research here with others help I believe we have finally settled on the correct equation.}
By watching the knock PID in another Scan tool I am modifying the formula yet again. I can't completely figure out the exact value but I am comfortable that the "A" variable will give you knock in 1/2 degree increments. I suggest everyone updates their PID
So currently I am running with the following equation in Torque:
Signed(A)/2+(B/512)
It seems to be pretty close if not accurate. Negative numbers right now actually indicate it is adding timing and positive numbers indicate the presence of some knock. Yes this seems somewhat counterintuitive but that is apparently how Ford designed it. (If it bugs you just put a '-' sign in front of the equation but then remember you put it there anytime you have a discussion on the forum) The noted ranges so far seem to go from -5 to +7...consensus on what is safe seems to vary and will probably depend on how modded you are ( A couple of degree running at 18 psi with aftermarket turbos probably wouldn't be great while it may not be a big deal on a relatively "normal" tune running lower boost/timing etc...)
Please include a screen shot of your setup, this would help many, after that I'll try and figure out how to get them out of torque and add them to a csv file so people can follow an easy process to add it.
As far as + and - it's due to the fact that the car will add timing if it doesn't see knock, it's kind of weird but it works that way.
Positive value = timing being pulled
Negative value = timing being ADDED
:)
Will do. Need to grab one from my car later...
Got the Screenshot! I did some logging with Forscan and this is pretty close for the Positive numbers...the negative numbers in Torque seem to have additional resolution that I haven't figured out in the equation but this should give everyone a good indication of what is going on at WOT. You shouldn't have more than a degree or maybe two of knock at WOT...anything higher would make me nervous although this car does seem to react very quickly to knock and seems to be good at saving itself...,
Please note the formula you should be using is - Signed(A)/2
4 degrees and less is considered acceptable 5+ is starting to get worrisome. :)
Good to know. I hated knock on my GTP so I'm a bit conservative. :)
So I need to go in:
torque settings/Manage extra PIDs-Sensors/Add custom sensor
And then copy the info in your screenshot and voila?
Quote from: BigPelo on November 14, 2013, 04:14:17 PM
So I need to go in:
torque settings/Manage extra PIDs-Sensors/Add custom sensor
And then copy the info in your screenshot and voila?
Yes, should work fine then. I mostly see "0" on mine. Sometimes I'll get an odd result like 63.8 or something like that.
You shouldn't get the 63.8 anymore if you are using the " signed" parameter above
Quote from: ecoboostsho on November 14, 2013, 05:58:07 PM
You shouldn't get the 63.8 anymore if you are using the " signed" parameter above
I actually JUST changed to the 'signed' to the equation. It'll be nice not seeing that anymore! Thank you.
Is this something "SHO" specific? Or can. Set this up on the 14 XSport?
Thx
Unless they changed the PID or something else on the CANBUS I see no reason why this wouldn't work for you...
When I went to the settings in torque
It warned me..." Saying be sure your info is accurate because adding something in here could turn on off features in vehicle???
Wow...
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Quote from: bigmoneycloser on February 03, 2014, 10:31:06 AM
When I went to the settings in torque
It warned me..." Saying be sure your info is accurate because adding something in here could turn on off features in vehicle???
Wow...
Wow is right! That's plain scary! :hypo: Could it corrupt a tune... or safety programming? :hmmm:
That's a pretty standard disclaimer. You won't be corrupting a tune with it. You could accidentally update something (say unlocking your doors etc...) that wasn't intended. I suppose it may shut the car off but this is only if you are typing random things in to this field - and as the app states you shouldn't do that. There is relatively low risk in my opinion since mostly what you are doing is reading data not updating it...
I updated this thread. I would recommend you change your knock formula in Torque to the following:
{Modified 8/8/2014 based on current knowledge of PID
Signed(A)/2+(B/512)
this will result in knock values measured in 1/4 degree increments.
I updated the pic formula as posted to 2 instead of 4 in the signed area.
Now I'm seeing +7 on the max.... Before the update I never went above + 3.5
Is this normal? It's pulling way too much timing if that's correct
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/13/4ute9adu.jpg)
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost
more to come.....
I'm barely seeing any positive knock running the new formula. Always less than a degree...makes sense it doubled. You could double check with forscan if you have a laptop handy...
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I only see the knock in 5th or 6th gear while Rpm is pretty low.
Unfortunately I do not have a laptop. Only desktop , ipad , iPhone and android tablet
If it isn't at full throttle it shouldn't be nearly as concerning. Cylinder pressures would be much lower. You could have Torrie pull some timing in that rpm range if you are really worried about it. I get some part throttle knock as well...
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I tried this today, I got 0. The entire time while driving. I will confirm with Forscan. I know that I had a bit of a variance in the past when logging with Forscan.
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I have never gotten a reading with this PID. Even after altering the formula. I took advantage of the screen shot and matched item by item with mine. IDK?
I did some logging with Forscan, and the knock sensor was doing it's thing. Ranging from +2 to -4, under WOT I had zero. It only pulled timing when under moderate load before downshifting. I will see if I can mess with the PID and equation a bit to get it working.
This works for me in Torque. Weird. Do you guys get a response at all? Is there a tiny flashing green dot on the gauge showing that it is reading data? How fast is it blinking? Maybe your logging so many pids the refresh rate is very low. I only have 6 or less gauges on my screen at one time.
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Yes I have a flashing green dot on all gauges including the knock retard.
Can you post a screen shot of the gauge config?
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Yup, the green light is on mine also. Here is the screen shot.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/15/8e6ypa3u.jpg)
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Not sure if you wanted my screen shot but in case here it is.
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p499/larry114/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/F6FE6576-2BAD-4F48-8034-8B0F8AE69A6D_zpsqgliylj0.jpg) (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/larry114/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/F6FE6576-2BAD-4F48-8034-8B0F8AE69A6D_zpsqgliylj0.jpg.html)
My other gauges seem to be refreshing quickly enough.... No visible lags...
Mine looks just like that and works great...not sure what is going on.
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I got mine to work, I looked at your screenshot on the first page and and entered everything exactly the same. For some reason there was a space between signed and the (. Weird?
Ahhh...the extra space. That would do it.
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Weird X 2 because I had the extra space between the SIGNED and the ( also. Can't wait to try it out now. Thanks for letting me look over your shoulders and copy your test answers!
Still saw +6.5-7 today driving through the baby mountains/ hills of west virgina.
Quote from: glock-coma on June 14, 2014, 09:46:06 PM
Still saw +6.5-7 today driving through the baby mountains/ hills of west virgina.
It does seem high, On mine it never goes over 2. And that happens vary rarely, I would want to confirm with another scan tool for piece of mind. When I did a data log with Forscan over a 30 min drive it only pulled timing 3 or 4 times and to a max of 2. (Spirited driving) Adding timing, that is a different story. That happens all the time.
Or if someone with more experience can chime in on the severity of the +7.
+7 at full throttle would be bad. Still seems like a lot for part throttle as well. I get the same results as Shoboat.
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Time for some datalogging with the SCT, glock? BTW, were you able to find 93 throughout your trip?
It's definitely not at full throttle.
Very little throttle in 6th gear on a hill.
I'm in the market for a laptop so hopefully data logging will be soon.
No problems finding 93 yet.
Why not data log with Torque?
To update I'm seeing a max of 4 or 5 both plus and minus and not at substantial load.
Quote from: Larrylu on July 17, 2014, 07:14:24 AM
To update I'm seeing a max of 4 or 5 both plus and minus and not at substantial load.
Larry, are you seeing much difference in this measurement between the 4X and 4+ that you were running before?
Very good question Bruce. I don't think I had this PID operational before the 4X. Under acceleration though I seem reliably to get timing added in. I'm not watching at the right time to see the positive reading but I'm theorizing maybe when it's lugging some like low throttle without downshift. At any rate it's not exceeding the amount the car can handle so I imagine it's not a problem....IDK.
I see a max of 3-4 on my 4x but only under lugging throttle conditions. It adds timing at light throttle and only see a blip at wot. I got pretty similar results with the 4+ tune as well under moderate loads, although I usually never had any knock under WOT with the 4+. Its a bit more aggressive but still seems fine to me.
Corn will cure the knock. I never see knock anymore. The most I've recorded was .5.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Corn will cure the knock. I never see knock anymore. The most I've recorded was .5.
I'm pretty sure running larger concentrations of ethanol in a pre 2013 that has been tuned is a bad idea...our fuel pump isn't as good as yours! ;) yes...I'm jealous.
On my 2011 I can't get a +knock reading with trying to produce it with erratic pedal play at all speeds. Only time I get timing pulled is under a full wot from a dead dig, it jumps from -.5 to +.5 then....if gradually entering wot it adds timing the whole time...
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 17, 2014, 09:32:38 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Corn will cure the knock. I never see knock anymore. The most I've recorded was .5.
I'm pretty sure running larger concentrations of ethanol in a pre 2013 that has been tuned is a bad idea...our fuel pump isn't as good as yours! ;) yes...I'm jealous.
Oh that's right.... it's like rubbing corn in an open wound. Lol sorry about that. Maybe someday we will all have equal corn rights.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 09:45:44 AM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 17, 2014, 09:32:38 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 09:30:39 AM
Corn will cure the knock. I never see knock anymore. The most I've recorded was .5.
I'm pretty sure running larger concentrations of ethanol in a pre 2013 that has been tuned is a bad idea...our fuel pump isn't as good as yours! ;) yes...I'm jealous.
Oh that's right.... it's like rubbing corn in an open wound. Lol sorry about that. Maybe someday we will all have equal corn rights.
I've always wondered if we could get away with a mild mix in the summer...just too chicken to try and too lazy to mix it I guess. I will be interested to see if your fuel pressure maintains itself in cold weather with E30. The cold air requires more fuel and that is when people were running out. LMS even had a cold weather tune until it wad all sorted out. That said this car seems pretty good at saving itself!
There is no problem with frp in cold weather with 2013+....unless running like a raped ape is a problem.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:07:58 AM
There is no problem with frp in cold weather with 2013+....unless running like a raped ape is a problem.
Running E30? Totally cool and even more jealous.
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Nice!
I have a 2010 and have been thinking about a mild cocktail - maybe just 2-3 gallons of E85 along with 93. The 93 is already 10% ethanol. Do you think there is too much risk in that? That should equal around 95 octane...maybe not enough to make a difference....
By the way, my Aeroforce gauge is showing +/- 2 or less. 99% of the time it is at zero.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:10:51 AM
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Did I inspire you to go past 30%? Hah
Most of our data is coming from the 2013+ right now for E85 mixes. I know Mike ran E85 in his Flex, hopefully he will chime in on running E85 mixes in the 2010-12 EBs. Also, Bruce, you are running 4X. Hopefully it won't be thrown off by the extra octane?
I have read other threads about running e85 in the 2010 - 2012 models and have decided not to bother with it. The 93 I run is already 10% ethanol and I have no detonation issues so I will just leave things as they are - unless getting 93 becomes a problem in my area.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:10:51 AM
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Did I inspire you to go past 30%? Hah
No, I've been there once before but became uncomfortable with the trims. I got over that and want to see what happens. Putting in the stock filter and cranking the corn yielded 22lb-ft higher peak than previously recorded in both Torque and Dash Command. 11 of that was just the change back to a new OEM filter.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:10:51 AM
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Did I inspire you to go past 30%? Hah
No, I've been there once before but became uncomfortable with the trims. I got over that and want to see what happens. Putting in the stock filter and cranking the corn yielded 22lb-ft higher peak than previously recorded in both Torque and Dash Command. 11 of that was just the change back to a new OEM filter.
You should get it tuned for 30%.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 18, 2014, 11:35:18 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:10:51 AM
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Did I inspire you to go past 30%? Hah
No, I've been there once before but became uncomfortable with the trims. I got over that and want to see what happens. Putting in the stock filter and cranking the corn yielded 22lb-ft higher peak than previously recorded in both Torque and Dash Command. 11 of that was just the change back to a new OEM filter.
You should get it tuned for 30%.
Waiting for my cutout to come back then its on like Donkey Kong....
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 12:03:55 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 18, 2014, 11:35:18 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 17, 2014, 11:00:04 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 17, 2014, 10:10:51 AM
Yup. I'm at e34 right now and all is well.
Did I inspire you to go past 30%? Hah
No, I've been there once before but became uncomfortable with the trims. I got over that and want to see what happens. Putting in the stock filter and cranking the corn yielded 22lb-ft higher peak than previously recorded in both Torque and Dash Command. 11 of that was just the change back to a new OEM filter.
You should get it tuned for 30%.
Waiting for my cutout to come back then its on like Donkey Kong....
Let me know what your fuel rail pressure looks like.
I think I'm going to increase up to 38% and see if torrie can bump up my timing.
2480 peak on the rail....
And I saw over 2700 at 34%
Lol I'm at 2100...
I know it's two different platforms, but I'm running E40 and meth on my 13 F150...
Damn how well does that f 150 run? Have you tracked it
Quote from: scap99 on July 18, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
I know it's two different platforms, but I'm running E40 and meth on my 13 F150...
Where are your LTFT's sitting?
What is your FRP @ WOT?
I am now at E-41
Quote from: panther427 on July 18, 2014, 09:24:29 PM
Damn how well does that f 150 run? Have you tracked it
Did this last weekend in about 2000' DA, and a full tank of gas.
Truck is an fx4 with 3.55's and factory 20" wheels.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 09:25:58 PM
Quote from: scap99 on July 18, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
I know it's two different platforms, but I'm running E40 and meth on my 13 F150...
Where are your LTFT's sitting?
What is your FRP @ WOT?
Just going from memory LT was 14-16%
Erick @ LET said FRP still looked good...
I wonder why the trims are so different between the platforms..
Yeah, I'm seeing no signs of a drained rail.
Wait till you get it tuned. Then you will be upset.
Why would I be upset?
The fuel system has already far exceeded any expectations I had.
At 40 % we're nearing the threshold where i believe more corn will have no value.
IMHO, law of diminishing returns will come into play.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 10:24:50 PM
The fuel system has already far exceeded any expectations I had.
At 40 % we're nearing the threshold where i believe more corn will have no value.
IMHO, law of diminishing returns will come into play.
Maybe not...I'm seeing 19° of advance at WOT, I think Mike saw quite a bit more on E85.
IIRC at 50-50 he was at 26 degrees...
I don't think I can make it to 50 without popping a CEL for LTFT's over 25%
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 10:32:00 PM
IIRC at 50-50 he was at 26 degrees...
I don't think I can make it to 50 without popping a CEL for LTFT's over 25%
Sorry, if you've covered this...
Are you running a tune?
Nope, I'm still stock.
I'd prefer that my ECM doesn't rat me out to the dealership about my E-85 shenanigans...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 10:33:46 PM
Nope, I'm still stock.
Wow, I admire your being able to hold out.
My truck was tuned the first week....lol
Playing with E-85 has kept me pretty entertained.
As soon as the cutout comes back it's on!
I'm also considering upgrading the turbos at the same time, overlapping labor and all that.
I'm also considered that doing all that plus turbos may cause a rod to overlap into my block, so IDK.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 10:43:48 PM
Playing with E-85 has kept me pretty entertained.
As soon as the cutout comes back it's on!
I'm also considering upgrading the turbos at the same time, overlapping labor and all that.
I'm also considered that doing all that plus turbos may cause a rod to overlap into my block, so IDK.
I sure hope you don't poke any holes in your block. :(
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 18, 2014, 10:43:48 PM
Playing with E-85 has kept me pretty entertained.
As soon as the cutout comes back it's on!
I'm also considering upgrading the turbos at the same time, overlapping labor and all that.
I'm also considered that doing all that plus turbos may cause a rod to overlap into my block, so IDK.
I'd leave the turbos alone for now... after all you haven't even experienced a tune. ;D
I am tuning scap99's truck...we are getting some great power out of it for such a heavy platform....we will continue to push forward with the E content and would love to see some of you guys in our shop for some tuning... ;)
He will run 12's with no problem next time out at the track and I am excited to see what the transverse platform is capable of... ;)
Quote from: Leading Edge Tuning on July 18, 2014, 11:30:24 PM
I am tuning scap99's truck...we are getting some great power out of it for such a heavy platform....we will continue to push forward with the E content and would love to see some of you guys in our shop for some tuning... ;)
He will run 12's with no problem next time out at the track and I am excited to see what the transverse platform is capable of... ;)
I know I've shocked a few people with it, both at the track and on the highway. :)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/19/umesyba2.jpg)
Found some knock.
How I'm getting it at 35% ish I don't know.... only thing I can think of is the fuel just won't mix right.
..... I really should just get a meth kit.
Quote from: Leading Edge Tuning on July 18, 2014, 11:30:24 PM
I am tuning scap99's truck...we are getting some great power out of it for such a heavy platform....we will continue to push forward with the E content and would love to see some of you guys in our shop for some tuning... ;)
He will run 12's with no problem next time out at the track and I am excited to see what the transverse platform is capable of... ;)
You'll find out what the transverse is all about the first week of August as soon as I get back in town. :D
Looking forward to checking y'all out.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 19, 2014, 01:39:49 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/19/umesyba2.jpg)
Found some knock.
How I'm getting it at 35% ish I don't know.... only thing I can think of is the fuel just won't mix right.
2% is nothing. I know you want 0, mine does that either heat soaked or when it's really stinking hot out. I'm running 94.
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Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 19, 2014, 01:39:49 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/19/umesyba2.jpg)
Found some knock.
How I'm getting it at 35% ish I don't know.... only thing I can think of is the fuel just won't mix right.
Its not the fuel, mine does it too. I think its happening under heavy throttle, coupled with an abrupt lift. I need to redo my data logging parameters and try to pin it down. Its not dangerous at all for us but could be for the guys running straight gas. Consider only A6's motor came apart under that same circumstance. It also explains why some of us have noticed throttle response going away under spirited heavy off-on conditions.....the car is seeing knock and goes into self preservation mode.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 19, 2014, 10:15:14 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 19, 2014, 01:39:49 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/19/umesyba2.jpg)
Found some knock.
How I'm getting it at 35% ish I don't know.... only thing I can think of is the fuel just won't mix right.
Its not the fuel, mine does it too. I think its happening under heavy throttle, coupled with an abrupt lift. I need to redo my data logging parameters and try to pin it down. Its not dangerous at all for us but could be for the guys running straight gas. Consider only A6's motor came apart under that same circumstance. It also explains why some of us have noticed throttle response going away under spirited heavy off-on conditions.....the car is seeing knock and goes into self preservation mode.
Well that's good to know. I might have to ease off the throttle after a wot run.
One thing I've been thinking about is this, if I have a meth kit and if at some point I floor it to pass and the meth doesn't spray because of a mechanical failure will the car be able to pull enough timing to protect it? to Or will I be picking parts up off the road.... that's the one thing that keeps me away from meth right now.
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 19, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on July 19, 2014, 10:15:14 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on July 19, 2014, 01:39:49 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/19/umesyba2.jpg)
Found some knock.
How I'm getting it at 35% ish I don't know.... only thing I can think of is the fuel just won't mix right.
Its not the fuel, mine does it too. I think its happening under heavy throttle, coupled with an abrupt lift. I need to redo my data logging parameters and try to pin it down. Its not dangerous at all for us but could be for the guys running straight gas. Consider only A6's motor came apart under that same circumstance. It also explains why some of us have noticed throttle response going away under spirited heavy off-on conditions.....the car is seeing knock and goes into self preservation mode.
Well that's good to know. I might have to ease off the throttle after a wot run.
One thing I've been thinking about is this, if I have a meth kit and if at some point I floor it to pass and the meth doesn't spray because of a mechanical failure will the car be able to pull enough timing to protect it? to Or will I be picking parts up off the road.... that's the one thing that keeps me away from meth right now.
It depends on how the tune is setup. I set mine up to take advantage of meth, but not to be dependent on the meth. This would be a question for your tuner...I don't ever want to have to worry about a customer blowing their motor because their meth kit failed... ;)
That's the reason I plan to run water meth not straight meth. A tune will not be depending on the extra fuel as much as just the intake cooling effect.
Quote from: panther427 on July 19, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
That's the reason I plan to run water meth not straight meth. A tune will not be depending on the extra fuel as much as just the intake cooling effect.
Again, it depends on the way your tune is setup...I recommend 100% meth, but I don't setup the tune to depend on it, ONLY to take advantage of it... ;)
I was able to verify this today, it is knocking after wot abrupt lifts. Turned corner, downshift to 1st let off and saw 1.5 on the gauge.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 09:23:37 AM
I was able to verify this today, it is knocking after wot abrupt lifts. Turned corner, downshift to 1st let off and saw 1.5 on the gauge.
Curious, you are not tuned correct? Although 1.5 really isn't anything the car can't handle. Need more data, was this just after a heat soak? What were your other readings (IATs coolant temp).
At least it's protecting it's self. I'll have to take a look at mine and see if I have the same issue.
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 05, 2014, 09:28:28 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 09:23:37 AM
I was able to verify this today, it is knocking after wot abrupt lifts. Turned corner, downshift to 1st let off and saw 1.5 on the gauge.
Curious, you are not tuned correct? Although 1.5 really isn't anything the car can't handle. Need more data, was this just after a heat soak? What were your other readings (IATs coolant temp).
At least it's protecting it's self. I'll have to take a look at mine and see if I have the same issue.
I am untuned conditions were low 70's no heat soak. Consider that A6's car blew up on a lift condition. His car was tuned. Also consider that I am at 100 octane and seeing knock, so what is going on with the cars with much less knock resistant 93.
It is starting to make sense why the throttle disappears during spirited on off driving.
Maybe one or more of our esteemed tuning vendors will chime in here.
As sensitive as the knock sensors are on these motors, it is a fairly common occurrence to see knock when you let off the throttle. There seems to be noise created from the TB closing.
As far as power going away in repeated runs, the tuning has safe guards based on IAT, coolant temp, cat temp, valve temp, flange temp, EGO temp...well, you get the idea... ;)
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 10:37:49 AM
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
Interesting. Mine adds.
If I lightly accelerate in a normal driving situation on e-way it instantly starts adding timing right up to -4....it's weird that the smooth yet above normal throttle pressure to wot at a roll gets a +1.5 knock reading...maybe due to not getting the downshift?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 10:46:47 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 10:37:49 AM
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
Interesting. Mine adds.
Same here mine adds timing, I was just out for a drive and nada. Mine is not pulling timing at all. I was trying to duplicate this effect and I couldn't. Interesting after the mod to the Airaid and the installation if the RX I almost never see any timing pulled they were done at the same time. Once in a blue moon I get .5 and that's it. I will keep an eye on it.
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 10:37:49 AM
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
That behavior is similar to mine. Easing in the first part of the throttle seems to add timing. A little deeper into the throttle pulls it and then at WOT it is at zero. I haven't seen more than a +2 under any conditions, though. This occurs in higher gear/lower RPM scenarios.
Quote from: Brucelinc on August 05, 2014, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 10:37:49 AM
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
That behavior is similar to mine. Easing in the first part of the throttle seems to add timing. A little deeper into the throttle pulls it and then at WOT it is at zero. I haven't seen more than a +2 under any conditions, though.
I had a +2 first time out testing with 3 bar but have only seen +1.5 since...cars learning I think...hope...has to right
We have some consistency, that's a good sign. Wonder with it being tuned that those mid range throttle pressure ventures to wot missing the downshift is the cause?
Try downshifting at 20 ish to 1st and let off before the shift to 2nd.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 11:31:55 AM
Try downshifting at 20 ish to 1st and let off before the shift to 2nd.
Used the paddles once. Just not the same without the clutch action. For longevity with the Trans I'm trying to stay away from them. Cars still pretty fresh to me (only 4 months in), as I gain more trust in it the paddles may come into play!
Just stand on it or 25 or below, it will downshift.
I was out testing this Knock PID and at one time got a +2, and even a -1, but most of the time it was at 0.
Quote from: Brucelinc on August 05, 2014, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 10:37:49 AM
Only time I get timing pulled is when easing into full throttle from a roll(still quick throttle , just not punched to floor)...any foot to the floor action gets 0's....
That behavior is similar to mine. Easing in the first part of the throttle seems to add timing. A little deeper into the throttle pulls it and then at WOT it is at zero. I haven't seen more than a +2 under any conditions, though. This occurs in higher gear/lower RPM scenarios.
Same as mine...I really don't know that I am going to be worried about 1.5 degrees of knock with as fast as these motors react at my mod level (basically tune, 3 bar, thermo, mufflers, plugs). We'd have a whole lot of blown up SHO's running around if that was the case. If you push the power up to near the breaking point for the rods and THEN get a little bit of knock (maybe even when lifting) it could be an issue of course...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 11:44:31 AM
Just stand on it or 25 or below, it will downshift.
Oh yeah, 25 - 30 might be one of the best launch points I feel, besides stopped. Once I put the pedal down I am sure to always get through the first shift after downshift to not cause a sloppy shift on the trans.
The most I've seen on gradual throttle roll on is -5.0. any full throttle is 0- +1.0. I do see knock of almost 3-4 when I let off on a wot run quickly.
Sounds like more data logging is needed. Does anyone with this wot/lift knock have access to FORScan? It would be interesting to see exactly what is happening. I will log mine but I have yet to see this behaviour.
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 05, 2014, 01:09:58 PM
Sounds like more data logging is needed. Does anyone with this wot/lift knock have access to FORScan? It would be interesting to see exactly what is happening. I will log mine but I have yet to see this behaviour.
I have never really experienced this but I never do WOT and then an abrupt lift. I suppose if I was WOT and a deer jumped out in front of me, I would do that but otherwise it just doesn't seem like a very common situation. Maybe I am missing something....
Quote from: Brucelinc on August 05, 2014, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 05, 2014, 01:09:58 PM
Sounds like more data logging is needed. Does anyone with this wot/lift knock have access to FORScan? It would be interesting to see exactly what is happening. I will log mine but I have yet to see this behaviour.
I have never really experienced this but I never do WOT and then an abrupt lift. I suppose if I was WOT and a deer jumped out in front of me, I would do that but otherwise it just doesn't seem like a very common situation. Maybe I am missing something....
I do wot blasts to my cruise speed often.
I also tend to let off abruptly when LE is spotted.
I also tend to let off abruptly when LE is spotted.
LOL...yes, I would do that, too. I got a ticket recently when I was in Des Moines visiting family and my wife got one on her way to work. Not good for insurance premiums!
Pretty much any time I'm in a 25 mph zone that goes to 35.....I punch it .
I can't resist the 2-1 downshift at 25, its like SHO heroin.
I wonder if these are all the reasons for my rears wearing faster than my fronts?
Shoe stores must give you a heck of a time, FoMoCoSHO :D
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Pretty much any time I'm in a 25 mph zone that goes to 35.....I punch it .
I can't resist the 2-1 downshift at 25, its like SHO heroin.
I wonder if these are all the reasons for my rears wearing faster than my fronts?
Love it...i like watching the rear power gauge for this also!!!
Quote from: SHOdded on August 05, 2014, 04:20:10 PM
Shoe stores must give you a heck of a time, FoMoCoSHO :D
That's funny :P
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Pretty much any time I'm in a 25 mph zone that goes to 35.....I punch it .
I can't resist the 2-1 downshift at 25, its like SHO heroin.
I wonder if these are all the reasons for my rears wearing faster than my fronts?
Love it...i like watching the rear power gauge for this also!!!
Wish I had an awd gauge.....
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 05:54:45 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Pretty much any time I'm in a 25 mph zone that goes to 35.....I punch it .
I can't resist the 2-1 downshift at 25, its like SHO heroin.
I wonder if these are all the reasons for my rears wearing faster than my fronts?
Love it...i like watching the rear power gauge for this also!!!
Wish I had an awd gauge.....
Have you received your 3 bar and Stat yet?
Quote from: wasinger3000 on August 05, 2014, 06:32:38 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 05:54:45 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 05, 2014, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 05, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
Pretty much any time I'm in a 25 mph zone that goes to 35.....I punch it .
I can't resist the 2-1 downshift at 25, its like SHO heroin.
I wonder if these are all the reasons for my rears wearing faster than my fronts?
Love it...i like watching the rear power gauge for this also!!!
Wish I had an awd gauge.....
Have you received your 3 bar and Stat yet?
Nope.
Quote from: Leading Edge Tuning on August 05, 2014, 10:33:08 AM
As sensitive as the knock sensors are on these motors, it is a fairly common occurrence to see knock when you let off the throttle. There seems to be noise created from the TB closing.
As far as power going away in repeated runs, the tuning has safe guards based on IAT, coolant temp, cat temp, valve temp, flange temp, EGO temp...well, you get the idea... ;)
I am not disputing this at all but just want to learn. Why would there be spark knock in a closed throttle situation with no load on the engine? Are you saying that the sensor "hears" the TB close and "thinks" that noise is spark knock???
I just cannot get my head around having spark knock and needing to pull timing when the throttle is closed and there is no engine load. I understand that these engines do cut off the fuel in a no throttle coast condition but I don't think that happens immediately after an abrupt lift. Does that have anything to do with it? I would love an explanation for this.
X2 on the above! Any insight greatly appreciated :)
What equation is everyone using on torque? I switched to the most current, and immediately started seeing +7 as my max. Before the switch I was seeing +4 as the high.
Signed(A)/2 ....make sure your device doesn't auto space after signed
This is getting interesting. Now I'm not the only one getting a +7. I am using the most current equation. I got the +7 running 4X (3BAR). Running the 2BAR 4+ tune I got a max of +2. I flashed to stock last night but don't have any knock retard numbers yet on the stock tune.
Quote from: Larrylu on August 06, 2014, 01:35:15 PM
This is getting interesting. Now I'm not the only one getting a +7. I am using the most current equation. I got the +7 running 4X (3BAR). Running the 2BAR 4+ tune I got a max of +2. I flashed to stock last night but don't have any knock retard numbers yet on the stock tune.
Glock-coma has an Unleashed tune so his tuning parameters are probably somewhat different than ours. However, it is interesting about the change based on the equation.
Still, the difference in knock retard between your 4+ and 4X tunes when you used the same equation is a bit concerning.
Boost levels when you see that KR? LME requires a 160 TStat with the 4X for a reason (increased heat with increased boost), as explained by JT a short while ago. I am guessing the same "issue" with Torrie's tune. Also are you both VTA for the BOV?
Quote from: SHOdded on August 06, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
Boost levels when you see that KR? LME requires a 160 TStat with the 4X for a reason (increased heat with increased boost), as explained by JT a short while ago. I am guessing the same "issue" with Torrie's tune. Also are you both VTA for the BOV?
Very good question about the boost levels they see when the KR is +7. Interestly, when I am WOT and highest boost, I never get KR. The only time I get the +2 is at a low RPM lugging condition and relatively low boost level. I have tried it when the car is not fully warmed up (150* or so) and fully warmed up (180*) and the KR on mine is the same either way.
Note that I am NOT disputing JT at all - but I am just thinking there is more to the high KR readings than just boost and temp.
I have not done the VTA so far and I'm running a 170 T-stat. Coolant temps usually hang in the low 180's regardless of the ambient. As Bruce points out, it is important to note that all else staying the same when I went to the old 4+ 2BAR I went from 7 to 2 positive knock retard.
Quote from: SHOdded on August 06, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
Boost levels when you see that KR? LME requires a 160 TStat with the 4X for a reason (increased heat with increased boost), as explained by JT a short while ago. I am guessing the same "issue" with Torrie's tune. Also are you both VTA for the BOV?
I'm still running the stock tstat and I am VTA.
I've seen the +7 when the temp was 175* don' t really see it below that.
It only happens lugging in 6th gear. If I downshift it immediately goes to a lower+ number or -
I have never generated high boost levels. My max highest ever was 14.1. Mostly I'm in the 13's. (With 4X) I do not get high KR when I'm at WOT. That's usually 0 reading. Don't know yet if it's at lift off from WOT, or at lugging.
Well I am going to the track for sure on Friday. I'll be logging my runs. I'll be keeping an eye on the KR and report my findings.
Some data logs! Weird results. The only lift/knock event I have seen was with little throttle applied. There seems no reason for the 2 knock events that I had during my 30 min drive. I did stop for gas and heat soak could be the factor for that one. But the other?? There is also a WOT run to 60 and I had 0 KR even on the lift.
Spending a little more time with this I am not sure what I am seeing is true knock. I have found this. Interesting read.
http://www.zzperformance.com/blog/about-knock-retard-kr/
I believe that in these cases this not truly knock (detonation). But this is speculation at this point.
Maybe we should be taking another look at the PID/equation for this gauge. A lot of the new PID's were amazingly pieced together with parts from multiple sources, with great collaboration and clever reverse engineering but every once in a while a gauge came with weird reading and often that showed a problem. Just saying what if? On the other hand it does make sense that for me any way, the most aggressive tune gave me a 7 positive, 4 negative, my next most aggressive gave me a 2 positive, 4 negative, and now my stock file so far is reading 0 positive, 4 negative.
Quote from: Larrylu on August 07, 2014, 05:36:28 PM
Maybe we should be taking another look at the PID/equation for this gauge. A lot of the new PID's were amazingly pieced together with parts from multiple sources, with great collaboration and clever reverse engineering but every once in a while a gauge came with weird reading and often that showed a problem. Just saying what if? On the other hand it does make sense that for me any way, the most aggressive tune gave me a 7 positive, 4 negative, my next most aggressive gave me a 2 positive, 4 negative, and now my stock file so far is reading 0 positive, 4 negative.
I'm totally open to the fact it isn't accurate entirely. The formula for this PID is something of a guess (even though it is a very simple formula). I will do some more logging specifically on this parameter and see if I can get a Hex/binary reading that makes sense. If I assume FORSCAN is correct I can see what values of knock correspond to what values in Hex and derive the formula. I technically did this the last time and ended up with the A/2 formula but I will admit that Forscan can interpret knock in quarter degrees and you can't get there with A/2 so something is off. It also returns at least two bytes (A and B) but the B value is always changing unless it actually sees knock. Almost like it is a counter or something to tell you that the sensor is still working and then when it sees knock it read the "actual" value. I don't know how else to describe what I'm seeing in the response from the car...I definitely would like to know for sure so let me keep at it and gather a few more sample points to at least see if this PID holds. My challenge will be that I almost never see greater than 2 degree of knock...once I think I got a 3.5...can't hurt to double or even triple check as this is a pretty important variable. Be patient with me though...My wedding anniversary was yesterday, my oldest turns 18 today and my 4 year old turns 5 on Sunday.
I'm not sure that there is anything wrong with the equation. On my recent data log with FORScan it seemed to react the same way as torque.
Eventful calendar, ecoboostsho! Belated congrats on your wedding anniversary, happy birthday to your oldest (voting age!), and upcoming happy birthday to the 5yr-old-to-be!
^^ what he said lol
Thanks guys...!
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Happy all that stuff...busy time of year huh...
quite a few similar readings from people with similar tunes also, thinking the equation is solid, but I really have no idea...lol...
Thx for your efforts again
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 07, 2014, 05:06:30 PM
Spending a little more time with this I am not sure what I am seeing is true knock. I have found this. Interesting read.
http://www.zzperformance.com/blog/about-knock-retard-kr/ (http://www.zzperformance.com/blog/about-knock-retard-kr/)
I believe that in these cases this not truly knock (detonation). But this is speculation at this point.
I know some of discussed KR on abrupt throttle lift. I do not believe that is detonation at all. Unless someone can provide a logical reason for spark knock under a closed-throttle and no load condition, I maintain the sensor is just picking up "noise" that is not spark knock and not harmful.
Agreed. I have been logging for a few days now. I believe that KR we could be seeing is at least in my case directly related to IAT2. If it's above 60C I will get a bit of KR. In the area of about 2 or less. Last night after sitting at a long traffic light I did a 1/2 pedal run to the limit and had KR of 2 through part of 1st gear. IAT2 was at 67C.
Okay I think I've figured it out. I did quite a bit of logging on the way to work with FORSCAN. First I agree with ShoBoat...I typically only see maybe a blip or 2 of knock at part throttle but it does seem temperature dependent...with the outside temps in the 70s this morning and running at highway speeds I honestly had a hard time generating any knock. If I let the motor heat soak I can see 2 or 3 degrees.
As for the equation it wasn't really far off at least compared to FORSCAN (sorry for anyone hoping it was if you've got a +7 reading). After numerous logs and serial captures the PID does use both the A and B parameters in the equation. The B is the 1/4 degree part...just took some thinking.
I still need to go out and verify this but I believe this is close...The sign may be off though but either way it would only be off up to a 1/2 degree...
Signed(A)/2+(B/512)
This would result in readings from -3.75 to +7.25 degrees of timing added or subtracted accordingly. The bad news in this is if you are getting 7 degree of knock I do believe the "reading" is accurate...it doesn't mean it's actual knock though...just that the knock sensor is picking up something it thinks is knock. However if you go back to stock and the knock goes away I believe it was sensing real knock as opposed to the throttle body shutting etc...just my thoughts.
Sweet, thanks. I'll give the new equation a try
I will also try the new equation and post results. I'll try going back to stock and looking at kr numbers. Thx for all your help and effort on this.
Just entered new equation. About to go give it a test. Hats off to you sir!
Finding that the equation is/was accurate is not a disappointment for me even though I was one of the ones to register a 7 positive. It just makes me extremely grateful to have been lucky enough to have a KR gauge in service that did give me a heads up. I was much closer to the edge than I care to think about. I could have been blissfully ignorant. I have not updated to the new equation yet as my car is at the dealers for some tranny TSB issues but having flashed back to stock in advance of this dealer visit I can say that I now have generated a max of positive 1 reading so far on the stock tune. Thank again ecoboostsho for the life saving gauge and once again for vetting the equation when the serious readings surfaced! Very appreciative indeed!
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 08, 2014, 11:29:51 AM
Okay I think I've figured it out. I did quite a bit of logging on the way to work with FORSCAN. First I agree with ShoBoat...I typically only see maybe a blip or 2 of knock at part throttle but it does seem temperature dependent...with the outside temps in the 70s this morning and running at highway speeds I honestly had a hard time generating any knock. If I let the motor heat soak I can see 2 or 3 degrees.
As for the equation it wasn't really far off at least compared to FORSCAN (sorry for anyone hoping it was if you've got a +7 reading). After numerous logs and serial captures the PID does use both the A and B parameters in the equation. The B is the 1/4 degree part...just took some thinking.
I still need to go out and verify this but I believe this is close...The sign may be off though but either way it would only be off up to a 1/2 degree...
Signed(A/2)+(B/512)
This would result in readings from -3.75 to +7.25 degrees of timing added or subtracted accordingly. The bad news in this is if you are getting 7 degree of knock I do believe the "reading" is accurate...it doesn't mean it's actual knock though...just that the knock sensor is picking up something it thinks is knock. However if you go back to stock and the knock goes away I believe it was sensing real knock as opposed to the throttle body shutting etc...just my thoughts.
I just tried this equation, I got a reading of 127 KR. Lol
Say what?? ;) I tried it all the way home and got pretty normal results...are you sure that you don't have a space between the signed and (A)??
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I made a slight change to the equation (Singed(A)/2)+(B/512) this seemed to work.
Quick trip to store netted results in same ranges but in tenths....saw -.2,-.5,-.8,-1.2,-1.5,-1.7,-1.8,-2.2. Might be more but those I noticed for sure.
That did the trick, on mine. Now reading in .2 increments. -4 to +1.2 on my drive.
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 08, 2014, 01:50:23 PM
I made a slight change to the equation (Singed(A)/2)+(B/512) this seemed to work.
My bad...you are correct. I had the same thing in Torque...just typo'd the equation here (well actually I went from memory and you can see how well that worked out.)
I have seen it add timing on light throttle in quarter degree increments...-.25, -.5,-.75...all the way to -4.0. I have seen 2 or 3 degrees of positive knock when heat soaked as indicated before. Interestingly it actually reads in finer increments than .25...occasionally I see .18 or .36 etc...seems to respond faster but that's probably just because the B variable is giving us finer resolution. I will keep testing but it seems promising.
Oddly, since I flashed my car last night my gauge now shows -5.
This has me scratching my head.
Also just to clarify Torque will round this off for you depending on how many decimal places you have. I did notice the gauge which shows max and mins is fixed to one decimal place so it will appear in tenths. That is more than sufficient for our purposes though.
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Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 02:34:58 PM
Oddly, since I flashed my car last night my gauge now shows -5.
This has me scratching my head.
Flashed to stock? Very well could be...no one knows how much timing the car actually adds under light throttle?
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 08, 2014, 02:37:27 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 02:34:58 PM
Oddly, since I flashed my car last night my gauge now shows -5.
This has me scratching my head.
Flashed to stock? Very well could be...no one knows how much timing the car actually adds under light throttle?
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Or do you mean its -5 all the time??
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 08, 2014, 02:37:27 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 02:34:58 PM
Oddly, since I flashed my car last night my gauge now shows -5.
This has me scratching my head.
Flashed to stock? Very well could be...no one knows how much timing the car actually adds under light throttl
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Damn, quote fail....
Stock to tuned..
Never showed less than -4 before
Got it. Well there's nothing in n the equation or PID that would indicate -5 isn't normal so you've got me. It is probably something that can be changed via the tune...
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I did also notice a +3 after a wot pedal lift this time to fall in line with the others.
Someone else had reported a -5 somewhere here also. Can't recall who.
Thanks for the quick help and great work testing this out everyone! Especially finding my mistakes...Doh. This seems to more accurately represent what I see in FORSCAN so I'm feeling pretty good about it.
I should point out that this IS all based on the assumption that FORSCAN is correct. I believe that it is but wanted to make sure I pointed that out.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 02:40:14 PM
Never showed less than -4 before
-4 is the max I've seen so far.
Same here -4.0 is all I've seen as well...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 02:34:58 PM
Oddly, since I flashed my car last night my gauge now shows -5.
This has me scratching my head.
Am I remembering correctly that you just got your tuning device then?
That is correct
I thought the gauge was only set up for -4 also, that's why I was highly confused.
Being that its a signed binary number it could read a max of around -127...that wouldn't be good though. :)
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Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 03:29:26 PM
That is correct
Welcome to the tuning world on the SHO!!! What's your thoughts? Or I can continue to hold the edge of my seat for, maybe a thread? Maybe a touch of that "perma-grin" lol
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 08, 2014, 03:33:54 PM
Being that its a signed binary number it could read a max of around -127...that wouldn't be good though. :)
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Makes me think...explosion!!!
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 08, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 08, 2014, 03:33:54 PM
Being that its a signed binary number it could read a max of around -127...that wouldn't be good though. :)
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Makes me think...explosion!!!
Damn, the engine would run backwards lol.
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 08, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 08, 2014, 03:29:26 PM
That is correct
Welcome to the tuning world on the SHO!!! What's your thoughts? Or I can continue to hold the edge of my seat for, maybe a thread? Maybe a touch of that "perma-grin" lol
A thread is forthcoming. I'm hoping to gather more data at the track tomorrow. Stay tuned.
Just a note from last night, the new equation seems spot on. The last 2 runs of the night I used Torque to keep an eye on KR. And it was spot on with FORSCan.
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 09, 2014, 01:56:16 PM
Just a note from last night, the new equation seems spot on. The last 2 runs of the night I used Torque to keep an eye on KR. And it was spot on with FORSCan.
Glad to hear it. Seems to be behaving as expected on my end as well...
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
It's opposite for me on the truck and with my SCT tunes.
Negative knock = timing added
Positive knock = timing pulled
It's the same for me tuned or untuned.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
I'll have a look but I really can see how that is? It's possible that the tune (stock or not) be subtracting timing during the condition and adding it back in for -KR simultaneously. It just appears what you have described. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
I watched this today and a "Negative KR" reading results in timing being added...which is what I expected. At least on mine...
As I'm sure you know the car takes in to account a lot of variables to determine what timing it is going to run (MAP, RPM, IAT, Octane rating, Knock, etc...) and we are just watching one variable in that equation so I suppose something else could be subtracting timing on your car?
I'm gonna try and grab a video to post up.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.
But what is called for, and is what you are seeing being affected by the KR reading
As I get negative knock reading timing adv drops.
I've been watching my timing vs knock for several days now. I have screen shots of torque. I took one after every drive I made. So I have a record of everything as my fuel mixes change. I see -5.0 nock in 5th or 6th going up steep hills.
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 12, 2014, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.
This is normal behavior and how timing works in general. You will definitely get a ton of timing advance under light throttle and less under WOT (although 10 seems low...I would expect you'd see between 17-20 degrees at WOT - how much boost are you running?)
If you are going to measure timing advance due to knock you need to hold the throttle steady and be on a steady "grade" etc...the goal is not have any engine load variations so the timing number settles to something "desired"...then watch the knock gauge - when it starts to do its -0.25, -0.5, -1,... thing watch your timing advance gauge (again without moving the throttle!) and you should see timing increase. It does on my car every time. If the throttle position changes or the grade changes etc...what you are seeing is being caused by other variables.
Today I noticed a spike of 15.2 for boost. While watching the timing adv wasn't keeping track of boost (will do next time). I do notice it jump up and down a bit when at even throttle. Lowest I saw timing adv go was 12 at wot with 0 "kr"
I just don't think you guys are going to see it in action during anything other than a light throttle run. At WOT (or any boost #) there are a number of things that can affect timing so you'd have no way to know what is contributing to the number changing. Another thing to note is that the ECU will reduce timing at the shifts to save the tranny and preserve shift quality (aka Torque Management). There are a LOT of variables that go in to determining timing (mean best torque tables, octane tables, etc...) and multiple adders and subtracters (IAT, Coolant Temp, Knock, ...).
I would at least try my experiment at light throttle where the car starts showing incremental negative KR and watch what the timing is doing during that. That should at least minimize the number of variables.
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 12, 2014, 02:44:14 PM
Today I noticed a spike of 15.2 for boost. While watching the timing adv wasn't keeping track of boost (will do next time). I do notice it jump up and down a bit when at even throttle. Lowest I saw timing adv go was 12 at wot with 0 "kr"
Was that 12 during a shift?
Could have been...first time really paying attention to it...will add this variable to the checklist for next run
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 12, 2014, 02:31:20 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 12, 2014, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2014, 10:40:40 PM
So has anybody set up timing advance next to the knock gauge?
Cause I can clearly see timing being removed when the knock gauge moves into the negative and added back as it moves back to zero.
Have we had it backwards the whole time or am I missing something?
Yes, I am also seeing my timing adv. go from a 45-50 at no throttle to mid 30's - mid 20 ' s under light throttle and a drop to around 10 at wot.
This is normal behavior and how timing works in general. You will definitely get a ton of timing advance under light throttle and less under WOT (although 10 seems low...I would expect you'd see between 17-20 degrees at WOT - how much boost are you running?)
If you are going to measure timing advance due to knock you need to hold the throttle steady and be on a steady "grade" etc...the goal is not have any engine load variations so the timing number settles to something "desired"...then watch the knock gauge - when it starts to do its -0.25, -0.5, -1,... thing watch your timing advance gauge (again without moving the throttle!) and you should see timing increase. It does on my car every time. If the throttle position changes or the grade changes etc...what you are seeing is being caused by other variables.
My cars behavior is the exact opposite. Any kind of acceleration with cruise on 72 causes negative knock and timing retard. As the number climbs back to zero, timing is added every time. If I add accel, the negative number decreases and timing Is pulled even more.
So for these specific driving conditions, are you guys seeing the same thing?
Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 12, 2014, 08:09:12 PM
Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.
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Mine pretty much reads like yours
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 12, 2014, 08:09:12 PM
Weird. Although If you or the cruise control adds pedal the timing will go down. It is supposed to...it has nothing to do with the knock gauge it is just moving to a different part of the timing table. If you are saying you are keeping the throttle steady with very little rpm change and as the kr gauge decrements then it is subtracting timing then that is indeed opposite and I have no idea why it is different.
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The question is....is it pulling
less timing than it would otherwise
It's the not knowing that makes me nervous. High gear plus boost was deadly for a bunch of Mazda 2.3 turbos hence my concern.
What ethanol blend % are you running now, FoMoCo? Have you tried going back to E10/pump gas no blend? Maybe a fuel system drier, as water may have built up over time.
Quote from: SHOdded on August 13, 2014, 03:56:51 AM
What ethanol blend % are you running now, FoMoCo? Have you tried going back to E10/pump gas no blend? Maybe a fuel system drier, as water may have built up over time.
Since I was tuned last week, Down to 25%
I feel like if that was the issue, I'd see issues elsewhere also.
I sent Torrie a datalog of my normal drive to work, I will ask him to peek at what he sees on the SCT device.....that might help me figure out what is going on. Its just weird that it behaves pretty Much the same tuned or unturned.
So at 70 mph cruising speed with light throttle to get a -kr I was also seeing timing adv added...think this gauge will be replaced now
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 13, 2014, 10:37:38 AM
So at 70 mph cruising speed with light throttle to get a -kr I was also seeing timing adv added...think this gauge will be replaced now
That is what Larry and I see as well...can't figure out what is going on with the other guys...
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Anyone else notice more knock events since the updated equation? Before the update I would get .5 once in a while. Now I get .8 to 1.5 on light throttle at least once or 2x per drive? I think I'm going to double check against FORScan.
Only when mine is heatsoaked...the new intake mod actually helped me.
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Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 14, 2014, 04:26:58 PM
Only when mine is heatsoaked...the new intake mod actually helped me.
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Nice I'm glad that it did, I am starting to it maybe beneficial to go one step cooler on the plugs. It really doesn't seem to have any logical pattern. I will glance over at the readout and there it is. I try to duplicate it and can't? It's really weird. It's really cool here today also.
Quote from: ShoBoat on August 14, 2014, 04:24:35 PM
Anyone else notice more knock events since the updated equation? Before the update I would get .5 once in a while. Now I get .8 to 1.5 on light throttle at least once or 2x per drive? I think I'm going to double check against FORScan.
Yes. Well not anymore events, but a slightly higher reading in the normal kr situations. Also seems to respond faster, or its just reading smaller increments which makes it seem faster.
I haven't noticed any difference with the new equation so far at least. I am still running the stock tune right now due to trying to get the dealer to swap sensors in my tranny. My KR readings stock are -4 and +1
I should clarify one thing. The new equation accounts for a 1/4 of a degree. If you had a .75 before the old equation would have shown that as .5. Also .75 rounds to .8 so I could see you thinking it was higher visually. Or said differently, If you think its higher it was because you were getting .75 but it was only displaying the .5 as it didn't add the quarter degree.
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Makes sense, .5 is the difference I'm seeing.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on August 14, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
I should clarify one thing. The new equation accounts for a 1/4 of a degree. If you had a .75 before the old equation would have shown that as .5. Also .75 rounds to .8 so I could see you thinking it was higher visually. Or said differently, If you think its higher it was because you were getting .75 but it was only displaying the .5 as it didn't add the quarter degree.
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Thanks, but I believe that I am seeing more events period. What I mean is I could drive the car for a whole 20 min trip only seeing one .5 event. Now it seems like a more. Weird. I am taking my lap top with me tonight and will see if it does the same.
Maybe a slight reading of .25 was not being displayed prior.
Danger area is +4 to +5 right
Quote from: SHOnUup on August 14, 2014, 06:32:45 PM
Maybe a slight reading of .25 was not being displayed prior.
Danger area is +4 to +5 right
Possibly and anything over 5 is concerning 7+ is really freaking bad lol.
I'm pretty sure the ecu can compensate for up to +7
If you have a spare Airaid filter box (even the stock box) handy, I'd say to put that in and see if it make any difference. Keep an eye out for accumulations of gunk in the intake/CAC, ShoBoat. Wondering if any of that stuff that stayed in suspension is now condensing out in inappropriate places with the intake mod.
Quote from: glock-coma on August 14, 2014, 06:35:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the ecu can compensate for up to +7
Same here, but my thought is if your getting 5+ then something isn't right. Typically I have almost have never seen over 3.5. And that was mad heat soak at the track.
I went out earlier and it the new equation seems a bit more "sensitive" I believe that it might be reading quicker if that makes sense. I'm not sure what the difference is, I'll do some more logging tomorrow to see if I can put my finger on it.
Update...Had about 3 hours of driving over much different terrain than my normal commuting and putzing around. For the first time I had events where I could see timing added.
Hey guys just thought I would update my knock situation.
I sent Torrie some data logs through torque and he was able to correct my lugging condition +kr numbers.
Here's a couple pics before and after tune revision.
You want to look at the last 3 columns which are engine load, rpm and knock.
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost 3bar
more to come.....
Good to know that situation can be corrected! SHO running better now?
Good news! Curious what your timing was before and after...
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Haven't put many miles on her since the tune adjustment.
It didn't run bad before, just higher than nomal kr numbers.
Is this sort of a winter tune...or are you boosting octane?
Rich
Not a winter tune but I did switch to my 91 tune due to the crappy winter gas in my area.
Still using 93 octane with the 91 tune.
I still had high kr numbers.
Torrie then adjusted something in the tune file. No +kr as of yet.
Quote from: glock-coma on November 05, 2014, 07:41:45 AM
Not a winter tune but I did switch to my 91 tune due to the crappy winter gas in my area.
Still using 93 octane with the 91 tune.
I still had high kr numbers.
Torrie then adjusted something in the tune file. No +kr as of yet.
Good to hear, smooth "sailing" ahead.
Rich
Is there something different I have to do to get this to work for a 14? I put in the parameters exactly as they were on the first page but it either doesn't seem to work or I have no change in timing. I should expect it to at least increase the timing if I have no knock right?
Make sure the device that you're monitoring with isn't auto spacing after anything. I had this issue at first. Hard to notice actually.
Rich
Quote from: sunwolf on November 05, 2014, 08:02:05 AM
Is there something different I have to do to get this to work for a 14? I put in the parameters exactly as they were on the first page but it either doesn't seem to work or I have no change in timing. I should expect it to at least increase the timing if I have no knock right?
Are you "adding new pid", or just using the timing advance?
Rich
I am adding new pid. It auto spaced the first time I tried it but I fixed that it still wouldn't work. Funny thing is when it auto spaced the gauge said 0.0 but when I fixed the auto space it was just a - and no value ever popped up.
Are you getting the little activity square on gauge?
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on November 05, 2014, 08:21:32 AM
Are you getting the little activity square on gauge?
Rich
No
Quote from: sunwolf on November 05, 2014, 09:33:53 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on November 05, 2014, 08:21:32 AM
Are you getting the little activity square on gauge?
Rich
No
Can you post a screenshot of your setup. The pid info and equations page.
Rich
I have a 14 with the equation entered from the Torque thread and get knock readings just fine I believe -4 to +4 range.
Quote from: sunwolf on November 05, 2014, 08:02:05 AM
Is there something different I have to do to get this to work for a 14? I put in the parameters exactly as they were on the first page but it either doesn't seem to work or I have no change in timing. I should expect it to at least increase the timing if I have no knock right?
Importing the batch is much simpler than typing equations IMHO.
Much less opportunity for error....
Here's a pic so you can see how mine displays.
Just remade it and it works now. I was using a crappy adapter before but with the nnew one it seems fine. Readings ranged from 4.5 to -3.5 on a half hour drive just now. Will have to try e85 and see what happens.
1. Run tank low
2. Via Torque, fill with 93 to 70%
3. Top off with corn
4. Enjoy!
The car may feel a bit off for short time while it's trimming itself out, have no worries though as it is temporary. If you want to shorten the re-learn take it out and drive it under various conditions for an hour or so
You will notice this disappear as the LTFT's get dialed in and your STFT's get closer to zero. Once it's dialed in, the increase in throttle response and power is definitely noticeable, in my experience it was 4/10ths at the strip.
Scratch that, I just noticed you are LMS tuned.
Sorry, lol.
You need to calculate for 15-20%
I would start at 15
2 gallons of E / 85 per tank is working wonders so far. I like to add the E first if possible, to gaurantee a good mix.
FoMoCoSHO, your 4 tenths was on stock tune? Or was this experiment after tuned?
Rich
Stock
New layout and mount....
Lucky guy ... reserved parking ... :D
Looking good!!!
Rich
THANK YOU! This thread finally helped me after searching for 4 days to figure out how to add KR to torque. I know I'm bringing it back from the abyss, but I felt the need to say thank you.
Glad it was helpful! Have you seen the stickied thread for the other Torque PIDs? It has a lot if info...
Yes! Very impressive. Thanks for pointing me there. As an F-150 driver, I really like the civility of this forum. Its refreshing. However, the whole having to answer 5 verification questions before replying to a thread is trying... LOL
Quote from: chrisc321 on April 30, 2015, 10:59:42 PM
Yes! Very impressive. Thanks for pointing me there. As an F-150 driver, I really like the civility of this forum. Its refreshing. However, the whole having to answer 5 verification questions before replying to a thread is trying... LOL
Huh?
X2 what questions?
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If that is happening when you try to post, please pm SHOdded because something is definitely not right....
Part of the anti-spam effort. Only when you initially start posting. Should be fine after a couple of posts.
Just thought I would post here KR does not work on the 2016 Fusion 2.0EB. Also LOR does not work correctly. I am going to see if Forscan works and report back.
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Has anybody seen a 127 number on the gauge on this? In high gear with slight throttle, it shows 125 to 127........
That looks like the actual mV reading returned by the piezoelectric knock sensor, not knock count. Once the mV reaches the threshold value, then a knock count is registered.
Here is where it did it again today. 6th gear, cruise set, lugging uphill.
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/loweredd/FLEX/Screenshot_2015-12-28-11-33-13_zpsbljradu3.png)
LOR WAS at -0.7, I think I got some weak 91 last week, so I put in 3 gallons at a different station, and it went to -0.9. I think the high number is when it checks for knock, kind of like SHOdded suggested.
What's the PID and formula you are using?
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PID is 2203ec and equation is (A)/2+(B/512)
Quote from: ecoboostsho on December 28, 2015, 07:47:38 PM
What's the PID and formula you are using?
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this, can you screen shot it
Ha! I ninjad you, but here's a screenshot.
(http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/loweredd/FLEX/Screenshot_2015-12-28-18-03-44_zpskiyjw4df.png)
Looks like I need to update my original formula...I did in the file but not in the thread. Try the following...
((signed(A)*256)+B)/512
No spaces and be careful typing it in.
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Oh - you have to have "signed" in the formula or you will get exactly the results you did....
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Ah! OK. Thanks for the info!