I'm an administrator over on Taurusclub.com, and many of you probably know me! I wanted to share this info with other Ford owners! I'll add more as I learn more. It's about CAN basically. Thanks for reading!
So for the few of you that care about this, I decided to modify a cheap ELM327 clone to read both MS and HS-CAN data. Normally ELM327 can only read HS-CAN data. This writeup will show you how to modify an ELM327 device so it will read MS-CAN.
Thanks to tech advisor behlinla for his help in teaching me some of this info and editing the article!
Info on CAN bus:
Note: Only 2004+ vehicles will have CAN bus (basically if you have digital display in your instrument cluster). OBD-II cars before that used the SAE J1850 PWM protocol, which will still work with FORscan.
Now some of you may be asking: "What in the heck is this guy talking about... MS and HS-CAN???" CAN stands for Controller Area Network, and it's a digital network that connects different modules in your car much like computers would be connected to a network (LAN) in your home or workplace. Accessing the data and self-tests on this network will be useful if you want to troubleshoot problems with something other than the engine (like with the ABS or air bags for example). In the past you used to have to buy very expensive scan tools and software to view this data, but now you can can have this information at your fingertips for as little as $10!
There are two separate CAN buses on most vehicles before 2013, called HS-CAN (High Speed) and MS-CAN (Medium Speed). HS-CAN is used for 'priority' data, like engine parameters (PCM) and critical communication between safety modules like the ABS and RCM. MS-CAN is used more for things inside the car like radio, climate, and lighting control.
In new cars (2013+), nearly every function and control goes over a CAN bus. They have four CAN buses (3x HS and 1x MS) because there is much more data flying around. Things on CAN would be your headlamp switch, drivers door switches, hazard lights, turn signal stalk, dimmer switches, seat adjustments, mirror adjustments, any button on your dash, you name it! I need to scan a 2013+ Ford to actually find out what modules there are!
The HS and MS-CAN buses are bridged together in the instrument panel cluster (IPC) so data can be shared between networks if required. In the 2013+ they bridge together in a separate gateway module.
HS-CAN modules:
-PCM (Powertrain Control Module)
-ABS (Anti-lock Brake System, includes AdvanceTrac and Traction Control)
-RCM (Restraint Control Module, AKA airbags and seatbelts)
-AWD (All Wheel Drive module, if equipped)
-OCSM (Occupent Classification System Module, AKA Passenger Seat Sensors)
-PAM (Parking Aid Module)
-IPC (Instrument Panel Cluster)
-BdyCM (Body Control Module 2013+)
-ACM (Audio Control Module, 2013+)
-FCIM (Front Controls Interface Module, 2013+)
-PSCM (Power Steering Control Module, Hydraulic PS only)
-SECM (Steering Effort Control Module, Electric PS only)
-CCM (Cruise Control Module)
-SCCM (Steering Column Control Module, 2013+)
-APIM (Accessory Protocol Interface Module AKA SYNC)
MS-CAN modules:
-SJB (Smart Junction Box)
-HVAC (Heating, Ventilation & Air Conditioning module)
-ACM (Audio Control Module, pre 2013)
-DSP (Audio Digital Signal Processing Module)
-DSM (Driver Seat Module)
-DDM (Driver Door Module)
-RFA (Remote Function Actuator Module)
-DCSM (Dual Climate Controlled Seat Module)
-SDARS (Satellite Digital Audio Radio Service)
-FCIM (Front Controls Interface Module, pre 2013)
-FDIM (Front Display Interface Module)
-ILCM (Interior Lighting Control Module)
-HCM-2 (High Beam Control Module)
-SOD-R/L (Side Obstacle Detection Control Module AKA BLIS, a module for each side of the vehicle)
-IPC-MS (Instrument Panel Cluster, MS-CAN)
-GPSM (Global Positioning System Module)
-APIM (Accessory Protocol Interface Module AKA SYNC)
Notice how some modules change busses for the 2013MY. That's probably because they have 3xHS-CAN Busses now instead of 1 HS and 1 MS-CAN bus. Other possibility is they run on both busses and meet at a gateway module. Hopefully will confirm one or the other soon.
There may be other modules on other cars or less modules on some cars. Here's a diagram from a 2011 that show all the modules connected to the CAN: http://revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875110 (http://revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875110)
How to modify your ELM327:
A bunch of us have cheap eBay ELM327 Clones. Stock they only connect to HS-CAN and will not be able to access MS-CAN. The newer STN1170 chips found in some scan tools already have support for MS-CAN (and GM single wire CAN), so you're set if you have one of those!
It's very simple to modify the device to allow use of MS-CAN features. You need a dual position, dual pole (DPDT) switch. Flipping the switch will direct either the HS- or MS-CAN terminal pair in the DLC to the input of the ELM327 chip.
(http://www.cubisteffects.com/images/MIY/Pt3_Throw.jpg)
Instructions adapted from here: http://forscan.org/howto.html (http://forscan.org/howto.html)
Step 1: Crack open the clone or your ELM327 Device. Usually there are 4 screws under the sticker.
Step 2: Unplug the OBD-II connector and un-solder wires connected to pins 6 and 14 (mark them so you know which is which).
Step 3: Solder 2 new wires to pins 6 and 14 (HS-CAN pair) on the OBD-II connector.
Step 4: Solder 2 new wires to pins 3 and 11 (MS-CAN pair) on the OBD-II connector.
Step 5: Solder the wires originally on pins 6 and 14 to the two middle poles on the switch.
Step 6: Solder the new wires on 6 and 14 to one side of the switch (be sure the polarity is correct. Pin 6 will match up with the one originally on pin 6)
Step 7: Solder the new wires on 3 and 11 to the other side of the switch. Be sure to keep pin 3 with the one originally on pin 6 for polarity purposes.
BE SURE NOT TO MIX UP MS-CAN AND HS-CAN AND OBSERVE POLARITY!!! Bad things happen if you do that. I used RED wires for HS-CAN and Black wires for MS-CAN.
A few diagrams of how it works:
Diagrams are showing the dash connector view, reverse for the scan tool view!
(http://forscan.org/images/howto3/elm-mod.png)
(http://forscan.org/images/howto3/Ford_OBD2.png)
Pictures of the process and final product:
My ELM327 motherboard:
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/image-3_zps43c08095.jpeg) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/breeves001/media/image-3_zps43c08095.jpeg.html)
Wires soldered onto the OBD-II connector:
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/photo2_zps33aaff97.jpg) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/breeves001/media/photo2_zps33aaff97.jpg.html)
Switch installed (oops forgot some heat shrink):
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/photo1_zps6e6ba79e.jpg) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/breeves001/media/photo1_zps6e6ba79e.jpg.html)
All in the little package waiting to be put back together, also the crappy hole I cut:
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/photo12_zpsf29dcfae.jpg) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/breeves001/media/photo12_zpsf29dcfae.jpg.html)
Finished product!:
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/photo32_zps5c345d89.jpg)
HOW TO ACCESS MS-CAN VIA FORSCAN:
Now when you open FORScan it will ask you if you have an MS/HS CAN switch. SAY YES! You may have to delete your cars profile, close the program, re-open it, then connect again for it to ask you the question. Annoyingly I have to do this almost every time I use the program!
(http://forscan.org/images/howto3/HSMSSwitch_question.jpg)
Please feel free to PM me with any questions. I'll be happy to sell anyone one of these modified for $29 including shipping.
FORSCAN.org (http://"http://forscan.org/download.html") - Download it today. May be the best free software out there!
Once you get connected you can do everything you can do on OBDWiz and ScanXL (pretty much), but you can also run self tests over both HS-CAN and MS-CAN. Here are the modules I can see and tests I can run:
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/ScreenShot2013-07-16at20419PM_zps5c527f26.png)
I edited some of the formatting and the horizontal line for you.
Hopefully I can also start seeing the AWD system parameters and AWD nanny stuff here.
Thanks for the info! I love this Scan tool...just wish it was available for Android. That said it has a ton of parameters. The MX adapter already has the correct chip set so it is ready for MS CAN out of the box.
Wow, thanks for the quick reply's! Looks like this forum is pretty active.
Well you can use torque for android which gives some pretty good info, however can't view MSCAN. The STN1170 chip is way better than ELM327 but costs at least 3x more. This is the poor mans way to modify things. I have a OBDLink SX already but got this cheap clone for free so thought I would modify it! I'm thinking about buying this too: http://batman.homelinux.com/blog/stn1170-bluetooth-obdii-adapter/ (http://batman.homelinux.com/blog/stn1170-bluetooth-obdii-adapter/)
Thank you for fixing the formatting. I copied and pasted from VB. You should be able to view the 4x4 computer over HSCAN, but maybe there are some hidden 4x4 PIDs over MSCAN. I'm pretty sure the AWD system is considered priority though. I don't have a car to test it out on so if you are able, please let me know so I can add to it!
FORScan is just the best free scan tool software right now to view all of this stuff with. I also use ScanXL with Ford enhanced which gives some other PIDs and isn't buggy.
I'll install any program I have to just so that I can figure this AWD system out. :)
It's another mountain I'll have to climb but I've got my climbing boots on and I'm not giving up! :)
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 18, 2013, 04:25:29 PM
I'll install any program I have to just so that I can figure this AWD system out. :)
It's another mountain I'll have to climb but I've got my climbing boots on and I'm not giving up! :)
Good luck! It shouldn't be too hard. Not sure what PIDs are available, but FORScan should give you access to them. If it doesn't I know for a fact ScanXL with enhanced ford has it, and over HSCAN, so you may consider buying that. Scan XL will run you $200 with the enhanced Ford though which is pricy when FORScan is free!
I made a bunch of edits and added more modules that these cars have.
I learned that over HSCAN there is an AWD module that you can access! So with FORScan and any ELM327 (unmodified) you should be able to access that. ScanXL will work too.
View all the things a 2011 has over CAN bus here: http://revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875110 (http://revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875110)
I inquired on ScanTool.net forum if they can make us a ready to use MX adapter for our cars.
We'll see what they say!
I use one from ScanTool.net with Torque. Anything you want me to check later?
I need to see a listing of any of the custom pids that might have anything to do with AWD.
I need to dork around with and learn it better. I sort of just plugged it in and went, "This is neat", seen an unusually high boost at stock and went about my day.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 18, 2013, 06:27:27 PM
I need to see a listing of any of the custom pids that might have anything to do with AWD.
Here you go...from Forscan with my MX adapter (using HS CAN)
OK, awesome. I'll have my MX adapter soon so I can start playing with it. :)
I have http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-bluetooth.html (http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-bluetooth.html)
Is the MX something different that I'm missing or possibly overlooked?
Nope, that tool, I just have to stop by and pick it up :)
Whoops, I should have looked at your link - it's this one:
http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-mx.html (http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-mx.html)
They sent me the one you have but I don't one a long cord in my car so I'm swapping them. :)
Went for a quick drive. I have a PP so I turned Advance Trac off completely so it wouldn't interfere with wheelspin. Unfortunately I don't have a car that can generate a ton of wheelspin (need a few more power adders I guess) but I can get a little off the line. The graph I've attached is a little hard to read but the beginning is when I floored the car (AP% light blue line going to 100%). It engages the module immediately (top line) and then sends the PWM duty cycle to 100% briefly until the wheels gain traction. Interestingly it appears to be a pulse width modulated circuit. The problem I see is that at present if it is sending a 100% PWM signal you aren't going to get anything else out of it (since the signal represents "On time" for the waveform that is driving the unit unless you can actually send additional current back toward) it you may be maxed out. That said there is also a Calibration Table "B" which indicates it can load additional calibrations so perhaps it is possible to modify the actual maximum level.
The other lines are wheel speed and a DTC self test I would be interested in seeing this graph in a higher horsepower car that can generate more spin...
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 18, 2013, 07:20:47 PM
Went for a quick drive. I have a PP so I turned Advance Trac off completely so it wouldn't interfere with wheelspin. Unfortunately I don't have a car that can generate a ton of wheelspin (need a few more power adders I guess) but I can get a little off the line. The graph I've attached is a little hard to read but the beginning is when I floored the car (AP% light blue line going to 100%). It engages the module immediately (top line) and then sends the PWM duty cycle to 100% briefly until the wheels gain traction. Interestingly it appears to be a pulse width modulated circuit. The problem I see is that at present if it is sending a 100% PWM signal you aren't going to get anything else out of it (since the signal represents "On time" for the waveform that is driving the unit unless you can actually send additional current back toward) it you may be maxed out. That said there is also a Calibration Table "B" which indicates it can load additional calibrations so perhaps it is possible to modify the actual maximum level.
The other lines are wheel speed and a DTC self test I would be interested in seeing this graph in a higher horsepower car that can generate more spin...
Great job with that. Now if we can scan a high HP car that can generate wheel spin and then find the module that is telling the ECU that something bad is happening and to close the throttle body.
As far as the PWM signal, if I can interrupt it and send 100% right from the start so the AWD system is at 50/50 we shouldn't have any spin or much less.
Agreed (assuming the clutches hold up. :) ) I would think the ECU itself would just use the difference in wheelspin from front to back to determine when to intercept. If it tells the AWD system to kick in and stop wheelspin and it still sees slippage at the wheels eventually it assumes the clutches are slipping and probably shuts down the system to save itself. So if you could up the signal and keep the wheels from slipping you should be able to prevent the PCM from stepping in? Then again...I'm just speculating. Looking forward to your testing.
I see epic things a brewing.
Is it just me or was more found out in the last couple hours then there has been in the last 6 months or atleast posted for all to see
Question for torrie or livernois?
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Can someone with a 2013 PLEASE post a screenshot of all the HS and MSCAN modules they have? I only can find details up to the 2011 MY. I know they have more for the 2013 MY. 2011 and 2012 should be the same..
That would be AWESOME.
Hoping to put this on my agenda for tomorrow.
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Also... in addition, someone with an OBDLink MX or a scan tool with the STN1170 chip, can you please tell me if you can stream data from BOTH MS and HSCAN at the same time with it? I have to switch it over with the ELM327, and it would be cool to be able to use both!
If you have an OBDLink MX or scan tool with the STN1170 and have some free time please PM me. I'll even let you use my copy of ScanXL to help find me some data! It's for the community anyways.
Im on my tab, I have the one mentioned in the link earlier, would that work?
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Quote from: adelsin on July 19, 2013, 12:09:48 AM
Im on my tab, I have the one mentioned in the link earlier, would that work?
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Yes that one will work perfectly!
Also please screenshot me all the HS and MS CAN modules your 2013 has! Just go to the self test page like I did (in the first post, last picture) and screenshot it and upload it here! I'll add any more to that.
I believe you have a BCM instead of a SJB. Ford just started using that instead.
I was under the impression the SJB was the bridge for the low and high speed busses in the '13. The dealer put the wrong SJB in my car and nothing could talk to each other anymore. Te dash lit up like a Christmas tree and all the modules were throwing codes.
I will do this first thing after work. Will FORscan work? I have obdwiz that came with the device as well.
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Quote from: adelsin on July 19, 2013, 12:38:50 AM
I will do this first thing after work. Will FORscan work? I have obdwiz that came with the device as well.
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OBDWiz is good for Mode $06, but worthless for almost everything else. Love it for diagnosing misfires though!
Please use FORScan. Let me know if it shows MS-CAN modules like the ACM or BCM/SJB!! If it doesn't, then I'll send you my copy of ScanXL and hopefully that will see it. Once you see all of the modules, go to the self test page and upload a screenshot of that here to show all of the different modules. The real question is can you view data from HS and MS can at the same time. So try recording PIDs from HVAC and from the PCM at the same time. Not sure how it will work, but good luck! We can always try ScanXL if FORScan doesn't work (since its a beta program). However FORScan may be the best scan tool software under $5000!!
Quote from: dalum on July 19, 2013, 12:30:59 AM
I was under the impression the SJB was the bridge for the low and high speed busses in the '13. The dealer put the wrong SJB in my car and nothing could talk to each other anymore. Te dash lit up like a Christmas tree and all the modules were throwing codes.
On a 2013 there is a seperate gateway module that bridges the four networks. I think that that is separate from the BCM. The 2013 has a BCM instead so if they put in an SJB from a 2010-2012, then you would have huge problems obviously!
May need help with it.
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My ford tech cd still calls it a SJB I think. It was the "fuse box" under the dash I believe I'll have to look at it again tomorrow. The output for my drivers front turn signal got hosed.
Quote from: dalum on July 19, 2013, 12:46:17 AM
My ford tech cd still calls it a SJB I think. It was the "fuse box" under the dash I believe I'll have to look at it again tomorrow. The output for my drivers front turn signal got hosed.
They may not have updated it. I'm 90% sure that its a BCM in the 2013's. It's virtually the same thing, just different terminology. On any car without a gateway module the networks meet up in the instrument cluster. I could be wrong on the BCM, I'll try to find out for sure.
I have confirmation that the devices from Scantool.net:
http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-mx.html (http://www.scantool.net/obdlink-mx.html)
and
http://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/smart-phone/obdlink-bluetooth.html (http://www.scantool.net/scan-tools/smart-phone/obdlink-bluetooth.html)
Can do both HS and MS CAN data logging, I am working on confirming if it is simultaneously.
No switch required.
I'm also working on getting myself set up as a dealer or have them set up some group buys.
Great thing is they are here in Phoenix with me.
Thats great news! Planning on finding out some sweet info on a 2013 tonight so stay tuned!
EDIT: Just read you are trying to find out if it works simultaneously. That is the big question. I knew at least the first could do both.
I'm planning on buying one of these pretty soon: http://batman.homelinux.com/blog/stn1170-bluetooth-obdii-adapter/ (http://batman.homelinux.com/blog/stn1170-bluetooth-obdii-adapter/)
It's the STN1170 chip but costs less than the OBDLink MX.
The only thing I could ask for now is access to dealer scan tool software as well as a writable scan tool device. Of course even if I got the dealer software for free, the hardware is crazy expensive.
Read in the manual about BCM today... hope that helps. I should be available about 5pm tonight AZ time.
Need to load the laptop with scantool drivers, download and install forscan, and for time's sake, get teamviewer on it. I'm on point to point wireless with no dedicated IP. You may have to settle for skype.
I set up FORscan and my adapter... Enabled hscan on the sofyware... Then my awd turned off then on a lot threw some abs codes and then service awd light came on then off...
Couldnt find any of the 4wd pids mentioned in the screenshot. Do i have to do something to get them to show?
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Hmmm...mine did something similar with the ABS (threw a code related to ABS but not the 4x4 module) but thought it was just me. Try this. Turn off the car. unplug the adapter. Close Forscan. Restart the car and the adapter. Then try and run Forscan again. Clear the DTC's. Try connecting again. If that doesn't work repeat the "reset".
The code seemed to keep Forscan from working somehow although I could clear it. I'm assuming you don't have any other OBD readers (i.e. Torque) connected at the same time. That would give pretty unpredictable results.
I dont jave the 4wd clutch pwm status
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I have awd clutch commanded and diagnostic signal
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First Row, APP - Accelerator Pedal Position
Second Row, AWD_CLTCH_CMD - AWD Clutch Control Commanded
Third Row, AWD_CLT_DIAGSIG - AWD Clutch Diagnostic Signal
I'm assuming Second Row is the AWD engaging?
One is 0-60 with powerbraking... notice how the clutch control is commanded prior to full launch?
I'm chalking up not having the same settings due to being a 2013. :/
Other is normal driving down street. No traction slip.
Looks like the AWD is working correctly! You can see how its getting ready for you to launch (not quite going full on, but close). Then you can see how you go WOT and it pops up to full on with you.
So some new info today! Connected to HSCAN only to a 2013 SHO. Thank you to adelsin for the help! Our conversation got cut short, but learning new things every day!!
(http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b507/breeves001/ScreenShot2013-07-19at101217PM_zps73622eb1.png) (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/breeves001/media/ScreenShot2013-07-19at101217PM_zps73622eb1.png.html)
See we have the BdyCM for the Body Control Module which replaced the SJB for the 2013MY! Ran a self test on it and it honked the horn at people he was near :P heh! Interestingly enough it goes over HSCAN instead of MSCAN like the SJB on the previous years goes over. It may have an MSCAN section too, but we didn't get to that since his reader ONLY reads HSCAN.
It seems that the AWD module was removed for the 2013MY and is now built directly into the PCM! Interesting! Still need someone that has an OBDLink MX to please connect to MSCAN and show me everything on that side to confirm everything.
I may be able to get with 4D and borrow his to see whats connecting. I wonder if I select no to hscan if it displays ms can??
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Quote from: adelsin on July 20, 2013, 12:13:39 AM
I may be able to get with 4D and borrow his to see whats connecting. I wonder if I select no to hscan if it displays ms can??
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Possibly, I'm wondering if FORScan just can't display MSCAN through the STN1170 chip, and only through the ELM327 with a switch.... I'll have to do some research.
Okay so the OBDLink Bluetooth is the STN1130 chip (I think) which CANNOT view MS-CAN data without adding a switch like you must do to the ELM327. The STN1170 is the only one that can do that without a switch as far as I know.
adelsin, if you can connect to yours again it should say in the log window what chip it is using.
So if I modify my bluetooth one like in your tutorial, it should be fine?
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Quote from: adelsin on July 20, 2013, 01:02:40 AM
So if I modify my bluetooth one like in your tutorial, it should be fine?
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Correct!
However lets make 100% sure its the STN1130 chip first. Connect to it again and in the log window and it should say the chip its using somewhere (ELM327, STN1130, STN1170).
Also since yours isn't an ELM327 clone I would be careful when you modify, that is an expensive scan tool! Just don't mix up the HS and MS-CAN and you should be just fine. If it looks completely different than mine does, post pics and I'll try and help you.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 18, 2013, 06:35:39 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 18, 2013, 06:27:27 PM
I need to see a listing of any of the custom pids that might have anything to do with AWD.
Here you go...from Forscan with my MX adapter (using HS CAN)
Just saw this, thanks for posting! From the AWD computer?
Any chance you can connect with me over Skype and team viewer so I can see a few things with the OBDLink MX while connected to your car? That would be sweet! Or I can send you a PM with a few tests I'd like you to run.
That was the 2011 I was telling you about.
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Aha! Well if you guys can get together tomorrow and run a few tests that would be great. I won't be available until after 2pm, but if you run tests earlier thats fine.
See if there is an 'All' option under the modules you can select to record PIDs from. Then record things from MS-CAN and HS-CAN at the same time (select like the AWD clutch PID and the HVAC blend door position or something like that!). Also screenshot all of the different modules that pop up over MS-CAN on your 2013 with his OBDLink MX.
Hey, so I talk to Lee, or 'behlinla', a Tech Advisor over on TCCA a lot and he helps me a ton on learning about things like this! So this wasn't all me!
He has some more to add to all of this after reading your posts. Why he doesn't just make an account.... I'm not sure! Here it is:
The AWD engagement is controlled by a active torque control coupling (ATCC) solenoid. The percentage of torque going to the rear wheels is directly proportional to the amount of current going through the ATCC solenoid, which is normally controlled by a PWM 12V signal generated by the AWD module. The AWD module communicates with the PCM over HS-CAN. Torque vectoring is directly proportional to throttle angle and any detected front wheel slip.
In theory, providing a constant 12V source to the solenoid via something like a simple switch would force full lockup, but the problem there would be the possibility of axle wind-up if you are driving on a paved surface. So I wouldn't think you want to have the axle at 100% for more than a few seconds. Not sure if there is still some slip in the unit at 100% solenoid duty cycle or not to prevent damage. Looking at scan data it looks like the module does run it at 100% for a few seconds.
The ideal solution would be an add-on box that provides the desired PWM signal to the solenoid that you could select. I'm guessing it's a high-current solenoid, so the control box would have to be rated to handle it. Perhaps something like those aftermarket turbo boost solenoid controllers would work.
Also not sure how the AWD module would react to having the solenoid being taken out of the circuit via a switch or having an external voltage applied, so that will probably cause trouble codes and possibly cause the PCM to enter a limp mode or limit torque in absence of a solenoid. Someone should unplug the solenoid and see what happens. You might be able to fool it with a resistor of the same value as the solenoid though. So when you flip the switch it puts the resistor in place of the solenoid and then sends full 12V to the solenoid. The other switch position puts it back to stock config.
Here's the diagram of the system on a 2011: http://revbase.com/BBBMOTOR/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875117 (http://revbase.com/BBBMOTOR/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=875117)
What about all of the gander saying its limited to a mear 150 ft lbs of torque?
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Hmmm. He isn't sure, nor am I. This system was designed for the regular taurus, not specifically the SHO, so I'm not exactly sure. I'm going to bed, but Lee is going to try and do some research.
Can an AWD dyno measure just the power output from the rear wheels??
Quote from: breeves002 on July 20, 2013, 02:11:31 AM
Hmmm. He isn't sure, nor am I. This system was designed for the regular taurus, not specifically the SHO, so I'm not exactly sure. I'm going to bed, but Lee is going to try and do some research.
Can an AWD dyno measure just the power output from the rear wheels??
That was what I wanted. Wanted to call around tomorrow. Since Im seeing different results than the pre2013 users, I might to try to add some more power. Based on my results so far, it appears that I am in fact getting full or mostly full engagment of the rear assembly at launch. I also want to try some hard turns with it on.
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Quote from: breeves002 on July 20, 2013, 01:56:02 AM
In theory, providing a constant 12V source to the solenoid via something like a simple switch would force full lockup, but the problem there would be the possibility of axle wind-up if you are driving on a paved surface. So I wouldn't think you want to have the axle at 100% for more than a few seconds. Not sure if there is still some slip in the unit at 100% solenoid duty cycle or not to prevent damage. Looking at scan data it looks like the module does run it at 100% for a few seconds.
The ideal solution would be an add-on box that provides the desired PWM signal to the solenoid that you could select. I'm guessing it's a high-current solenoid, so the control box would have to be rated to handle it. Perhaps something like those aftermarket turbo boost solenoid controllers would work.
Also not sure how the AWD module would react to having the solenoid being taken out of the circuit via a switch or having an external voltage applied, so that will probably cause trouble codes and possibly cause the PCM to enter a limp mode or limit torque in absence of a solenoid. Someone should unplug the solenoid and see what happens. You might be able to fool it with a resistor of the same value as the solenoid though. So when you flip the switch it puts the resistor in place of the solenoid and then sends full 12V to the solenoid. The other switch position puts it back to stock config.
I would caution you to be careful with this approach. I agree that sending a full 12V to the circuit would certainly cause the solenoid to fully engage however the solenoid will have some maximum rated current before it burns up. If the PCM had a current limiting circuit (i.e. a resistor) in line with this output and you bypass it with 12V directly to the solenoid I can assure you very, very bad things will happen in the blink of an eye and you will be left with a non-functioning AWD system. That is why I suggested we either obtain the rating on the solenoid or measure the current system output at 100%. Unfortunately you can't do that by "tapping" in to the wires. You can only measure voltage that way. To measure current output you either need to be inline with the circuit or measure it inductively. A vampire tap won't cut it.
FWIW I am a former electrical engineer turned IT manager and I'm not trying to discourage you from experimenting just cautioning you to do so carefully. I'd hate to see anyone burn up their stuff!
Quote from: breeves002 on July 20, 2013, 01:06:17 AM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 18, 2013, 06:35:39 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 18, 2013, 06:27:27 PM
I need to see a listing of any of the custom pids that might have anything to do with AWD.
Here you go...from Forscan with my MX adapter (using HS CAN)
Just saw this, thanks for posting! From the AWD computer?
Any chance you can connect with me over Skype and team viewer so I can see a few things with the OBDLink MX while connected to your car? That would be sweet! Or I can send you a PM with a few tests I'd like you to run.
Yes it was from the AWD computer.
I will try and pull a few parameters from the HS CAN and MS CAN later today with my MX to see if it is possible without modifying it.
I am willing to help however I can but my wife and I actually just had a set of twins 4 weeks ago so I have my hands full over here! I don't know that a timed event via Skype would work for me but I would be willing to help via a PM if you can be patient with me. :)
Congrats, ecoboostsho, on the twins!
Congratulations! !
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Thanks guys!
Okay so I tried to access the MS CAN network in the car with my MX (which does have the STN111070 chip and should support it) with Forscan and it was a no go. It asks me if I have the switch (I say yes) and then it tries but doesn't get back anything. It does see the following modules on the HS CAN but that isn't new.
Thoughts?
Amazing updates guys!
I'll have my local electrical guru buddy take a look with me while we're on the dyno so we can watch it happen. :)
BTW, this lines up EXACTLY with what I was told from the engineer who designed the system. :)
I'm being lazy if somebody could get me a part # of the ATCC solenoid maybe I can buy one to play with out of the car. :)
I searched quickly but couldn't find one on fordparts.com
Mentioned in another thread.., looks like the solenoid is a part of the rear assembly. Part 4000.
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Congrats on the twins!!!
Lee and I have FWD cars (2008 Sable Premier FWD and 2010 Fusion Sport FWD), so we can't even look into the AWD computer because we don't have one!!
Anyways, we won't be doing this mod, he only thought of this idea and put it out there. I'm sure he'll have something to say about it later. I'm actually in school at Washington University in St. Louis to become and electrical engineer, so cool!
Oh also from Lee last night:
So I was not able to find a torque spec for the torque coupling. The 150 lb-ft max thing seems to be spread around by EcoBrick Bob on SHO forums based on his own testing and assumptions. But I agree that number sound plausible based on the size of the unit and how the torque bias is set up on the AWD system. Stock torque is 350 lb-ft, and I think the driveline loss is about 20-25%, so that means at 50/50 split the rear would get about 130-140 lb-ft. The clutches can only hold so tight, so above that threshold they will start to slip (which actually would be desirable to mitigate axle wind-up). It's possible the max torque may be slightly higher (like 175 lb-ft), but that would be wasteful over-engineering after that point (remember the engineers don't design for how much power tuners might make with cars).
The unit for 2013+ may be revised in some fashion, perhaps with greater torque capacity.
Well dang! FORScan must only support MS-CAN through the ELM327 chip with a switch... Hmmm.... Feel like buying a $12 ELM327 and modifying it to my specs? I'm just curious what modules you have under MS-CAN.
One last thing to try: Hit no when it asks if you have a switch. Maybe it can find the MS-CAN modules that way. When you tell it yes, it is trying to search for more modules over the same bus it was just scanning (in theory its expecting the switch to be flipped so its guessing the modules are in the same place).
Tried hitting no and didn't get anywhere unfortunately. I see there is a programming reference available. Perhaps it needs a command to get into the right mode...
So some more from Lee (make an account already, Lee!):
"The critique about the solenoid current is valid, and I was aware of what he was saying, just didn't say it. You would want to measure the energized solenoid current and then use Ohm's law to figure out the correct size of the resistor.
Bummer on the MX not connecting to MS-CAN. Glad I went with the ELM327 then! The developer might not support it yet, so someone should email them and ask for STN1170 support to be added.
The 2013+ Escape has a new torque coupling that allows 100% power to the rear wheels, so I would expect that to be added to the Taurus or at least the SHO at some point in the future. The powertrains on those are really advanced and you can actually tow with them now (3500 lbs)!"
Can anyone say RWD burnouts?!
Im content with awd... just need to make sure it scales with power increases.
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Though it would be cool to be able to control exactly how much power goes to the rear wheels versus the front wheels. At this point, thats a dream since the actual mechanics aren't designed for that.
Just gotta get the MS-CAN data to make sure we're not missing anything. Someone with a 2013 PLEASE go ahead and get an ELM327 and modify it like I show on the first page of this thread!
I will... I wil...
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Haha, one way or another we'll get it!
Is the MX confirmed for ms and hs can? I still want to try the no hs option first.
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Quote from: adelsin on July 21, 2013, 01:45:05 AM
Is the MX confirmed for ms and hs can? I still want to try the no hs option first.
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Well the MX can access BOTH MS and HS CAN, but it seems FORScan doesn't support it yet.
Didnt ecoboostsho get both?
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No, through FORScan he could only connect to HS-CAN as he said before. He tried saying yes there is a switch and no there isn't. Hopefully they add the proper support too....
I need to find my install file of Scan XL so we can try that out!
Quote from: ecoboostsho on July 20, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
Okay so I tried to access the MS CAN network in the car with my MX (which does have the STN111070 chip and should support it) with Forscan and it was a no go. It asks me if I have the switch (I say yes) and then it tries but doesn't get back anything. It does see the following modules on the HS CAN but that isn't new.
Thoughts?
Okay I just saw that you have the STN1150 chip according to FORScan. Go back and look at that screenshot!
Either the MX isn't 1170 or you have an old version of it? Gotta find someone with a switched ELM or the STN1170 chip!
EDIT: Did some digging and found that the STN1150 is very similar to the STN1170 and does support MS-CAN so I'm still scratching my head.
Interesting. I didn't notice that in the header. I must have the previous verison - but yes as you indicated it should still support MS CAN.
Sending out my modified ELM327 to adelsin tomorrow! Should get some data as soon as that bad boy gets hooked up in a few days! Should be there by Wednesday I would hope (if USPS Priority mail really is that fast).
More knowledge to be gained. Already ordered another ELM327 for me to modify for myself again :P
If anyone else wants one, $29 including shipping and it can be yours!
So I did find a little bit more new info today. 2010 Fusion Sport FWD we got connected up and had a little different results.
Adding a few more pics to first page of another device build and adding info.
Has the 4x4 controllers and everything!
Yeah in ScanXL the 4x4 computer pops up for my car, but I'm not sure what it can do.
I made a mistake with the new ELM327 adaptor I bought. It was cheaper than the last one and not working since I modded it so I may have to buy another.
All I know is the one I sent you may not look pretty but it sure works! Remember HS-CAN is the switch facing the screw.
Got your text! Thanks for reminding me. Still waiting for it to come. Should be here tomorrow, I hope.
Well you are pretty far. I would bet on Friday, but USPS priority mail is pretty fast. I sent it flat rate and I've noticed flat rate gets places really quickly.
I finally got my MX bluetooth adapter connected to my laptop and run out real quick to data log.
I can access all the modules without the switch, I clicked on I don't know when it came up.
I can data log from the various modules individually, I don't know how to do simultaneous logs from multiple modules.
I also can see the car going into AWD when throttle is applied.
I need to see what happens when it spins. I also noticed the 4 ABS sensors there, I think the interception of the rear ABS sensor and replicating the fronts to the rear would stop the spin nanny that I'm experiencing.
Here's the pictures.
I don't see any MSCAN modules popping up. Should see HVAC at the very least. SDARS too if you have satellite radio. Also DSM if you have the memory settings for your drivers seat. So it's not reading MS CAN data as of now.
I also like your "Theft Detected, Vehicle Immobilized" code... Did you try starting it without a PATS key? LOL, whats that from?
Quote from: breeves002 on July 29, 2013, 12:53:39 AM
I also like your "Theft Detected, Vehicle Immobilized" code... Did you try starting it without a PATS key? LOL, whats that from?
I had a key go bad, I'll try and read the car again
Sent from my phone with lots of misspelled words...
Test
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I emailed the FORScan people and they said it should work fine with the stn1170 chip. Here's what they said: "Hello,
Thanks for the feedback and good words.
FORScan supports STN1170 chipset since version 2.1.0 (please see release notes: http://www.forscan.org/download.html). Tests were made on 3rd party adapter with STN1170 (not OBDLink MX), but we believe there should be no much difference. In other words, it should work. Can you please send us FORScan logs made for OBDLink MX device? Instruction is here:
http://www.forscan.org/contactus.html
Regards,
FORScan Team
"
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Well I emailed the FORScan people and this is what they told me: "Hello,
Thanks for the feedback and good words.
FORScan supports STN1170 chipset since version 2.1.0 (please see release notes: http://www.forscan.org/download.html (http://www.forscan.org/download.html)). Tests were made on 3rd party adapter with STN1170 (not OBDLink MX), but we believe there should be no much difference. In other words, it should work. Can you please send us FORScan logs made for OBDLink MX device? Instruction is here:
http://www.forscan.org/contactus.html (http://www.forscan.org/contactus.html)
Regards,
FORScan Team"
So if it doesn't work again if you can get the log files and send them that would be cool.
What should I choose to see the MSCAN bus when I connect?
I honestly don't know...
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Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 29, 2013, 12:28:56 PM
What should I choose to see the MSCAN bus when I connect?
I would just try different combinations. When it asks if you have a switch hit yes. I know you hit IDK before. If that doesn't work, then try hitting NO.
Quote from: breeves002 on July 29, 2013, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 29, 2013, 12:28:56 PM
What should I choose to see the MSCAN bus when I connect?
I would just try different combinations. When it asks if you have a switch hit yes. I know you hit IDK before. If that doesn't work, then try hitting NO.
I'll try it in a bit. :)
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 29, 2013, 01:50:48 PM
Quote from: breeves002 on July 29, 2013, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on July 29, 2013, 12:28:56 PM
What should I choose to see the MSCAN bus when I connect?
I would just try different combinations. When it asks if you have a switch hit yes. I know you hit IDK before. If that doesn't work, then try hitting NO.
I'll try it in a bit. :)
It's been a bit!! :P any findings?
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I tried and it couldn't connect BUT 2 things happenned:
1. I said yes I have a switch, it started scanning and my advancetrac light went off in the dash.
2. I tried to clear a code and the ABS light came on.
Freaky!
Ask those Forscan guys if they can help us interject signals into the computer! Look at my AWD service manual thread.
Do the diagnostic thing or whatever it is so I can send it to them.
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So I finally got another ELM and modified it (since selling mine to a member here), and did some more digging!
I found out that you can read your exact tire pressures in PSI through MS CAN and the SJB! My tire pressures were near spot on :) I had them filled to 33PSI cold, they are at 33PSI cold (almost).
I also found out that you can access your PAM module (either MS or HS CAN depending on the car) and see exact distances things are behind you and what sensor is reading it. Can do this with the BLIS radar as well. I'm assuming you can even do it with the ACC radar as well. Pretty cool way to see if the senors are working the way they should. I found after I cleaned the sensors really well they had a much longer range. It went from 255 to like 175 right away and now it goes from 255 to 225 instead then slowly goes down. 255 = 8 feet I think.
Any updates on this? I want to get a new interface but I've been holding off. I have a kiwi wifi and want to get something as fast as possible. Even the delay in the factory tach bugs the hell out of me. I have a new nexus7 2 coming so I think I need a bluetooth model?
OBDLink MX seems to be one of the fastest out right now. Honestly unless you get something wired thats snap on brand you're not looking at anything thats going to be less laggy than your tach.
My OBDLink SX connected to my computer with ScanXL is not very laggy, but again thats a computer with professional software and corded transfer.
No new updates really. Haven't heard back from adelsin about what modules he found!
I was looking through my workshop manual and found this info. I thought you might be interested. Also we were both right, the 13 has a bcm and the 3 networks connect to the DLC (data link connector) located under the instrument panel AND the bcm.
"Gateway Module
The Body Control Module (BCM) and Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC) are the gateway modules. The BCM translates messages on the HS-CAN to the MS-CAN and vice versa. The IPC translates messages on the HS-CAN to the I-CAN and vice versa. This allows a message to be distributed through all three networks. The BCM and IPC are the only modules on this vehicle that have this ability."
There is also a giant list of messages broadcast by each module and the module(s) that receive the message. Let me know if you want it.
Interesting. There is MS, HS, and I CAN.
CAN has been going through the IC since it came out in 04. It's where HS and MS CAN meet up in my car.
Found out about a few more modules today.
The HSWM which is the Heated Steering Wheel Module. Pretty self explanatory, and then the IPM-A or Image processing module A which as far ask I know is for the auto dimming high beams.
The auto wipers may go through there as well.
Figured out what the FCM does too. Central hub for PATS and all the proximity sensors including the buttons on the door handles and keyless entry.
Hi all. Sorry all b/c my english not good.
I have some question for modify a cheap ELM327 clone.
1. Baud rate of MS-CAN is 125k and HS-CAN is 500k. Why we convert 6,14 pin (Chip ELM clone) to 3,1 (DLC connect to vehicle) run diagnostic MS-CAN module good? Because of it is different baud rate. I think FORSCAN app setting baud rate for ELM327 clone dongle!!!.
2. Dose ELM327 clone have set AT command same ELM327 by elmelectronics.com ? and we can setting baud rate by AT command?
Thank all very much. Have a good day for all.