http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html (http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html)
Interesting. But the article states that "The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give," and then goes on to test the filters at a measly 350 CFM. For a 3.5 EB, you're going to want more like 1000 CFM.
Quote from: hawkeye93 on August 29, 2016, 07:52:51 AM
Interesting. But the article states that "The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give," and then goes on to test the filters at a measly 350 CFM. For a 3.5 EB, you're going to want more like 1000 CFM.
Right but now apply that to dirt ingestion, wouldn't that make the filtration part even worse?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 29, 2016, 09:00:08 AM
Right but now apply that to dirt ingestion, wouldn't that make the filtration part even worse?
Of course. I don't dispute the filtration aspects of the article. But my point is that an OEM/replacement filter MIGHT NOT flow enough for the engine, especially a modified one. This article states that they do, but they didn't test them with enough flow. Maybe 350 CFM is enough for a little Nissan motor, but it's not enough for my EcoBoost. Most of us here are interested in getting more out of our cars than the conservative manufacturers release it with. You're always going to get some dirt, you just have to decide how much is too much. Most of it will go out the exhaust anyway.
FWIW, I don't use a K&N filter. I use an AEM. :)
Well said hawkeye! In short, a solid piece of metal will allow zero dirt to flow through it...or any air. No filter will allow 100% dirt and 100% air.
Between those two things is a sliding scale between dirt trapping and air flow. Paper filters trap more dirt than gauze type filters at the expense of also flowing less air.
Given enough underhood space, it's hard to beat a giant paper filter with tons of surface area. If you're working within the confines of the stock airbox and want more flow, there's not much you can do except switch to a gauze style filter of your choice and accept that it's going to pass more dirt.
Generally speaking, the worst option is to switch to a small gauze filter. Those that remove their airbox and install a small K&N type cone filter have gone two steps back.
Used oil filters for years and can attest to the extra dirt getting sucked in even when properly oiled, after enough time youll notice a fine layer of dirt accumulating inside the intake piping and this was on a v6 NA pushrod.
For the EB I tried to split the difference going for a paper style cone filter to maximize surface area and filtration.
Quote from: hawkeye93 on August 29, 2016, 09:19:11 AM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 29, 2016, 09:00:08 AM
Right but now apply that to dirt ingestion, wouldn't that make the filtration part even worse?
Of course. I don't dispute the filtration aspects of the article. But my point is that an OEM/replacement filter MIGHT NOT flow enough for the engine, especially a modified one. This article states that they do, but they didn't test them with enough flow. Maybe 350 CFM is enough for a little Nissan motor, but it's not enough for my EcoBoost. Most of us here are interested in getting more out of our cars than the conservative manufacturers release it with. You're always going to get some dirt, you just have to decide how much is too much. Most of it will go out the exhaust anyway.
FWIW, I don't use a K&N filter. I use an AEM. :)
Depending on the year the Duramax platform used for the test puts down 500-765 lb ft of torque.
If paper flows enough for the Duramax I'm not concerned with flow on the Ecoboost.
The difference in initial flow is .06 PSI.
My tune is hotter than AJP's which put down 527 wtq and I'm definitely putting the paper filter back in. I suspect there will be no discernible difference in butt dyno or data log. If I can make it to the track Thursday we will have some numbers to compare.
I was reading on Bitog last night and someone commented that all it takes is 1 tsp of dirt to kill an engine.
Right or wrong that gave me pause and I'm going to do a little investigating.
There is a whole section on the Bitog forums regarding air filtration if anybody wants to look into the matter further.
Not EB but interesting read, http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-external-engine/978615-cfm-question.html
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
Dirt = good for children. Dirt = BAAAADDDDD for engines.
Looking back over my datalogs, I used up about 150 cfm of air under moderate-heavy acceleration getting up to 55 from a standing start.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/4496-500-hp-na-chevrolet-lt1-engine/ (http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/4496-500-hp-na-chevrolet-lt1-engine/)
http://www.r2cperformance.com/products/engine_air_filter_testing.aspx (http://www.r2cperformance.com/products/engine_air_filter_testing.aspx)
Wonder if we should just start putting in MERV 13 filters LOL! Do you think Ford/factory filters are any different from the Motorcraft counterparts? Some say there's a difference in the number of pleats & hence filtering, for example.
I swapped out my K&N for a Green filter which seems to fit better and has larger pleats. http://www.greenfilterusa.com
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
Here is a good video from Mackuloko. Z [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJKlb61_kXU#]! No longer available] (http://[/url)! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJKlb61_kXU#)
Quote from: slurppie on August 30, 2016, 08:39:09 AM
I swapped out my K&N for a Green filter which seems to fit better and has larger pleats. http://www.greenfilterusa.com (http://www.greenfilterusa.com)
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
Slurppie, your sig and your "sent from" message had me chuckling pretty hard at work! But I've also heard great things about Green filters, I've got a buddy of mine who swears by them, and I trust his judgement.
I found an article where they used Green filters on the EB for the Daytona testing/race. Granted they probably tore the engine down after the checkered flag but i hope there was some good reason they chose that filter (other than Green offering $$$ for Ford to use them).
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
According to this, Green filters flow better than K&Ns ?
Did they sabotage this test xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7fSPvI8bY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7fSPvI8bY)
K&N and Green comparison, (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/e7c19e5021eb6e1e78fb2821e411094a.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/dd8bc19f1001f23fc26d84ff5b2a20fd.jpg)(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/7d800dacd0e26df1e99615a630b6ab1f.jpg)
Not sure why my images are reversed but the Green filter is the thicker one in the middle picture.
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
They appear to have a very similar number of pleats. Thickness is about 25% more for the Green?
Sounds about right. I can measure tomorrow if need be. I think the K&N has more pleats per inch where as the Green has larger pleats so its probably a wash on total surface area.
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
http://www.greenfilterusa.com/features-and-benefits.php (http://www.greenfilterusa.com/features-and-benefits.php)
Deep pleats in the double-layered cotton create a 10-15% increase in filtration surface. This increase allows a greater volume of air to move more freely into your engine cylinders while maintaining superior filtration. Our specially designed cotton filter traps particles as small as 5 microns."
Besides the 5 micron claim I really don't see much info about the filters most important job, filtration.
I don't understand the clams of higher flow with better fuel economy. If I have more air at any given throttle position the ECM is going to add fuel to hit my AFR target. Right? Or am I missing something?
r2c performance...still reading about their tech but this is looking like a possible option. If it filters as well as they claim this would pair well with an Mdesign intake. I wonder if they will sell it with a no filter option?
http://www.r2cperformance.com/black-hex-series-conical-filters.aspx (http://www.r2cperformance.com/black-hex-series-conical-filters.aspx)
http://www.r2cperformance.com/technology/r2c_filter_technology.aspx (http://www.r2cperformance.com/technology/r2c_filter_technology.aspx)
Another very promising option would be the Donaldson Powercore but that would require a custom mounting solution.
http://www.donaldsonoemfiltration.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/059806.pdf (http://www.donaldsonoemfiltration.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/059806.pdf)
"f I have more air at any given throttle position the ECM is going to add fuel to hit my AFR target. Right? Or am I missing something?"
I think you're right to a certain extent, i think the school of thought is, more air = more power, which means you need less throttle to get the same cruising speed which lowers MPG.
My cousin, who builds old carb chev engines once told me - Gasoline doesn't make the power, the AIR does.
Having said that, you are correct, wouldn't more air mean the ECM would need to adjust to add more fuel? So we are back at square 1 with power / economy
Fuel economy would be affected by trans gear ratios and engine speeds required to achieve any given power level, I'd think. The PCM does need to understand the airflow range it can expect to enter the system though, to be able to cope with the fueling needs.
Hiflow, hi filtration blah blah blah. Found a compromise, just need someone to fab an airbox.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160831/438c91b4f7c1a6b8e9d12e5d06c5b1ce.jpg)
sent from my speak n' spell using tin cans and string
Here you go 1000CFM rated
http://hydrobuilder.com/intake-filter-10-x-16-1000-cfm.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=701285&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgJq-BRCFqcLW8_DU9agBEiQAz8KohzdvFOf6CE1I08oIr4QdL3_6UMFf1L0AQ0N_2NseSHoaAh8C8P8HAQ (http://hydrobuilder.com/intake-filter-10-x-16-1000-cfm.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=701285&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgJq-BRCFqcLW8_DU9agBEiQAz8KohzdvFOf6CE1I08oIr4QdL3_6UMFf1L0AQ0N_2NseSHoaAh8C8P8HAQ)
Just need to look toward industrial applications and then build a massive hood scoop.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 30, 2016, 10:47:15 PM
http://www.greenfilterusa.com/features-and-benefits.php (http://www.greenfilterusa.com/features-and-benefits.php)
Deep pleats in the double-layered cotton create a 10-15% increase in filtration surface. This increase allows a greater volume of air to move more freely into your engine cylinders while maintaining superior filtration. Our specially designed cotton filter traps particles as small as 5 microns."
Besides the 5 micron claim I really don't see much info about the filters most important job, filtration.
I don't understand the clams of higher flow with better fuel economy. If I have more air at any given throttle position the ECM is going to add fuel to hit my AFR target. Right? Or am I missing something?
Engine load will be lower getting better gas mileage
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Quote from: AnotherGreenFusion on August 31, 2016, 06:26:00 PM
Here you go 1000CFM rated
http://hydrobuilder.com/intake-filter-10-x-16-1000-cfm.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=701285&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgJq-BRCFqcLW8_DU9agBEiQAz8KohzdvFOf6CE1I08oIr4QdL3_6UMFf1L0AQ0N_2NseSHoaAh8C8P8HAQ (http://hydrobuilder.com/intake-filter-10-x-16-1000-cfm.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=701285&gclid=Cj0KEQjwgJq-BRCFqcLW8_DU9agBEiQAz8KohzdvFOf6CE1I08oIr4QdL3_6UMFf1L0AQ0N_2NseSHoaAh8C8P8HAQ)
Just need to look toward industrial applications and then build a massive hood scoop.
Sounds great to me
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 30, 2016, 11:00:02 PM
r2c performance...still reading about their tech but this is looking like a possible option. If it filters as well as they claim this would pair well with an Mdesign intake. I wonder if they will sell it with a no filter option?
http://www.r2cperformance.com/black-hex-series-conical-filters.aspx (http://www.r2cperformance.com/black-hex-series-conical-filters.aspx)
http://www.r2cperformance.com/technology/r2c_filter_technology.aspx (http://www.r2cperformance.com/technology/r2c_filter_technology.aspx)
Another very promising option would be the Donaldson Powercore but that would require a custom mounting solution.
http://www.donaldsonoemfiltration.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/059806.pdf (http://www.donaldsonoemfiltration.com/library/files/documents/pdfs/059806.pdf)
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
The OP's link is from the Arlen Spicer test, which I believe was done in 2004 or earlier. The Amsoil used in that test no longer exists in that configuration and has been improved almost a decade ago IIRC... It's still a good read.
The K&N looks to have 40 pleats, while the Green has 35 pleats if I counted correctly. But the Green filter looks like someone who was drunk put it together. The pleats are all misaligned with splotches of polyurethane on some of the pleats, and I can see some mesh being exposed as well. I'm not saying K&N is always great, I've had to return a K&N because there was a hole in the polyurethane that would allow dirt to bypass the cotton.
If you want to see a really thick aftermarket filter, look at the AEM Dry Flow. They make one for the Duratec/SHO. I bought one for my GM LNF stock airbox but it was so thick to the point it was more restrictive than the factory filter (which is unique in its design) because it was so thick and extended too low in the box.
How well does the K&N seal in the stock SHO airbox? I've read reviews complaining about it being too thick/tight, and then some reviews say it goes in smoothly. Any long-term results with the Green filter? How good is it?
I recently purchased a K&N filter and it fit pretty good
How did it fit in your box? I bought 2 recently and none fit properly. They were a tad small.
I'll take a photo of it tonight when i get home and post here
I'm not sure photos would help. I actually measured the airbox, stock paper filter, and the K&N filters. The K&N filters were slightly smaller and I could feel the difference once they were in the airbox as well. That said, it should be *fine* to use but I was not satisfied with the fit or quality. If you want to see a well made filter, look at the AEM or AFE panel filters. The AFE is a bit longer for some reason. I saw one test where the AEM barely flowed better than paper, probably because of its filtration.
If you want to see a filter that is worse than K&N, check out Green Filter. It's like the machine was completely drunk when it rolled the pleats, and the filtration media is worthless on the Green hence why it outflows everything else.
LOL I'm glad I didn't go the Green Filter then, I was tossing up between the two before I finally just got the K&N
The K&N filter as far as I recall, fit snug.
However, My SHO is a 2010 - maybe the air boxes changed a bit in the GEN2 SHOs