For all of your guys running E20 or E30 how do you blend? Do you guys just go off rough math or do any of you guys run Analyzing Gauges? If so what brand do you guys recommend??
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I would say almost EVERYONE is using math to get it right.. I don't know anyone running an E gauge.
These engines are knock-limited. That means the PCM will change the timing/spark tables as it sees the need. So no need for a gauge.
Quote from: arrivalblue on February 27, 2018, 07:00:11 AM
For all of your guys running E20 or E30 how do you blend? Do you guys just go off rough math or do any of you guys run Analyzing Gauges? If so what brand do you guys recommend??
I bought a Holley fuel tester (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FTSIEZQ/) off Amazon (really just a test tube with a sticker) to measure the ethanol content from the local gas stations. Then I use an app on my phone, E85 Mix Calculator (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kennethnissel.e85&hl=en), to get the mix I want. I use 18 gallons as the fuel tank capacity, and estimate existing fuel from the fuel gauge. Using 18 gallons rather than 19 seems to provide a more accurate measurement of the existing fuel in the tank, at least on my car. I test the fuel every couple of months, because the ethanol content changes over the course of the year.
I went with a general percentage calculation. I did (size of tank - gallon)/4 to get the amount of gas in the tank at a quarter tank. Then I just filled at 1/4 tank, generally about 3 gallons of E85 and then topped off with shell V-power 93. The first time I put in E85 I put a bit more, after that that 1 gallon in reserve was already a blend so I ignored it in my calculations. Never had an issue running it that way.
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2018, 10:02:39 AM
I went with a general percentage calculation. I did (size of tank - gallon)/4 to get the amount of gas in the tank at a quarter tank. Then I just filled at 1/4 tank, generally about 3 gallons of E85 and then topped off with shell V-power 93. The first time I put in E85 I put a bit more, after that that 1 gallon in reserve was already a blend so I ignored it in my calculations. Never had an issue running it that way.
Hes alive......
Quote from: stealbluesho on February 27, 2018, 11:00:45 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on February 27, 2018, 10:02:39 AM
I went with a general percentage calculation. I did (size of tank - gallon)/4 to get the amount of gas in the tank at a quarter tank. Then I just filled at 1/4 tank, generally about 3 gallons of E85 and then topped off with shell V-power 93. The first time I put in E85 I put a bit more, after that that 1 gallon in reserve was already a blend so I ignored it in my calculations. Never had an issue running it that way.
Hes alive......
Haha yeah, I'm trying to not get one here much cause everytime I do I end up looking at AJPs fusion on E85 and wanting to start down that road on my fusion. Also it makes me think about selling all the SHO parts I had again, rather than holding on to find another SHO which I really don't want to do.
On the E-Blend topic, IIRC brad gave me a general ratio for my mix which also made for pretty quick calculations.
Yea I found this chart I figured would work well. Just thought an analyzer would be a great way to do it. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/431b362a93187ad34ecacf94af5be9e4.jpg)
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This is the gauge kinda thinking about
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/c8dbd1e4d9c929c334eb45c16aeb92b8.jpg)
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Quote from: arrivalblue on February 27, 2018, 06:02:09 PM
This is the gauge kinda thinking about
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/c8dbd1e4d9c929c334eb45c16aeb92b8.jpg)
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To spend almost 400 on a 'flex fuel gauge' I would just save the money and get a flex fuel conversion. I know livernoise has one with their pumps, and IDK if AJP has figured something out in the software yet (or if SCT has made it available). For day to day driving, the general ratio (for instance, my E20 ratio was 3 gal E85 to 12 gal 93) will work just fine, and the car will compensate anyway, based on E content, etc. Even at E20 you have more ethanol than the car expects on the stock tune, and will see benefits. At E30 the results are even better. Save the money on the gauge and put it towards a mod that will get you power, or towards a fuel pump fund to run full E85 at 15psi, or towards going flex fuel so you can use whatever ratio you want.
Even with full e85 it would be helpful to have this gauge instead of having to constantly test the mix. It can vary greatly between stations.
I think this gauge was a good investment because stations do vary. I have had mine on my car well over a year now Ive done lots of data logs so It HELPS to be able to tell your tuner what is in the tank not what you think is in the tank.
Quote from: Blackhawk on March 02, 2018, 11:20:20 AM
Even with full e85 it would be helpful to have this gauge instead of having to constantly test the mix. It can vary greatly between stations.
Quote from: DerricksSho on March 03, 2018, 04:20:41 AM
I think this gauge was a good investment because stations do vary. I have had mine on my car well over a year now Ive done lots of data logs so It HELPS to be able to tell your tuner what is in the tank not what you think is in the tank.
A flex fuel setup uses an ethanol content sensor (probably similar to what is there for the gauge) but actually translates that info to something that the ECU/tune reads, IN REAL TIME. $400 to be able to tell my tuner after the fact, oh btw, were at E75 on this tank, instead of E80 or something like that, not really worth it IMO. It would only help when looking to retune, unless you guys have a plethora of tune files with slightly tweaked stoich targets depending if your blend it +/- a few points of Ethanol concentration.
With regards to a true flex fuel setup however, the stoic target would get modified in real time, and you could even go from the extreme of full E85 to straight 93, or hell maybe even 91, and the tune would adjust to compensate, meaning you would be able to run whatever fuel was available without ever worrying. Cant find E85 on a long road trip, no worries, E85 concentration changed due to season/station, no worries. No need to go back and get a new tune etc.
On a fixed fuel setup in the car, you are limited to changes after the fact, and doing a complete re-tune in terms of download, to account for fuel changes. In that case, IMO the gauge is a paperweight, since you can do the same with a cheap tester at the pump, and you need to be as close to, if not exact, to your previous mix. I guess it helps with keeping a perfect E20/E30/ etc. blend but not worth the cost for something that does not dynamically change the tune.
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 19, 2018, 03:18:41 PM
Quote from: Blackhawk on March 02, 2018, 11:20:20 AM
Even with full e85 it would be helpful to have this gauge instead of having to constantly test the mix. It can vary greatly between stations.
Quote from: DerricksSho on March 03, 2018, 04:20:41 AM
I think this gauge was a good investment because stations do vary. I have had mine on my car well over a year now Ive done lots of data logs so It HELPS to be able to tell your tuner what is in the tank not what you think is in the tank.
On a fixed fuel setup in the car, you are limited to changes after the fact, and doing a complete re-tune in terms of download, to account for fuel changes. In that case, IMO the gauge is a paperweight, since you can do the same with a cheap tester at the pump, and you need to be as close to, if not exact, to your previous mix. I guess it helps with keeping a perfect E20/E30/ etc. blend but not worth the cost for something that does not dynamically change the tune.
It's worth whatever I am willing to pay for piece of mind to make sure my E mix is still close to what it was when I datalogged the tune. I don't want to test my E85 and 93 every time I fill up.
If the tune could change dynamically I would actually be less concerned with making sure my E mix is spot on because the tune would adjust accordingly.
Quote from: Blackhawk on March 19, 2018, 05:25:23 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 19, 2018, 03:18:41 PM
Quote from: Blackhawk on March 02, 2018, 11:20:20 AM
Even with full e85 it would be helpful to have this gauge instead of having to constantly test the mix. It can vary greatly between stations.
Quote from: DerricksSho on March 03, 2018, 04:20:41 AM
I think this gauge was a good investment because stations do vary. I have had mine on my car well over a year now Ive done lots of data logs so It HELPS to be able to tell your tuner what is in the tank not what you think is in the tank.
On a fixed fuel setup in the car, you are limited to changes after the fact, and doing a complete re-tune in terms of download, to account for fuel changes. In that case, IMO the gauge is a paperweight, since you can do the same with a cheap tester at the pump, and you need to be as close to, if not exact, to your previous mix. I guess it helps with keeping a perfect E20/E30/ etc. blend but not worth the cost for something that does not dynamically change the tune.
It's worth whatever I am willing to pay for piece of mind to make sure my E mix is still close to what it was when I datalogged the tune. I don't want to test my E85 and 93 every time I fill up.
If the tune could change dynamically I would actually be less concerned with making sure my E mix is spot on because the tune would adjust accordingly.
Your tune does change dynamically...
Fuel trims
knock sensors
OAR
Temperature compensations
etc...
I assure you having tested pretty much any blend you can think of that being off a little isn't going to cause any issues. All kinds of adaptives in play keeping everything happy and safe assuming your tuner hasn't disabled/altered the factory protections.
I think DerfDog was referring mainly to lambase... our tunes do not change that based on E content...
Quote from: stealbluesho on March 20, 2018, 08:27:27 AM
I think DerfDog was referring mainly to lambase... our tunes do not change that based on E content...
It's been a while since I last looked at what Brad (AJPTurbo) changed for my tune, but I know he adjusted the stoich target a bit, IIRC from 14.7 (pump gas) to 13.9 or so, to account for my E20. I don't remember what parameter that was in the tune, but you are probably correct.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 20, 2018, 01:40:26 AM
Your tune does change dynamically...
Fuel trims
knock sensors
OAR
Temperature compensations
etc...
I assure you having tested pretty much any blend you can think of that being off a little isn't going to cause any issues. All kinds of adaptives in play keeping everything happy and safe assuming your tuner hasn't disabled/altered the factory protections.
As always, you're spot on. Hell, I ran an E20 blend on a completely 93 tune, to check my knock sensors and had no issues doing so. Ford has the car set up to expect E10-15 in stock trim anyway, and a slight variance in E content will be taken care of with adaptives.
For the people running the gauge, again, I have to stress, it is literally these (https://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fuel-Technology-36-E85-Sample/dp/B007ZJ749O (https://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fuel-Technology-36-E85-Sample/dp/B007ZJ749O)) but in a gauge form. I guess if it makes you happy, do whatever you want, but it isn't interfacing with your ECM in any way, so IMO (again MY OPINION) not worth it. I never tested E85, and ran my tune from 20 degrees in Indiana, down to florida where it was 85, running the same basic 3 gallons E85, rest 93, from a 1/4 tank. I saw no real change in behavior that trip, and I KNOW that the E content in the cooler areas was lesser than that in Florida/Georgia due to winter blends.
The point I am trying to make, besides what FoMoCoSHO said, and others as well, is that if you are willing to spend $400 on just a guage, why not spend a little more, and actually do a legit flex fuel setup (which ford SHOULD have done from the start, but left out on the Ecoboost platforms because of limitations of the pump at higher boost levels on straight E85). With a legit flex fuel setup, on top of the normal adaptives, you have something relaying Ethanol content to the ECM, allowing you to put a tank of full E85 in, and then follow the next tank with 93, then a blend, etc. and have your tune adjust even more so.
Quote from: stealbluesho on March 20, 2018, 08:27:27 AM
I think DerfDog was referring mainly to lambase... our tunes do not change that based on E content...
No, it won't change lambse...but that is why we have fuel trims.
Our cars infer 02 content just like flex fuel cars, they are limited by fuel capacity and the trim CEL which can be turned off in the tune.
I could change my stoich to 14.1, turn off the trim CEL, and it would add the fuel needed to hit Lambda 1. Now, this definitely wouldn't be ideal but the car will make sure you hit your fuel target. This system is extremely robust and flexible.