Posts in another thread got me thinking, that is usually foreign and dangerous terrotory so bear with me..
We all know the PTU's on our beloved behemoths are a significant weak link. People in the past have thrown out the idea of banding together to develop a replacement unit, but those dreams always seem to fade away into the sunset as no shop are interested.
Something that might help make a run at replacement development would be to firmly identify the failures. I have a feeling that without information on what is failing, most places will be less than interested in undertaking such a project. The can of worms is just far to large to even entertain the project.
SO, that is my question, beside the base known issue of excessive heat )which can cause a wide range of issues), What exactly is failing on the PTU's most commonly?
I have seen:
- shattered cases
- blown bearings(case flex or heat?)
- disintigrated frictions(heat or sheer workload?)
Is there any one issue that is more common type of failure? My thinking is that if one issue is more common, maybe it will link to other failures and give a shop a target to address?
So lets say case integrity is the primary failure, some explode externally, others flex enough to cause bearing failure.
A fix for that is to tweak the case design, maybe even as simple as a billet steel case with the same internal component layout. Take the flex out of the housing by using a stiffer and more durable material. I for one would not bat an eye if the weight of the PTU jumped by 1/2, if it meant that it was much more durable. Then once you custom make a case, you open up all sorts of possibilities for filtration, cooling etc.
Thoughts?
I am sure the bearings being upgraded along with the case would help immensely along with better cooling and more fluid capacity.
I am not an engineer but, the easiest fix and one I intend to implement is, heat shielding. I am going to try and wrap the down pipes and keep some of the heat off the oil so it doesn't breakdown, turn to sludge. That will make the oil lubricate better and also, cut down on the heat the bearings and gears generate them selves. This is very cheap to do, plus change the oil every 30k as previously discussed in other forums. I can do it myself and do it now. I won't have to wait and spend thousand on a final product, when ever it finally makes Mass production and can be bought. Not saying this is a bad discussion. In fact I'm glad to have a place to talk about it and bounce it off others to get feed back.
Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
Not to hop on the bandwagon but in this case. Amsoil gear lube tests and specs so much better that its a no brainer not to use and should be the first Mod to your PTU from what I have read.
There are other articles out there. I like this one.
http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf (http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf)
I fully agree preventative measures will probably help with most issues. I still hope to spend some time under the car this summer and see if I can devise a way to tap into the sensor and drain ports to make a filter.cooling setup. Just tough to do since it is my DD and I cannot take it off the road for any amount of time to experiment.
Just seems to me that beyond the oil issue, the case may be weak and not able to take power beyond a certain point routinely and reliably.
Quote from: Macgyver on April 20, 2018, 09:15:08 PM
Not to hop on the bandwagon but in this case. Amsoil gear lube tests and specs so much better that its a no brainer not to use and should be the first Mod to your PTU from what I have read.
There are other articles out there. I like this one.
http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf (http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf)
Once again, Amsoil it is. Great article and really covered A LOT, and how much pressure is on metal to metal contact.
im running into a problem right now car goes into a safe mode front wheel drive must be due to heat I posted up thinking it was tire pressure which that might have made it heat up faster. Ive got Royal purple fluid in it may have to look into AmsOil gear lube.
The Quantum Blue gear fluids are pricey but perform well IMHO.
Derrick, it sounds like you have a mechanical issue that probably won't be fixed with fluid.
Sniff around the PTU and see if it smells like propane or natural gas. That's the first clue your fluid is cooked.
How is your tread from front to rear? If the difference gets large enough that can cause PTU unhappiness.
I would agree likely has nothing to do with the RP fluid.
I've used RP religiously throughout my SHO simce the 1st changes YEARS AGO (only exception being the trans fluid) and I haven't had one failure yet to date.
Don't be so quick in dispelling its' (continued) use Derrick.
Not a quick in dispelling by no means ive followed people's builds on these cars and have been around car all my life so I give things a chance plus I turn my own wrenches on my cars. I know we are not allowed that much difference between the back and front. Car only seems to do it once it heats up. I read A post about doing the ATF in the PTU with some gear oil to get the sludge out because mine is bad.
I want to drill and tap for a drain plug as well.
Quote from: DerricksSho on April 23, 2018, 01:41:54 AM
Not a quick in dispelling by no means ive followed people's builds on these cars and have been around car all my life so I give things a chance plus I turn my own wrenches on my cars. I know we are not allowed that much difference between the back and front. Car only seems to do it once it heats up. I read A post about doing the ATF in the PTU with some gear oil to get the sludge out because mine is bad.
I want to drill and tap for a drain plug as well.
Where would the drain plug go? has anyone actually done it?
Quote from: Macgyver on April 20, 2018, 09:15:08 PM
Not to hop on the bandwagon but in this case. Amsoil gear lube tests and specs so much better that its a no brainer not to use and should be the first Mod to your PTU from what I have read.
There are other articles out there. I like this one.
http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf (http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf)
I'd note, published in 2007 by Amsoil.
i think 1 person over on shoforum has done it LOL. IME, Amsoil Severe Gear is heads and shoulders above Mobil1, Valvoline, and other similarly priced brands. It makes the AWD operation effortless. I like it a LOT.
Whether its 2007 or not. ^^^^^^^
Amsoil is still prolly the top gear lube mfgr as well as other products.
Quote from: SHOdded on June 29, 2019, 07:45:40 PM
i think 1 person over on shoforum has done it LOL. IME, Amsoil Severe Gear is heads and shoulders above Mobil1, Valvoline, and other similarly priced brands. It makes the AWD operation effortless. I like it a LOT.
Quote from: Silverback on June 29, 2019, 05:47:56 PM
Quote from: DerricksSho on April 23, 2018, 01:41:54 AM
Not a quick in dispelling by no means ive followed people's builds on these cars and have been around car all my life so I give things a chance plus I turn my own wrenches on my cars. I know we are not allowed that much difference between the back and front. Car only seems to do it once it heats up. I read A post about doing the ATF in the PTU with some gear oil to get the sludge out because mine is bad.
I want to drill and tap for a drain plug as well.
Where would the drain plug go? has anyone actually done it?
I'm still trying to find time to do this , I'll
start a thread once it happens.
Not my pic or measurements, found on edge forum I believe.
I do have my old ptu to practice on first lol.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190630/ca709e7a2d379ee018b230cad59d6598.jpg)
HA:
I Found a place to post, So got my car back from the dealer
(after Three Months) motor out to fix the oil leak, and well i will not go into the total detail now
(it will be a book), on and off for 2 weeks BACK to the DEALER...? after a couple of 100 plus mile an hour runs, put it in the garage, and then the next day into reverse, it locked the car up, Cracked the PTU, yea now i have broken everything except the Drive shaft and rear end.....HA
wait there is still time.... :blowup:
Quote from: irondoor19 on June 30, 2019, 11:58:19 AM
HA:
I Found a place to post, So got my car back from the dealer
(after Thee Months) motor out to fix the oil leak, and well i will not go into the total detail now
(it will be a book), on and off for 2 weeks BACK to the DEALER...? Cracked the PTU,
yea now i have broken everything except the Drive shaft and rear end.....HA
wait there is still time.... :blowup:
DUDE!? Are you sure your not driving my car? :D
Do catted PPE pipes help with slightly lowing heat over stock?
Quote from: MKS Tom on July 09, 2019, 01:35:49 PM
Do catted PPE pipes help with slightly lowing heat over stock?
Not really, but thermal wrapping them does.
All the failures I've seen in the fleet seem to point to cooked out thick fluid. Once the unit starts to fail it's toast. Most likely starts with gear failure and once there's metal in the system and poor lubrication it takes everything with it. Once the bearing integrity is gone-Bang!
I literally had to pick up chunks of mine off the road.
Quote from: 6500rpm on July 28, 2019, 12:49:29 PM
All the failures I've seen in the fleet seem to point to cooked out thick fluid. Once the unit starts to fail it's toast. Most likely starts with gear failure and once there's metal in the system and poor lubrication it takes everything with it. Once the bearing integrity is gone-Bang!
This is what I've been thinking, how many failures
are not fluid related?Which is why I decided to spend the little extra money on a great suction device to make the fluid exchange easier to do more often. Gear oil is cheaper than a new transmission
Quote from: 802SHO on July 29, 2019, 05:24:18 AM
Quote from: 6500rpm on July 28, 2019, 12:49:29 PM
All the failures I've seen in the fleet seem to point to cooked out thick fluid. Once the unit starts to fail it's toast. Most likely starts with gear failure and once there's metal in the system and poor lubrication it takes everything with it. Once the bearing integrity is gone-Bang!
This is what I've been thinking, how many failures are not fluid related?
Which is why I decided to spend the little extra money on a great suction device to make the fluid exchange easier to do more often. Gear oil is cheaper than a new transmission
IMO the faliures of the PTU are a combo of heat and fluid failure. The cats get hot and literally bake the PTU. In turn that cooks the fluid and literally changes the fluid into a thick grease like substance. The thicker substance cannot cool and lubricate the direct drive gears and failure is imminent.
On the liquid cooled units (PP and PI vehicles) I have seen a reduction in PTU failures. On my personal PP SHO, I researched all the records from the one Ford dealership that worked on the car. Previous owner purchased my SHO new at said dealership. Same dealership did all of the maintenance and recall work, and then after 5 years took the SHO back in on trade. In the records the PTU fluid was not changed.
I changed the fluid myself expecting the worst at roughly 55k miles. I was presently surprised with the fluid that came out. It was nothing like other people had claimed to pull from their PTU's. It was still really viscous and not completely black. When strained the metal shavings were minimal in the oil and on the drain plug. Having a liquid cooled PTU is the best thing to have with this set up.
We need to start getting our non PP PTU units cooled
Quote from: 802SHO on July 29, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
We need to start getting our non PP PTU units cooled
I might be wrong, but off the top of my head the PP and PI PTU are different because of the coolant capabilities. I do not know if a non PP PTU can be retro-fitted.
I wish I still had the pictures. I changed my 13pp fluid at roughly 58k it was near a solid. It had the consistency of wheel bearing grease almost. I did 2 more changes before 70k and it got much better. There was never a ton of metal. I may have just caught it in time. I agree the heat of the downpipes baking the fluid.
I'm not sure I've been lucky or what. I have 98k on my 11 PP now and I went through my records and realized my PTU fluid was drilled and tapped at 40k. Also, that was the first PTU fluid exchange the car ever had. I'm shocked how fast time has gone and just totally overlooked this critical mistake of mine.
I had taken it to a place that had never done anything like this and was excited to do the work since they had seen PTU failures before. I ran the car at a road course type of event in 90 degree temps just after doing the change and no issues other than heat soak (of course).
In panic, I just finished the fluid change a couple weeks ago and found the fluid still drained (thanks to the tap) but around 8-9 ounces came out. I thought 'my god, I'm one lucky mofo'! Nothing would lead me to believe the fluid was low, or that old while driving it this long.
The fill plug was absolutely coated with sludge, the fluid was dark black and stunk BUT it flowed out the drain plug slowly but surely. Also, the car was cold from sitting over-night on jack stands.
One last really important thing. The shop that did it did not put enough fluid in it when they did the tap and fill. I remember them saying that Ford recommended to put enough in and check it with a bent zip tie (no joke) and put it in the fill hole to check fluid levels. I laughed but my main concern at the time was that its done and I put the best stuff I could find in there, so I was ok with it.
I'm thinking the only reason my PTU is still alive it the quality of the fluid I used. And maybe, just maybe its because I drive in the summer without the big plastic shielding (forgot the technical term) underneath the car. My theory is it might help cool the PTU and down pipes with more turbulent airflow.
Now take a guess which brand of fluid I put back in?
Quote from: shoNoff on July 29, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
I wish I still had the pictures. I changed my 13pp fluid at roughly 58k it was near a solid. It had the consistency of wheel bearing grease almost. I did 2 more changes before 70k and it got much better. There was never a ton of metal. I may have just caught it in time. I agree the heat of the downpipes baking the fluid.
But did it fail? I kid, I kid. This is very interesting to say the least. I am not saying the PP PTU don't fail, I am saying they have a better track record of not failing possibly because of being cooled.
I am working on my DP's this week. The guy that does my fab work became unavailable. So I am going to wrap them up and install them this weekend. I want to safe guard the PTU at all costs.
I'm on the same page with the cooler, the PP capacity is also 17 oz if I recall correctly. Not sure what the non PP capacity is. I pulled about 12 oz from mine through the drain plug, car tilted. Hopefully the other 5 oz was trapped in the cooler. It would be interesting to run it hard and drop the shield off and shoot the cats and ptu with a temp gauge. I'd also be curious if the cat's on the tuned cars run hotter.
Quote from: SM105K on July 29, 2019, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: shoNoff on July 29, 2019, 12:43:29 PM
I wish I still had the pictures. I changed my 13pp fluid at roughly 58k it was near a solid. It had the consistency of wheel bearing grease almost. I did 2 more changes before 70k and it got much better. There was never a ton of metal. I may have just caught it in time. I agree the heat of the downpipes baking the fluid.
But did it fail? I kid, I kid. This is very interesting to say the least. I am not saying the PP PTU don't fail, I am saying they have a better track record of not failing possibly because of being cooled.
I am working on my DP's this week. The guy that does my fab work became unavailable. So I am going to wrap them up and install them this weekend. I want to safe guard the PTU at all costs.
I agree the cooler absolutely helps. I bet if mine didn't have a cooler it would have failed. The only thing I don't really know is how the previous owner treated the car. I can take a wild guess he wasn't up on maintenance. I've had one lubrication failure after the next.
PP & non-PP fluid capacity is the same. The PTU fluid is indirectly cooled by the cooler/coolant, the fluid itself does not (under normal circumstances :) ) leave the PTU.
Interesting. I've been fascinated recently with using co2 to cool the intercooler. I wonder what else can be cooled.
Quote from: 802SHO on July 29, 2019, 04:52:04 PM
Interesting. I've been fascinated recently with using co2 to cool the intercooler. I wonder what else can be cooled.
My experience with CO2 comes from 10 years of playing for a promotional paintball team in the 90's/2000's. The problem is when you dump a lot of CO2 quickly it changes states from a liquid in the tank to a solid (dry ice). With the markers it lead to extreme pressure drops, loss of velocity which is why high pressure nitrogen systems came into play. I don't know if you could have a tank that was big enough to spray any length of time without causing this.
I just quickly read something else entirely about using No2 or Co2 to cool the intercooler. Saying residual gases can get into the intake and Co2 leading to power loss that way or No2 causing an untuned for increase in power.....seems like there's always a snag with these type of things.
Well I think the most cost effective direction to go would be to attack the downpipes with a thermal coating....and then top it off with an exhaust wrap....now I bet that would dramatically reduce the heat and naturally not transfer to the PTU. Better than nothing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE)
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 05:32:02 AM
I just quickly read something else entirely about using No2 or Co2 to cool the intercooler. Saying residual gases can get into the intake and Co2 leading to power loss that way or No2 causing an untuned for increase in power.....seems like there's always a snag with these type of things.
Well I think the most cost effective direction to go would be to attack the downpipes with a thermal coating....and then top it off with an exhaust wrap....now I bet that would dramatically reduce the heat and naturally not transfer to the PTU. Better than nothing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE)
If you want to cool the charge air, you need to use a small shot of nitrous with a dry shot fogger.
If you have the fuel capabilities that will be your best bet. It tanks the intake temp which increases air density, which in turns gives the ability to burn more fuel because of the chemical reaction and increased oxygen levels, and the result more POWA. I would run it directly post turbo. There are numerous disagreements about this regarding pre and post turbo, but I have had success directly POST turbo.
When I first put my blower on my 5.0 Fox Body Mustang, it did not have intercooler. To cool the charge air, we tapped a fogger post SC head with a .026 jet (very small) and the car picked up 58 rear wheel hp.
Quote from: SM105K on July 30, 2019, 10:27:45 AM
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 05:32:02 AM
I just quickly read something else entirely about using No2 or Co2 to cool the intercooler. Saying residual gases can get into the intake and Co2 leading to power loss that way or No2 causing an untuned for increase in power.....seems like there's always a snag with these type of things.
Well I think the most cost effective direction to go would be to attack the downpipes with a thermal coating....and then top it off with an exhaust wrap....now I bet that would dramatically reduce the heat and naturally not transfer to the PTU. Better than nothing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE)
If you want to cool the charge air, you need to use a small shot of nitrous with a dry shot fogger. If you have the fuel capabilities that will be your best bet. It tanks the intake temp which increases air density, which in turns gives the ability to burn more fuel because of the chemical reaction and increased oxygen levels, and the result more POWA. I would run it directly post turbo. There are numerous disagreements about this regarding pre and post turbo, but I have had success directly POST turbo.
When I first put my blower on my 5.0 Fox Body Mustang, it did not have intercooler. To cool the charge air, we tapped a fogger post SC head with a .026 jet (very small) and the car picked up 58 rear wheel hp.
I like this idea. Tiny nozzle and a super cool charge....and by default make a little more powa....how "little" we shall see.
Blacked out Taurus approaches the staging lights at the Dragstrip....purges the No2 lines.....jaws drop
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: SM105K on July 30, 2019, 10:27:45 AM
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 05:32:02 AM
I just quickly read something else entirely about using No2 or Co2 to cool the intercooler. Saying residual gases can get into the intake and Co2 leading to power loss that way or No2 causing an untuned for increase in power.....seems like there's always a snag with these type of things.
Well I think the most cost effective direction to go would be to attack the downpipes with a thermal coating....and then top it off with an exhaust wrap....now I bet that would dramatically reduce the heat and naturally not transfer to the PTU. Better than nothing
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/zyc-10004?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw1f_pBRAEEiwApp0JKJ2hjk7HUe22BqSxfR1agAscarSiw6LUA5Pc0z0TKIKbY1vRBphgbhoCRKUQAvD_BwE)
If you want to cool the charge air, you need to use a small shot of nitrous with a dry shot fogger. If you have the fuel capabilities that will be your best bet. It tanks the intake temp which increases air density, which in turns gives the ability to burn more fuel because of the chemical reaction and increased oxygen levels, and the result more POWA. I would run it directly post turbo. There are numerous disagreements about this regarding pre and post turbo, but I have had success directly POST turbo.
When I first put my blower on my 5.0 Fox Body Mustang, it did not have intercooler. To cool the charge air, we tapped a fogger post SC head with a .026 jet (very small) and the car picked up 58 rear wheel hp.
I like this idea. Tiny nozzle and a super cool charge....and by default make a little more powa....how "little" we shall see.
Blacked out Taurus approaches the staging lights at the Dragstrip....purges the No2 lines.....jaws drop
The great thing about nitrous is the chemical cooling effect that is has. If you have the fuel safe, it creates a cold atmosphere regardless of outside temp. It is really worth its weight in gold in areas where it is stupid hot.....like where I live.
You also have a lot of experience with nitrous too. Your knowledge is much appreciated and I think Nitrous gets a bad rap bc ppl don't do their homework and misuse it...then turn around and talk a bunch of crap about it. Like with methonal. It works extremely well and is relatively safe if it's set up properly and used accordingly.
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 01:10:29 PM
You also have a lot of experience with nitrous too. Your knowledge is much appreciated and I think Nitrous gets a bad rap bc ppl don't do their homework and misuse it...then turn around and talk a bunch of crap about it. Like with methonal. It works extremely well and is relatively safe if it's set up properly and used accordingly.
Nitrous is safe if used properly. I have had it on numerous applications and have never melted down a motor. Worst was a melted ground strap and a blown head gasket, both my fault. I had a 186 hp to the wheel motor, live for years on two kits both pilled at over 150 hp and 175 hp. It was safe.
Before the naysayers come out of the wood work...
We are not using it as a direct power adder. We are using it as a chemical intercooler/atmosphere conditioner. Yes more fuel will need to be added, but for the cooling effects the fuel adage will be minimal. If the car has a proper fuel system in place, there is little to worry about, and the performance gains esp on a FI set up are astounding.
Neigh Neigh Neigh I Say Say Say ... :D
The biggest problem with nitrous is the people using it. They watched Paul walker and think that's how it's supposed to work. I've used it on many small block fords. Never once hurt a motor because of it.
When I hear Nitrous all I think about is living one quarter mile at a time! Ride or Die!
Quote from: 802SHO on July 30, 2019, 03:25:37 PM
When I hear Nitrous all I think about is living one quarter mile at a time! Ride or Die!
In my race against time.....I can't stop....
My favorite