Went and got the SHO dyno'ed tonight.
(http://i.imgur.com/Lix5MWE.jpg)
After talking with the guy, found out they have only had one other SHO in their so he was showing me his numbers vs mine. He wasn't sure who tunehe came in with but he had a tune and downpipes and nothing else, when he came in he was high 350's low 360's. After some adjusting with it a little and he left with just shy of consistently 400awhp. My mid range was a a decent bit higher but i think that was on the tune that he came in with.
One thing i was curious about is that he was asking me if their was anyway to keep it in 3rd when doing the pull from 1500 rpms. We tried S and D using the paddles but everytime you WOT it downshifts unless you're above 3500rpm, he asked because the owner of the previous SHO said he messed around with something in the shift patterns and his dyno run started at 1500 in 3rd gear and never downshifted.
I also asked why there were loops where its dropping torq/hp with those 10rpm increments. He said he could feel those surges while doing the pull and that he sees that even worse on the VW's.
Their was also a puff of black smoke out of the exhaust after each run when he lets off the throttle, im guessing its running rich but im not sure if thats normal or not. All in all its still not to bad.
How big was the "puff" the dragon was belching? DI engines do tend to deposit soot on the exhaust tips as you know. If you aren't in the habit of driving it hard occasionally, could be the dyno was blowing out the "cobwebs".
Anyway, pull codes, see if there's anything set, including for misfires. Check spark plugs and COP boots, if they are fine, might be an injector or two involved. Preliminary thoughts :)
Where are you from kyle?
Was the tuner able to adjust your tune? Or you just did a dyno pull?
Quote from: SHOdded on November 11, 2015, 12:16:49 AM
How big was the "puff" the dragon was belching? DI engines do tend to deposit soot on the exhaust tips as you know. If you aren't in the habit of driving it hard occasionally, could be the dyno was blowing out the "cobwebs".
Anyway, pull codes, see if there's anything set, including for misfires. Check spark plugs and COP boots, if they are fine, might be an injector or two involved. Preliminary thoughts :)
I think it's a decent size but i dont have anything to really compare it to. It definitely gets driven hard on occasion, i had it at the strip just this past saturday so i dont think it would be that.
I'll have to check codes later on. I did check the gap on the front three right when i tuned it and they were all dead on .30 but i didnt get to check the back three till a few weeks ago when i was at a friends house and decided to pull those, i checked gap with his tool and the back three were all around .34-.36 so i regapped them, im curious if maybe his tool was off and not the back three plugs. If his tool was off and i ended up putting to tight of a gap on the plugs would it cause the smoke? Either way i have 6 new plugs coming in today so that should take care of that if it is the issue. What are COP boots?
Here is a video i got of it last night.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsJ8wUFnvdo#)
Quote from: ajpturbo on November 11, 2015, 01:58:42 AM
Where are you from kyle?
Just south of Pittsburgh, PA
Quote from: CroR1 on November 11, 2015, 08:57:48 AM
Was the tuner able to adjust your tune? Or you just did a dyno pull?
He was not as he said he is not familier with tuner the ecoboost platform. The guy that came in with the SHO had his own software(i'm guessing SCT or somthing possibly) and that he was just helping him read the dyno and making suggestions for him to change. Seemed to turn out good by gained about 40awhp, at what type of reliability cost though is the question.
COP = Coil on Plug. What used to be just plain old spark plug wires now have coils embedded in them. Since you didn't mention it, I assume the boots were oilfree? Was there any buildup on the electrodes (sooty/blackish)? If his gapping tool was off, it's possible the gaps are too narrow, causing a rich condition. But that does look like TOO much smoke for just a spark plug issue. It's like riding behind an old diesel-powered car!
Quote from: SHOdded on November 11, 2015, 09:08:36 AM
COP = Coil on Plug. What used to be just plain old spark plug wires now have coils embedded in them. Since you didn't mention it, I assume the boots were oilfree? Was there any buildup on the electrodes (sooty/blackish)? If his gapping tool was off, it's possible the gaps are too narrow, causing a rich condition. But that does look like TOO much smoke for just a spark plug issue. It's like riding behind an old diesel-powered car!
I didnt look to closely at the boots but if there was a good bit of oil i would have noticed but ill be able to check for sure this evening. I should have mentioned i did put downpipes on a few weeks ago, if that makes any difference.
Was a 3rd gear pull correct for this car and also i have seen it mentioned elsewhere that starting higher in the RPM range shows a lower TQ number, is that correct as well?
STD correction with smoothing at 0?
I'd call the dyno shop and have them e-mail you a graph you can actually reference with other dynos. SAE correction and smoothing at 4-5. Should help get rid of the "heart beat" monitor effect.
Quote from: Vortech347 on November 11, 2015, 10:36:32 AM
STD correction with smoothing at 0?
I'd call the dyno shop and have them e-mail you a graph you can actually reference with other dynos. SAE correction and smoothing at 4-5. Should help get rid of the "heart beat" monitor effect.
He did show me the smooth at max 5 and it didnt have the loops anymore but it still had spikes similar to a a heart rate monitor. Unfortunately i didnt get a print out of that one.
It sounds like you have non-catted DP on your SHO ,how many miles on her??. Check to see if there are any codes set. Z
Haha ....kyle did you go to PRL motorsports in export?!...lol i am the guy you are talking about!
Quote from: ZSHO on November 11, 2015, 10:41:41 AM
It sounds like you have non-catted DP on your SHO ,how many miles on her??. Check to see if there are any codes set. Z
It's a livernois catted DP
Quote from: ajpturbo on November 11, 2015, 10:52:25 AM
Haha ....kyle did you go to PRL motorsports in export?!...lol i am the guy you are talking about!
Well it's a small world isnt it.
So thats a yes?...i rented the dyno. I was going to post some stuff but havent really had time..thats awsome that that u went there becuase i was curious of a couple of my runs...but your pulls look clean and consistent
Ive known denis at prl he's a good dude
Quote from: ajpturbo on November 11, 2015, 11:00:56 AM
So thats a yes?...i rented the dyno. I was going to post some stuff but havent really had time..thats awsome that that u went there becuase i was curious of a couple of my runs...but your pulls look clean and consistent
Ive known denis at prl he's a good dude
Yep, Dennis is who i talked to. Once he asked what i had and i told him, he asked if i knew you and if you referred me. Unfortunately i don't know anyone else with a SHO and that I found PRL just by searching around, and i have seen their GTR run at the track a few times.
Do you know if 3rd gear what the right gear to do the pulls in, its a non PP by the way. Also was there a way to get it to not downshift when in third at WOT or have you changed something that i wouldn't be able to do.
3rd gear is what most people use, tho I believe 4th is actually 1:1 for the SHO. I found this post, which if true, means that on the Dynojet, the gear that is 1:1 should be used for measurements.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?s=b43e47171dcc674f947a8746f9146c12&p=21629411&postcount=3 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?s=b43e47171dcc674f947a8746f9146c12&p=21629411&postcount=3)
Quotethe reason for the dyno in the 1:1 gear ratio is due to the Dynojet. Dynojet mathematically creates a horsepower number based on mass (which is the known weight of the rollers) and accleration (how fast the car is accelerating the known weight).
F=ma
From force (F), we can calculate horsepower.
Dyno the car in 2nd gear, and acceleration (a) goes way up, causing force (F) to go way up.
So by dynoing the car in the gear closest to the 1:1 gear ratio, we eliminate any acceleration advantage or disadvantage caused by the transmission, which gives us unskewed whp numbers (even though Dynojet has a fudge factor in there which makes them skewed anyways and read high).
As for other dynos out there (i.e. Mustang and Dyno Dynamics) - they use a load cell to measure roll force (the amount of force the tire is placing on the roller). Based on roll force and the radius arm going to the load cell, we get roll torque. Based on roll torque and roll speed, we can get vehicle horsepower. Vehicle horsepower and vehicle RPM gives vehicle torque. It doesn't matter what gear you run in on load cell style dynos as they are measuring force, not acceleration. Force does not change from gear to gear.
5th is the 1:1 in these cars.
So 5th is the right gear to be in? This is apparently due to variable transmission losses in each gear in an automatic. Apparently not a factor in manual transmissions.
From caranddriver:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-ford-taurus-sho2010-ford-taurus-sho-ecoboost.pdf (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-ford-taurus-sho2010-ford-taurus-sho-ecoboost.pdf)
Quote from: SHOdded on November 11, 2015, 11:34:46 AM
So 5th is the right gear to be in? This is apparently due to variable transmission losses in each gear in an automatic. Apparently not a factor in manual transmissions.
From caranddriver:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-ford-taurus-sho2010-ford-taurus-sho-ecoboost.pdf (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2010-ford-taurus-sho2010-ford-taurus-sho-ecoboost.pdf)
1:1 is primarily used because it not only yields the least amount of drive train loss but also gives the best sampling/load levels.
I love watching 96-98 4.6 GT's on the dyno. Their pulls took an eternity with all their 170rwhp might. haha
It may depend on the dyno I dunno.....The particular model dynojet that I and Kyle were on was able to have the rollers linked mechanically. Apparently the belt and shaft are really heavy. I tried a run in 4th but ended up doing my runs in 3rd gear. I was not comfortable with the length of time the 4th gear pull took and 5th would've been out of the question.
My 4th gear pull took 17 seconds of WOT and my 3rd gear pull took 10 seconds..I think when you mechanically link the rollers then essentially one roller is dead weight in addition to the belt.
I've done pulls in 5th gear in my civic and mustang with less power and ripped through it in 5th gear...In the SHO on this dyno I couldn't believe how slow it pulled through the gear. Like I was towing something and doing WOT pulls.
Kyle, I have no idea what the software looks like for LMS but since they claim they can do things that other software can't do I'm guessing this will be easy for them...I don't mind helping the community even though this is proprietary information I'm about to give out that I've given a few popular tuners out there. So this is an AJP special freebie.
You need to set "pedal position to command kickdown in SST mode" to 1024
It's in the trans or trans shifting section, I can't remember
That's in SCT software. You will have to ask LMS if there is any such scalar, I don't know
It's not the RPM that caused it to downshift on you....When you nail the throttle in sport mode the throttle counts go up. Stock for that scalar is set to about 500 and when you exceed that it will command a downshift....When you set it to what I said, you effectively never hit the throttle counts to command a downshift...If you were at 2000 rpm and roll on the throttle sometimes that keeps throttle counts low enough to not downshift.
But you have to be in SST not just S mode....So select S mode then tap a paddle to get it in manual mode...That's sst mode...If you change the scalar to what I said but only put it in S mode and floor it, it will still downshift
I love having it this way because when I go manual I can floor it and really feel the low end and midrange without getting a balls to the walls redline downshift
Thanks for the info, I'll have to ask LMS if they are able to do this.
Quote from: ajpturbo on November 11, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
It may depend on the dyno I dunno.....The particular model dynojet that I and Kyle were on was able to have the rollers linked mechanically. Apparently the belt and shaft are really heavy. I tried a run in 4th but ended up doing my runs in 3rd gear. I was not comfortable with the length of time the 4th gear pull took and 5th would've been out of the question.
My 4th gear pull took 17 seconds of WOT and my 3rd gear pull took 10 seconds..I think when you mechanically link the rollers then essentially one roller is dead weight in addition to the belt.
I've done pulls in 5th gear in my civic and mustang with less power and ripped through it in 5th gear...In the SHO on this dyno I couldn't believe how slow it pulled through the gear. Like I was towing something and doing WOT pulls.
SHO's have a really tall final drive and huge overall tire size. Matched up with the AWD turning two drums I can see that taking a bit. As long as you get enough load/sample time that's all that matters. Wonder what gear Torrie and LMS use for their stuff.
Yeah maybe relatively tall final drive but the transmission makes up for that and the large tires. Because looking at my log I hit 90mph in 3rd gear at redline and 114mph in 4th so pretty normal...I have a PP btw
Kyle's had to seem like an eternity with his NON PP
Quote from: ajpturbo on November 11, 2015, 02:27:11 PM
Yeah maybe relatively tall final drive but the transmission makes up for that and the large tires. Because looking at my log I hit 90mph in 3rd gear at redline and 114mph in 4th so pretty normal...I have a PP btw
Kyle's had to seem like an eternity with his NON PP
Honestly i dont feel like it took that long but this was my first time on the dyno so didnt know what to compare it to. Also he only did 3rd gear pulls, no 4th or 5th.
Here is the 2nd pull i believe
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqRzm7o4NMo#)
I do have another pull that was much faster then that one, more like 10-12 seconds.
Well I'm going to guess since you are non PP you get close to 100mph in 3rd maybe more....So I'm guessing your pull was maybe at least 12 seconds....I can tell by how slow the tach swept through 3rd that there was a tremendous load on the car....More than the car's own weight....The tach moved much slower than when driving the car
So wouldn't be comfortable doing close to 20 second WOT pulls while what seemed to be comparable to towing something..
I see videos of FWD and RWD cars do pulls that last less than 8 seconds on the dyno.
Never thought of total time till you mentioned it. Looked at the last video of dynoing my fox (1:1 4th), 1500rpm to 6200 took about 7 seconds. Its got to be that AWD hammering the huge rollers.
Kyle it looked like ur pull was just about 10 seconds and that was from 3500 to 6400 or so...thats pretty long if u ask me
What sort of problems could that cause and was there anything I could have done differently?
Nothing...im just saying i think on that dyno if u did 4th or 5th gear pulls that could be a little tough on the car at your boost levels...based on my logs of the dyno and street wot pulls i think the pulls on that dyno would be like doing wot while towing somthing which i would never do lol
Ive never seen the tach move so slowly like it did on that dyno
I see your signature says you're running 18-20 pounds of boost. Im guessing thats mostly where you're gaining that 40hp on me?
Possibly...i have catless dp's also...i actually did a bone stock pull as far as boost and pit down 350/350..which seemed high to me but my "tuned" pulls seemed to be in line i had a max of 394hp/465 tq...but having other problems...if i could ever sort things out i could imagine 410-420 hp with 500 tq without meth
I think the highest im ever seeing on the torque app for boost is around 13-14 pounds.
Over 400awhp would be awesome for non meth