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E 85

Started by explorergotoluvit, March 09, 2014, 12:00:16 PM

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Livernois Motorsports

As others have mentioned, E85 is not something that should be played with. Just the inconsistency of the fuel alone is reason not to chance it. The problem is there are very few regulations on how E85 is blended and what it is blended with, so you can't trust it's octane level. Proponents of E85 will tell you to use a test strip to check ethanol content, but that's all it tells you, how much ethanol is in it, not what the rest of the stuff is.

WHEN E85 is good it's pretty cool stuff, but that's just the problem, you don't know when it's good or not. This is why, if you notice, there are no flex-fuel cars made that recommend premium fuel. Every Flex Fuel car and truck is designed to run on 87, or E85. Even the OEM's know that E85 cannot be trusted much beyond 87 octane.

We spent a great deal of time developing the calibrations we offer to ensure the most possible power while being reliable. I definitely feel your pain on only having 91, but we did our best to close the gap between the two tunes to those out west and south of us don't miss out on too much of the fun :)

EcoPowerParts

It's consistent for myself and the tens of thousands of other users of it around the country making huge horsepower numbers  this fuel is awesome

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Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

explorergotoluvit

sounds good thanks for responding my tuner is in the mail
2013 explorer sport
LMS tuner stat 160 3 bar magna flow v8 91 map
k&n H&R spring
retrofit FXR bi-xenon projectors done by lightwerkz 
all lights replaced with leds from daytimebrightlites

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 11, 2014, 07:24:36 PM
As others have mentioned, E85 is not something that should be played with. Just the inconsistency of the fuel alone is reason not to chance it. The problem is there are very few regulations on how E85 is blended and what it is blended with, so you can't trust it's octane level. Proponents of E85 will tell you to use a test strip to check ethanol content, but that's all it tells you, how much ethanol is in it, not what the rest of the stuff is.

WHEN E85 is good it's pretty cool stuff, but that's just the problem, you don't know when it's good or not. This is why, if you notice, there are no flex-fuel cars made that recommend premium fuel. Every Flex Fuel car and truck is designed to run on 87, or E85. Even the OEM's know that E85 cannot be trusted much beyond 87 octane.

We spent a great deal of time developing the calibrations we offer to ensure the most possible power while being reliable. I definitely feel your pain on only having 91, but we did our best to close the gap between the two tunes to those out west and south of us don't miss out on too much of the fun :)
While I think the consistency issue was true for many years, I think it's much better now. Find the MSDS sheet for whatever brand you are using and it will provide the needed data. MSDS data is not something you can play fast and loose with and expect to get away with it. The only consistency issue is when they switch blends for cold weather. I just found out it's a hard date, and not real time weather dependent. The car had no issue here, Ford's deductive fueling logic has worked flawlessly so far.

My question is why it can't work in conjunction with a tuned car?

crash712us

Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


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2011 tuxedo black non pp, LMS stage 5, Corsa cat back, LMS down pipes, Airaid, Alky control meth injection, Megan Racing coil overs, EBC rotor&pads, Mobsteel grill, 2013 trans cooler. 403whp 417wtq 12.25 @ 110

EcoPowerParts

#20
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)

It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straight E-85 yes but I'm referring to a blend, in my case 30%.

If my math is right that translates to about 10% extra demand which is what I've seen with trims straight vs blended.

The 2013's have a 10 PSI advantage in the LPFP and on my car translates to 2600-2700 PSI peak FRP at WOT, when dealing with straight 93.

Peak WOT FRP on the corn is 2300-2400, so once again the math seems to translate into real world experience.




EcoPowerParts

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 11, 2014, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straight E-85 yes but I'm referring to a blend, in my case 30%.

If my math is right that translates to about 10% extra demand which is what I've seen with trims straight vs blended.

The 2013's have a 10 PSI advantage in the LPFP and on my car translates to 2600-2700 PSI peak FRP at WOT, when dealing with straight 93.

Peak WOT FRP on the corn is 2300-2400, so once again the math seems to translate into real world experience.




Great resource when mixing:
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 11, 2014, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)

It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.
With my blend I'm at almost 98 octane, and I can't wait till Torrie has his way with it.

Josephm

I will be running a small blend of E85 with Torrie tuning it so we shall see how it handles. Having crap 91 OCT really blows.
12' Flex EB
Unleashed X4
3rd Cat delete

SwampRat

Quote from: Josephm on March 11, 2014, 11:13:29 PM
I will be running a small blend of E85 with Torrie tuning it so we shall see how it handles. Having crap 91 OCT really blows.


I'll be doing the blending  a little more aggressive once I do some data logging and get back with Torrie .

I'm playing it safe right now at about 20% blend with 91 .
2013 SHO  ....  not mine anymore

2021 Edge ST

Livernois Motorsports

guys, this is NOT something to play with. These car's can barely support the power they make once tuned with E10 let alone anything higher.

Look at any true race car that uses E85, what do they use? Either they are using E100 and blending the rest themselves, or they are using VP C85. Talk to any racer with E85 and they will tell you the same thing, they've lost engines due to E85.

It is NOT the magic fuel many would have you believe. and just because someone uses it does NOT make it ok. I am sorry if this isn't what some of you want to hear but that doesn't make it any less true. We care more about the safety and durability of our customer's builds than doing something dangerous just to be different.

Again, there is a huge reason why there are zero cars that are flex fuel that require premium. Don't you think if it were safe the OEM's would do it?

Also, the MSDS doesn't take into account things like fuel degradation. Has anyone here sent out E85 samples for analysis? Have you tested it after 1 week? 2? 4? now do the same for premium. The rate of degradation is staggering.

I guess we will just continue to do things the right way, and I pray no one here has to learn the hard way. At least I know that I am putting out accurate information so people can make an educated decision based on our own research, and direct info from the OEM's. The aftermarket has a bad tendency to just accept someone's opinion, or worse, that someone says it's ok cause it didn't blow up. That is not data, that's luck...

3POINT5

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 11, 2014, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)

It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.

Supersix can fix the cam and intake problem. Check them out. They have all the flow charts and any info you need. If  I were goimg for big power I would call them they specialize in ford v6's...

http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/
2012 Loaded SHO with 5% tint, LMS Stage 4 tune, Custom intake with VTA BOV's. Far from done... More to come very soon...

EcoPowerParts

Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel  car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.

Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.
Mike B | info@ecopowerparts.com
www.ecopowerparts.com -
please use my website for any price quotes and to submit any orders.
Please email me via info@ecopowerparts.com if you have any questions on new or existing orders, PM's via the forum are hard to track your purchase as I can't relate user name to actual name.
https://www.facebook.com/ecopowerparts

Livernois Motorsports

Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 12, 2014, 11:29:41 AM
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel  car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.

Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.

Mike,

We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.

Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).

Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.

With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.

I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.

Dan Millen