Can I run straight e85 in my xsport?
Lots of reading for you to do here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?board=89.0 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?board=89.0)
so what i gather is about 4-5 gallons and thats it?
Quote from: explorergotoluvit on March 09, 2014, 05:59:02 PM
so what i gather is about 4-5 gallons and thats it?
ballpark on around 30% blend with 91 or 93 octane to be safe on 13+ models only .
can i run the 93 map with 91 mix
Are you tuned?
If so, by who?
If so, don't go screwing around without tuner support.
The tune has already put extra requirements on the fuel system and compounding it with E-85 wouldn't be wise.
If you're not tuned? Rephrase your question because I'm not sure what you are asking.
Quote from: explorergotoluvit on March 09, 2014, 06:51:06 PM
can i run the 93 map with 91 mix
I'm guessing you are running a tune and you should probably address that question to your tuner .
tuner is coming livernois
Livernois does not recommend using E85.
really ok i just dont get 93 here so feel like im going to miss out on the 93 4+ map
You'll be fine on the 91 tune. SOCALSHO uses it out in CA and his times were very close to mine when we were both running the Stage 4+.
As much as I would like to run a 93 octane tune, as Dave says, my times are close to his. That's what happens when Californians are too cheap to want to buy the good stuff. Demand and then supply goes down.
I just checked. My 1/8 time was 8.35 vs 8.38 Not even a third of a tenth apart.
k thanks
As others have mentioned, E85 is not something that should be played with. Just the inconsistency of the fuel alone is reason not to chance it. The problem is there are very few regulations on how E85 is blended and what it is blended with, so you can't trust it's octane level. Proponents of E85 will tell you to use a test strip to check ethanol content, but that's all it tells you, how much ethanol is in it, not what the rest of the stuff is.
WHEN E85 is good it's pretty cool stuff, but that's just the problem, you don't know when it's good or not. This is why, if you notice, there are no flex-fuel cars made that recommend premium fuel. Every Flex Fuel car and truck is designed to run on 87, or E85. Even the OEM's know that E85 cannot be trusted much beyond 87 octane.
We spent a great deal of time developing the calibrations we offer to ensure the most possible power while being reliable. I definitely feel your pain on only having 91, but we did our best to close the gap between the two tunes to those out west and south of us don't miss out on too much of the fun :)
It's consistent for myself and the tens of thousands of other users of it around the country making huge horsepower numbers this fuel is awesome
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
sounds good thanks for responding my tuner is in the mail
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 11, 2014, 07:24:36 PM
As others have mentioned, E85 is not something that should be played with. Just the inconsistency of the fuel alone is reason not to chance it. The problem is there are very few regulations on how E85 is blended and what it is blended with, so you can't trust it's octane level. Proponents of E85 will tell you to use a test strip to check ethanol content, but that's all it tells you, how much ethanol is in it, not what the rest of the stuff is.
WHEN E85 is good it's pretty cool stuff, but that's just the problem, you don't know when it's good or not. This is why, if you notice, there are no flex-fuel cars made that recommend premium fuel. Every Flex Fuel car and truck is designed to run on 87, or E85. Even the OEM's know that E85 cannot be trusted much beyond 87 octane.
We spent a great deal of time developing the calibrations we offer to ensure the most possible power while being reliable. I definitely feel your pain on only having 91, but we did our best to close the gap between the two tunes to those out west and south of us don't miss out on too much of the fun :)
While I think the consistency issue was true for many years, I think it's much better now. Find the MSDS sheet for whatever brand you are using and it will provide the needed data. MSDS data is not something you can play fast and loose with and expect to get away with it. The only consistency issue is when they switch blends for cold weather. I just found out it's a hard date, and not real time weather dependent. The car had no issue here, Ford's deductive fueling logic has worked flawlessly so far.
My question is why it can't work in conjunction with a tuned car?
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
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Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)
It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straight E-85 yes but I'm referring to a blend, in my case 30%.
If my math is right that translates to about 10% extra demand which is what I've seen with trims straight vs blended.
The 2013's have a 10 PSI advantage in the LPFP and on my car translates to 2600-2700 PSI peak FRP at WOT, when dealing with straight 93.
Peak WOT FRP on the corn is 2300-2400, so once again the math seems to translate into real world experience.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 11, 2014, 09:13:32 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Straight E-85 yes but I'm referring to a blend, in my case 30%.
If my math is right that translates to about 10% extra demand which is what I've seen with trims straight vs blended.
The 2013's have a 10 PSI advantage in the LPFP and on my car translates to 2600-2700 PSI peak FRP at WOT, when dealing with straight 93.
Peak WOT FRP on the corn is 2300-2400, so once again the math seems to translate into real world experience.
Great resource when mixing:
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html (http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html)
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 11, 2014, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)
It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.
With my blend I'm at almost 98 octane, and I can't wait till Torrie has his way with it.
I will be running a small blend of E85 with Torrie tuning it so we shall see how it handles. Having crap 91 OCT really blows.
Quote from: Josephm on March 11, 2014, 11:13:29 PM
I will be running a small blend of E85 with Torrie tuning it so we shall see how it handles. Having crap 91 OCT really blows.
I'll be doing the blending a little more aggressive once I do some data logging and get back with Torrie .
I'm playing it safe right now at about 20% blend with 91 .
guys, this is NOT something to play with. These car's can barely support the power they make once tuned with E10 let alone anything higher.
Look at any true race car that uses E85, what do they use? Either they are using E100 and blending the rest themselves, or they are using VP C85. Talk to any racer with E85 and they will tell you the same thing, they've lost engines due to E85.
It is NOT the magic fuel many would have you believe. and just because someone uses it does NOT make it ok. I am sorry if this isn't what some of you want to hear but that doesn't make it any less true. We care more about the safety and durability of our customer's builds than doing something dangerous just to be different.
Again, there is a huge reason why there are zero cars that are flex fuel that require premium. Don't you think if it were safe the OEM's would do it?
Also, the MSDS doesn't take into account things like fuel degradation. Has anyone here sent out E85 samples for analysis? Have you tested it after 1 week? 2? 4? now do the same for premium. The rate of degradation is staggering.
I guess we will just continue to do things the right way, and I pray no one here has to learn the hard way. At least I know that I am putting out accurate information so people can make an educated decision based on our own research, and direct info from the OEM's. The aftermarket has a bad tendency to just accept someone's opinion, or worse, that someone says it's ok cause it didn't blow up. That is not data, that's luck...
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 11, 2014, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: crash712us on March 11, 2014, 08:58:25 PM
Cause the cars fuel system isn't capable of suppling extra needed fuel. E85 requires a additional 30% of fuel and stock fuel system can't supply that extra amount of fuel:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Torrie has been doing tunes for E85 mixes, it especially helps here in AZ with our HORRIBLE 91 octane gas.
More power Tuning, Torrie, Ecoinjection and many others are tuning for E85 on the trucks already. Torrie is doing the transverse and I'm trying to get some more guys to participate. Once HP tuners drops it's Ecoboost tuning it will bring a ton more tuners into the game and hopefully some more support.
I wish I had the extra cash to buy another transverse ecoboost (SHO) and play around some more, I tried to make a deal couple weeks ago to trade my kids car in but couldn't come to terms. If I can find one I'll be right back at it with my car.
If only I had the resources that others in the tuning game have, I'd have a 2nd DI pump solution available for you guys, I just don't have the resources to make camshafts and valve covers to accommodate the solution. With dual DI pumps and upgraded in tank pumps we'd be able to run E85 easily or support around 900HP on gas easily.
I need to win the powerball sometime, 300M would let me get it done for you guys easily! :)
It's completely OK that Livernois doesn't support E85 but there's no reason to knock the fuel, just say we don't want to support it. I would put money if Livernois was based in California, Nevada or Arizona they'd be all over the corn.... You guys are so lucky in having 93 octane available, here about 80% FI guys run E85 it's basically a necessity.
Supersix can fix the cam and intake problem. Check them out. They have all the flow charts and any info you need. If I were goimg for big power I would call them they specialize in ford v6's...
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/ (http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/)
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.
Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 12, 2014, 11:29:41 AM
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.
Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.
Mike,
We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.
Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).
Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.
With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.
I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.
Dan Millen
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 12:28:28 PM
Quote from: 4DRHTRD on March 12, 2014, 11:29:41 AM
Let's take a look at some things:
1. We're suggesting an E85 mix with 91 octane or if you have it 93 or heck if you want 100 octane but E85 and 91 mixing.
2. We all know that stock these cars can't run 100% E85, you're actually going to run E30 mix (12 91 octane and 4 E85 actually is E29 - almost 95 octane)
3. These aren't race cars, I don't know why you're referring to them but I do have a 600HP supercharged V8 and previously twin turbo Ecoboost V6 that run on straight E85 from the pump with no issues for long term as well as almost every high HP car around here in Phoenix. Geoff from Full-Race's own Evo makes 4XX HP on 91 and 7XX HP on E85. It works and works well, the car is also his semi-DD.
4. E85 is a great fuel for FI and it's proven on many platforms, pretty much any FI car out there makes more horsepower reliably on E85.
5. What does a flex-fuel car not having to require 91 octane have anything to do with this conversation? The Ecoboost is rated to run on 87 octane as well, should you in my opinion, heck no but can you, sure.
6. E85 has been tested to be good for about a 6 month sitting scenario, here in AZ we don't have the water issues you guys might have back east with the winter cold etc.
Stop saying you're better than everyone else, it's BS.
Quoteguess we will just continue to do things the right way,
You have what you feel is the correct way to approach tuning, which includes only providing a generic canned tune for all customers unless they come for a dyno tune. There are no tune iterations based on log feedback from your customers so you want to stay very safe in your established parameters (I call it a box) that you want to provide for people. If people are outside of those parameters (E85, non-Livernois meth kit, etc etc) you don't want to apply your canned tune to their vehicle.
Other tuners and owners of these vehicles want to do things you don't want to have your tunes applied to, this is fine. Stating that E85 isn't a viable fuel to mix or run is not, it's a proven fuel you just decide not to use it. Heck even Ford used it as a way to get additional octane with a bi-fuel test they did.
How many cars have you tuned recently in your own facility with E85? Have you experimented with it recently? If you're not using it and you won't support it then how can you be an expert on it?
You don't have a leg to stand on as far as background usage, tuning and daily testing just what was relevant about 10+ years ago.
Anybody who has owned an FI car outside of these cars knows it's valid and knows that all the fast/high HP cars run E85 if they have it available.
It's just too bad you guys can't use your incredible resources to provide the additional DI pump and lift pump mods to allow for a plug and play fuel system to support big HP on either gas or E85. Why not work on that instead of disputing what most of us know works and works well.
Mike,
We are not using an opinion that pump grade E85 inferior to gasoline, an OEM Manufacturer (remember we are in detroit) went to one of the largest suppliers of E85 in Michigan and conducted testing. They shared the results and the octane is inferior to 93 OCT gasoline. Period. Our knowledge and respectfully yours is not superior to the OEM. I don't know what else to say. Is it getting better yes, when another round of tests are done and we feel its superior to gasoline we will recommend it. But under no circumstances can we recommend this to any Ecoboost platform to date. For this reason and more importantly see below....Remember I said to date.
Lets just say that pump grade E85 is great fuel (we can agree to disagree).
Can we agree that the current fuel system on the Ecoboost is on the edge? If we can't agree I will be more than happy to give you years of data showing DI fuel pressure problems with the current system.
With a blend of E30 fuel (so 70% gasoline and 30% Ethanol) roughly a bit less ethanol than your recommending you will need 15% or more fuel than gasoline. There is also a few other brake specific problems when you add in turbocharging that I won't get into.
I don't understand why any reputable person or shop can recommend mixing a blend with the Ecoboost considering the current fuel delivery situation.
Dan Millen
Play it safe man ...
Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...
When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.
I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources to develop this .
Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Play it safe man ...
Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...
When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.
I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources to develop this .
The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Play it safe man ...
Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...
When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.
I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources to develop this .
The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.
We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.
http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstudies2009/E-85/E-85%20Final%20Report%20_120609_.pdf (http://www.crcao.org/reports/recentstudies2009/E-85/E-85%20Final%20Report%20_120609_.pdf)
Here is a 2009 E-85 fuel quality survey.
There is definitely quality issues with regards to dry vapor pressure equivalent (DVPE) which refers to the fuels cold starting issues. (This of course will be negated when blended with 70% straight gas)
In all other areas however it seems the industry is doing a good job dealing with all of the alleged "quality issues"
"None of the test results indicate any concern for the quality of the hydrocarbon content of the E85 samples, either from the denaturant added to the original ethanol or the gasoline used to blend with the ethanol to make E85"
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Play it safe man ...
Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...
When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.
I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources to develop this .
The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.
What is the threshold for dangerous FPR in these cars?
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.
Boy, am I glad I am satisfied with 93. No worries here.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.
So then you are working on some type of upgrade fuel delivery system ?
There are many of us that do not care to use methanol injection.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.
When are you (FOMOCO) going to get a tune and start making some real power...? :)
Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.
When are you going to get a tune and start making some real power...? :)
Just waiting on my cutout to come back from Mike/PPE
;)
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:10:18 PM
Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.
When are you going to get a tune and start making some real power...? :)
Just waiting on my cutout to come back from Mike/PPE
;)
Dont need a cutout to run a tune... :0
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
We have plenty that we have seen and also encountered ourselves. At the end of the say we would not risk our customer's engines over something like this. If people don't agree with us that is their right to do so, but that won't change our stance on what we know is right and wrong.
We take great pride in the trust bestowed upon us when we sell, install, or tune something on a customer's car. Part of that is being honest with them about our experiences, knowledge, and opinions. The most unfortunate part is that no one will realize we are right until it costs them an engine. I honestly hope that never happens to anyone in this community, but is the very reason behind why we won't offer it. Race gas tunes? Yes, Meth tunes? Yes, E85 between the fuel system and negatives with the fuel itself just make it unsafe in our opinion. Is there a day that even better regulation coupled with our upgraded fuel system might change that? I hope so, but that day isn't today.
Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
We have posted many times that we are developing a true solution for these cars, I hope you can appreciate that it wasn't the clearest of posts that you made because you had called out injectors specifically. I am also a human being and not perfect so I apologize for that.
So then you are working on some type of upgrade fuel delivery system ?
There are many of us that do not care to use methanol injection.
We have been for some time actually.
Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:10:18 PM
Quote from: Needmoreboost on March 12, 2014, 03:09:23 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:05:59 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/HiFiveRecognized/2014-03-12131131_zpse39812a2.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Nah, I'm good with my inexpensive E-98 blend.
When are you going to get a tune and start making some real power...? :)
Just waiting on my cutout to come back from Mike/PPE
;)
Dont need a cutout to run a tune... :0
I'm a do it all at once type of guy.
Patience is allegedly a virtue.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 03:17:17 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
We have plenty that we have seen and also encountered ourselves. At the end of the say we would not risk our customer's engines over something like this. If people don't agree with us that is their right to do so, but that won't change our stance on what we know is right and wrong.
We take great pride in the trust bestowed upon us when we sell, install, or tune something on a customer's car. Part of that is being honest with them about our experiences, knowledge, and opinions. The most unfortunate part is that no one will realize we are right until it costs them an engine. I honestly hope that never happens to anyone in this community, but is the very reason behind why we won't offer it. Race gas tunes? Yes, Meth tunes? Yes, E85 between the fuel system and negatives with the fuel itself just make it unsafe in our opinion. Is there a day that even better regulation coupled with our upgraded fuel system might change that? I hope so, but that day isn't today.
You didn't even acknowledge the data provided because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:25:06 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 03:17:17 PM
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
I've been waiting for this implosion.
Lots of silliness in here. Is there any data or facts?
Anybody want some E100?
We have plenty that we have seen and also encountered ourselves. At the end of the say we would not risk our customer's engines over something like this. If people don't agree with us that is their right to do so, but that won't change our stance on what we know is right and wrong.
We take great pride in the trust bestowed upon us when we sell, install, or tune something on a customer's car. Part of that is being honest with them about our experiences, knowledge, and opinions. The most unfortunate part is that no one will realize we are right until it costs them an engine. I honestly hope that never happens to anyone in this community, but is the very reason behind why we won't offer it. Race gas tunes? Yes, Meth tunes? Yes, E85 between the fuel system and negatives with the fuel itself just make it unsafe in our opinion. Is there a day that even better regulation coupled with our upgraded fuel system might change that? I hope so, but that day isn't today.
You didn't even acknowledge the data provided because it doesn't fit your narrative.
You'll get there on your own time line .
You documented plenty on this issue from your observation's and links to valid data points and sources .
I've been quiet and followed with interest. Like iHeartGroceries I have looked hard to get facts rather than opinion and appreciate all who have appropriately contributed them and and their opinions. I am ignorant as regards engine safety and E85 personally. That said, I don't want the hassle of blending fuel for a DD and will bow to long term testing, recognizing the proprietary nature of some of the information posted here. Regardless, I made the personal decision to void my warranty with performance mods that have proven safe in the long term because of the cost of these engines. For me.... Thanks to all who choose to experiment with E85... I'll follow your exploits. For now, as far as fueling, I'll go to the pump and run what I pump as time passes (in the warmer months the gas in AZ is E10 anyway). Perhaps at future date.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 03:25:06 PM
You didn't even acknowledge the data provided because it doesn't fit your narrative.
No, I posted what is relevant based on our data collected and viewed here from our testing, we do not rely on someone else's data. Again, we can agree to disagree. You won't convince us to do it, only our own in house testing will do that, just like me telling you not to won't convince you not to.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: SwampRat on March 12, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
Play it safe man ...
Man ... Some folks a just hardheaded and as far as the current fuel delivery situation is concerned evidently he is unaware of the improved system in the 2013+ 3.5EB ...
When DeatschWerks gets there new high flow injectors to market later this year Hopefully we will have a PLUG n Play upgraded fuel pump system.
I agree with 4DR .. its a shame that Livernois is not willing to utilize there resources to develop this .
The LPFP has very little impact on fuel flow. We have tested all kinds of different pressures for the LPFP it had zero impact on the HPFP. The 2010-2014 Cars all use the same HPFP. Also, the injectors aren't the problem either. Putting larger injectors into a system that is losing pressure will only make it lose more pressure and at best bandaid the situation, but based on our testing, won't even do that. This isn't going to be a simple and easy fix for these cars.
I spoke with Dan on the phone and we're going to agree to disagree on this one. I did see a huge difference with dual in tank fuel pumps with a boost referenced return system. My testing and data says otherwise.
If anyone has time to kill we are more than happy to run their car on the dyno and show them the pressure loss and show them how much worse it is on anything more than E10. We're more than happy to devote a few days of our time so that you can see our concerns are valid.
We have tried numerous methods to assist fuel flow on the LPFP side on almost every ecoboost platform at our disposal, it has never effected pressure drop on the HPFP. We've even monitored pressure on the LPFP side and it doesn't drop in correlation with the HPFP pressure drop. This issue is that the HPFP can't keep up with the change in fuel demand so it starts to drain the rail. the HPFP can't keep up so pressure drops.
This offer is to anyone that is running any blend of E85, just call us to set up an appointment and we will show you this condition it's creating.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 06:24:53 PM
If anyone has time to kill we are more than happy to run their car on the dyno and show them the pressure loss and show them how much worse it is on anything more than E10. We're more than happy to devote a few days of our time so that you can see our concerns are valid.
We have tried numerous methods to assist fuel flow on the LPFP side on almost every ecoboost platform at our disposal, it has never effected pressure drop on the HPFP. We've even monitored pressure on the LPFP side and it doesn't drop in correlation with the HPFP pressure drop. This issue is that the HPFP can't keep up with the change in fuel demand so it starts to drain the rail. the HPFP can't keep up so pressure drops.
This offer is to anyone that is running any blend of E85, just call us to set up an appointment and we will show you this condition it's creating.
Could you give some insight as to the RPMs you are seeing this at?
All I've seen in my logs is a linear increase in rail pressure peaking at 2600-2700 on straight 93 and 2300-2400 on the corn. (At 30%)
Also, I'd like to know the specific data you guys log in an attempt to pare down the parameters to maximize Torque's read speed yet get the data needed to figure this out. Right now I'm looking at 18 parameters on a .25 read rate. I can increase that to 1/10th of a second but I'm not sure with that many parameters of the accuracy.
I'm also thinking about logging with Fortran to see where the data lines up with Torque.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 06:44:47 PM
Could you give some insight as to the RPMs you are seeing this at?
All I've seen in my logs is a linear increase in rail pressure peaking at 2600-2700 on straight 93 and 2300-2400 on the corn. (At 30%)
Also, I'd like to know the specific data you guys log in an attempt to pare down the parameters to maximize Torque's read speed yet get the data needed to figure this out. Right now I'm looking at 18 parameters on a .25 read rate. I can increase that to 1/10th of a second but I'm not sure with that many parameters of the accuracy.
I'm also thinking about logging with Fortran to see where the data lines up with Torque.
The problem is is it's not RPM based, it's based on demand. The other issue is the method you are utilizing to log it with. These aftermarket loggers don't look at the right data. We have our own hardware that allows us to datalog exactly what is needed. It also can happen much faster than what you are saying your refresh rate is. I know we have posted in depth about the problems with these aftermarket loggers, but they just don't gather or report the correct information.
We had a customer that swore their car had all kinds of problems because of what these apps reported to him (mind you, never once did it run poorly), so he drove well over 1000miles to come here. When it got here we put it on the dyno, and logged it with our proper setup, and our wideband on the dyno and the data was completely different than what he had and exactly as it should be. We reran it with his hardware and it yet again showed completely different data than our system, then we reverified with ours on the 3rd run and it was perfect.
Unfortunately to properly tune and understand these cars means going deep into the computer and really understanding the logic behind it. This is something that can't be bought unfortunately.
Is that true with all devices such as the itsx and mycal?
Because it has occurred to me that Torque isn't always (never? lol) telling the truth.
I mean, it is a $5.00 app and all.
The Mycal (save for the touch screen for 2010-2012) can't log actually. This was by design as until we can release a logging system that actually logs the right data it's borderline useless. But yes, this goes for every tuner brand out there today. Life would be easier and our development would have cost much less if we could use a commercially available device to log with. However, the plus side is we do it all here on our own cars so we get a huge understanding on how these processors really work.
I'm on the E for tuning side.
For TUNING.
Not the running E, hoping Ford built in some kind of magical mystery tune in the stock ECU tables.
My point was, there's mistruths about ethanol in general here.
To argue about quality and such for ethanol heavy fuels, but ignoring all of the potential quality problems in Super grade is ridiculous.
My photo was just used as a credential.
I'd been asking about this in other threads, before I knew this thread existed. My concern has always been the fueling capacity. It is the same concern that crops up on every forum for every platform, interested in tuning for E. I wish those in the know would post data or proof regarding the upgraded fuel system in the 13+. So far, there's not even agreement on that. So, I'm still wondering where's the data regarding the OE equipment limitations. Hardly anybody runs pure E85 anyway. E30-E50 works fine, stays safe (avoiding gumming issues and such), and produces results. And likely does away entirely with messes like water meth injection.
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Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 07:21:12 PM
The Mycal (save for the touch screen for 2010-2012) can't log actually. This was by design as until we can release a logging system that actually logs the right data it's borderline useless. But yes, this goes for every tuner brand out there today. Life would be easier and our development would have cost much less if we could use a commercially available device to log with. However, the plus side is we do it all here on our own cars so we get a huge understanding on how these processors really work.
Interesting.
Sounds like a void screaming to be filled.
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 07:26:43 PM
I'm on the E for tuning side.
For TUNING.
Not the running E, hoping Ford built in some kind of magical mystery tune in the stock ECU tables.
My point was, there's mistruths about ethanol in general here.
To argue about quality and such for ethanol heavy fuels, but ignoring all of the potential quality problems in Super grade is ridiculous.
My photo was just used as a credential.
I'd been asking about this other other threads, before I knew this thread existed. My concern has always been the fueling capacity. It is the same concern that crops up on every forum for every platform. I wish those in the know would post data or proof regarding the upgraded fuel system in the 13+. So far, there's not even agreement on that. So, I'm still wondering where's the data regarding the limitations. Hardly anybody runs pure E85 anyway. E30-E50 works fine, stays safe (avoiding gumming issues and such), and produces results. And likely does away entirely with messes like water meth injection.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
My info on the LPFP comes straight from a Ford dealership service and parts department.
The dialogue started with the 2103 fuel pump recall as to why the gen 4.1 didn't have it.
In fact I will ask the person involved to post up, he's been a valuable source of info.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 07:30:10 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 12, 2014, 07:21:12 PM
The Mycal (save for the touch screen for 2010-2012) can't log actually. This was by design as until we can release a logging system that actually logs the right data it's borderline useless. But yes, this goes for every tuner brand out there today. Life would be easier and our development would have cost much less if we could use a commercially available device to log with. However, the plus side is we do it all here on our own cars so we get a huge understanding on how these processors really work.
Interesting.
Sounds like a void screaming to be filled.
we've been working on something for years, the problem is that the hardware and the way it works is very different than today's "logging devices" work. When we get it correct, we will be releasing this correct solution, but not until it's 100%
Is the processing architecture the issue?
I'm a little (lot) on the tech crazy side, so any bits of info (hardware, software, logic) is always appreciated.
I assume your logging is built in and tied to your dynojet?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 08:23:09 PM
Is the processing architecture the issue?
I'm a little (lot) on the tech crazy side, so any bits of info (hardware, software, logic) is always appreciated.
I assume your logging is built in and tied to your dynojet?
Actually the logging is done separately by a completely different piece of equipment. Honestly, the specifics are beyond me, I just have seen the data first hand that we collect vs. the commercially available items. After seeing this it's very easy to see the negatives to tuning via logging right now. You are making changes on false data so your changes rarely do what they are intended to. Every once in awhile I am sure luck happens and you change something that makes an improvement, but it's rarely directly from the data.
Quote from: IHeartGroceries on March 12, 2014, 07:26:43 PM
I'm on the E for tuning side.
For TUNING.
Not the running E, hoping Ford built in some kind of magical mystery tune in the stock ECU tables.
My point was, there's mistruths about ethanol in general here.
To argue about quality and such for ethanol heavy fuels, but ignoring all of the potential quality problems in Super grade is ridiculous.
My photo was just used as a credential.
I'd been asking about this in other threads, before I knew this thread existed. My concern has always been the fueling capacity. It is the same concern that crops up on every forum for every platform, interested in tuning for E. I wish those in the know would post data or proof regarding the upgraded fuel system in the 13+. So far, there's not even agreement on that. So, I'm still wondering where's the data regarding the OE equipment limitations. Hardly anybody runs pure E85 anyway. E30-E50 works fine, stays safe (avoiding gumming issues and such), and produces results. And likely does away entirely with messes like water meth injection.
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Regarding your claim of "magical mystery tune"
"In order to maintain proper fuel control, the PCM strategy needs to know the stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio for use in the fuel pulse width equation. On pre-2000 MY flex fuel vehicles, the percent alcohol in the fuel was determined by reading the output of the Flex fuel Sensor. The percent alcohol was stored in a register called Percent Methanol (PM). Although current alcohol-blended fuels only include ethanol, the percent methanol nomenclature has persisted. On 2000 MY and later vehicles, the Flex Fuel Sensor has been deleted and PM is inferred. The strategy
to infer the correct A/F Ratio (AFR) relies on the oxygen sensor input to maintain stoichiometry after vehicle refueling occurs. "
Please note that 2000 + MY are referred to as vehicles, and does not say flex fuel specific, unlike the description of pre 2000. This coupled with Ford's recent approval of e-15, one could infer that this tech is already built in to the ECM.
There is a crapload of Motorcraft info at this link.(PG 62 starts fueling info)
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf (http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/obdsm1202.pdf)
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on March 13, 2014, 07:32:28 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 12, 2014, 08:23:09 PM
Is the processing architecture the issue?
I'm a little (lot) on the tech crazy side, so any bits of info (hardware, software, logic) is always appreciated.
I assume your logging is built in and tied to your dynojet?
Actually the logging is done separately by a completely different piece of equipment. Honestly, the specifics are beyond me, I just have seen the data first hand that we collect vs. the commercially available items. After seeing this it's very easy to see the negatives to tuning via logging right now. You are making changes on false data so your changes rarely do what they are intended to. Every once in awhile I am sure luck happens and you change something that makes an improvement, but it's rarely directly from the data.
Kind of weird to think most tuning on other platforms is E-Tuned. E-Tunes are very popular, and seem to do just fine. I guess that could be the difference between COBB and SCT but i know E-tunes are huge in the Mazdaspeed, Focus ST, Evo, STI even the Mustang crowd
Lucky for us, COBB will be releasing something for the 3.5L EB soon
^^^^ do you know where u read that? i would like to read it big im a big fan of cobb they did my sti
Facebook. I wrote on there wall after they did the 1.6/2.0EB asking why the 3.5 EB got no love and they said it was in devolpment and will be out soon
I asked the same thing... Though months ago. They said it was a no go.... Weird.
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Quote from: thatsmrgimp2u on March 23, 2014, 07:19:31 PM
I asked the same thing... Though months ago. They said it was a no go.... Weird.
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Someone just commented on it today. Hopefully it will be soon they release it
That was me. :)
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