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6 Piston Wilwood UPDATE!!

Started by FiveLeeter918, April 02, 2020, 12:31:55 PM

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StealBlueSho

#15
Quote from: timbo on April 30, 2020, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 02, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?

Depends on the year and which calipers are used.  The Aero 6 (what is designed here) has a caliper that is nearly identical to the stock 2x 47.5mm pistons.  Using the 2013+ cars (or converted 10-12 cars) would yield nearly identical brake feel. 

The 10-12 cars with stock master cylinder could utilize one of the Aero 4 calipers with the larger brake rotors (the piston area equates nearly identical to going from the early to late master cylinder size)

The pad area of the 150mm long pad on the Aero calipers are essentially the same as on the 2013+ stock brakes.

I am very interested in what the price is going to be, but also interested if the possibility of buying just brackets is an option.  Either way, I hope this gets done as it's IMO the way to go.

For those wondering if upgrading to larger rotors is possible...well, it's a radial mount caliper, so just some 1" OD x 7/16" ID spacers will yield however large your heart desires (up to the 15" spec Wilwood advertises).  Just ensure the hat offset is correct.
So I am interested in this analysis...

Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?

Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.

I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.

timbo

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 10:20:01 PM
So I am interested in this analysis...

Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?

Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.

I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.

Not more clamping, but more consistent feel and a more rigid caliper.  The pads are very good as well. 

The 47.5mm pistons create a ~5.49" piston area.  One of the Aero 6 calipers has a 5.4" piston area, so it's minimal change requiring slightly more effort (better feel and modulation).  Might not even be noticed and the difference in "feel" with the pad material and any change in rotors have an affect.

The change in Master Cylinder piston sizing from 1-1/16" (10-12) to the 1-1/8" (13+) increased the area by ~26%.  Taking that into account, by keeping the same ratio, you can change the front calipers on the 10-12 vehicles to an Aero 4 with a ~4.8" Piston area to accomplish the exact same affect as going to a larger master cylinder.  Same caliper body with the same pads.  (if my calculations or even my specs are wrong, please point it out to me.  This is based off a fair amount of research, but could still be wrong)

Could do a similar thing with the Brembo brakes, but the majority of the front Brembo brakes have very tall pads and our rotors do not have very tall friction surfaces.  Radial mounting is the easiest to deal with as there is a lot of adjustability after the creation of the bracket and maintain usability.

The 10-12 brakes are the same size as an equivalent performing vehicle weighing 25% less, so they sucked.  I went through 3 sets of OEM rotors over 1 summer due to overheating.  Even the aftermarket performance ones I finally put on were discolored, but at least didn't fade.  They would complain (groan), but still worked.  The master cylinder was sized too small as well and the later model only made the pedal feel better, not the performance.  The equivalent sized master cylinder is used with 45mm pistons in the 96-04 Mustang and 43mm pistons in the 05-14, so why was a 47.5mm piston used?

That's my .02
2011 SHO PP - Mild mods and 13+ Brakes
2018 Explorer Sport - Stock

StealBlueSho

Quote from: timbo on May 02, 2020, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 10:20:01 PM
So I am interested in this analysis...

Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?

Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.

I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.

Not more clamping, but more consistent feel and a more rigid caliper.  The pads are very good as well. 

The 47.5mm pistons create a ~5.49" piston area.  One of the Aero 6 calipers has a 5.4" piston area, so it's minimal change requiring slightly more effort (better feel and modulation).  Might not even be noticed and the difference in "feel" with the pad material and any change in rotors have an affect.

The change in Master Cylinder piston sizing from 1-1/16" (10-12) to the 1-1/8" (13+) increased the area by ~26%.  Taking that into account, by keeping the same ratio, you can change the front calipers on the 10-12 vehicles to an Aero 4 with a ~4.8" Piston area to accomplish the exact same affect as going to a larger master cylinder.  Same caliper body with the same pads.  (if my calculations or even my specs are wrong, please point it out to me.  This is based off a fair amount of research, but could still be wrong)

Could do a similar thing with the Brembo brakes, but the majority of the front Brembo brakes have very tall pads and our rotors do not have very tall friction surfaces.  Radial mounting is the easiest to deal with as there is a lot of adjustability after the creation of the bracket and maintain usability.

The 10-12 brakes are the same size as an equivalent performing vehicle weighing 25% less, so they sucked.  I went through 3 sets of OEM rotors over 1 summer due to overheating.  Even the aftermarket performance ones I finally put on were discolored, but at least didn't fade.  They would complain (groan), but still worked.  The master cylinder was sized too small as well and the later model only made the pedal feel better, not the performance.  The equivalent sized master cylinder is used with 45mm pistons in the 96-04 Mustang and 43mm pistons in the 05-14, so why was a 47.5mm piston used?

That's my .02
So if I have a 2013+ which I do (2016) then there isn't much difference happening besides a rotor and pad swap? Maybe I am missing something here? I'm not seeing why swapping to willwood helps based on your statement.

I get it, the 2010-2012's had undersized brakes.. I had one.. had terrible experiences at the track even with upgraded rotors/pads...

FiveLeeter918

Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.

I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.

Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.

2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'


I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
F-150, Mustang, Lincoln MKS, Taurus SHO and Ford Flex Tuning

Ortiz Performance Vendor Forum | Find us on Facebook! | Shop Today!

StealBlueSho

Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.

I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.

Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.

2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'


I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!

Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...

Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.

Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.

SM105K

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.

I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.

Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.

2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'


I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!

Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...

Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.

Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.

I disagree.  They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions.  That would be the correct test.  A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.
"M" 2013 SHO PP | AJPTurbo E30 Tune | FS HPFP | Stock IC with Ice Water DIY Sprayer | PPE Downpipes | Custom Magnaflow Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete | Derale Upgraded Trans Cooler | Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts| EPP Noisemaker Eliminator | MSD Coil Over Plugs | SP-542's | UPR Dual Valve Catch Can | K&N Drop In | Power Stop Slotted and Drilled Rotors with Stock PP Pads | H&R Springs  | AVS Flush Deflector | 802SHO Custom Splitter | Duraflex Chin Spoiler | Curva Concept C7's | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber | 411 HP and 546 TQ |

"The Fukus" 2013 Focus ST | Boomba BOV | FSWerks Short Shifter | Power Stop Brakes | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

StealBlueSho

Quote from: SM105K on May 05, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.

I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.

Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.

2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'


I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!

Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...

Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.

Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.

I disagree.  They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions.  That would be the correct test.  A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.

I suggested a track as it's the safest way to conduct these types of test. If there is a paved location where it can be done safely that more replicates real world testing, great.

But you still need the same tires, same day, etc etc... or the test for stopping distance isn't valid...

Also, a stress test would be good too.. how fast does the stopping power deteriorate under repeated abuse such as hot lapping or going down a very windy mountain where you are on and off the brakes a lot...

Just sayin.

SM105K

#22
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: SM105K on May 05, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.

I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.

Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.

2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'


I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!

Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...

Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.

Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.

I disagree.  They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions.  That would be the correct test.  A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.

I suggested a track as it's the safest way to conduct these types of test. If there is a paved location where it can be done safely that more replicates real world testing, great.

But you still need the same tires, same day, etc etc... or the test for stopping distance isn't valid...

Also, a stress test would be good too.. how fast does the stopping power deteriorate under repeated abuse such as hot lapping or going down a very windy mountain where you are on and off the brakes a lot...

Just sayin.

I agree.  The last statement is really profound.  With my Powerstop Brakes and pads I have one good stop from triple digits before my stopping power deteriorates rapidly.  Also in the mountains I have found the limit to my current set up as well.  It also wasn't pronounced as well.  One corner I had brakes, then next corner....incredible fade literally nothing.  I was lucky the corner wasn't a decreasing radius and after there was a good bit of run off. Took about 7 mins of normal driving to get things to somewhat normal.  I even have my shields removed. 
"M" 2013 SHO PP | AJPTurbo E30 Tune | FS HPFP | Stock IC with Ice Water DIY Sprayer | PPE Downpipes | Custom Magnaflow Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete | Derale Upgraded Trans Cooler | Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts| EPP Noisemaker Eliminator | MSD Coil Over Plugs | SP-542's | UPR Dual Valve Catch Can | K&N Drop In | Power Stop Slotted and Drilled Rotors with Stock PP Pads | H&R Springs  | AVS Flush Deflector | 802SHO Custom Splitter | Duraflex Chin Spoiler | Curva Concept C7's | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber | 411 HP and 546 TQ |

"The Fukus" 2013 Focus ST | Boomba BOV | FSWerks Short Shifter | Power Stop Brakes | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber |

StealBlueSho

Still hasn't answered my question... based on the info provided...if this isn't going to provide much additional stopping power for a 2013+ since it already has the bigger MBC....

Is there any benefit beyond the name? I can buy rotors and pads anywhere.

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!