Just wondering if anyone has been running this in their ecobeast's. Coming from the world of Subaru I typically ran German Castrol due it being a true synthetic and that at op. temp it was one of the "thickest" 30 weights in its category. I know M1 Euro recently dropped the GTR spec, but it still seems to be a good choice being PAO/Ester based like the GC. It runs closer to a 30 weight when at temperature which is perfect. Anyone with a better oil understanding can help me out, I would really appreciate it!
Viscosity is really only part of it...the add package can be totally different in euro oils and they can be better but not meet the specs for your engine
The thickest 30 weight?....isnt 30 =30?
Thick is t always better...if too thick then oil pressure can get too high....viscosity will change your oil pressure.
Ideally you want the thinest oil that give proper pressure....most of us will never push a 30 weight oil to get it hot enough to make oil pressure drop
Euro oils are formulated differently, as their requirements are different. It is usually best to stick to US spec oils for US market engines unless the mfr specifies otherwise, or there is a proven track record for using a particular Euro oil in a US spec engine. Yes, German cars like Euro spec oil LOL.
You can certainly experiment, but I would advise a Blackstone Labs analysis on a run on US spec oil vs a run on Euro spec oil, plus your own observations as you drive.
Usually the SAPS is totally different in euro oils....sulphated ash and phosphorus and sulfur.....if you look on those euro oils i dont even think they meet the ford mortorcraft spec.
That doesnt mean its not as good it just means what it means.....meaning it simply doesnt meet the spec...so i would never run an oil that doesnt meet the mfg spec
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 11:13:41 AM
i would never run an oil that doesnt meet the mfg spec
Wait a tick... not to go off topic, but didn't you run Amsoil SS 0W-30? I just bought a case based on the recommendations of this group, and now I'm staring at the Amsoil SS spec sheet and their 5W-30 is the only one that meets the Ford WSS-M2C946-A spec for the 3.5L EB. The 0W-30 technically doesn't meet any Ford spec.
The 0W-30 was pimped pretty hard as superior to 5W-30 in another thread.
Knowing it doesn't meet Ford spec, would you still recommend Amsoil SS 0W-30 over 5W-30?
I guess it goes back to your earlier comment that just because it doesn't meet spec doesn't mean it's bad - it just doesn't meet spec. I'll still plan to use the 0W-30 I bought with some oil analysis along the way.
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Are you sure it doesnt meet the spec?..i thought it did....you may have me there...i think the ad pack is about the same for all the signature series oil but the 0w-30 oil in theory should just all the oil to have proper viscosity in sub zero temps which we may never see
If i had to pick though, id rather choose the oil of the same family but with viscosity that provides the correct oil pressure....the euro oils are a different animal
Dammit miwiau that was going to bug me......i just called amsoil and they dont show on the web page but the 0w-30 meets the ford specifications for the SHO
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Dammit miwiau that was going to bug me......i just called amsoil and they dont show on the web page but the 0w-30 meets the ford specifications for the SHO
Son of a b! I was really looking forward to finally catching you in a lie! LMAO :P
Thanks for following up!! I was going to dig into it, but busy day at work so far.
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With regards to the op's original question, looking in my owner's manual (2013 Explorer), there is a note 2 superscript in the fluids table for oil which states "it is also acceptable to use an engine oil of recommended viscosity grade that displays the API Certification Mark for gasoline engines."
It looks like the Mobile 1 ESP 5-W30 meets API standards, so technically, I believe it's acceptable... Whether or not it's better than the non-Euro formulation or another oil brand/viscosity altogether is beyond my scope of understanding.
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ASTM specs show 30 weight being between 9.3<12.5 mm2/s max viscosity and 40w is 12.5<16.3 I remember correctly, GC is somewhere on the high end of that range for 30w. And the M1 Euro is at a 12.9 which is very low on the 40w. Viscosity @100c difference is not that great.
so 30=30 yes, but of course there is a range in this specification.
My plan was to use GC (0w-30) as i did in the Subaru, but i believe they are getting away from it (at least here in my area). I can only seem to find GC 0w-40 now. GC always met SM and now the 0w-40 meets the new SN API category. That puts it in the GW5 which I believe is the newest ILSAC standard. That is the same specs that Motorcraft meets.
I need to research more about the M1 Euro and see what I can find. Viscosity is not the only part of the equation yes, so that may actually hinder my want to go this route...
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 08:56:47 AM
Viscosity is really only part of it...the add package can be totally different in euro oils and they can be better but not meet the specs for your engine
The thickest 30 weight?....isnt 30 =30?
Thick is t always better...if too thick then oil pressure can get too high....viscosity will change your oil pressure.
Ideally you want the thinest oil that give proper pressure....most of us will never push a 30 weight oil to get it hot enough to make oil pressure drop
Quote from: SHOdded on March 30, 2017, 10:03:31 AM
Euro oils are formulated differently, as their requirements are different. It is usually best to stick to US spec oils for US market engines unless the mfr specifies otherwise, or there is a proven track record for using a particular Euro oil in a US spec engine. Yes, German cars like Euro spec oil LOL.
You can certainly experiment, but I would advise a Blackstone Labs analysis on a run on US spec oil vs a run on Euro spec oil, plus your own observations as you drive.
I understand this. I guess my real goal with this is to see REALLY is there a major difference in composition. I will definitely get a BS labs test done on my current GC I am running. I won't have much to compare it to though :X
I dont think ilsac and api or gl5 have much to do with meeting the spec....you need to see if the oil meets the WSS number that is in your manual
Therein lies the problem with enduser testing. It is a leap of faith of sorts. Why does the mfr specify what they specify? Not only because it's widely availble, but because they have put countless hours into testing it. So when we step outside the lines, we have to make sure we don't step TOO far outside the lines, because we simply do not have the means to perform that same level of testing. Maybe there isn't any significant damage by using a 5W40, or a 0W40 Euro Spec oil in Ecoboost engines. But how are we going to prove it out? Scientific field testing is not going to happen for the vast majority of people.
BUT, we CAN compare oils based on their OVERALL specifications, which is where the ASTM standards come into play. When we look to alter the fluid we choose to go with, we are looking for: better Noack, better HT/HS, better flashpoint etc or any combo of those things. Viscosity is kind of a basic requirement, followed by the additives. Given proper viscosity, will the additives cause harm to the system over a long period of time? Why is ZDDP no longer popular, why is boron used instead? There are legal aspects of course, but engine design has also been altered to run better with modern additives. Lower operating temperatures, tighter clearances, altered seal design, combustion & deposit characteristics, etc.
Similarly transmission fluid, coolant, & gear lube. Many choices ...
BTW, AnotherGreenFusion had had some Blackstone Analysis done on virgin engine oils, if you are interested. That post is somewhere around here.
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6907.msg106169.html#msg106169 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,6907.msg106169.html#msg106169)
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 05:12:08 PM
I dont think ilsac and api or gl5 have much to do with meeting the spec....you need to see if the oil meets the WSS number that is in your manual
Agree wholeheartedly, but in my manual, it seems to be pretty loose with the oil specification. It states the recommended WSS spec, but also says in a footnote you can substitute for any API oil of the same recommended viscosity.
If any certified API oil (of the same viscosity) is acceptable from a warranty perspective, it makes me wonder why FoMoCo goes through the trouble of coming up with their own spec. Maybe to sell more Motorcraft fluids?
Good discussion here...
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This loose interpretation is a damn problem for sure. If API is the end all according to it, why is there even so many different variations to use? My manual just states to use XO-5w30-qsp or an equivalent API certified oil.
This may end up just being a circular argument, but still is productive at least my education in the topic.
Quote from: MiWiAu on March 30, 2017, 05:28:22 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 05:12:08 PM
I dont think ilsac and api or gl5 have much to do with meeting the spec....you need to see if the oil meets the WSS number that is in your manual
Agree wholeheartedly, but in my manual, it seems to be pretty loose with the oil specification. It states the recommended WSS spec, but also says in a footnote you can substitute for any API oil of the same recommended viscosity.
If any certified API oil (of the same viscosity) is acceptable from a warranty perspective, it makes me wonder why FoMoCo goes through the trouble of coming up with their own spec. Maybe to sell more Motorcraft fluids?
Good discussion here...
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I thought ford is pretty clear in stating it must meet the wss spec.
Actually many if not all mfg have their own oil specs...when you look on amsoil site they show which of their oils meet the different mfg specs
I think the reason the mfg have their own specs is thats the only way they can garantee the oil is adequate and regardless of what additive packs the particular oil has it will be ok to use.
Look at the charts for the fluid recommendations for your car and there is a ford spec for every one of them
I dont think you are interpreting the recommended fluid correctly...its not the ford spec OR API its both
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 06:12:47 PM
I thought ford is pretty clear in stating it must meet the wss spec.
Actually many if not all mfg have their own oil specs...when you look on amsoil site they show which of their oils meet the different mfg specs
I think the reason the mfg have their own specs is thats the only way they can garantee the oil is adequate and regardless of what additive packs the particular oil has it will be ok to use.
Look at the charts for the fluid recommendations for your car and there is a ford spec for every one of them
I dont think you are interpreting the recommended fluid correctly...its not the ford spec OR API its both
This is what's in my Owner's Manual (2013 Explorer Sport).
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170330/d39212cf1badbae7e90aa9eb0f340534.jpg)
As I read it, it seems like either-or. If it's supposed to be both-and, then their wording sure is crappy.
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Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 06:12:47 PM
I thought ford is pretty clear in stating it must meet the wss spec.
Actually many if not all mfg have their own oil specs...when you look on amsoil site they show which of their oils meet the different mfg specs
I think the reason the mfg have their own specs is thats the only way they can garantee the oil is adequate and regardless of what additive packs the particular oil has it will be ok to use.
Look at the charts for the fluid recommendations for your car and there is a ford spec for every one of them
I dont think you are interpreting the recommended fluid correctly...its not the ford spec OR API its both
That pretty much clears up all my questions actually. I didn't realize that wss-m2c946-a was there.
This means no on the M1 Euro
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf
Quote from: Sugar on March 30, 2017, 06:30:03 PM
That pretty much clears up all my questions actually.
Glad you're clear, because now I'm confused. LOL
Does your manual not have a footnote exception like mine (see post #17)?
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I'd assume like Brad said that it is both API and WAS must be met. Second pic is from engine oil page in maintenance
Quote from: Sugar on March 30, 2017, 06:44:45 PM
I'd assume like Brad said that it is both API and WAS must be met. Second pic is from engine oil page in maintenance
What are notes 5,6,7 (next to "engine oil")? You might need to flip a couple more pages to find the footnote explanations.
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Yeah miwiau id go along with u in saying either or.....i thought I remembered the manual being a little more strict with the wss ford spec but i guess not
I would say then api is more generic and the wss ford spec is specific
There was a time i think when some of the amsoils were not api cerified but it was more because they didnt want to pay for the certification...but that didnt work so well for them becaaus people associated not having the cert with lower grade oil which i believe is wrong so now i think they all are
I'm not too worried for my personal situation based on the oil I choose to use, but it sure would be nice if the man communicated a consistent message. Haha
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5. Use of synthetic or synthetic blend isn't mandatory. Only use fluid that meets Ford specs. Motor oils of the recommended viscosity grade that meet API SN requirements and display the API cert mark for gas engines are also acceptable. Do not use oil labeled with API SN service category unless the label also displays the API cert mark.
6 just says about ALL cert mark conforms to current standards.
7 says don't use oil additives
Quote from: MiWiAu on March 30, 2017, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: Sugar on March 30, 2017, 06:44:45 PM
I'd assume like Brad said that it is both API and WAS must be met. Second pic is from engine oil page in maintenance
What are notes 5,6,7 (next to "engine oil")? You might need to flip a couple more pages to find the footnote explanations.
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Number 5 makes it sound like either wss or api. I couldn't never be a lawyer...
Quote from: Sugar on March 30, 2017, 07:02:43 PM
Number 5 makes it sound like either wss or api. I couldn't never be a lawyer...
LOL. I love it.
"ONLY use fluid that meets Ford specifications... OR you can also use this other stuff that may or may not meet Ford specifications."
M1 is good stuff, but as pointed out already, the EU formulation is a different breed. You'd PROBABLY be just fine, but a big part of those EU formulations are due to strict emissions. Anecdotally, it seems like you may get superior additives in "US" oils that wouldn't qualify under the EU regulations.
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Right now I have the rest of the GC I had on hand from my Subaru. I'll switch to something else here after this. What intervals are you guys following for engine oil? I'm still reading everything on here figuring out what to change and when...rdu won't be pad, ptu looks shitty. What about atf too?
My preference, from anecdotes,would be Amsoil throughout. But regular fluid changes, and you can use easily available synthetics like Mobil1, Royal Purple, Valvoline etc. If you want to better Amsoil, you may want to look into Quantum Blue from BND Automotive.
Let a Blackstone analysis guide your OCI. And depends on how OCD you are, LOL.
Agree with SHOdded on his comments.
I'm in the process of doing a long term analysis with Blackstone on my Amsoil SS 5W-30. My goal is to safely get to 15K miles, so I can do a once a year service of the oil, PTU, and drain/fill trans.
Maybe I'll go that route too. If your even remotely getting up on 15k that's well worth the money. I been changing 3k just out of habit with GC.
Quote from: Sugar on March 30, 2017, 07:46:14 PM
Maybe I'll go that route too. If your even remotely getting up on 15k that's well worth the money. I been changing 3k just out of habit with GC.
Amsoil claims 25,000mi intervals on their Signature Series for normal conditions and 15,000mi for severe applications (which includes turbocharged). For this first go, I sent in a 5K sample, and I'll send in samples every 2500mi until I get to 15K or i need to change it sooner. I could do a lot of oil changes for the cash I'm spending on analysis, but I'm hoping it will save me in the long run and/or help provide some insight to the community. :)
I've been off topic for a while now (sorry), so I'm going to stop replying to this thread before @ZSHO yells at me. ;)
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 30, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Dammit miwiau that was going to bug me......i just called amsoil and they dont show on the web page but the 0w-30 meets the ford specifications for the SHO
Sorry to drudge up an old post, but I wanted to clear up some potential mis-information. Up until my timing chain recently failed, I was running 0W30 Amsoil SS. After additional research, there seems to be a lot of speculation that the timing chain stretch is somehow cause by oil/oil contamination. Maybe it was my one-time experiment with extended OCI with the Amsoil SS 5W30 that cause irreversible damage, maybe it was the 0W30, maybe it couldn't have been prevented - I don't know - but this experience has caused me to re-evaluate my oil choices moving forward.
Long story short, earlier today I e-mailed Amsoil technical service: "Does Signature Series 0W-30 (AZO) also meet Ford WSS-M2C946-A specification?"
And just received a reply:
Mike,
No, the AZO does not meet that specification however, our Signature Series 5w30, product code ASL does.
Thank you for contacting AMSOIL Technical Services.
Have a great day, and please let me know if you have any further questions.
Nick
Technical Service RepresentativeAfter my $3k repair, I'll be switching back to the 5W30 SS, which meets the Ford spec. For anyone still under warranty consider the AZO evidently does
not meet specification, so oiling related failures may not be covered under warranty when non-spec oil is used.
Cheers!
Everyone has their plans and ideas. This is what my Dad taught me.
Change it sooner than later. Every 6 months and or 5000 miles Max.
Oil is cheap. $30 for a home done synthetic oil change with filter.
There are many high quality oil brands out there far cheaper than Amsoil/Redline etc that will yield the same protection following the change it sooner and often mentality. I understand some people/Fleets cannot follow this.
I use 5w/30 Castrol Magnatek which is testing very well lately online. Usually runs $25 for 5+1 at Wally world.
Oil List. Not too current but with some recent updates.
http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html (http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html)
Quote from: Macgyver on March 22, 2019, 04:24:32 PM
Everyone has their plans and ideas. This is what my Dad taught me.
Change it sooner than later. Every 6 months and or 5000 miles Max.
Oil is cheap. $30 for a home done synthetic oil change with filter.
There are many high quality oil brands out there far cheaper than Amsoil/Redline etc that will yield the same protection following the change it sooner and often mentality. I understand some people/Fleets cannot follow this.
I use 5w/30 Castrol Magnatek which is testing very well lately online. Usually runs $25 for 5+1 at Wally world.
Oil List. Not too current but with some recent updates.
http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html (http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html)
Exactly, I am actually going to switch to the Castrol Magnatec for my next oil change.
Quote from: MiWiAu on March 22, 2019, 03:35:47 PM
After my $3k repair, I'll be switching back to the 5W30 SS, which meets the Ford spec. For anyone still under warranty consider the AZO evidently does not meet specification, so oiling related failures may not be covered under warranty when non-spec oil is used.
Cheers!
Mike, do you remember WHEN you purchased the 0W30 formulation. I believe the pre-Nov 2017 formulation had some ... issues ... with regards to volatility etc. But yeah, if you are going to work that powertrain, you need mfr recommended oil weight at MINIMUM. 0W oils are primarily for fuel economy, some wear, but really if you look at the specs, see what temps your vehicle is most likely to experience. Look at the cold pour point. If you have cushion, stick with 5W. If you really are pushing it, then you would look at 0W, but a premium 0W, if you are, again, work that powertrain.
Quote from: SHOdded on March 22, 2019, 04:42:02 PM
Mike, do you remember WHEN you purchased the 0W30 formulation. I believe the pre-Nov 2017 formulation had some ... issues ... with regards to volatility etc.
Indeed! Looking back at my Amsoil order history, this is what I found:
Case ordered Feb 2017 (~15k miles)
6 qts ordered Jan 2018 (~7500mi)
Case ordered Jun 2018 (~15k miles)
6 qts ordered Mar 2019 (just before timing chain replacement, still have)
So, I would have gone approx 15k miles on pre-Nov 17 0W30 SS, and just under 37.5k miles (tuned) in all on 0W30.
I'm planning to exchange the stuff I just bought. Now that I'm back to stock, I'll just stick with mfg recommended 5W30.
Additionally, I had been going 7500mi between changes, and I think I'll revise that to 5k. Funny thing is looking at the onboard oil monitor, it wouldn't have me changing until a 10k interval. That seems insane, especially on the OEM filter.
Quote from: Macgyver on March 22, 2019, 04:24:32 PM
Everyone has their plans and ideas. This is what my Dad taught me.
Change it sooner than later. Every 6 months and or 5000 miles Max.
Oil is cheap. $30 for a home done synthetic oil change with filter.
You gave me similar (and solid) advice in my oil analysis thread a couple years back as well. I tend to learn the hard way, but it's my own doing. :)