Hey guys,
I went to run my car at the track this weekend (Sunday) expecting to run atleast 12.5 or better possibly. First run out of the gate was a 12.9 so I felt O.K, every subsequent run was in the 13.9-14.5 range, so I figured something was wrong with the car, took a look at the boost gauge, and got some logs - sent to AJP - don't have them with me at work- and it looks like the car was SEVERELY underboosting (ie. 4 psi at WOT).
I checked all of my added vacuum/boost connections due to the Tial BOV, MV-S wastegate, etc. and didnt see an issue.I started the car to let it idle, and heard an air rushing noise on the drivers side, a little near the rear of the engine bay. Took a look at the CAI, and the coupler wasnt sitting on the factory piping, there was a gap, I assumed this was the entirety of the issue. Fixed it, however there is still an air rushing sound. There is another coupler near that area, that is an OEM clamp I have never touched, and I am afraid it may be warped.
Here is a pic from google, (http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/bpd1151/Miscellaneous/013-1.jpg)
The clamp I am concerned about is pictured right behind the hose connector. It seems that part of it is mated to the pipe as a one-piece assembly? however on the end facing the rear, it seems warped, but when putting my hand near it I do not feel any air.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. When I am home from work, I plan to let the car cool off, then jack it up, and double check all of the charge pipe connections that I can.
Edit: added pics of how the CAI was (now fixed) and the coupler I am concerned about. After fixing the CAI connection, I can get to 10-11 psi, but should be seeing closer to 16, or at the very least 14.5 as that is what the boost regulator is set for.
Thanks guys
I would suspect it's coming from the brake booster "check valve."could be your culprit. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on March 06, 2017, 10:35:23 AM
I would suspect it's coming from the brake booster "check valve."could be your culprit. Z
Got a picture of that location? and possible a part number/install instructions?
I'm going to check at the dealer later. Seems if it is that, it should be covered under my powertrain warranty. BUT since the car is modded, per my sig, unless its a super expensive part, or really involved install, probably not worth it to risk having the car in the shop, since I would have to swap downpipes, charge pipes,CAI,MAP, possibly stat, and retune to stock.
I plan to go to the dealer parts department this afternoon. If there is an easy way to check that booster would be great as well.
Thanks Z.
The two gray valves probably have a hair line crack which is causing your issue.
I would also check the plastic ring which could be "split" on intake. Z
(http://i.imgur.com/VxErkOxh.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/8WkJ63nh.jpg)
That is pretty much right where the sound is coming from. Still odd that I can't get full boost due to that? And the brakes are fine as well, I know when I had a vacuum leak on the brake booster line previously I had like 5% brake functionality.
I'll go by the auto parts or the dealer this afternoon and grab the check valve just to be safe.
I dont think that line would bleed enough boost off...im thinking a large charge pipe connection or what about the end tanks of the intercooler....you were severely underboosting and wgdc was sky rocketing trying to achieve the targets....but you exceeded the underboost timer and it dump all boost and wgdc went to 0 i guess to protect itself
I looked at the logs again and you were at around 90% and barely at 5 or so psi...there should be a big release somewhere on the charge side so from compressor outlet and including the intake mani
What about your connection for the gate mod regulator?....i cant remember if you had a welded pipe or used the adhesive...maybe that was miwiau?
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 06, 2017, 11:26:34 AM
I dont think that line would bleed enough boost off...im thinking a large charge pipe connection or what about the end tanks of the intercooler....you were severely underboosting and wgdc was sky rocketing trying to achieve the targets....but you exceeded the underboost timer and it dump all boost and wgdc went to 0 i guess to protect itself
I looked at the logs again and you were at around 90% and barely at 5 or so psi...there should be a big release somewhere on the charge side so from compressor outlet and including the intake mani
What about your connection for the gate mod regulator?....i cant remember if you had a welded pipe or used the adhesive...maybe that was miwiau?
Mine is welded, I have a piece of hump hose between the welded flange on the regulator mod, and the outlet on the charge pipes. That is tight.
Based on where the sound is coming from, I would think it either is an intercooler connection, or right at the rear turbo. Its driver side, and sounds like its from the back. I'll double check the booster just in case, but it seems much to small to be still causing a 5psi loss - I am able to get to 10-11PSI at this point, rather than 5.
Worst case scenario, my dad, who has been a mechanic off and on for years, will come visit and help me track it I can't find the issue my self. Hopeing for something simple.
That coupler/U-pipe looks busted and needs replacement. I think Z is on to the trail, we had one other member have an issue with a pipe in that area before IIRC.
Yeah I am thinking the coupler is the are of fault, thats why I posted that third picture. I think the U pipe/coupler in that area got damaged some how, and shifted back, and due to the shift back thats why the CAI got loose as well.
I can shift it even with the clamp all the way down. I'll have to get a part number or part from the dealer and replace it if possible. IDK if that coupler is part of the piping or separate.
Seems like it is split where I posted the pic, as it has a flap like opening on it.
On a side note- Called Airaid and told them that my CAI had been sitting loose, and I feared that the coupler had been warped. They sent one out free of charge. So far both times I have called them about a part I needed, they have sent a replacement free of charge, so definitely good service on their end.
You can take off all the compressor inlet piping from the cai to the turbos and that wont make you lose boost.....it has to be from the compressor outlets to the intake manifold
Airaid :thumb:
Funny to see an old pic of my engine bay still floating around out there.
Gotta love Google. Lol
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Quote from: bpd1151 on March 06, 2017, 01:47:42 PM
Funny to see an old pic of my engine bay still floating around out there.
Gotta love Google. Lol
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I was like 99% sure it was yours due to the carbon fiber cover, so figured I would see if you chimed in, plus it was the correct angle.
Update: I am able to get the car to make a bit more than 4 PSI, but it alwayhs falls back down, ie. it goes to 4 psi, holds, and then spikes a bit, falls down again. The 10-11PSI I was seeing is still possible, but it tappers back down to 4 after a period of time.
My dad is driving up (From florida...I feel terrible he is driving all this way cause my car is being shitty) to help me diagnose. I checked all the connections I could, everything seemed tight, I even sprayed a soap and water mixture on the clamps/ connections I could get to, to see if it would bubble, but that did not occur. The issue seems to be comming from the rear turbo connection area, and I am thinking something is loose back there, but its a pain to get to it, and I have a lot going on for work.
Hopefully with the help of my dad we can find it and fix it.
Have you verified both of your BOV's are functioning as designed?
The symptoms you've described are nearly identical to my own experiences when (one of the two) OEM BOV's crapped out on me.
Worth an inspection at the least, as they're not that difficult to R&R.
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Did you mess with the lines that go to the EBC or to the turbo wastegates at all? Wastegate spring pressure is around 4-5psi IIRC.
Quote from: bpd1151 on March 06, 2017, 04:21:02 PM
Have you verified both of your BOV's are functioning as designed?
The symptoms you've described are nearly identical to my own experiences when (one of the two) OEM BOV's crapped out on me.
Worth an inspection at the least, as they're not that difficult to R&R.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I'm running the Tial Q, no stock BOVs, but I am considering if maybe it is somehow faulty. I can't check it though without someone else to watch it or someone else to rev the car. I may swap back the OEM BOV portion of charge pipe to see if that fixes it.
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 06, 2017, 04:26:18 PM
Did you mess with the lines that go to the EBC or to the turbo wastegates at all? Wastegate spring pressure is around 4-5psi IIRC.
I havent been under the hood since december when I installed the charge pipes and downpipes. Car was running fine till I got it to the track and made a pass.
Well. You could always do the old brake clean trick. Start the car up and while idleing, start spraying around the hot side of the pipes until you hear the motor rev up and then you will find your leak. Just a thought. Can't say I've never done it before. Lol
Quote from: Sabtaj1 on March 06, 2017, 04:54:10 PM
Well. You could always do the old brake clean trick. Start the car up and while idleing, start spraying around the hot side of the pipes until you hear the motor rev up and then you will find your leak. Just a thought. Can't say I've never done it before. Lol
Never mind. Don't do it. Just saw you have the hot pipes. Not good on the paint. LOL.
Quote from: Sabtaj1 on March 06, 2017, 04:56:25 PM
Quote from: Sabtaj1 on March 06, 2017, 04:54:10 PM
Well. You could always do the old brake clean trick. Start the car up and while idleing, start spraying around the hot side of the pipes until you hear the motor rev up and then you will find your leak. Just a thought. Can't say I've never done it before. Lol
Never mind. Don't do it. Just saw you have the hot pipes. Not good on the paint. LOL.
I did basically the same trick using soapy water. Should have seen it bubble if I found the leak, but to no avail.
At this point the two thoughts are either stuck/sticky BOV, or a loose connection near the turbos which I was unable to get to easily while checking.
I'm hoping it is simply a loose connection near the turbos, but if I have to go back to OEM pipes to fix it, I will. Rather have a car that performs and MAY burst a plastic pipe than have a car that cant make boost. Of course if thats the case, I'll figure out what needs to be fixed/replaced to make the EPP pipes work again and go back at it if possible.
just a thought here. . did you go up in elevation to the track where the issue occurred?
before Brad made some adjustments to my tune, if I drove up in elevation significant amount the turbos would max out and couldn't reach desired boost and ECU would default to the mechanical wastegate spring setting of four psi.
IIRC from looking at your logs you still had some room in your WGDC before your turbos are maxed but it might be something to check. do you have a log from your 12.5 pass? if so see how hard your turbos are working in that log.
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Ok. Ps.... the soapy bubble thing isn't gonna work because it's sucking in the throttle body from the intake. So it would just suck it into the motor. That only works for air pushing out. Which it isn't gonna do unless your engine is under load and making boost. Just FYI. Where are you located??
Sooo I had a similar issue, but it was when my vacuum line popped off charge pipe right next to where the front BOV is.
I would boost for a second, then it would just drop off...
SOUNDS like there is a vacuum line off somewhere... if it was a leak I would think your WGDC would be maxed out trying to achieve boost...
I would check all the vacuum lines, and yes, when the vacuum line pops off it sounds like air rushing out.
Quote from: Sabtaj1 on March 06, 2017, 08:02:15 PM
Ok. Ps.... the soapy bubble thing isn't gonna work because it's sucking in the throttle body from the intake. So it would just suck it into the motor. That only works for air pushing out. Which it isn't gonna do unless your engine is under load and making boost. Just FYI. Where are you located??
At least he will have shiny valves?
I can't find any lines that are off, i've checked a whole lot of times :/
Good to know on the soap, but yeah atleast it'll be clean ;)
I ran at the same track before without issues. DA was like 600? Very mild change in elevation but not much.
I'm currently in the midwest, Columbus, IN
Also the issue happened at the track and is persisting. So not just a track condition type of thing.
R there any codes set? just trying to help a fellow member out.
(Check the Waste-gate Solenoid.) Z
I've checked for codes like 7 times, expecting one but none are set. The only code I have had set is for the air temp sensor on the CAI, because I forgot to plug it back in
I would expect a code with what it is doing but no luck :/
I re-read the post, didn't realize AJP noted your wastegate duty cycle was 90% and you were making 5psi.....
IIRC, with the wastegate on the charge pipe, if the springs fail for some reason, it can get stuck open.
Ideally, if you have someone to check with you, you could hold the brakes down hard and put a small load on the engine. This might provide you with enough boost leak noise to assist in pin pointing.
I would think with that much pressure loss you are looking at either the wastegate failure, or one of the charge pipes came loose from its coupler. It may not be visually obvious as when the car is off there is no pressure, so you may need to use the Braille method to feel for loose clamps or pipes on the back side of the engine.
ALSO, they do sell boost leak kits, you plug up the charge pipe and it has a schrader vale on one side... you add pressure with a pump until you hear the leak and locate it.
http://turboboostleaktesters.com
Keep us posted!!
Check to see if the TTurbocharger (Boost Solenoid)actuator is faulty,sticking or if the connector came loose. Z 9K378
(http://i.imgur.com/3NLSGrxh.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/QXVS8ZTh.jpg)
http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=StSqmNhGp52eEoz9txJjsg%3d%3d&id=410445064&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus (http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=StSqmNhGp52eEoz9txJjsg%3d%3d&id=410445064&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=Taurus)
I'm bankin on a loose chargepipe near the rear turbo. Sabtaj1 is kind enough to be sending out a homemade boost leak checking device. I checked all the lines in the area Z circled and didn't see any issues. Brad was also kind enough to send me an E20 tune for my mods but stock bov and no boost regulator so if I can't find anything I'll go to stock charge pipes and load that up and see.
Found a temp solution for you if one of the charge pipes has failed...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170308/e58c50e23204faea9423e09aa3d41ddd.jpg)
In all honesty, any luck?
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 08, 2017, 07:02:26 AM
Found a temp solution for you if one of the charge pipes has failed...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170308/e58c50e23204faea9423e09aa3d41ddd.jpg)
In all honesty, any luck?
LOL! We swapped the noisemaker pipe, and stock BOV pipes back on yesterday. Brad sent me a revision to the tune to turn stock BOVs back on, and using throttle to control boost again. Loaded that up, and it still isn't making full boost.
When we installed the hotpipes, the intake side connection on the rear turbo was extremely loose, which was weird since I had never messed around in that area. I am wondering if that connection, or the intake side front turbo connection is loose. The only part of the EPP hotpipes still on the car, right now, is the silicone coupler from intercooler to front turbo. I will check that piece as well. I left the stock BOV's VTA but didnt seem to have issue. I can say the noise level for stock BOV VTA is MUCH MUCH quieter than the TiAL.
At this point, if there are no loose connections at the turbos, then it may still be a vacuum line issue. I am going to clean up/delete my additions to the vacuum routing up top to rule that out. I'll double check the reference lines on the turbo wastegates as well, as that could be a likely culprit.
I feel as if the boost solenoid had failed, there would be a code, but there are none. This makes me think it is a loose/missing connection somewhere, rather than a faulty solenoid/sensor. Especially at 15K miles on the car. Hoping we can get it sorted out this afternoon, but we shall see.
The wastegate solenoid seem to be working, they were trying their damnedest to achieve commanded boost and eventually shut it down when the underboost timer was hit
Are you sure if you have someones head in the engine and someone brake boosting you cant hear the air?.
I dont think a 1/4" vac line will bleed the boost you are losing.
Again I wouldn't waste your time looking at turbo inlet piping, you can run without those pipes completely and it wont affect boost
Split charge piping? Cracked intercooler or bad coupling from compressor outlet to intake manifold
Perish the thought, but blown turbo maybe?
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 08, 2017, 09:19:21 AM
The wastegate solenoid seem to be working, they were trying their damnedest to achieve commanded boost and eventually shut it down when the underboost timer was hit
Are you sure if you have someones head in the engine and someone brake boosting you cant hear the air?.
I dont think a 1/4" vac line will bleed the boost you are losing.
Again I wouldn't waste your time looking at turbo inlet piping, you can run without those pipes completely and it wont affect boost
Split charge piping? Cracked intercooler or bad coupling from compressor outlet to intake manifold
I will re-try brake boosting and have my dad listen in the engine bay. The front turbo connection I mention that was not changed, is between turbo and intercooler. As for the vacuum lines, I agree that it shouldn't cause this much of a loss of boost, but have seen cars do weird things due to small vacuum leaks. The lines I am mainly concerned of are the reference to the actual turbo wastegates. If that is disconnected, I could see one/both turbos trying to work on spring pressure.
Quote from: hawkeye93 on March 08, 2017, 09:22:44 AM
Perish the thought, but blown turbo maybe?
You get that blasphemy out of here, I'm already scared as hell why its doing this, don't need a $500 dollar OE turbo to be the issue. There was a small amount of oil on the coupler from the rear turbo but I assume its normal, since it didn't seem like much.
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 10:40:58 AM
I will re-try brake boosting and have my dad listen in the engine bay. The front turbo connection I mention that was not changed, is between turbo and intercooler. As for the vacuum lines, I agree that it shouldn't cause this much of a loss of boost, but have seen cars do weird things due to small vacuum leaks. The lines I am mainly concerned of are the reference to the actual turbo wastegates. If that is disconnected, I could see one/both turbos trying to work on spring pressure.
With an IWG if you were leaking from the EBC to the wastegates you would overboost. There wouldn't be any boost to open the wastegates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
If all of your lines are hooked up properly from the manifold to the EBC to the turbos, see if there is anyone local you can borrow an EBC from for a quick test. If you build boost after you swap it in there's your answer. I assume all Ecoboosts share the same 3-port. Maybe someone else can confirm?
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 10:40:58 AMYou get that blasphemy out of here, I'm already scared as hell why its doing this, don't need a $500 dollar OE turbo to be the issue. There was a small amount of oil on the coupler from the rear turbo but I assume its normal, since it didn't seem like much.
I also have oil residue on the rear turbo inlet.
Silly question, under load when it's trying to build boost... it doesn't sound like a super charger does it? High pitch whine?
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 08, 2017, 11:31:07 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 10:40:58 AM
I will re-try brake boosting and have my dad listen in the engine bay. The front turbo connection I mention that was not changed, is between turbo and intercooler. As for the vacuum lines, I agree that it shouldn't cause this much of a loss of boost, but have seen cars do weird things due to small vacuum leaks. The lines I am mainly concerned of are the reference to the actual turbo wastegates. If that is disconnected, I could see one/both turbos trying to work on spring pressure.
With an IWG if you were leaking from the EBC to the wastegates you would overboost. There wouldn't be any boost to open the wastegates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
If all of your lines are hooked up properly from the manifold to the EBC to the turbos, see if there is anyone local you can borrow an EBC from for a quick test. If you build boost after you swap it in there's your answer. I assume all Ecoboosts share the same 3-port. Maybe someone else can confirm?
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 10:40:58 AMYou get that blasphemy out of here, I'm already scared as hell why its doing this, don't need a $500 dollar OE turbo to be the issue. There was a small amount of oil on the coupler from the rear turbo but I assume its normal, since it didn't seem like much.
I also have oil residue on the rear turbo inlet.
It doesnt matter if the wastegate is internal or external but rather if the boost solenoid is "normally open" or " normally closed"
There are 2 main types of solenoids...normally open and normally closed
Ours are normally open type...thats why you overboost if that line to the solenoid pops off
At 0% duty all the air is going through the solenoid because its open type and that opens the gate to keep boost low
If you have FORSCAN you can Definitely monitor for codes and certainly more reliable than Torque or any other gadgets. Z
I'm still Banking on the Solenoid-Wastegate as mentioned on my previous post above especially if your seeing only 5-psi of Boost,best of luck to ya. Z
(http://i.imgur.com/GfSRASbh.jpg)
http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/taurus/bl3z9k378a/2013-year/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/fuel-system-cat/turbo-charger-scat/?part_name=solenoid (http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/taurus/bl3z9k378a/2013-year/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/fuel-system-cat/turbo-charger-scat/?part_name=solenoid)
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 08, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
Silly question, under load when it's trying to build boost... it doesn't sound like a super charger does it? High pitch whine?
No whine that I can notice.Sounds normal in the car under load, just doesn't have the power. I don't think the intercooler is the issue as there is no noise from that area either.
Hopefully I can figure something out tonight, who knows...
Quote from: ZSHO on March 08, 2017, 12:06:13 PM
If you have FORSCAN you can Definitely monitor for codes and certainly more reliable than Torque or any other gadgets. Z
I'm still Banking on the Solenoid as mentioned on my previous post above especially if your seeing 5-psi of Boost,best of luck to ya. Z
(http://i.imgur.com/GfSRASbh.jpg)
http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/taurus/bl3z9k378a/2013-year/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/fuel-system-cat/turbo-charger-scat/?part_name=solenoid (http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/taurus/bl3z9k378a/2013-year/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/fuel-system-cat/turbo-charger-scat/?part_name=solenoid)
I would think my X4 is as reliable or better than FORSCAN (since its a direct connection to the OBDII port, no bluetooth OBDII dongles or anything like that). And as AJP said, car makes up to 10-11 PSI, and tapers off. As such, doesn't seem like the solenoid, along with the lack of codes, but I could be wrong.
Anyway I can diagnost the solenoid without codes, like pulling one of the lines off to see if I make boost or something like that?
I would definitely not do that. These little turbos spool to fast to try and control boost with your foot.
I dont know how you would test it but if you can hear leaks z could be onto something suggesting the solenoid because im not sure how it measures duty cycle....maybe the pid in the log is saying what the ecu wants the solenoid to do and not what is is actually doing
If you pull off that vac line that goes to the solenoid from the charge pipe to test make sure you watch the boost gauge very very close...the tune you have that uses throttle to control boost should step in but how quickly i dont know....it wouldnt take long to make 30 psi in the midrange if the turbo is running wide open with a closed gate
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 08, 2017, 12:25:43 PM
I would definitely not do that. These little turbos spool to fast to try and control boost with your foot.
That's why I asked haha. I know that is one method used to test for other models of car.
Another thing I read, was that in some cars (WRX STI for instance) this type of behavior can occur with a clogged cat. I don't have the two main cats due to my SW Catless pipes, but still have the 3rd cat. However, I feel this is pretty unlikely, since AJP ran the same pipes without issue.
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 08, 2017, 12:28:05 PM
I dont know how you would test it but if you can hear leaks z could be onto something suggesting the solenoid because im not sure how it measures duty cycle....maybe the pid in the log is saying what the ecu wants the solenoid to do and not what is is actually doing
Guess I'll check the local stealership and see how much they want for a solenoid so I can test it. They quoted me $235 for the plastic intake side piping that has the U pipe, and connection from rear turbo to CAI, when I asked about the small rubber connection there. Looks like the part is ~$30 online, but who knows how much they will want...
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 08, 2017, 12:31:34 PM
If you pull off that vac line that goes to the solenoid from the charge pipe to test make sure you watch the boost gauge very very close...the tune you have that uses throttle to control boost should step in but how quickly i dont know....it wouldnt take long to make 30 psi in the midrange if the turbo is running wide open with a closed gate
So, would it be worth testing like that, or try and get another solenoid and swap that instead of risking 30psi?
Update/question time
I took the solenoid connections off the car and blew through the solenoid similar to testing a pcv valve for the boost solenoid z referenced. One of the inlets (from the rear turbo) blows straight through and is audable. The other (front turbo) is completely closed in that condition. No air moves through. This tells me that it isn't most likely the solenoid, as the two turbo inlets are doing opposite actions. Can someone confirm this?
There seem to be no leaks/intercooler issues as well so this hopefully is the issue.
Does your local Ford dealer have the part in stock/shelf.? I guess you can always bring the original part with you for comparison .IDK. Z
BTW Hows the oil psi. ?
Having a Smoke test done could be inconclusive perhaps.!!!
Quote from: ZSHO on March 08, 2017, 10:27:56 PM
Does your local Ford dealer have the part in stock/shelf.? I guess you can always bring the original part with you for comparison .IDK. Z
BTW Hows the oil psi. ?
Having a Smoke test done could be inconclusive perhaps.!!!
Oil pressure seems fine. Engine runs perfect out of boost, and gets pissed when trying to make full boost due to what I assume is the solenoid. I am going to call my local dealer and a few within ~2 hours and see if I can source the solenoid locally and have the car fixed ASAP. If not I'll get it online.
Im going to leave the stock chargepipes on to test, and will go back to EPP pipes after I get it all fixed. Dont want to add more variables.
I wasnt sure what to expect solenoid wise, as I didnt know if it was default to open or default to closed, but since one turbo path is open and the other closed that indicates something is wrong to me, as I feel they both should be the same.
Luckily its literally a 2 minute job, and most of that is drinking a beer at the end to celebrate (ofcouse after test driving since drinking and driving is a no-no).
Hopefully I can source one locally and get it fixed. Sabtaj1 sent a homeade boost leak device for me to use if need be, if the solenoid fixes the issue, I may still do a leak test just to be safe. But shoutout to him for that. And shoutout to you Z and to AJP for continued support.
Shoutout to everyone else for moral support (except that dude that said my turbo could be blown, jk)
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 11:01:49 PM
Shoutout to everyone else for moral support (except that dude that said my turbo could be blown, jk)
Jeez, you try to be helpful...
Quote from: hawkeye93 on March 09, 2017, 06:43:12 AM
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 08, 2017, 11:01:49 PM
Shoutout to everyone else for moral support (except that dude that said my turbo could be blown, jk)
Jeez, you try to be helpful...
I would say at this juncture it could be anything but hopefully its that solenoid with its stinking wastegates but Its better than having your car Sabataj with brake fluid. LOL. Z :rofl2:
I feel this is adequate for this thread....
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/39fa53c6e27d0162e8f062299f67af19.jpg)
Can u refresh me on where the vac lines go from the solenoid?..is it the vac line from the charge pipe goes in the solenoid and the 2 coming out go to each wastegate canister?
Spot on I believe. Line from each turbo goes into the solenoid, and then the chargepipe line goes on the other side. Solenoid controls the path between the chargepipe line and the wastegate lines.
I talked to 3 dealers, finally found one that has it (1Hr away). Part is on hold and my dad is going to pick it up. They confirmed that it should do the same thing on both turbos. So basically, one turbo is operating normal, and the other is on wastegate spring pressure currently. As such, it makes sense that I can get a bit above wastegate pressure but then it drops back to spring pressure.
Its a $25 part. Hoping that the issue is fixed. Seems so ass backwards that a $25 part can cause such a large issue, and without codes to boot, but if I get it fixed I'll be happy so we just gotta see what happens.
For anyone else that comes upon this: check this out (even though its for subarus primarily): https://cobbtuning.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200025234-Boost-Issue-Diagnosis
No codes, just low boost for a failing boost control solenoid (ford parts call it a "Turbocharger Bypass Valve"). I'll report back later and see if we can nail 16psi again.
Solenoid fixed it. My testing method was incorrect, as the behavior I described is normal for the solenoid wth no power(new one did it as well) but car runs better for sure. Actually saw it hold boost and climb past 10psi. Gauge is probably a little low on indication since I left the TiAL bov reference connected but open on the other end while testing. I am going to put the vacuum lines back to stock and call it fixed. Going under the car in a few minutes to do my next oil change, so I'll make extra sure everything is proper at the turbos once more.
For now I'll just leave the stock charge piping and drive it as is. If I get time to go to a track again I'll swap to the epp stuff for that but according to the dealer the solenoid came from, stock bov operation is engineered as such to help with solenoid operation. May be a crock of s*** but for now it runs right so I'll leave it alone.
One day I'll do a custom front mount and atp turbos and run it all out, but seems I've reached the limits of what I should do with my DD and only car available currently.
Thanks for the help guys
Good news at last! Do you think this is independent of the AJP mod? Or should others be advised to keep a spare solenoid on hand as well?
Quote from: SHOdded on March 09, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
Good news at last! Do you think this is independent of the AJP mod? Or should others be advised to keep a spare solenoid on hand as well?
It did it with both stock and non-stock pipes, in fact, after further testing, seems to still be messed up. Spoke to soon, due to seeing better boost but not perfect. Solenoid fixed some of the issue, still seems I have a wastegate issue OR a leak, but did a leak test and there were no leaks to be found.
So either a turbo is in fact bad, or a wastegate is bad. Replacing wastegates would be probably in the neighborhood of $200-$400 for parts. And if that doesn't fix it, then what?
Since the car drives fine in town, and on the highway to an extent, just doesnt pull super hard, I am just saying screw it and leaving it alone.
I can't imagine a shop would have much better luck, other than throwing parts at it, and whether those parts fix it or not, charging me for them.
I'll leave it alone, and save up for ATPs, and a custom front mount. Take it to the local fab shop, and have them install said ATPs and front mount, and ask them to double check all the connections.
As a last resort, I pulled the negative off of the battery. I'm leaving it like that overnight, incase there is a U or B code, or something, that is stored that I do not have access to via the SCT X4.
I may also just say screw it, and trade the SHO in for something once its payed off, but who knows. There is really nothing else I can figure out that would be the issue, short of throwing a lot of money at trial and error for parts. If it is infact a turbo (or the wastegates), then the ATPs will fix that. If it is infact the intercooler, custom front mount will fix that. Anything else, and who the hell knows.
Also thinking maybe somehow a MAP sensor is bad? Does that seem reasonable at all?
Worth testing with the 2bar tune?
Honestly considering putting the car completely back to stock, minus the axle backs, and doing some emissions drive cycles. Then taking it to an obscure dealer that hasn't seen the car, and having them diagnose. If it fixes by going to stock then one of the parts is the issue. If it doesnt, then the dealer can pay for a new turbo under warranty. No idea.
Before you get crazy, try doing a pressure test. Cap off both turbos and the throttle body inlet tube. On the cap for the throttle inlet tube drill/tap holes to take a compressed air nozzle and another to install a cheap pressure gauge. Pressurize the system to 20psi or so and see if it holds. You can source all of the necessary items from the hardware store for cheap. That will rule out all leaks period.
I would try the Battery re-learn procedure. Z
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAsoqmqhdM#]! No longer available] (http://[/url)! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAsoqmqhdM#)
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 09, 2017, 07:49:18 PM
Before you get crazy, try doing a pressure test. Cap off both turbos and the throttle body inlet tube. On the cap for the throttle inlet tube drill/tap holes to take a compressed air nozzle and another to install a cheap pressure gauge. Pressurize the system to 20psi or so and see if it holds. You can source all of the necessary items from the hardware store for cheap. That will rule out all leaks period.
I think one of the forum members sent him a pressure test kit....
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 09, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 09, 2017, 07:49:18 PM
Before you get crazy, try doing a pressure test. Cap off both turbos and the throttle body inlet tube. On the cap for the throttle inlet tube drill/tap holes to take a compressed air nozzle and another to install a cheap pressure gauge. Pressurize the system to 20psi or so and see if it holds. You can source all of the necessary items from the hardware store for cheap. That will rule out all leaks period.
I think one of the forum members sent him a pressure test kit....
Yup, I got it today, and didn't find any issues with it. I went to ~15PSI using the 12V air compressor and no leaks to be found. So if there is a leak then I am both blind and deaf.
I really think a wastegate actuator is bad or something like that. But I dont want to throw more money at parts that might fix it. It should take ~ 1 day to take the car back fully stock. Then I just need to drive it a bit to get it emissions ready. After that just need to take it to a dealer and tell them it seems "low on power at higher RPMs". They'll say there are no codes, and I'll say it just seems like it isnt making boost based on owning another turbo car.
Go from there.
As of now, if the battery reset doesnt fix it, ill wait till may (my birthday, when my parents come back to visit since some of the parts are at their house) - put it back to stock, take it to a dealer.
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 09, 2017, 07:28:28 PM
Also thinking maybe somehow a MAP sensor is bad? Does that seem reasonable at all?
Worth testing with the 2bar tune?
Honestly considering putting the car completely back to stock, minus the axle backs, and doing some emissions drive cycles. Then taking it to an obscure dealer that hasn't seen the car, and having them diagnose. If it fixes by going to stock then one of the parts is the issue. If it doesnt, then the dealer can pay for a new turbo under warranty. No idea.
If going back to stock doesn't fix it, then I would do the above mentioned. Worst case is they say no, best case is they replace it. You would be no worse than you are now.
I understand your frustration man. If you're doubting the wastegate that's easy to check. The air line going from the EBC to each wastegate is easy to access. Pressurize that line, the wastegate arm should not move until 4-5psi right? I did that when installing a GTX2867 on my ST when I set the preload to 1 bar.
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 09, 2017, 08:22:36 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on March 09, 2017, 07:28:28 PM
Also thinking maybe somehow a MAP sensor is bad? Does that seem reasonable at all?
Worth testing with the 2bar tune?
Honestly considering putting the car completely back to stock, minus the axle backs, and doing some emissions drive cycles. Then taking it to an obscure dealer that hasn't seen the car, and having them diagnose. If it fixes by going to stock then one of the parts is the issue. If it doesnt, then the dealer can pay for a new turbo under warranty. No idea.
If going back to stock doesn't fix it, then I would do the above mentioned. Worst case is they say no, best case is they replace it. You would be no worse than you are now.
My though exactly. Either I find out something I did caused an issue (unlikely since i haven't done anything since december) OR there is an issue on a stock part. Hopefully they could get it fixed if that was the case.
Quote from: Frozen Blue on March 09, 2017, 08:42:14 PM
I understand your frustration man. If you're doubting the wastegate that's easy to check. The air line going from the EBC to each wastegate is easy to access. Pressurize that line, the wastegate arm should not move until 4-5psi right? I did that when installing a GTX2867 on my ST when I set the preload to 1 bar.
My issue is basically that I am being held to wastegate spring pressure. Car makes a bit above 5 psi for a few moments (ive seen a little over 10 on the intro to 3rd/4th if driving hard) but it gets pulled back to 5psi and held there.
Brad is sending me a revisions with 2bar MAP so I can check if my 3 bar took a crap.
Also found this, for the F150s. Not exactly what I have going on, but possibly plausible? https://www.f150forum.com/f70/strange-turbo-issue-2011-ecoboost-250851/index4/ (https://www.f150forum.com/f70/strange-turbo-issue-2011-ecoboost-250851/index4/)
Didn't seem to be fixed with the battery reset/relearn. I'll probably have to take it back to stock and make a dealer trip.
Further update, as it sits the issue is better but not fixed totally. Boost peaks and holds to 11.5psi and after 4 or so seconds drops off when underboost is detected.
Are you able to reach the wastegate arms and see if you can move them to see if they are on a bind oe stuck...this can only be a few things i would think...massive air leak or one or both gates are stuck open since you have replaced sensors and removed piping
FYI... at one point sticky wastegates were an issue with these cars... at least on the 2010-2012MY...
Check out Page 160 & up and see if it helps any. Z
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf)
Quote from: AJP turbo on March 10, 2017, 06:07:33 PM
Are you able to reach the wastegate arms and see if you can move them to see if they are on a bind oe stuck...this can only be a few things i would think...massive air leak or one or both gates are stuck open since you have replaced sensors and removed piping
I'll try and get my hand to the wastegate arms and pull and see what happens. I am also planning to do another pressure test just to be certain before I send Sabtaj1 his tester back. Since it doesn't seem to have any leaks this is the only reasonable explanation.
Quote from: StealBlueSho on March 10, 2017, 06:47:25 PM
FYI... at one point sticky wastegates were an issue with these cars... at least on the 2010-2012MY...
Now they tell me :/...I still think to get them replaced under warranty I would have to put the car to stock, otherwise Ford would probably say I put "too much boost" through them and caused premature failure.
Quote from: ZSHO on March 10, 2017, 07:58:56 PM
Check out Page 160 & up and see if it helps any. Z
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/motorcraft/OBDSM1505.pdf)
Thanks Z. That pretty much confirms that underboost is either from a major leak, which I don't seem to have, or wastegates. I'll try and check them by hand, if they seem sticky and I can get them unstuck maybe I can hit normal boost again. If that is the case then I may just say screw it and get the turbosmart actuators, or just pony up for the ATPs.
Ever figure this issue out?
I'm having a similar issue with my 2012 MKS. I noticed it feeling slower, so hooked up my boost gauge. I'm hitting a max of 11psi with a 3 bar tune installed, 2 bar tune installed, and returned to stock. I don't hear any weird noises, but it seems something is holding me at 11psi. No codes and car is operating completely normal, other than feeling slow.
Confirmed that the BOVs are functioning properly? The orange gaskets sometimes let go.
I haven't, but to be honest I'm not even sure how to check? I'm mechanically inclined, but never dealt with a turbo car before.
Guess I could just take the BOV's off and check the gaskets?
Quote from: Ryan02Stang on June 28, 2018, 10:48:44 AM
Ever figure this issue out?
I'm having a similar issue with my 2012 MKS. I noticed it feeling slower, so hooked up my boost gauge. I'm hitting a max of 11psi with a 3 bar tune installed, 2 bar tune installed, and returned to stock. I don't hear any weird noises, but it seems something is holding me at 11psi. No codes and car is operating completely normal, other than feeling slow.
What IAT Temps are you seeing! It should not exceed 150-F IIRC!
Check the CAC(Intercooler) for any debris & obstructed air-flow.
Try cleaning the MAP & IAT Sensors with some Mass-air-flow cleaner to see if it helps any!
I guess you can always perform a PCM Reset! Z
https://www.youtube.com/embed/hZAsoqmqhdM
Yes take the off and inspect. If there is a tear, it will be obvious. As always, check fir loose hoses atop the intake manifold. Also, turbo piping for loose clamps, cracks, accumulating oiliness.
Quote from: ZSHO on June 28, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: Ryan02Stang on June 28, 2018, 10:48:44 AM
Ever figure this issue out?
I'm having a similar issue with my 2012 MKS. I noticed it feeling slower, so hooked up my boost gauge. I'm hitting a max of 11psi with a 3 bar tune installed, 2 bar tune installed, and returned to stock. I don't hear any weird noises, but it seems something is holding me at 11psi. No codes and car is operating completely normal, other than feeling slow.
What IAT Temps are you seeing! It should not exceed 150-F IIRC!
Check the CAC(Intercooler) for any debris & obstructed air-flow.
Try cleaning the MAP & IAT Sensors with some Mass-air-flow cleaner to see if it helps any!
I guess you can always perform a PCM Reset! Z
https://www.youtube.com/embed/hZAsoqmqhdM
I'll clean the IAT's and see what temps I'm getting.
I cleaned my MAP sensor, and even swapped my 2 bar sensor back in a loaded a 2 bar tune....same thing, 11psi max.
I still haven't seen anything that looks like it would be causing a leak, so I'm thinking maybe a wastegate problem. I'll definitely check the IAT's tomorrow.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Also, does anyone know the part number for the wastegate actuator? And why the Turbosmart ones only say 2013+? I didn't know there was changes in the turbos in 2013.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Hmm i'd be surprised if the Cans were bad (do you mean the cans on the turbo?) If they were you normally should get a code (AJP? comfirm?) when the ECU command XX but only registers XX lbs.
if you mean the spider (the bypass valve / actuator)... a bunch of places has a replacement unit for 35$ **BUT** i'd wager the Hoses are bad before the unit. if you have a lift its super easy trace them and check them or just ouright replace them for 15$ and then secure them with something more stout.
https://www.1aauto.com/turbocharger-bypass-valve-solenoid-ford-oem-bl3z-9k378-a/i/fdzmx00010 (https://www.1aauto.com/turbocharger-bypass-valve-solenoid-ford-oem-bl3z-9k378-a/i/fdzmx00010)
https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/ford-solenoid-valve-bl3z9k378a (https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/ford-solenoid-valve-bl3z9k378a)
Still haven't figured it out and haven't found a leak anywhere. IAT temps look normal I believe. I got around to taking a datalog, and it looks like the boost is short of what is being commanded and the wastegate is always near 100% during full throttle.
Datalog attached
I've replaced the boost control solenoid and inspected the vacuum lines and still having the same issue. Checked the BOV's, cleaned the MAP and IAT sensors and also didn't fix anything.
Looking at my datalogs I'm mostly only seeing 4-11psi, with the car commanding 14.5psi of boost. Very surprised I've not gotten a low boost code.
Wastegate % is 100 for almost my entire datalog when under full throttle.
Still going to keep messing with it, but I'm pretty much out of ideas at this point.
FWIW check the wastegate Hose that leads from the Boost reference solenoid,which then feeds to the rear turbo actuator I believe! I don't have PICS @ the moment but might be worth while to inspect that particular hose in question! Z
Highlighted in Red!
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2rdi981.jpg)
It's hard to imagine both actuators having an issue, but I would confirm that they are working properly, since there is no leak topside.
Quote from: ZSHO on August 06, 2018, 12:30:25 PM
FWIW check the wastegate Hose that leads from the Boost reference solenoid,which then feeds to the rear turbo actuator I believe! I don't have PICS @ the moment but might be worth while to inspect that particular hose in question! Z
I've checked that hose as best as I could and didn't see any issues with it, but it is a hard one to see. I followed the hose from the solenoid to the T-fitting that then split to each actuator. Both appear ok from what I can see, but I did not remove them to inspect. I did confirm they are connected to the actuators.
Quote from: SHOdded on August 06, 2018, 12:30:31 PM
It's hard to imagine both actuators having an issue, but I would confirm that they are working properly, since there is no leak topside.
Right! I'd be completely shocked that both actuators would go bad at the same time.
How do you confirm they are working properly? Just see if you can reach them and move the arm freely?
yes, the linkages should move freely. And the wastegate should actually full close and open.
Quote from: SHOdded on August 06, 2018, 12:38:31 PM
yes, the linkages should move freely. And the wastegate should actually full close and open.
I'll give it a try. One on the back side looks like a pain in the butt to get to!
Thanks!
I know it's been awhile but I'm having the same issues with my vehicle. Did you ever figure out the issue?
Nothing like 6 page dead end threads with no solution or update posted. 🤦♂️
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on September 04, 2021, 01:38:06 PM
Nothing like 6 page dead end threads with no solution or update posted. 🤦♂️
I was betting on the WG orange gasket but it would be nice to hear back from this one.
Was the case for me. 2nd one too. But for some reason this one by the firewall was being tricky. It wasn't as obvious as the front when it blew.