Hey,
My SHO has almost 38k miles on it. I know from friends that own Direct Injected cars (Audi&VW) that they have to get the valves cleaned because of the carbon buildup. I know that the Ecoboost is Direct Injected, is carbon buildup something to worry about? As for fuel, I run 93 octane. Should I continue to run 93 or am I just wasting money?
Run 93 for sure!
As far as the carbon build up. It's a hotly discussed topic here. FWIW I have been unable to find the kind of severe problems audi, etc, have... In 2011 Ford dismantled a Transverse 3.5 TTEB (GDI) in public at 37K miles with no significant finding of build up... The car was dyno'd before and after the cleaning they did and no HP change was found... the article is posted somewhere in the PCV issues thread.
Fuel has no effect on it like it did with the old port injection engines as no fuel ever touches the valves now to keep them clean, but 93 your boosted engine will like you for as far as power and MPG. Ready the PCV thread like Mac suggested. The EB does NOT have it as severe as the audi & BMW's.
Run 93 octane for general engine performance and safety... Tracey is correct, that's where the issue arises in GDI engines... don't do it for the valves, run 93 octane for all the other reasons... not much more than is stated here is actually known about htis in the Transvers 3.5 TT GDI engine... only time will tell.
I would recommend reading the problems with the PCV thread in it's entirety....
I Read the top big post on the PCV thread,I thought the Ecoboost had its own built in oil separator. I also saw the Ecoboost f150 teardown from the torture test. All the pistons had carbon buildup and it also had buildup on the the valves. Looks like my first SHO mod will be a catch can. I have seen tons of them on the market. Which is the best? Are they hard to install? I put a JLT separator on my friends 2013 Mustang GT. Literally took me 5 mins. I'm hoping it's as easy on the Ecoboost
Quote from: jtoddk98 on April 11, 2014, 10:27:29 AM
I Read the top big post on the PCV thread,I thought the Ecoboost had its own built in oil separator. I also saw the Ecoboost f150 teardown from the torture test. All the pistons had carbon buildup and it also had buildup on the the valves. Looks like my first SHO mod will be a catch can. I have seen tons of them on the market. Which is the best? Are they hard to install? I put a JLT separator on my friends 2013 Mustang GT. Literally took me 5 mins. I'm hoping it's as easy on the Ecoboost
IMHO, you really should read the entire 9 pages of the PCV thread as well as ShoBoat's "Testing oil separators" to be fully informed. It's here:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2584.msg38378#msg38378 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2584.msg38378#msg38378)
FWIW I believe the evidence for or against use the SHO 3.5 transverse GDI is just not in yet.... FYI, I own an RX catch can and cleanside separator...just not installed yet. I want objective info. Each will decide what path to take as with all mods.
I finally read through both threads. I even gave Livernois a call (kinda knew what they were going to say). Man, its a really big debate. Coming from the Mustang world, people just put them on, couldn't hurt anything. I wish there was a RX design catch can that was specifically made for the SHO for ease of installation. I don't want to have to retrofit something from a f150. I noticed that my local Ford dealer offers BG services. Are these good? Especially the intake service to take care of the carbon build up.
Quote from: jtoddk98 on April 11, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
I finally read through both threads. I even gave Livernois a call (kinda knew what they were going to say). Man, its a really big debate. Coming from the Mustang world, people just put them on, couldn't hurt anything. I wish there was a RX design catch can that was specifically made for the SHO for ease of installation. I don't want to have to retrofit something from a f150. I noticed that my local Ford dealer offers BG services. Are these good? Especially the intake service to take care of the carbon build up.
BG services is IMHO top of the line. There are others, just not enough experience... If I haven't seen the objective evidence I need to decide... and my performance falls off (I end up doing dynos at intervals to check mods) I'll go BG at a dealer. FWIW, and that's little on the intake valves, I use Techron concentrate every every 3K miles.
Same trouble I had/have deciding... GDI is different (as opposed to port injection), turbo'd is different too....
Quote from: jtoddk98 on April 11, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
...I wish there was a RX design catch can that was specifically made for the SHO for ease of installation.
HERE (http://shop.ecoboostpowerparts.com/RX-Catch-Can-w-Dual-Check-Valve-Regular-or-Monster-sized-RXCatchCan.htm) is the link to EcoBoost Power Parts website, this is where you'll find the SHO application for the Rx OCC, not on the Rx website direct. You don't want the "Monster Can", just the dual check valve, "regular" can. The clean-side separator is extra, but also available on that page.
I'm afraid you've stumbled into a bit of a hot button topic on the forum at the moment. LOL The great news about that in a place like this, is that means there is a TON of testing and research being done at the moment (I love it here). Unfortunately the jury is out on a lot of these tests...but the results should start pouring in soon.
As for more information on your question; "which is the best?" and ease of install I own a Rx OCC and clean-side separator, and installed it last week on my XSport, which is a VERY similar layout to your platform. Haven't drained it yet...but the miles are adding up. All-in-all, I would say start to finish I spent about 2.5 - 3 hours on it. This was my first OCC install, this is my first forced induction engine, I took pictures as I went for the DIY write-up, and had a run to the hardware store thrown in to pick up a couple nuts and bolts for my particular mounting choice. So, I would say not a big job at all. Plus with the addition of more write-ups being done, there's more information to help things go smoother and faster than when I did it.
Click HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2536.msg37727#msg37727) for my install thread, HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2187.0) for install on a Flex, HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2565.msg38075#msg38075) for SwampRat's 'results' page of what people are getting out of their Rx cans / other mounting ideas, and HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2584.msg38357#msg38357) for another test going on at the moment by ShoBoat with the Moroso separators.
Quote from: JimiJak on April 11, 2014, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: jtoddk98 on April 11, 2014, 06:06:28 PM
...I wish there was a RX design catch can that was specifically made for the SHO for ease of installation.
HERE (http://shop.ecoboostpowerparts.com/RX-Catch-Can-w-Dual-Check-Valve-Regular-or-Monster-sized-RXCatchCan.htm) is the link to EcoBoost Power Parts website, this is where you'll find the SHO application for the Rx OCC, not on the Rx website direct. You don't want the "Monster Can", just the dual check valve, "regular" can. The clean-side separator is extra, but also available on that page.
I'm afraid you've stumbled into a bit of a hot button topic on the forum at the moment. LOL The great news about that in a place like this, is that means there is a TON of testing and research being done at the moment (I love it here). Unfortunately the jury is out on a lot of these tests...but the results should start pouring in soon.
As for more information on your question; "which is the best?" and ease of install I own a Rx OCC and clean-side separator, and installed it last week on my XSport, which is a VERY similar layout to your platform. Haven't drained it yet...but the miles are adding up. All-in-all, I would say start to finish I spent about 2.5 - 3 hours on it. This was my first OCC install, this is my first forced induction engine, I took pictures as I went for the DIY write-up, and had a run to the hardware store thrown in to pick up a couple nuts and bolts for my particular mounting choice. So, I would say not a big job at all. Plus with the addition of more write-ups being done, there's more information to help things go smoother and faster than when I did it.
Click HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2536.msg37727#msg37727) for my install thread, HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2187.0) for install on a Flex, HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2565.msg38075#msg38075) for SwampRat's 'results' page of what people are getting out of their Rx cans / other mounting ideas, and HERE (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2584.msg38357#msg38357) for another test going on at the moment by ShoBoat with the Moroso separators.
The more actual end user testing and results, the better. Our handicap here is we only have the EB f150 on site for long term testing of the EB's. The more cars from the area that can come and participate, the better. We want as high a mileage one as possible to do before dyno, then manual clean valves and add RX system and do after dyno.
So far all but a few of the over 250 f150 EB RX users have reported from 1-3 mpg improvement as well.
Tracy, I'm resurrecting this thread...
To get back to the root of these questions; a ton of excess carbon seems to be a regular trait of direct injection engines. And this time I'm not talking about the PCV mist getting burned off by hot intake ports...I'm talking about from the combustion chamber out. I've never had exhaust tips get completely covered in soot like they do with direct injection.
Why is that??
They run pig rich at wot. That's another advantage of blending e-85, tips stay clean and shiny. I wonder what effect it has, if any, on carbon buildup in the valves. Sounds like its time to have a tech break out the boroscope.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 23, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
They run pig rich at wot. That's another advantage of blending e-85, tips stay clean and shiny. I wonder what effect it has, if any, on carbon buildup in the valves. Sounds like its time to have a tech break out the boroscope.
True...but even when the girlfriend putts around town, three days and they're filthy. More to it?
That's a good question. My tips are black after about a week. I ran a can of BG 44K through a tank of gas to clean the piston tops and combustion chamber up.
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Quote from: JimiJak on May 23, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 23, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
They run pig rich at wot. That's another advantage of blending e-85, tips stay clean and shiny. I wonder what effect it has, if any, on carbon buildup in the valves. Sounds like its time to have a tech break out the boroscope.
True...but even when the girlfriend putts around town, three days and they're filthy. More to it?
When the cats away the mice will play?
Might as well run some Seafoam through things once in a while?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 23, 2014, 02:57:43 PM
Quote from: JimiJak on May 23, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 23, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
They run pig rich at wot. That's another advantage of blending e-85, tips stay clean and shiny. I wonder what effect it has, if any, on carbon buildup in the valves. Sounds like its time to have a tech break out the boroscope.
True...but even when the girlfriend putts around town, three days and they're filthy. More to it?
When the cats away the mice will play?
Hahaha, that's not it... She's a mpg nut. Lol
Quote from: kinder on May 23, 2014, 05:19:23 PM
Might as well run some Seafoam through things once in a while?
Man, I hope not. Just rolled 3,000 miles on the truck. It's been doing it since day one... Sounds like most have this problem.
Mine weren't too bad till I took the cats off... now I have to polish the tips every few days
Quote from: SHODYOU on May 24, 2014, 12:46:18 AM
Mine weren't too bad till I took the cats off... now I have to polish the tips every few days
One of the side benifits of having BLACK powder coated tips .... you don't really notice it . ;)
I got a borescope from work yesterday and checked out my valves and intercooler for oil
Not sure which valves these are the camera was pretty hard to control through the throttle body.
It was pretty dirty. 33,000 miles.
I have video also of the intercooler but it was recorded in Avi format so it's giving my trouble uploading to you tube.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/re4uzevy.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/erada7u3.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/3a3y4ahe.jpg)
Nice pics, looking fwd to the video. Was it a professional borescope that you used?
Yeah. It's used for fire sprinkler pipe internal inspections.
I had to take a screenshot when the video was playing.
I just posted the link for intercooler draining in shoboats original how to post.
thanks for the pics!
this carbon buildup thing is having me a little worried, especially after that video saying Ford itself is baffled and really doesn't know what to do or recommend.
what are you going to do about it? please post after pics if you do some kind of treatment...
BG already did a write up on a Sho they owned with pictures from theres valves.Its a good read and shows there product seem to keep it under control
Ok, here a two videos of my intake valves. View 1 is of the cylinder closest to the driver. Second view2 is the cylinder closest to the PCV inlet on the manifold. ( one that would get all off the extra oil blow off). You can see that the valve is open.
2013 SHO, 18k miles. No catch can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8BeEW_2AAI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8BeEW_2AAI&feature=youtu.be)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHLwWIN5J0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViHLwWIN5J0&feature=youtu.be)
Cool vids, you can see the buildup. Interesting that you have nothing in the CAC but still have it on the valves. Is yours a 13 or 14?
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It's a 13. I'd say the build up comes from the cylinder itself somehow. Because my intake tracts are all bone dry. No traces of oil at all. So I have no idea how it's building up except for coming back threw the intake port. If it was from the intake side you would see little trails of oil in the manifold. But there isn't a trace at all.
I do run lucas UCL. Not sure if it helps or hurts the carbon buildup. But I do get around 2-3 mpg better on the highway.
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Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
It's a 13. I'd say the build up comes from the cylinder itself somehow. Because my intake tracts are all bone dry. No traces of oil at all. So I have no idea how it's building up except for coming back threw the intake port. If it was from the intake side you would see little trails of oil in the manifold. But there isn't a trace at all.
I do run lucas UCL. Not sure if it helps or hurts the carbon buildup. But I do get around 2-3 mpg better on the highway.
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Carbon build up is not directly correlated to oil being in the intercooler, the latter is just a symptom that usually is there when there is excessive buildup though is not always certain. With our direct injected fuel system the gasoline is sprayed directly onto of the piston whereas a regular fuel injection system sprays the gasoline through the intake valve openings which cleans the valves basically every time the car is running.
Only real way to solve this issue is to do intake valve/fuel system cleaning intervals, to use quality and higher octane fuel, and/or methanol injection which will clean the valves every time it is activated.
Quote from: Spartn27 on June 04, 2014, 10:02:50 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
It's a 13. I'd say the build up comes from the cylinder itself somehow. Because my intake tracts are all bone dry. No traces of oil at all. So I have no idea how it's building up except for coming back threw the intake port. If it was from the intake side you would see little trails of oil in the manifold. But there isn't a trace at all.
I do run lucas UCL. Not sure if it helps or hurts the carbon buildup. But I do get around 2-3 mpg better on the highway.
Sent using smoke signals.
Carbon build up is not directly correlated to oil being in the intercooler, the latter is just a symptom that usually is there when there is excessive buildup though is not always certain. With our direct injected fuel system the gasoline is sprayed directly onto of the piston whereas a regular fuel injection system sprays the gasoline through the intake valve openings which cleans the valves basically every time the car is running.
Only real way to solve this issue is to do intake valve/fuel system cleaning intervals, to use quality and higher octane fuel, and/or methanol injection which will clean the valves every time it is activated.
I'd like to spray some "deep creep" (made by sea foam) on the valves. Just afraid it will all come flying off at once.
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I would run some high quality fuel injector cleaner such as BG44, Lucas Fuel Injector Cleaner or Marvel Mystery Oil along with some high quality fuel to clean some of the crud before getting the majority of it out with something more potent.
I've been running techron quite often but I know bg44 is what I need to get.
Somewhere on a 3.5 teardown I read that these engines inject a miniscule amount of fuel during the exhaust stroke to help wash the valves. I just can't find the page anymore. Not sure if it's true.
Either way the only "fix" right now is a meth kit.
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Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
I do run lucas UCL. Not sure if it helps or hurts the carbon buildup. But I do get around 2-3 mpg better on the highway.
Impressive gain!
Quote from: SHOdded on June 04, 2014, 11:12:35 AM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 09:30:51 AM
I do run lucas UCL. Not sure if it helps or hurts the carbon buildup. But I do get around 2-3 mpg better on the highway.
Impressive gain!
Yeah it is surprising. Doing 73-74 mph on interstate I get 27 mpg. Anything after 74 and the milage drops off. Coming back from Denver I was getting 29 mpg. Considering it's a gradual decrease in elevation to ks it's expected. I'll post pics of my trip meter next time.
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I did the seafoam a while back with no apparent I'll effects. It actually felt like it ran better after I was done. Just use it slowly like I did over about 15-20 min. I used about 1/2 can. I plan on doing another soon. I will do a before and after on the valves.
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You values looked fairly carbon free. But they seemed wet . So oil is getting to them. I wonder if changes where made to system for the 13 refresh?? ?
Quote from: ShoBoat on June 04, 2014, 11:28:00 AM
I did the seafoam a while back with no apparent I'll effects. It actually felt like it ran better after I was done. Just use it slowly like I did over about 15-20 min. I used about 1/2 can. I plan on doing another soon. I will do a before and after on the valves.
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Have you tried using the deep creep stuff by seafoam? It's supposed to really break carbon down. What I did was take the map sensor out and sprayed into each venture of the manifold in hopes to cover each valve.
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Quote from: panther427 on June 04, 2014, 12:04:37 PM
You values looked fairly carbon free. But they seemed wet . So oil is getting to them. I wonder if changes where made to system for the 13 refresh?? ?
The second video was after I sprayed seafoam on the valves so it looked glossy. But they still had a liquid oil sludge on them so they are getting contaminated somehow.
I wish I could put the camera down the manifold while it's running to see if there is some kind of blow back into the manifold.
Also I wonder if it's possible to atomize seafoam so it can be sprayed into the manifold like a fog.
I'll try to make something tonight using compressed air and some kind of nozzle.
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Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on June 04, 2014, 11:28:00 AM
I did the seafoam a while back with no apparent I'll effects. It actually felt like it ran better after I was done. Just use it slowly like I did over about 15-20 min. I used about 1/2 can. I plan on doing another soon. I will do a before and after on the valves.
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Have you tried using the deep creep stuff by seafoam? It's supposed to really break carbon down. What I did was take the map sensor out and sprayed into each venture of the manifold in hopes to cover each valve.
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This is what I used,
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/gube3eza.jpg)
It comes with a tube that is slid under the intake tube just before the tb. And this allows you to slowly add the seafoam to the intake track. Almost the same point of entry for the meth kits I have seen.
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Quote from: ShoBoat on June 04, 2014, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 04, 2014, 12:14:50 PM
Quote from: ShoBoat on June 04, 2014, 11:28:00 AM
I did the seafoam a while back with no apparent I'll effects. It actually felt like it ran better after I was done. Just use it slowly like I did over about 15-20 min. I used about 1/2 can. I plan on doing another soon. I will do a before and after on the valves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have you tried using the deep creep stuff by seafoam? It's supposed to really break carbon down. What I did was take the map sensor out and sprayed into each venture of the manifold in hopes to cover each valve.
Sent using smoke signals.
This is what I used,
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/gube3eza.jpg)
It comes with a tube that is slid under the intake tube just before the tb. And this allows you to slowly add the seafoam to the intake track. Almost the same point of entry for the meth kits I have seen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I forgot they made that straw. I'll have to find one.
Here's what I'm using. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/05/7ebe3u3u.jpg)
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As a suggestion for a kit, I wouldn't try this at the normal price of $49.99 but it is on sale for $24.99 with a $10 rebate. Makes a nice filler for a Amazon order, cheap enough to keep a couple on hand.
http://www.amazon.com/3M-08963-Fuel-System-Tune-Up/dp/B003YJ47JO (http://www.amazon.com/3M-08963-Fuel-System-Tune-Up/dp/B003YJ47JO)
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/stores/auto/detail-page/B003YJ47JO.01.lg.jpg)
This kit was just on Woot for $13.99, hopefully will be again. Keep an eye out 4 it.
Yeah was going to post the thread. But it looks like it's sold out.
I just made an appointment for the bg intake service for Friday. I'll post some pics of the valves after.
I'm having my cousin enable the awd gauge this week. When. I'm at the dealership I'll ask him about the carbon build up on the 3.5 and what he does and or is told to do about it.
What the tsb says and what the mechanics do differs sometimes.
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Quote from: SHOdded on June 04, 2014, 03:24:10 PM
This kit was just on Woot for $13.99, hopefully will be again. Keep an eye out 4 it.
With the $10 mail-in rebate it gets it down to $14.99, It seems like a clearance out on the kit due to a updated product package.
Let me know the results of the BG service. Even though ford engineers advise against it, I still want to do it. All of the Ford dealers in my area offer BG products. If they offer the service, then they can fix my car when they break it.
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You don't want any larger particles to come loose and impact the hot side turbine on the turbos....damage will occur.
I also do not like the scouring the smaller particles cause to the cylinder walls and piston skirts when they are forced between the cyl & piston wall along with the solvent. And make SURE to change oil and filter immediately following an upper induction cleaning as debris and solvent will have entered the crankcase and the oil.
A manual cleaning will get them clean as new though and dosent take long. The cars seem to have a less efficient CAC so they do not condense as much as the trucks do, but oil enters the intake air charge through 2 different paths. One is backflowing out the fresh/clean side line into the turbo inlet pipe, and the other is direct into the intake manifold from the foul/dirty side valve cover. If your getting nothing in the CAC then try installing the base RX single valve system as you may only have ingestion through the foul side.
What's required to do a manual cleaning? Removal of eveything above the valves?
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Here is a video of a 2013 f150 3.5 eco with 14,000 miles on it. I found the map sensor on the top of the intake was covered in oil. This engine was a lot worse than my car. It has less miles as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqlUeKg8uM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbqlUeKg8uM&feature=youtu.be)
Has anyone seen this yet? http://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/
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That's a lot worse than mine at 52K. I don't have meth, or lead foot all the time and I do a lot of suburban commute driving. In upstate NY, my seasonal temps spend a fair amount of time in the cold category, so the only thing that pops into my mind as to why mine might be a lot less carboned up is the fuel. I have exclusively run 93 through my tank as LMS 4+ is my main tune. I also have used synthetic oil since I picked up the car at 18K.
Fuel has zero effect as it no longer touches the valves, but full syn oil DOES result in less buildup than the syn mix the dealer puts in, and yours sound like a good example of this.
I noticed an improvement after a light seafoam induction. I'm going to do small treatments till the majority of carbon is removed.
I still wonder how ford is ok with letting an engine be installed without finding a proper solution for the carbon. They had the 3.5 in development for year! They had plenty of time to think of something.
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This has been an issue for years. This isn't a new problem for DI engines. Nobody has really found a solution yet. The 2.3 DI in mazda, they clean the valves manually. Same with BMW
Quote from: wasinger3000 on June 06, 2014, 04:44:02 PM
I noticed an improvement after a light seafoam induction. I'm going to do small treatments till the majority of carbon is removed.
I still wonder how ford is ok with letting an engine be installed without finding a proper solution for the carbon. They had the 3.5 in development for year! They had plenty of time to think of something.
Sent using smoke signals.
Well at least Ford seems to have done a much better job minimizing carbon build up than some of the Euro DI cars that lose so much power in 20K miles that they have to have the intake manifold removed and the back of the valves blasted with walnut shells.
You would think they would have figured this out testing the engines before mass producing them. Or by now figured a way to resolve the issue.
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Quote from: ShoBoat on June 06, 2014, 05:17:11 PM
You would think they would have figured this out testing the engines before mass producing them. Or by now figured a way to resolve the issue.
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They bragged about all the testing and very detailed creation of the ecoboost. Yet failed to create a decent way to reduce carbon build up. They have a team of very talented engineers that should of created a new system. Yet I'm sure there is more to the story.
Just like the intercooler issue on the f150. The easiest fix with the lowest cost they could think of was to just cover half of the intercooler with a $10 piece or plastic. I can see that as a bandaid for the trucks on the road already but for the 13'-14' they should of created a new intercooler that would be put on during assembly.
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Anyone ever perform this?
http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-gasoline-direct-injection-cleaner/#bg-product-15
I assume the fist stage goes in the gas and the second stage just needs to be atomized into the intake.
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A couple of videos before and after BG service.
2010 Taurus SHO before BG intake valve srvc: http://youtu.be/Obg9QmIaCGc
2010 Taurus SHO intake valves after BG intake srvc: http://youtu.be/8fnPAqxNQKo
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost
more to come.....
Thanks for taking these vids, glock! There certainly seems to be a difference in air flow, hardness of deposit, etc. Something that is causing the varied results. From the looks of it, even if the deposits on the tops of the valves have been softened, they may stay there unless another service is performed at a very short interval (500-1000 miles).
Was this the service performed using this product:
http://www.bgfindashop.com/bgservices/fuelair.htm (http://www.bgfindashop.com/bgservices/fuelair.htm)
http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-air-intake-system-cleaner/#bg-product-3 (http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-air-intake-system-cleaner/#bg-product-3)
Their GDI product supposedly cleans the intake valves:
http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-gasoline-direct-injection-cleaner/#bg-product-15 (http://www.bgprod.com/catalog/gasoline-fuel-system/bg-gasoline-direct-injection-cleaner/#bg-product-15)
Does IAT affect these buildups in any way? Is there an optimum IAT to keep the intake valves clean? Not so low as to condense the vapors?
Just found a video on YT (may be posted before?):
BG Induction Service (Carbon Deposit Treatment) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biM5-GW4CLQ#ws)
BG Induction Service Pt. 2 (Carbon Deposit Treatment) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JvCtCQM2zM#ws)
Tooling around the web, found this article. Most of it is probably old hat to y'all, but here it is anyway:
http://www.searchautoparts.com/motorage/technicians/drivability/causes-carbon-buildup-gdi-engines?page=0,0 (http://www.searchautoparts.com/motorage/technicians/drivability/causes-carbon-buildup-gdi-engines?page=0,0)
Has a checklist of safety items when servicing GDI engines also.
Quick pic inside the intake manifold
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/10/uge2eta6.jpg)
2010 RCM non PP
K&N panel filter
sp534 @ 30
unleashed 93 performance+boost
more to come.....
That reminds me if the first Alien movie.
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Looks like splotches of oil on the sides.
Sent using smoke signals.
http://youtu.be/0irwbwpuEbQ
http://youtu.be/nK2eXdaydqI
Just thought I should share. Most of this is all old news.
I've been looking fairly intently into this topic since my MKT is approaching 90k. I've taken a look at my intake ports with a $20 Amazon scope. They have a significant amount of build up. I'm going to clean the intake manifold, throttle body, and intake ports. I've looked at the various options:
Intake Chemical Clean
Manual Clean
Of the two, Manual seems to be the safest for the bottom end/turbos. In looking at the Manual cleaning, the safest/fastest of those looks to be the "BMW" Walnut Blasting service for their Direct Injection engines.
Have a look here for DIY instructions on a $800-1000 service: http://www.bimmerhelp.info/DIY_N54_Valve_Blast.html (http://www.bimmerhelp.info/DIY_N54_Valve_Blast.html)
With all the part/tool purchases it looks to cost 400-500 if you don't have a compressor, or less if you do. The question is does their vacuum adapter fit our intake ports. I've contacted the guy who created the guide above to get his opinion. Anyone know the intake port dimensions?
Many people say that this engine or that engine are better or worse at having or alleviating deposits. There are too many variables to say for sure. Including the fact that many parts are sourced globally from the same manufactures, and PCV systems are pretty universally badly designed on turbo/DI cars. I think a Catch Can will also be purchased with the tools to clean the upper intake.
^^^^^^^^^^
leecox , walnut blasting works well although I don't know of anyone that has done it on the 3.5 EB.
Maybe someone else can give get the measurements for you .....
Welcome to EBPF !
Feel free to introduce yourself in the new Member area as well.
You'll be unique on this Forum , I don't recall any MKT owners here .
leecox go to the introduction page and setup your profile and welcome aboard and good luck with the ride.
You forgot one option.....meth injection.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on September 14, 2014, 01:05:33 PM
You forgot one option.....meth injection.
FoMoCo.... I know meth injection will keep the intake valves clean.... Wil it also clean them if they are coked already at 90K miles?
leecox.... Welcome!
No. ^
There comes a point when manual cleaning is the only solution.
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So a question, has anyone approached their dealer to have a manual cleaning? I wonder if they can do it and what the cost will be.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiViPKIoG68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiViPKIoG68)
Found this on tv. Pretty impressive.
So you watch WD with Mike & Ed, eh? Here's their procedure (http://terraclean.net/pdf/GDI%20Intake%20Valve%20and%20Port%20Cleaning%20Procedure.pdf) for cleaning the intake valves on GDI engines.
Quote from: SHOdded on September 17, 2014, 07:24:26 PM
So you watch WD with Mike & Ed, eh? Here's their procedure (http://terraclean.net/pdf/GDI%20Intake%20Valve%20and%20Port%20Cleaning%20Procedure.pdf) for cleaning the intake valves on GDI engines.
I love WD. Since I only get 4 episodes of top gear UK in a year I have a desire left unfilled for British car action lol.
All the US car shows are bleh.
Them's some crazy folks up there in the UK, or should we say England from tomorrow onwards?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ynGWxzJHjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ynGWxzJHjA)
Ha! He shows a RevXtreme catchcan during the video. Apparently excessive blowby (byproduct of turbo function) pressurizes the crankcase and thus forcing even more c*** through the intake onto the back of the intake valves.
Quote from: SHOdded on January 08, 2015, 12:37:57 AM
Ha! He shows a RevXtreme catchcan during the video. Apparently excessive blowby (byproduct of turbo function) pressurizes the crankcase and thus forcing even more c*** through the intake onto the back of the intake valves.
It's not so much turbos as it is high compression... Cylinder blow by to crankcase causes potential pressure which is relieved by the PCV and put back in the intake pipes.... It's another reason to be VTA... At least then there's no recycling the stuff. Even with the can you need a clean side separator.
"The ecoboost engine likes to be driven hard"!!!
Oh the faint memories of my dad looking over after getting on it in his truck and saying, "have to burn that carbon up son"!
Rich
X2 ON THAT,if you can on a nice quiet open road,do some hard 0-60 runs about 3-4 times to alleviate some of that carbon buildup,good luck.
Our fathers must have talked to each other! My dad always told us he was "blowing the dirt out" every time he went WOT, LOL
Mine always said he was blowing the "cobwebs" out... hah. Good enough for me.
No denying where we got our heavy right foots from.
Rich
Quote from: BiGMaC on January 08, 2015, 01:16:45 AM
It's another reason to be VTA... At least then there's no recycling the stuff. Even with the can you need a clean side separator.
Is this the only form of EGR, or is there a traditional method as well?
Quote from: J-Will on January 09, 2015, 10:11:50 AM
Quote from: BiGMaC on January 08, 2015, 01:16:45 AM
It's another reason to be VTA... At least then there's no recycling the stuff. Even with the can you need a clean side separator.
Is this the only form of EGR, or is there a traditional method as well?
Not exactly sure what you're asking Will... See if this helps
All cars in the US, of course, have a PCV valve as you know. On our cars it exhausts into the intake tubing... in fact most of it goes to the front turbo. This CC blowby with volatilized oil, unburnt fuel, and water is what causes coking of the turbo impeller blades over time as well as the intake valves. These can only be cleaned mechanically unless you are meth injected which definitely helps the intake valves stay clean. Ford, BTW, may have the best system available currently per the literature. CCBB has always gone to the intake air, remember that his into the air filter on your carbonated cars?... With VTA at least part of this goes to atmosphere instead of being recompressed and/or concentrated. The clean side separator removes most of this and is a replacement for the oil filler cap to be used along with the RXPerformance catch can. See it here: http://www.revxtreme.com/rx-catch-cans (http://www.revxtreme.com/rx-catch-cans)
Or check Tracy's explanations of this posted on the forum. maybe start with the install: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.msg31056.html#msg31056 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.msg31056.html#msg31056)
Not selling anything... I do own the RevExtreme catch can and CSS though.
Does this help?
Yes it does help. I was asking to get a better understanding of what would need to be blocked in order to prevent all exhaust gases from re entering the engine. It was common practice on previous cars to throw on a block off plate, and use HP Tuners to disable CELs. I am wondering if anything other than changing to VTA would need to be done in order to prevent all exhaust gases from recirculating.
I am also wondering why LMS would say that they see no benefit from VTA.
Quote from: J-Will on January 09, 2015, 04:23:59 PM
Yes it does help. I was asking to get a better understanding of what would need to be blocked in order to prevent all exhaust gases from re entering the engine. It was common practice on previous cars to throw on a block off plate, and use HP Tuners to disable CELs. I am wondering if anything other than changing to VTA would need to be done in order to prevent all exhaust gases from recirculating.
I am also wondering why LMS would say that they see no benefit from VTA.
Most guys are getting a cup or more per 1000 miles in the RevExtreme catch can. I can't answer your question directly, but do you want this stuff in that premium oil you buy to protect your engine? Haven't seen anyone just plugging holes, but RevExtreme does make a breather cap... Tracy is very helpful. PM him. He's a whiz at this particular type of issue and explains well. You'll find him in the vendors area.
Quote from: J-Will on January 09, 2015, 04:23:59 PM
Yes it does help. I was asking to get a better understanding of what would need to be blocked in order to prevent all exhaust gases from re entering the engine. It was common practice on previous cars to throw on a block off plate, and use HP Tuners to disable CELs. I am wondering if anything other than changing to VTA would need to be done in order to prevent all exhaust gases from recirculating.
I am also wondering why LMS would say that they see no benefit from VTA.
There is no egr valve on these cars, so there is nothing to block off. Any exhaust gasses that make their way back into the combustion chamber is done using cam timing. BiGMaC is talking about crank case blow by. I have my front fresh air tube removed and use a k&n filter there to it vents to atmosphere. I then use two check valves on the rear oil separator to switch between vacuum draw from the intake manifold when not in boost and the front turbo inlet when in boost. It helps reduce the oil pulled into the turbo from the crank case vapors by pulling all crank case vapors through the factory oil separator, instead of a metal baffle in the front valve cover.
I still want to add an aftermarket catch can to the system, just haven't done it yet.
John
Here's the finished product so far....
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/10/fa90d523bb94a7ee7576ceec6930492d.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/10/fe0ca4aa8fefda82612e7b14a967bead.jpg)
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I apologize if this article was posted in the past,but find it quite intriguing related to the torture test on the ecoboost engine http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/what-the-inside-of-a-torture-tested-ecoboost-v-6-looks-like.html (http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/what-the-inside-of-a-torture-tested-ecoboost-v-6-looks-like.html) and all the carbon buildup.
Quote from: ZSHO on January 11, 2015, 08:33:23 AM
I apologize if this article was posted in the past,but find it quite intriguing related to the torture test on the ecoboost engine http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/what-the-inside-of-a-torture-tested-ecoboost-v-6-looks-like.html (http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/01/what-the-inside-of-a-torture-tested-ecoboost-v-6-looks-like.html) and all the carbon buildup.
It's a great article Z! Worth the post and read!
Here is a link to the BG products 60K mile test on a brand new 2010 SHO they ordered. They recognized the problems related to GDI engines and show consequences... I'm sure it has been posted before, but remains pertinent 3+ years after completion. On the page sublinks to assessment, analysis, and pics of components about every 5K miles They even did some dynos at a few intervals... https://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/the-fast-and-the-fuel-test/ (https://www.bgprod.com/bgfueltest/the-fast-and-the-fuel-test/)
I have been working as a service advisor for about 12 years (currently with BMW for past 4). BMW has been doing direct injection for years and they also have issues with carbon build up. With the amount of ethanol in fuel nowadays; you can still get carbon build up; I would just perform fuel injection cleanings (mine cost me $175) here in TX. I noticed a difference in throttle response after they did the cleaning. I also do fuel additives every 3k miles just to make me feel better. My wife drive a Genesis 5.0 Rspec with direct injection and I always run 93 top tier (www.toptiergas.com (http://www.toptiergas.com)) fuel in her car and still spits out black residue from that nasty fuel.
Only read the first few posts, so this is just my opinion and things I have experience being in the auto. service side of things for past few years.
Steve thanks for your input on such an important matter,does BMW have any new updated pcv system or anything to alleviate the carbon buildup issue,as for Ford there claiming that they have overcome the intake valve carbon buildup and iol coking with a new variable valve timing engines,which leave the intake valve open just a little longer to allow the air/fuel charge from the injector to enter the intake port.Z
No they have not; sorry for delayed response. I would keep using carbon cleaning additives or get it done on a regular basis. Here is a cool website I ran across; they video makes total sense and so does the technicians telling me they would do it a well. http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/ (http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/)
Quote from: stevenmalone on May 14, 2015, 10:30:32 AM
No they have not; sorry for delayed response. I would keep using carbon cleaning additives or get it done on a regular basis. Here is a cool website I ran across; they video makes total sense and so does the technicians telling me they would do it a well. http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/ (http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/)
Thanks for your insight on this matter,guess Ford is stepping up to the plate with the new 15 SHO which has an updated pcv system which consists of an updated baffle built inside the rear valve cover which hopefully will help some. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on May 14, 2015, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: stevenmalone on May 14, 2015, 10:30:32 AM
No they have not; sorry for delayed response. I would keep using carbon cleaning additives or get it done on a regular basis. Here is a cool website I ran across; they video makes total sense and so does the technicians telling me they would do it a well. http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/ (http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/)
Thanks for your insight on this matter,guess Ford is stepping up to the plate with the new 15 SHO which has an updated pcv system which consists of an updated baffle built inside the rear valve cover which hopefully will help some. Z
Really? Wonder if we can retrofit. If it works, it should probably be a TSB for Ford to throw on pre 15 models.
Quote from: J-Will on May 18, 2015, 08:44:42 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on May 14, 2015, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: stevenmalone on May 14, 2015, 10:30:32 AM
No they have not; sorry for delayed response. I would keep using carbon cleaning additives or get it done on a regular basis. Here is a cool website I ran across; they video makes total sense and so does the technicians telling me they would do it a well. http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/ (http://www.automoblog.net/2014/10/06/fuel-system-cleaners-review/)
Thanks for your insight on this matter,guess Ford is stepping up to the plate with the new 15 SHO which has an updated pcv system which consists of an updated baffle built inside the rear valve cover which hopefully will help some. Z
Really? Wonder if we can retrofit. If it works, it should probably be a TSB for Ford to throw on pre 15 models.
There is a tsb.....
I have not received anything in the mail; my car was just at the dealership, and they didnt mention anything.
TSBs are not mailed to the owners, the dealerships are supposed to keep an uptodate list of those. Only recalls (AFAIK) are mailed out. Checking http://owner.ford.com (http://owner.ford.com) will tell you if there's anything applicable to your vehicle, but won't give you access to all TSBs across all years for instance. That you have to subscribe to a service like Mitchell or AllData etc.
For those doing the carbon cleaning route (additives), ate you concerned about the high heat the process generates to get rid of the carbon build up? That high heat passes through the turbos, and I would think that is not good for the components of the turbos.
I just pulled the intake manifold and cleaned them by hand with AMSOIL Power Foam. Came out pretty good.
Got any pics? Did you use a nylon bristle brush or something stronger?
Quote from: SHOdded on July 24, 2015, 11:12:15 PM
Got any pics? Did you use a nylon bristle brush or something stronger?
Pics won't upload and I hate the damn extra crap you have to do for Verification. Anyway. I used screwdrivers, pics and whatever could reach in there. Shop-Vac to clean up along the way. Crappy photobucket pics...
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/marvinmadman/20150620_130914.jpg) (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/marvinmadman/media/20150620_130914.jpg.html)
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/marvinmadman/20150620_184952.jpg) (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/marvinmadman/media/20150620_184952.jpg.html)(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/marvinmadman/Mobile%20Uploads/20150620_133024.jpg) (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/marvinmadman/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150620_133024.jpg.html)
I honestly always considered and wondered how effective it would be using plain oil natural h2o(water)then removing the intake manifold and using a portable heavy duty clothes steamer with a built in hose attached to it,if proven effective could be a safer alternative than using harsh chemicals and brushes,only a thought which i had for quite sometime now. Z
When we were putting the engineers through the ringer with our in depth questions at the Ford assembly plant in Chicago.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/22323d9efd9ece50766c697a7dafbd1f.jpg)
There came a time when it was open suggestion time for improvements we'd like to see on futures SHO'S. With the usual suggestions we've all talked about, I asked about a Ford approved cleaning/service regimen for us to follow or come to them to have done.
The wife pointed out that this was the one time the lead engineer on the drive-train stopped his actions and searched for a pen and paper to write it down....fingers crossed.
Rich
Good question, hope they come up with something! Nice to see a Gen I Edge in the lot as well.
Quote from: SHOnUup on July 26, 2015, 08:47:38 AM
When we were putting the engineers through the ringer with our in depth questions at the Ford assembly plant in Chicago.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/26/22323d9efd9ece50766c697a7dafbd1f.jpg)
There came a time when it was open suggestion time for improvements we'd like to see on futures SHO'S. With the usual suggestions we've all talked about, I asked about a Ford approved cleaning/service regimen for us to follow or come to them to have done.
The wife pointed out that this was the one time the lead engineer on the drive-train stopped his actions and searched for a pen and paper to write it down....fingers crossed.
Rich
Maybe they'll come up with something... Thanks for getting the problem some air time in a good forum. Wish they would just add a PFI in tandem with the GDI like they did on the new Ford GT... Plenty of fuel to do it. Maybe even tune it to 600 CHP like they did in that application while their at it!
That was another of my suggestions...lol
Dual fueling, it got a good grin...so who knows
Rich
Just run dual fueling now.😏
Damn, I wish I knew there was gonna be a q&a......
I'd like to know what happened between the twin force and ecoboost that they removed the e85 rating and the extra ponies that came with it....
I enjoyed watching the engineers squirm a lil bit as well.
But kudos to each of them as they did put forth their best efforts while simultaneously trying to pass off the hot potato to the next engineer they summoned elsewhere from within the bowels of the plant.
With each subsequent engineer that entered the room, the look of shock and bewilderment intensified.
Ha! Great stuff for sure!
Although I did notch it back a psi or two (or three, or four) and did my best to attempt bridging the divide so to speak, between not only our concerns and wishes, but also between their obvious intentional self imposed censorship for fear of receiving 'x' amount of canings from Corporate Personnel, I agree we did leave them with lots to discuss and think about.
FMC was gracious in their time & presented each of the attendees with a rewarding, memorable experience for sure.
Top notch. I for one was happy learning that the SHO, even though not a true stellar sales producer in the sense, is still very much on the radar from what I gathered, & is continuing on.