Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => Troubleshooting, Maintenance, TSB Articles => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: abs on March 23, 2019, 05:52:12 PM

Title: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 23, 2019, 05:52:12 PM
My Ford Flex has a remanufactured Ford 3.5L ecoboost engine in it with about 40k miles on it.  The original engine failed horribly at about 105k due to a water pump seal failure dumping coolant into the original engine.  This new/reman engine is making a knocking noise and I can't figure out what it is.  I do not know if the reman engine has the upgraded timing chain or not, it was installed in 2014.

I just posted a video to YouTube, please watch it and let me know if you can identify what the sound is:

https://youtu.be/WUqRevmQ1hc

The engine is running pretty good, pulls hard under full throttle.  It is not leaking coolant that I can see and the degas bottle shows full, I haven't needed to top it off or refill it.  The sound is coming from the front of the engine, it seems to be coming from the middle/top of the timing chain cover.  I have new plugs in it and the engine is not misfiring (checked with Mode 6 in Forscan).  I've also run fuel injector cleaner for a few tanks of gas and I do not believe I have a fuel issue.  My fuel rail pressures meet factory spec.  When I listen to the sound of each of the camshaft phasers by putting my ear to a long screwdriver, the front phaser sounds different than the rear one, but neither one sounds like its knocking.  I've also heard the sound of failed cam phasers in other YouTube videos, this sound is different.

I'm thinking the sound could be from a worn water pump bearing allowing the pump impeller to hit the engine block.  It could also be the timing chain itself knocking around due to a damaged tensioner, guide or chain stretch.  It could also be a piston wrist pin or connecting rod.  If anyone can confirm what this sound is would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: CroR1 on March 24, 2019, 01:31:59 PM
Sounds like lifters, too. Have you tried Lucas oil stabilizer?  If not, add some and see if it makes difference.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 24, 2019, 02:48:38 PM
Yeah, a heavier weight oil might help.  Are you running 5W20 or 5W30 currently?  5W30 is recommended unless the remanned engine specifically said to use 5W20.  I would try 5W30 anyway LOL.

I would suspect timing components myself, maybe slack in the chains/tensioner involvement.  If you track via PIDs, see if there are VCT related PIDs, check them while the engine is idling like in the video.  A certain degree of error is tolerable, but usually should be near zero at idle.  If there is rattle at startup, that would add weight to the timing hypothesis.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 24, 2019, 08:46:28 PM
Thanks all for the replies.  I've been running 5w-30 full synthetic oils since the reman engine went in.  I do use Forscan and I've noticed a minor error in the camshaft timing, but I don't recall the % error off-hand.  I'll check that and post back here. 

It is hard to determine the source of that sound, but to me, it really does seem like it is coming from the area of the timing cover where the water pump is located, just below the engine mount.  I have seen videos where the plastic vanes on the water pump were damaged, broken and sheared off, from the pump bearing failing and the vanes knocking into the block.  I wonder if that is what could be happening here?

The EB has solid bucket style valve actuators, I'm not really sure how this noise could be caused by them unless a valve lash is really out of adjustment and needs a new bucket actuator to tighten it up, but with only 40k miles, I wonder if that is a realistic possibility?

I do not suffer from any meaningful startup rattle - I know that sound from my original engine and also from many videos.  At this moment, my engine does not suffer from it . . . However, that does not mean there couldn't be some other problem with the timing system.

Please keep the ideas coming as I have to decide my next step for diagnosing what is happening.  I'm not looking forward to pulling the timing chain cover, but I'll do that if I have to.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 25, 2019, 09:57:35 AM
While we wait for responses, I was thinking of possibly bringing this up with Ford/Ford Engineering directly.  This IS a ford remanned engine right?  They may be able to help you technically, if not financially.

A new water pump should have been installed with a remanned engine.  Yes, the vanes can break, not at all frequent, but it can happen.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on March 25, 2019, 08:39:58 PM
Do you monitor/log knock retard?
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: Macgyver on March 25, 2019, 09:57:20 PM
2 suggestions.

First:

A pulley is knocking. What is the main belt like? etc.

Second:

Phaser(s) failed. Maybe causing the belt to slacken.

Different motors but maybe useful videos.

https://youtu.be/OFhvUFtnBCk

https://youtu.be/iEBic0fEZ78

Watch them and see what you think.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 28, 2019, 07:48:27 AM
All -

Thank you for the feedback, it's been a crazy work week, and I haven't had a chance to get back to do additional testing yet.  However, the engine is out of warranty as it was installed in 2014 so past the warranty time limit. 

In terms of next steps, I will take off the belt to see if the noise is from the belt tensioner, alternator or a/c compressor.  I suppose if I pull the valve covers I could check the lifter gaps and see if maybe that is the issue.  This engine does not have hydraulic lifters so the entire valve train setup is fairly straightforward.  I also do have the ability to monitor knock, and I've looked at briefly in the past but didn't notice anything unusual with timing retard.  It also occurred to me that I should inspect the rear turbo for noise.  I installed a used turbo there about 5k miles ago.

The one thing I am most worried about is if this could be due to a cracked piston skirt.  I was able to find some references/posts related to Youtube videos where that seemed to be the diagnosis for an engine with a similar noise.

I'll post more over the weekend.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: Macgyver on March 28, 2019, 08:22:29 PM
I will put money on the phaser. Fordmako is seldom wrong. Haha.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 28, 2019, 09:00:00 PM
I've carefully reviewed all of FordTechMakuloco's videos as well as other videos with failing cam phasers on Ford vehicles, and in every case I could find, the sound of the bad phaser was very consistent and repetitive.  The sound on my car is much more intermittent. 

Tonight I went out with the mechanic's stethoscope and poked around the top of the engine with it.  The knock sound is not detectable on or around any part of either valve cover.  It is also not detectable along the top of the block in between the valve cover and where the aluminum intake bolts down, except for at the timing chain side of the engine in the V near the engine mount, where the sound is noticeable on both heads.  It does not sound louder or quieter on either side.  Checking below the engine mount and getting closer to the water pump mount location, the sound intensity increases.  I can also hear the sound on the side of the rear head (firewall side) towards the bottom of that head.  I also checked the front exhaust manifold where it bolts to the head and there were no irregular noises.  I listened to the mounting bracket for the rear turbo and did not hear the noise which I think rules out the rear turbo.  Disconnecting the power to the variable camshaft actuators made no change.  I did notice that when I put my hand on the electrical connector for the front cam phaser actuator, that the there was a lot of pulsing/vibration, but the rear actuator did not have the same feeling.  Also, the noise is also still there at higher RPM's, but much harder to detect as other noises tend to swamp it out. 

At this point, I am leaning toward one of the following possibilities:

- Water Pump rattling and perhaps in early stages of failure
- Cam Phaser(s) or actuators
- Damage chain guides
- Damaged piston skirt on cylinder #1 or #4

Also, I remembered that for my last oil change, I used Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30 plus a quart of Mobil1 10w-30.  At operating temps, this oil should not be any thinner than the OEM spec 5W-20, but perhaps the oil has something to do with it.  I could easily do a quick oil change to a 10W-30 and see if it makes a difference.

I think my next step is to perform the oil change and also get under the car and make sure the noise is not louder at the oil pan or lower end of the engine.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: ZSHO on March 29, 2019, 05:29:37 AM
I think SHOdded was Spot on ^^^

Stick to what the oil cap says!
The engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM! Z


Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: TopherSho on March 29, 2019, 10:21:10 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on March 29, 2019, 05:29:37 AM
I think SHOdded was Spot on ^^^

Stick to what the oil cap says!
The engines MUST have the right weight-viscosity of engine oil. The PCM opens up valves to control the cam phasers based on the correct oil. Too heavy or too light and the cam phaser will over-react or under-react. The VCT phaser not responding correctly to the PCM! Z

I am going to also agree.  Mixing oil on some cars doesn't seem to matter.  But for others it generates unexpected results.  My old mildy built g35 was the same way.  After dropping nismo cams and a head rebuild and a orsis tune the builder SWORE by 0-20/5-30 hybrid .. keep throwing p0340 on hard rapid accelerations in the summer.. switched back to 5-30 and it was fine. 


drop back to oem oil, drop the tune to stock drive normal for 500 miles and retest with the oem tune.

EDIT :: no additives, of any kind if you want extra metals for film strength go with royal purple oils.  just don't add any gunk.   
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 29, 2019, 04:56:58 PM
ZSHO and TOPHERSHO:

I appreciate your feedback but I started laughing reading both of your posts.  I would agree that there can be some differences in engine performance based on viscosity, primarily fuel economy as a function of HTHS.  However, I hope you both realize that even a 0W weight oil is much much much more viscous at cold temperatures than a 30, 40 or even 50 weight oil at operating temperature?  Also, do you realize that the difference in oil performance at operating temperature between a 20, 30 or 40 weight oil is very, very small?  Also, you know that oil can shear down and thin out over time as it's used and from oil dilution so much so that a 30 can become a 20 and so on?  All of this points to one thing:  The PCM is perfectly capable of adjusting the cam phaser performance for a variety of oil flow rates and viscosities.  Also, keep in mind that for the 2011 MY, Ford spec'd a 5w-30 oil even though nothing in the engine changed from 2010 to 2011 . . . I'm fairly certain that the oil is not actually the cause of the noise I've been experiencing, but I'm willing to do an oil change to see if it makes a difference.  Oh, one other thing, this engine is not tuned . . .
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 29, 2019, 05:19:47 PM
Well, best of luck, hopefully you can figure out what actually is the matter with the engine.  As for whether the engine changed internally or not, only an insider can tell us that for sure.  My feeling is better fuel dilution handling, but it could be something else as well.  Many changes do not make it to part number updates or to the catalogs.

Viscosities are a dubious area, but if you are willing to experiment, more power to you.  Whenever we ask for documented results of these types of things, such as a used oil analysis done consistently over a period of time, it has been crickets.  So if others' opinions holds no weight with you, that is OK.  But please, be courteous in your response.  You trust your experience, others trust theirs too!
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: ZSHO on March 29, 2019, 05:59:57 PM
Quote from: abs on March 29, 2019, 04:56:58 PM
ZSHO and TOPHERSHO:

I appreciate your feedback but I started laughing reading both of your posts.  I would agree that there can be some differences in engine performance based on viscosity, primarily fuel economy as a function of HTHS.  However, I hope you both realize that even a 0W weight oil is much much much more viscous at cold temperatures than a 30, 40 or even 50 weight oil at operating temperature?  Also, do you realize that the difference in oil performance at operating temperature between a 20, 30 or 40 weight oil is very, very small?  Also, you know that oil can shear down and thin out over time as it's used and from oil dilution so much so that a 30 can become a 20 and so on?  All of this points to one thing:  The PCM is perfectly capable of adjusting the cam phaser performance for a variety of oil flow rates and viscosities.  Also, keep in mind that for the 2011 MY, Ford spec'd a 5w-30 oil even though nothing in the engine changed from 2010 to 2011 . . . I'm fairly certain that the oil is not actually the cause of the noise I've been experiencing, but I'm willing to do an oil change to see if it makes a difference.  Oh, one other thing, this engine is not tuned . . .
How many miles since your last oil change! FYI- Dirty oil alone,specifically oil that has depleted the anti-foam additives will cause a slight delay in the response of the cam phasers!!
Change the oil and see if your issues goes away and report back.

There's No need to get snarky and simply trying to help a fellow member out that's all! Z
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 29, 2019, 07:01:31 PM
All -

Apologies if my response came across the wrong way, I do appreciate everyone's input and I am thankful for the responses and the help.  I want to solve this issue and maybe help some other ecoboost owners in the process too!

For those interested in learning more about motor oil, the website forum at www.bobistheoilguy.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com) is really good.  There are UOAs available for ecoboost engines posted on the site as well as lots of discussion about the impact of different viscosities and other oil attributes.  I highly recommend the site and I have spent countless hours researching all kinds of fluids there.  I've also started ecoboost specific threads regarding oil options on that site in past. 

I did recently change the oil, just about 1500 miles ago, but I also ran a few rounds of fuel injector cleaner on multiple tanks of fuel which may have consumed some/much of the additives.  I'll change the oil and report back if there is any change.  To be honest, it would be great if this solves the problem since it's a very easy fix.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 30, 2019, 07:45:15 AM
Fingers crossed :)  What fuel injector cleaner did you use, and was it used in consecutive tanks? 

As a general rule, if you use a stronger cleaner such as Techron Concentrate Plus or BG 44K or Redline etc., even though they do not state to change the oil after, my advice is to err on the side of caution.  Change the oil after that tank is done.  Why?  Dealing with unknowns.  We never have any idea how much cushion we have after a servicing is done.  And to me, changing oil/filter is a no-brainer way after each cleaning to avoid complications.

I have found benefit from adding TC-W3 oil or Lucas UCL/FIC to the tank for every run in wintertime.  Some use MMO.  In the small quantities stated (4.5-5oz per tank), they will do no harm.  The benefit is cleaning AND lubrication for the injectors, especially good if you run E blend fuels.

BTW, there are a few stalwarts on BITOG (DuckRyder, Subie, etc) that know what they are talking about, but really very few yet that understand boosted/Ecoboost engines.  The sheer misinformed (though wellmeaning) analysis of fuel in the oil blows my mind.  And yet many others that do not understand the engine breakin process does NOT have the same effect on every engine line across all the manufacturers in the world.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 30, 2019, 10:11:44 AM
Since my last oil change I ran a tank of LiquiMoly Jektron cleaner and a second tank with Redline Fuel System cleaner, they were not run back to back but with only one normal tank in-between.  I agree that these cleaners could have had an effect on the oil and might be part of what is happening.

There are some other very knowledgeable folks on that BITOG board including Molekule and Chatterham.  Having said that, the quality of some of the content on that board has declined as more people have begun to participate.  I've been an active member there for many years and I've noted the changes . . . It is important to discern what is real versus hyperbole and what is fact based versus assumption at this point.

For a period of time I was regularly running Lucas UCL or MMO in my Flex, but eventually I stopped.  I've never tried the TC-W3 although I've read good things.  By the way some very interesting tests of combustion chamber cleaners which you might enjoy watching here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdz6BMj8EA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdz6BMj8EA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyin2n24X8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyin2n24X8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX-h62PUu0o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX-h62PUu0o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOCvfQD8Tqk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOCvfQD8Tqk)
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 30, 2019, 10:22:37 AM
Yes, I am familiar with Project Farm, have watched a LOT of his videos. also watched Chris Fix, fordTechMakuloco, Scotty Kilmer, south main auto, there is no shortage of consumption on my part LOL.  Also spent plenty of time talking to formulators at oil companies, ultimately they are obliged not to say anything pertinent or I am bound not to.  I read technical papers published by reaserchers, independent or otherwise.  I can name many other knowledgeable people at BITOG as well, but I dont.  The problem is, none of this is really first hand knowledge.  But the cleaners I have mentioned, I DO have 1st hand experience with, so that is what I talk about. 

Anyhoo, sorry for rambling on.  Lets see if we can get the issues with your ride resolved :)
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 30, 2019, 10:31:41 AM
SHOdded -

Thanks for the comments.  Sounds like we have conducted similar research. 

I was able to find another YouTube videos where an EB has a more or less identical sound to what mine is doing.  The video below is of a nearly brand new Lincoln with EB and by around 2:50 mark, the sound is pretty much identical to my engine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXnRUe0rCRs&t=0s&index=2&list=FLZcSjv-VH4qERqjiwqHuBfg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXnRUe0rCRs&t=0s&index=2&list=FLZcSjv-VH4qERqjiwqHuBfg)


Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on March 30, 2019, 11:22:33 AM
Hmmm.  5W20, it is not going to be an ecoboost on an MKX.  All ecoboosts on the Edge/MKX were 5W30 from the start.

Regardless, these engines are noisy to begin with.  Once you take the cover off, OH BOY!  I know Ford had issued TSBs on the naturally aspirated 3.5/3.7 due to noise, and there were some cam cap modifications involved IIRC.  Other than that, Ford has made no mention of anything related to engine noise in particular.

Doesn't sound like belt tensioner noise either.  At least mine sounded like cards in spinning bicycle spokes, and only on cold startups on cold days.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 30, 2019, 04:52:18 PM
Okay more information.  I changed the oil today, I decided to go with and OEM FL500S filter and 5W-30 oil.  I also pulled the #1 and #4 spark plugs.  They have only been in the car for about 1,500 miles, but they both had a lot of carbon build up around the bottom of the threaded part of the plug, but otherwise looked fine.  I further investigated the noise while the car was up on ramps.  Using the mechanics stethoscope, the noise is loudest on the timing cover and on the oil pan.  It really isn't detectable from the valve covers.   It is noticeable on the timing cover in front of both heads.  I've also pulled the power to each ignition coil, one by one, for every cylinder, and the noise did not go away or change.  The sound does not appear to be emanating from the accessory tensioner, alternator or compressor.

I think that if it were a single cam phaser causing the noise, I'd expect the sound to be much louder on one side than the other and it isn't.  I'm beginning to narrow this down to the water pump, timing chain guide, a piston (cracked skirt), wrist pin or crank bearing.  The sound is clearly radiating through the block as I can hear it loudly through the aluminum oil pan.  I still feel that the water pump is the number 1 most likely culprit, but I'm not sure.  I'm open for ideas of what tests I can do to further isolate this.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: Macgyver on March 30, 2019, 11:19:41 PM
No cross contamination in the oil obviously.

Will be interesting to find out the cause of the knock.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on March 30, 2019, 11:34:17 PM
ABS- I asked if you were monitoring KR, I never saw a response.

I asked because I had my entire timing set rebuilt under warranty. The only reason I caught it before the engine grenaded is because I started seeing KR at levels and places it shouldn't be.

For example, I would see +7 right off idle without boost.

There were NO issues at WOT either.

Interesting sidenote....KR pretty much doesn't exist since everything was rebuilt. The last 3 months the max KR logged was .79 with 15PSI and high 20s WOT spark. I was actually surprised at the .79 because prior to that, .09 was the max for a while. Since I reset the maxes its back to .09


Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on March 31, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
 FoMoCoSHO - I'll check for knock once I get the engine back together.

I decided to pull all the spark plugs today and also conduct a compression test.  The plugs look generally okay, the ones closes to the intake have more soot on them than the rest,but none were in terrible shape.

Compression results (tested with a cold engine and all plugs out):

Cylinder 1 = 200 psi
Cylinder 2 = 195 psi
Cylinder 3 = 187 psi
Cylinder 4 = 194 psi
Cylinder 5 = 190 psi
Cylinder 6 = 192 psi

I believe these are acceptable results, any feedback will be appreciated.

Next, I am going to rotate the engine, bringing each piston to TDC, and check each for any bearing play or movement.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: ZSHO on March 31, 2019, 05:31:10 PM
Quote from: abs on March 30, 2019, 04:52:18 PM
Okay more information.  I changed the oil today, I decided to go with and OEM FL500S filter and 5W-30 oil.  I also pulled the #1 and #4 spark plugs.  They have only been in the car for about 1,500 miles, but they both had a lot of carbon build up around the bottom of the threaded part of the plug, but otherwise looked fine.  I further investigated the noise while the car was up on ramps.  Using the mechanics stethoscope, the noise is loudest on the timing cover and on the oil pan.  It really isn't detectable from the valve covers.   It is noticeable on the timing cover in front of both heads.  I've also pulled the power to each ignition coil, one by one, for every cylinder, and the noise did not go away or change.  The sound does not appear to be emanating from the accessory tensioner, alternator or compressor.

I think that if it were a single cam phaser causing the noise, I'd expect the sound to be much louder on one side than the other and it isn't.  I'm beginning to narrow this down to the water pump, timing chain guide, a piston (cracked skirt), wrist pin or crank bearing.  The sound is clearly radiating through the block as I can hear it loudly through the aluminum oil pan.  I still feel that the water pump is the number 1 most likely culprit, but I'm not sure.  I'm open for ideas of what tests I can do to further isolate this.
I would give it a couple key off cycles before any notable changes to the cam phasers itself!
Hmm! I thought you mentioned on your initial post the front phaser sounds different than the rear one!

Has the sound of the phasers changed any! TOL. Z
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on April 02, 2019, 03:55:20 PM
Well, I have been unable to determine the source of the noise so it went to my local Ford dealer today to diagnose the sound.  It does not appear to be emanating from the cam phasers and it does not sound like the cam phasers based on other videos I've seen.  It also does not make the sound when cold, but is very noticeable when hot.  I did hear somewhat of a variance in the sound of the phasers themselves and the vibration of the actuators from one head to the other, but I would be surprised if that is what is causing the sound.  Using the mechanics ears/stethoscope, I could clearly hear the noise at the oil pan (down its length) and middle of the timing chain cover.  I have seen some videos on YouTube where a similar sound was determined to be a damaged piston skirt.  So, I'm pretty sure it will be one of the following:  water pump, piston skirt, piston wrist pin, piston rod bearing, or crankshaft mains.  The engine has never run low on oil and has always been maintained with synthetic oils so I'm really hoping it is not a bearing, wrist pin or skirt.  If it is the water pump, I guess I'll be going in to replace the pump, guides, chains, tensioners and pump . . .
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on April 02, 2019, 04:52:53 PM
When they figure out what is wrong, and it is internal to the block, you may want to bring in Ford Customer Service.  After all, it is a remanned block and should last WAY longer than the warranty period.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on April 07, 2019, 11:39:34 AM
Latest updates:

Brought the car to my local Ford dealer to have them evaluate it. Same as me, they were unable to identify what specifically was causing the noise. They think it could be piston slap, a wrist pin or a bearing. Their feedback was just drive it, it could last another 50k miles or more despite the noise. They tried shutting down cylinders and noted, as did I when I did the same test, that there was no change in the engine noise. To me this is a key fact! Piston slap, a wrist pin or a bearing should all change sound when the cylinder is de-activated. I asked them if it could be the water pump. The feedback was they didn't think so because they believe that the pump would be leaking coolant badly if the bearing was starting to fail allowing the impeller to hit the block.

Now, having said all that, I still think it could potentially be the water pump. My recollection is that the area of the block that the pump fits into is fairly small. The pump impeller, to work properly, has to have a tight tolerance with the surrounding enclosure in the block to allow the pump to actually work and move coolant. Also, a bearing failure can occur in different ways, for example maybe there is movement in the z-axis along the impeller shaft allowing the impeller to hit the metal directly in front of it and not necessarily the metal around it . . . One other interesting note, for the first time since I've had the rebuilt engine installed, I heard the famous "startup rattle" yesterday. I think this could be further evidence of a water pump bearing starting to fail.

I've also thought this through and there are three additional scenarios that could potentially be causing the noise: 1) An oil pump problem, 2) a cracked piston skirt where part of the piston actually broke off and dropped into the oil pan or 3) a cracked/damaged timing guide knocking around inside the timing chain cover. As part of my diagnostics, I did an oil change to see if there would be any change in the engine noise and there was not. However, I did run the oil from that most recent oil change through a fine mesh screen (one used for straining automotive spray paint) to see if there were any noticeable metal or plastic bits in the oil, and there were none.

I'm open to recommendations on this, but I think my next step is to pull the front valve cover and see if there is noticeable play in the timing chain coming up from the water pump and to the bank 2 camshaft actuator.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on April 07, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
At best, you could surmise issues with the guide/tensioner causing slack in the timing chain.  Shouldn't stretch this early, but could be.  The water pump being affected would be secondary to this scenario, not primary.  Regardless, if one or the other is the cause, in for a penny in for a pound.  Go in to replace WP, replace timing components.  Go in to replace timing components, replace WP.

If you are ok with pulling the VCs, I suppose you could tell if there is slack in the chains, whether from stretch or due to a faulty guide.

I would definitely make sure to use filters constructed similarly to the MC with relation to the ADBV to minimize the issue of oil starvation at startup.  An ester based full synthetic oil would not hurt either.  Beyond that, it is down to timing components I think.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: Macgyver on April 07, 2019, 09:04:02 PM
Blackstone for an oil analysis ? Maybe tell what parts are wearing ?
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on July 07, 2019, 10:33:16 PM
So, I haven't been driving the Flex due to the unknown engine noise. I picked up a 2007 Lexus LS460 to drive in the meantime. However, I am back to trying to determine what could be wrong and found this video which clearly shows the same noise as my engine. They claim it is from a faulty timing chain tensioner, can anyone verify this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVMj-zfJm5M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVMj-zfJm5M)
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on July 07, 2019, 11:17:36 PM
abs, I sent you an email...
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: abs on July 11, 2019, 01:26:17 PM
FoMoCoSHO - Thanks very much for the note you sent.

To provide everyone an update on the situation, I have concluded that the knocking noise I am hearing was not due to the water pump, but actually due to the cam phasers knocking at idle.  The fact that the noise only occurs once the engine starts to warm up (and the oil thins out) and also only at low RPMs (under around 1,000 rpm), are both very good indicators that the sound is actually from the cam phaser lock pin making noise while seated.  The noise goes away when slightly off idle. 

After watching and listening to lots of YouTube videos of cam phaser issues on different Ford engines, it's now fairly clear to me that this is the sound I've been hearing.  What I can't explain is why the Ford techs at my local dealer were unable to make that diagnosis since this is something they probably see (and hear) on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
Post by: SHOdded on July 11, 2019, 05:07:18 PM
maybe ask to talk to a tech that works on f150s regularly?  or anyone with 5.4 3V experience?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YFOxIZEWZM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YFOxIZEWZM)
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