Ecoboost Performance Forum

During hard acceleration it sputtered/backfired-ish right at the 2nd gear shift... and threw that code after i let off for the 2nd gear shift to finish.   now is missing for sure on two cylinders.

Either i fouled the plugs (but two at the *exact same time* seems unlikely)
Or it smashed the valves..
Or it backfired and killed a turbo and sucked it through the block..

UPDATE:  or a fuel injector #2 dumped fuel during my on ramp run and physics kindly/explosively placed my rings in the pan ... /eyeroll/

2/3 odds this car is now beyond repair :( .. i cannot afford a new engine right now.. or any time soon.

/ugh/

expecting the worst on this one.

Sorry to hear :(  Sounds like compression loss or fuel injectors.  If compression loss, could be multiple reasons, but a nused block is the practical solution.  Injectors - not too bad to replace.

Could be 2 plugs failed, may not be common, but there is always an exception.  What plugs are you running?

Oem plugs..

Compression test time!


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Two adjacent plugs are wet with oil and gas. (rear back passenger and middle) not a good sign.  all the plugs are out,  off to get 7 sp-534's and drop them back and and cross my fingers.

all remaining plugs were perfect as far as i could tell.  no impact damage from debris so turbos are not scattered which was my 1st horror show thought.

this leaves 'fouled on backfire with meth',  or 'bad head gasket'. 

question, if the cylinder smashed the valves would the plugs be intact?

verdict == bad.  new plugs, issue same.

So bad gasket from some sort of over pressurization issue when it backfired and stumbled.  if it were valves I imagine it would backfire under light load,  which it does not do or spit crap out the exhaust.. 

but the presence of oil  on the plug concerns me.  I have a fear we cracked a sleeve as a worst case scenario. 

off to the worst dealership i have ever seen.

Quote from: TopherSho on March 09, 2019, 05:39:17 PM
off to the worst dealership i have ever seen.

:(


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Fuel should only be a leaky injector, oil is likely from blowby unless the intercooler is filled with crud (has happened). Oil could be leaky turbos also, simple enough to pull the hoses and check.  Air flow for bank 1 does not have the same characteristics as bank 2, plus bank 1 runs hotter anyway due to location.  Fingers crossed it is a combo of injector and PCV/intercooler, probably the simplest/cheapest fixes. 

It would have to be 2 injectors failing side by side at the exact same time .. so I'm not so hopeful. 

I do live out here in Oregon so gunk in the intercooler is pretty common that might explain the oil.. but in not convinced.  it was more than a spattering.. it was a solid dark film.

I'm pretty confident it's a head gasket with the side by side bad plugs, but there could be more going on in those cylinders.  *one* of them for sure had some extreme pressure issues. 

i will check on the costs of replacing the gasket .. but since this is the rear bank i just don't see fixing it any time soon.  i imagine the engine will need to come out and i am not capable of this depth of work. 

Find someone to swap the coils off of and try.  There has been issues with coils failing from time to time and that would cause a missfire.  I would start there.  I just had the p0300 but that was my fault because I forgot to plug a connector in on the trans side of the engine after changing the water pump and timing chain.  All was well after plugging back in.

Sadly I did swap the coils around,. Same two cylinders come back fuel soaked and oily. 🤤

Before you do anything else at all do a compression check it will tell you more than guess work that is being done sofar.  With the symptoms and things you have said I would do compression and leakdown before I spent a single dime on plugs or anything else.

That car is killin you bro, stop throwing parts $ at it, $ on tools like compression tester are well spent for any future cars.  plus you should be able to borrow one from Orielly's for free.

Crossin fingers for you man

I was curious where did you install the Check valve for Meth! 
Keep your chin up Bro! Z

May or may not help, but could be timing related
https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/2016-non-pp-random-misfire-issues-check-engine-light-help-please.138623/page-2#post-1506213

or have carbon buildup on the intake valves causing them to stick.  Kinda goes along with Z's thinking about the meth injection, and maybe not enough spray reaching those cylinders.  Yea, long shot, I know.

The Forum is being super slow and not loading on my phone or pc,  so i will reply here an not with the reply-qoute buttons :P

We will do a compression check prior to pulling the motor.  I am taking it to my old mechanic and there going to do the job 1500$ cheaper *IF* it is just a gasket. So we will do a compression check, and if it fails as expected we will go from there and pull the motor.

I had the valves cleaned prior to meth installation at around 50k miles.   I saw numerous valve caking complaints so i did have them blasted once.  car has 20k more miles now, about 15k with plenty of meth.

The check valve is in the last 24 inches of hose,  right before the nozzel, it is a #5 devils own, about 700ml flow, nets me .80 stft readings on hard acceleration.

spark plugs looked amazing,  i had to change them at 60k due to the one step colder being a issue,  the ones i pulled that were the replacements were super clean front and back except for the two wet/oiled ones.

gasket questions.  what gasket am i going to use? is there a better gasket than the oem replacement to go with?  Rockauto had a few .. but it has been years (or 20) since i have done headwork (nova/mustang days)

I would stick with the Oem Motorcrafts as far as gaskets IMO! Don't need the slightest imperfections when compared to some aftermarket brands. Z

https://parts.levittownfordparts.com/auto-parts/2011/ford/taurus/sho-trim/3-5l-v6-gas-engine/engine-cat/engine-scat

Yup, OEM.  VC gaskets may be a bit suspect compared to head gaskets, but overall quite reliable.

I dunno if Livernois has upgrades for the gaskets + ARP studs available separately from the big block package.  Could ask them maybe.

ok oems it will be if that's all that is wrong.  as always .. thnx everyone

*if* the issues is just the head gasket.. should i do a water pump? Cars at 70k..

Quote from: TopherSho on March 13, 2019, 10:19:43 PM
*if* the issues is just the head gasket.. should i do a water pump? Cars at 70k..

If you have it tore down that far than I would forsure.  And check the timing chain as well for stretch.  see how many clicks the tensioner is out

It is in the shop for the 900$ 'diagnosis'  ... sigh 

*IF* we can be sure the cylinders are fine; and the heads are fine; and that we can do both head gaskets with the water pump for 3000$ that's what will happen.  This is the last repair though.

Did you do the compression test?

Quote from: jman on March 25, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Did you do the compression test?

They will do it.  I don't want to deal with it ..

Best of luck!

Quote from: SHOdded on March 25, 2019, 03:08:15 PM
Best of luck!

I am so confused.  This car makes no sense ...  all three bank1 injectors are leaking.  how?  ... all at one time INSTANTLY??  makes zero sense.  compression test came out fine.. injector test hard failed on 1,3 and 5 was meh.

I'll take that outcome 100 times before a blown head gasket or damaged valve...

Quote from: TopherSho on March 25, 2019, 08:47:10 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on March 25, 2019, 03:08:15 PM
Best of luck!

I am so confused.  This car makes no sense ...  all three bank1 injectors are leaking.  how?  ... all at one time INSTANTLY??  makes zero sense.  compression test came out fine.. injector test hard failed on 1,3 and 5 was meh.

I give up on trying to understand ... done-zo..baffled...utterly baffled...

Just curious, how many miles are you at? And do you do any regular fuel system cleaning?

After my stuck injector (around 34k miles maybe?), I ran 2 stroke oil in every tank for 2 years (probably close to 40k miles). Never had a repeat, but stopped with the mix because it was too much of a pain for my wife when we swapped vehicles. I just ran a bottle of Amsoil PI through the last tank. Don't really notice a difference but hoped it might keep the injectors clean. Kinda paranoid now after first failure around 34k miles. Still not sure if the stuff is snake oil or what, but it makes me feel like I'm doing something preventative.


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Quote from: jman on March 25, 2019, 08:49:55 PM
I'll take that outcome 100 times before a blown head gasket or damaged valve...

wierd ... but yeah i guess i will take it.

Quote from: MiWiAu on March 25, 2019, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: TopherSho on March 25, 2019, 08:47:10 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on March 25, 2019, 03:08:15 PM
Best of luck!

I am so confused.  This car makes no sense ...  all three bank1 injectors are leaking.  how?  ... all at one time INSTANTLY??  makes zero sense.  compression test came out fine.. injector test hard failed on 1,3 and 5 was meh.

I give up on trying to understand ... done-zo..baffled...utterly baffled...

Just curious, how many miles are you at? And do you do any regular fuel system cleaning?

After my stuck injector (around 34k miles maybe?), I ran 2 stroke oil in every tank for 2 years (probably close to 40k miles). Never had a repeat, but stopped with the mix because it was too much of a pain for my wife when we swapped vehicles. I just ran a bottle of Amsoil PI through the last tank. Don't really notice a difference but hoped it might keep the injectors clean. Kinda paranoid now after first failure around 34k miles. Still not sure if the stuff is snake oil or what, but it makes me feel like I'm doing something preventative.


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I tend to avoid additives, i did run a bottle of injector cleaner right when i bought it with 45k on it..  ran half a bottle in tank one and the other half in tank 2.  thats it.  im at 70k now

Injectors do fail.

1, 3 are bank 1, 5 is bank 2.

Most people find only 1 bank failing.  Make sure they replace ALL 6.

Quote from: TopherSho on March 25, 2019, 10:44:45 PM
im at 70k now

ETA: Disregard the rest of my reply below. Didn't realize you were 2010, so this probably doesn't apply to you. Sorry, man.

——————————

FWIW, you may want to consider checking your warranty guide (download available online). The fuel injectors may be covered under the 8 year / 80k mile "Emissions Performance Warranty".

I was out of standard warranty (due to time), but the Emissions Warranty covered my injector replacement.

They said they were only authorized to replace the one injector in my case, but if you failed half of them, maybe they will replace them all. Definitely worth asking!

Also, if you're not already at a Ford dealer, and you're inside the emissions performance warranty period, make sure you save the bad parts...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190326/f4e98a09fd432e21982393f1280b9e5d.jpg)

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Have to wonder if that had more to do with your plug fouling than the plug themselves.  I have not heard of anyone else having issues with colder plugs, I know I have not and I live farther north than you do by a few hundred miles.  Could be the fouling was a warning sign of the failing injectors that only showed as an issue when you put colder plugs in?

I agree with SHOdded, make sure they replace them ALL.  I had a buddy up here when I 1st got my SHO.  he had one go, replaced it, then couple months later another failed.  screwed the car up pretty good both times and cost him lot of money having it fixed and torn apart 2x.

Quote from: lamrith on March 26, 2019, 02:22:18 PM
Have to wonder if that had more to do with your plug fouling than the plug themselves.  I have not heard of anyone else having issues with colder plugs, I know I have not and I live farther north than you do by a few hundred miles.  Could be the fouling was a warning sign of the failing injectors that only showed as an issue when you put colder plugs in?

I don't have all my records in front of me for exact mileage, but I bought my XSport used (3 years old) with 28k miles. I swapped out what I assumed to be the OEM plugs at ~30k when I put in my tune. OEM plugs looked good, no signs of fouling, and were replaced with one step colder NGK at the advise of Torrie. I went through a tune with Torrie, then Brad, and had my #2 injector fail at around 34k miles. Only about 4k on the brand new plugs. #2 plug still looked great, other than being wet with fuel. I assumed mine was a random failure. The dealer would only replace the failed unit (under warranty), so I'm still running the original injectors on the other 5 cylinders (45k miles later and no issues... knock on wood), but I think SHOdded indicated earlier that a lot of these failures tend to occur on Bank 1? Makes me wonder if something else is just inherently wonky with the design or assembly process with bank 1 injectors.

Maybe having 3 injectors fail at once could be due to excessive fouling? Regardless, it certainly seems to be a freak failure to have all three go at the same time with no prior warning. I just wonder if it's too much of a stretch to try and compare this to the more "typical" single stuck injector that is seen more commonly?

Quote from: SHOdded on March 26, 2019, 01:17:56 AM
Injectors do fail.

1, 3 are bank 1, 5 is bank 2.

Most people find only 1 bank failing.  Make sure they replace ALL 6.

Yes sir, that was my reply. 

i must have looked at the wrong v6 layout..  its all three back plugs near the fire wall

Now i am a bit sad,  at 70k with the original water pump freaks me out a bit.  i was all set to replace it when the pulled the block.

Quote from: TopherSho on March 26, 2019, 03:18:57 PM

Quote from: SHOdded on March 26, 2019, 01:17:56 AM
Injectors do fail.

1, 3 are bank 1, 5 is bank 2.

Most people find only 1 bank failing.  Make sure they replace ALL 6.

Yes sir, that was my reply. 

i must have looked at the wrong v6 layout..  its all three back plugs near the fire wall

Wow, WTF is up with Bank 1? Do the longitudinal EB in F150 commonly have bank 1 injector issues as well, or is it more of a transverse thing? More heat on the rear bank with transverse mounting?

Have not heard of injector issues on the F150, mostly CAC related stuff.

The transverse manifold is metal and has some baffling IIRC.  Do not know if same is true of the F150.  Could be heatsoak from that as well.

I wholeheartedly Agree with SHOdded and the Rear Bank 1 is where the Heat soak accumulates.Pics of the Hood for reference below. Z

I wonder if any is related to the Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) & (PCM)
Fuel is metered directly into each combustion chamber.Fuel injectors pulse to follow engine firing order,in accordance with engine demand.
PCM controls the opening duration (Pulse width) of the Fuel injectors and maintain optimum exhaust emission control and engine performance for all operating conditions.

miss-diagnosis.  blew#2 rings straight into the pan.   Mechanic thinks the injector failed at load,  filled the cylinder,  phyciscs did the rest.

well so much for this car.  im not putting 7k$ into a car i owe 7k$ on still.  i will just let it rot in the driveway.

Damn dude, sorry to hear that.


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Damn! Sorry to hear TopherSho and quite speechless @ the moment. Z  :(

Very very sorry to hear the bad news Tophersho.  Speechless is right. 

Quote from: ZSHO on March 29, 2019, 06:39:09 PM
Damn! Sorry to hear TopherSho and quite speechless @ the moment. Z  :(

Quote from: 802SHO on March 29, 2019, 08:34:39 PM
Very very sorry to hear the bad news Tophersho.  Speechless is right.

Quote from: MiWiAu on March 29, 2019, 06:22:18 PM
Damn dude, sorry to hear that.

Well i have words for this :P  all naughty.. but also super pissed at myself.  Never once considered the $%^&ing injectors to be a major concern..  but now that i have done some internetz .. big $$ mistake..

At bosh's 1 billion cycle rating *in a perfect lab* it makes tons of sense that it would happen eventually and i should have replaced the freaking pos bastards a year ago. 

Here in the real word with crappy gas, water, and real engine heat and grit i bet that 1 billion cycle rating drops quite a bit.  Add in we race the damn things and poor heat shielding on bank-1 and we can likely take a little more off the remaining duty cycles.   Dirty napkin math says with 16 hours a week driving, and 20% reduction on the rated duty cycles with a assumed 1800-2000 rpm average my injectors probably should have been preventatively replaced about a year ago 'to be safe' under a extreme duty cycle regime. whoops..

#$%^ ..... just ....... $$%%  .... never even looked at them once in the last 35k *hard* driving miles.

7k$ lesson right there.

So the update is this.  Wife said "BS that things sitting idle while we make payments on it,  and NO you cant have a SRT/hellcat.."  so against my (mostly)-BITTER better judgment were going to rebuild it. we will try for a 40-50k long block.. but failing that we're going remanned.

ugh... ugh ugh ugh.  then i have to decide to leave it stock or rod it back out.

Quote from: TopherSho on March 29, 2019, 06:13:17 PM
miss-diagnosis.  blew#2 rings straight into the pan.   Mechanic thinks the injector failed at load,  filled the cylinder,  phyciscs did the rest.

well so much for this car.  im not putting 7k$ into a car i owe 7k$ on still.  i will just let it rot in the driveway.

What exactly will you spend 14 grand on that is even close to your uber low mileage SHO in luxury and performance?

Edit- I see the wife stepped in, lol.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 31, 2019, 01:55:49 AM

Quote from: TopherSho on March 29, 2019, 06:13:17 PM
miss-diagnosis.  blew#2 rings straight into the pan.   Mechanic thinks the injector failed at load,  filled the cylinder,  phyciscs did the rest.

well so much for this car.  im not putting 7k$ into a car i owe 7k$ on still.  i will just let it rot in the driveway.

What exactly will you spend 14 grand on that is even close to your uber low mileage SHO in luxury and performance?

Edit- I see the wife stepped in, lol.

Not only did she step in she opted for a new remanned block out of washington with a 3 year / 100k ..  So i guess were doing that?   I am shocked honestly.  I was ready to let it all go.. but i think shes too used to having two drivable cars.  She still shot down getting a model-3p though :P

So were about 3 weeks out .. to be continued. 

The block and heads and all will be new,  I have also ordered new water pump, and rubber bits and hot pipes.

so dumb question .. I'm REALLY happy with the Brad-tune i had.  And the new block and setup will be 'newer' and prone to LESS pre-igniton and support better timing with less carbon in the cylinders.  do i REALLY need to rebuild my tune from scratch?  If the turbo pressure delta is 'right' (requested and actual), spark is good and not causing knock, and ltft and stft show clean steady numbers would it be safe?

Quote from: TopherSho on April 02, 2019, 01:06:20 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on March 31, 2019, 01:55:49 AM

Quote from: TopherSho on March 29, 2019, 06:13:17 PM
miss-diagnosis.  blew#2 rings straight into the pan.   Mechanic thinks the injector failed at load,  filled the cylinder,  phyciscs did the rest.

well so much for this car.  im not putting 7k$ into a car i owe 7k$ on still.  i will just let it rot in the driveway.

What exactly will you spend 14 grand on that is even close to your uber low mileage SHO in luxury and performance?

Edit- I see the wife stepped in, lol.

Not only did she step in she opted for a new remanned block out of washington with a 3 year / 100k ..  So i guess were doing that?   I am shocked honestly.  I was ready to let it all go.. but i think shes too used to having two drivable cars.  She still shot down getting a model-3p though :P

So were about 3 weeks out .. to be continued. 

The block and heads and all will be new,  I have also ordered new water pump, and rubber bits and hot pipes.

so dumb question .. I'm REALLY happy with the Brad-tune i had.  And the new block and setup will be 'newer' and prone to LESS pre-igniton and support better timing with less carbon in the cylinders.  do i REALLY need to rebuild my tune from scratch?

You verify the reman does not have new water pump?  Just seems that water pump is part of the timing chain setup, so I would think for it to be a longblock with timing gear the pump would be remanned also?  I could be wrong, but I would definitely check that before throwing $ at a new pump.  Make sure they replace all the injectors and do not just throw the working old ones back in when they put it all together.  Some dealers will not do that by default and then you eat another motor in 5k miles...

As for Tune, run it bone stock for a while, couple thousand miles maybe?  After that you will want to talk to Brad, new long block and injectors you need to retune it.  It really is a different motor once done.  Honestly it is not that hard to do over the course of a week while driving to work.  I would log my car on the way to and from work (cold temps in morning, warmer in afternoon) and send him the file soon as I got home.  I usually had new tune before I left for work the next day, rinse repeat.  If no tune the next morning I just would not romp on the car until I heard something back from him about how safe it was.

were keeping the new injectors, i will check on the pump.

I hate re-tuning :( /sigh/  oh well 1st world problems :P

New motor is in, and out of nowhere the wife is forcing the issue with the route-66 warranty company.... Result

My car remains at the shop while she argues the company that tried to refuse to fix my sunscreen and ptu for a week... Sigh.

It's all good ... you will see :)