So late last year @aaron240 and I announced that we were working together to bring a set of 6 piston Wilwood calipers to the SHO market, and after some roadblocks and adjustments we finally have an installed and road worthy product!
Due to our Shelter in Place order in Oklahoma, I've only driven the car about 20 miles since the install, but plan to get some more miles on it today and get some testing.
After several Dragy attempts, my best 60-0 on stock 2013 PP brakes was 2.75 seconds. I wanted to get some numbers with the R1Concepts kit before installing the calipers, but it just didn't happen. Hopefully we'll see that from @Jordan_R soon since he just installed his a few weeks back as well.
We will be offering this in a few different options, but still working on final pricing:
Option 1 - Calipers, BP-20 front pads, Adapters, and SS Lines
Option 2 - Calipers, front and rear pads, adapters, and SS lines
Option 3 - Calipers, front and rear rotors, front and rear pads, adapters, and SS lines
This kit is setup to work with the factory 13.9" rotor dimensions, so any aftermarket rotors will be feasible. We're testing with R1Concepts slotted rotors with their Ceramic pads in the rear, but still working on defining a rear pad that is spec'd well with the friction coefficient of the front pads. While I would recommend Ceramics for track use, I am having no issues so far on the street.
Any questions, feel free to ask. We are working a on pricing discount to do a group buy for the first order, so stay tuned for final pricing!
Looks great! Would love to put a set on my Flex
This is awesome!
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 02, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?
No sir, we did a lot of design work and FEA analysis to ensure the surface area was the same only clamping force was improved.
Drove it again today and she feels great, but had my son with me so couldnt get too squirrely.
This setup designed for use with stock rotor sizes? Or will it require or even be able to use a larger diameter rotor? Surface area just as important as clamping force!
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on April 03, 2020, 07:47:12 PM
This setup designed for use with stock rotor sizes? Or will it require or even be able to use a larger diameter rotor? Surface area just as important as clamping force!
The bracket is designed for stock rotor size. The caliper can be used for up to a 15" rotor, but between the added cost of material and the rotor itself you're looking another $500 for not much added stopping power.
So when would these be available?
Prices for various packages you mentioned?
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on April 07, 2020, 11:24:52 AM
So when would these be available?
Prices for various packages you mentioned?
Given everything going on, I haven't been driving the car near as much as usual (I usually drive 100+ miles a day, but I'm still at half a tank since March 16th). As soon as I can get some aggressive braking checks and measure the changes from stock and then check everything over to ensure no warping or degredation, we'll be releasing final pricing and working on an initial group buy to try to lower costs.
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on April 08, 2020, 02:21:07 AM
Quote from: Dxlnt1 on April 07, 2020, 11:24:52 AM
So when would these be available?
Prices for various packages you mentioned?
Given everything going on, I haven't been driving the car near as much as usual (I usually drive 100+ miles a day, but I'm still at half a tank since March 16th). As soon as I can get some aggressive braking checks and measure the changes from stock and then check everything over to ensure no warping or degredation, we'll be releasing final pricing and working on an initial group buy to try to lower costs.
Fair enough! Thanks!
Hey guys, so quick update. I spoke with my supplier and they are offering an additional incentive if we can get 15-20 sets sold, so I am working up some final pricing, install guides, etc. to be able to do the official launch.
I pulled everything off today to inspect and review, had no issues, bolts were still tight with 242 blue loctite,
We have also spoken with the machine shop producing the adapters and they have offered to toss in free black anodizing on our bulk orders to help with corrosion.
I'll be preparing the final release with pricing, 60-0 comparisons between stock and the Wilwood upgrade, and more shortly.
Any questions, feel free to discuss!
I can't wait!
Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
Best of luck with the group buy!
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 02, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?
Depends on the year and which calipers are used. The Aero 6 (what is designed here) has a caliper that is nearly identical to the stock 2x 47.5mm pistons. Using the 2013+ cars (or converted 10-12 cars) would yield nearly identical brake feel.
The 10-12 cars with stock master cylinder could utilize one of the Aero 4 calipers with the larger brake rotors (the piston area equates nearly identical to going from the early to late master cylinder size)
The pad area of the 150mm long pad on the Aero calipers are essentially the same as on the 2013+ stock brakes.
I am very interested in what the price is going to be, but also interested if the possibility of buying just brackets is an option. Either way, I hope this gets done as it's IMO the way to go.
For those wondering if upgrading to larger rotors is possible...well, it's a radial mount caliper, so just some 1" OD x 7/16" ID spacers will yield however large your heart desires (up to the 15" spec Wilwood advertises). Just ensure the hat offset is correct.
Quote from: timbo on April 30, 2020, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 02, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?
Depends on the year and which calipers are used. The Aero 6 (what is designed here) has a caliper that is nearly identical to the stock 2x 47.5mm pistons. Using the 2013+ cars (or converted 10-12 cars) would yield nearly identical brake feel.
The 10-12 cars with stock master cylinder could utilize one of the Aero 4 calipers with the larger brake rotors (the piston area equates nearly identical to going from the early to late master cylinder size)
The pad area of the 150mm long pad on the Aero calipers are essentially the same as on the 2013+ stock brakes.
I am very interested in what the price is going to be, but also interested if the possibility of buying just brackets is an option. Either way, I hope this gets done as it's IMO the way to go.
For those wondering if upgrading to larger rotors is possible...well, it's a radial mount caliper, so just some 1" OD x 7/16" ID spacers will yield however large your heart desires (up to the 15" spec Wilwood advertises). Just ensure the hat offset is correct.
I replaced everything on the 11 MKS with gen V hardware. It is definitely better but the pedal still lacks the "precision" of the gen V cars.
Quote from: timbo on April 30, 2020, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 02, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Wouldn't this require an upgraded master cylinder as well?
Depends on the year and which calipers are used. The Aero 6 (what is designed here) has a caliper that is nearly identical to the stock 2x 47.5mm pistons. Using the 2013+ cars (or converted 10-12 cars) would yield nearly identical brake feel.
The 10-12 cars with stock master cylinder could utilize one of the Aero 4 calipers with the larger brake rotors (the piston area equates nearly identical to going from the early to late master cylinder size)
The pad area of the 150mm long pad on the Aero calipers are essentially the same as on the 2013+ stock brakes.
I am very interested in what the price is going to be, but also interested if the possibility of buying just brackets is an option. Either way, I hope this gets done as it's IMO the way to go.
For those wondering if upgrading to larger rotors is possible...well, it's a radial mount caliper, so just some 1" OD x 7/16" ID spacers will yield however large your heart desires (up to the 15" spec Wilwood advertises). Just ensure the hat offset is correct.
So I am interested in this analysis...
Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?
Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.
I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 10:20:01 PM
So I am interested in this analysis...
Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?
Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.
I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.
Not more clamping, but more consistent feel and a more rigid caliper. The pads are very good as well.
The 47.5mm pistons create a ~5.49" piston area. One of the Aero 6 calipers has a 5.4" piston area, so it's minimal change requiring slightly more effort (better feel and modulation). Might not even be noticed and the difference in "feel" with the pad material and any change in rotors have an affect.
The change in Master Cylinder piston sizing from 1-1/16" (10-12) to the 1-1/8" (13+) increased the area by ~26%. Taking that into account, by keeping the same ratio, you can change the front calipers on the 10-12 vehicles to an Aero 4 with a ~4.8" Piston area to accomplish the exact same affect as going to a larger master cylinder. Same caliper body with the same pads. (if my calculations or even my specs are wrong, please point it out to me. This is based off a fair amount of research, but could still be wrong)
Could do a similar thing with the Brembo brakes, but the majority of the front Brembo brakes have very tall pads and our rotors do not have very tall friction surfaces. Radial mounting is the easiest to deal with as there is a lot of adjustability after the creation of the bracket and maintain usability.
The 10-12 brakes are the same size as an equivalent performing vehicle weighing 25% less, so they sucked. I went through 3 sets of OEM rotors over 1 summer due to overheating. Even the aftermarket performance ones I finally put on were discolored, but at least didn't fade. They would complain (groan), but still worked. The master cylinder was sized too small as well and the later model only made the pedal feel better, not the performance. The equivalent sized master cylinder is used with 45mm pistons in the 96-04 Mustang and 43mm pistons in the 05-14, so why was a 47.5mm piston used?
That's my .02
Quote from: timbo on May 02, 2020, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 10:20:01 PM
So I am interested in this analysis...
Soooo on a 2013+ PP car, what am I getting here? Calipers that have more clamping force?
Just hoping for clarification as I am also pursuing the possibility of custom fitting Brembo brakes.
I have personally run into brake fade on my 2010 and a lack luster braking on my 2016 after some hot lapping.
Not more clamping, but more consistent feel and a more rigid caliper. The pads are very good as well.
The 47.5mm pistons create a ~5.49" piston area. One of the Aero 6 calipers has a 5.4" piston area, so it's minimal change requiring slightly more effort (better feel and modulation). Might not even be noticed and the difference in "feel" with the pad material and any change in rotors have an affect.
The change in Master Cylinder piston sizing from 1-1/16" (10-12) to the 1-1/8" (13+) increased the area by ~26%. Taking that into account, by keeping the same ratio, you can change the front calipers on the 10-12 vehicles to an Aero 4 with a ~4.8" Piston area to accomplish the exact same affect as going to a larger master cylinder. Same caliper body with the same pads. (if my calculations or even my specs are wrong, please point it out to me. This is based off a fair amount of research, but could still be wrong)
Could do a similar thing with the Brembo brakes, but the majority of the front Brembo brakes have very tall pads and our rotors do not have very tall friction surfaces. Radial mounting is the easiest to deal with as there is a lot of adjustability after the creation of the bracket and maintain usability.
The 10-12 brakes are the same size as an equivalent performing vehicle weighing 25% less, so they sucked. I went through 3 sets of OEM rotors over 1 summer due to overheating. Even the aftermarket performance ones I finally put on were discolored, but at least didn't fade. They would complain (groan), but still worked. The master cylinder was sized too small as well and the later model only made the pedal feel better, not the performance. The equivalent sized master cylinder is used with 45mm pistons in the 96-04 Mustang and 43mm pistons in the 05-14, so why was a 47.5mm piston used?
That's my .02
So if I have a 2013+ which I do (2016) then there isn't much difference happening besides a rotor and pad swap? Maybe I am missing something here? I'm not seeing why swapping to willwood helps based on your statement.
I get it, the 2010-2012's had undersized brakes.. I had one.. had terrible experiences at the track even with upgraded rotors/pads...
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.
I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.
Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.
2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'
I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.
I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.
Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.
2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'
I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!
Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...
Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.
Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.
I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.
Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.
2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'
I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!
Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...
Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.
Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.
I disagree. They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions. That would be the correct test. A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.
Quote from: SM105K on May 05, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.
I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.
Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.
2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'
I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!
Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...
Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.
Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.
I disagree. They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions. That would be the correct test. A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.
I suggested a track as it's the safest way to conduct these types of test. If there is a paved location where it can be done safely that more replicates real world testing, great.
But you still need the same tires, same day, etc etc... or the test for stopping distance isn't valid...
Also, a stress test would be good too.. how fast does the stopping power deteriorate under repeated abuse such as hot lapping or going down a very windy mountain where you are on and off the brakes a lot...
Just sayin.
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: SM105K on May 05, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 05, 2020, 06:13:15 AM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on May 05, 2020, 02:49:09 AM
Hey guys, sorry for the delay in response. COVID keeps me pretty tied up with the kids at home any any time we leave the house it's as a family so my testing is limited to solo trips to the grocery store haha.
I've had the kit installed for a little over a month now, and will be pulling it back off tomorrow evening to check the integrity of the adapter and to inspect all parts to ensure torque specs are correct for the material. Drawings and work instructions are ready for release, and I have worked with our suppliers to bring an entry level pricing for the first buy in amount, looking to be a minimum of 12 units.
Attached you'll see some testing that was done to compare the Wilwood setup to other options currently commercially available in the SHO community.
2013 SHO PP factory brakes with fairly new Ceramic pads - 2.75 seconds, 124.33'
Jordan Randle's 2013 SHO non-PP with Powerslot rotors and pads - 2.62 seconds, 116.65'
2013 SHO with Wilwood 6 piston rotors, R1Concepts slotted rotors and BP-20 pads - 2.57 seconds, 114.71'
I will say there are several variables in the testing, from pad material to incline between testing, but the Wilwoods were much smoother, less fade and steering shake, and did not take near as much pedal force to stop. I am hoping to test again in the coming days to see if I can improve the times with the Wilwoods and will report back.
Thanks for the info!
Yea, to really compare stopping power like you are, you need to have all 3 setups at the same track on the same day with the same tires...
Tires make a huge difference in stopping power as well and road/outside temps make a massive difference.
Ideally a track where you can really lay into them over and over would be best.
I disagree. They need to be done on a public street at the same time with the same tires in the same conditions. That would be the correct test. A track is a prepped surface and can enhance the tests. I prefer real world conditions for a real world application.
I suggested a track as it's the safest way to conduct these types of test. If there is a paved location where it can be done safely that more replicates real world testing, great.
But you still need the same tires, same day, etc etc... or the test for stopping distance isn't valid...
Also, a stress test would be good too.. how fast does the stopping power deteriorate under repeated abuse such as hot lapping or going down a very windy mountain where you are on and off the brakes a lot...
Just sayin.
I agree. The last statement is really profound. With my Powerstop Brakes and pads I have one good stop from triple digits before my stopping power deteriorates rapidly. Also in the mountains I have found the limit to my current set up as well. It also wasn't pronounced as well. One corner I had brakes, then next corner....incredible fade literally nothing. I was lucky the corner wasn't a decreasing radius and after there was a good bit of run off. Took about 7 mins of normal driving to get things to somewhat normal. I even have my shields removed.
Still hasn't answered my question... based on the info provided...if this isn't going to provide much additional stopping power for a 2013+ since it already has the bigger MBC....
Is there any benefit beyond the name? I can buy rotors and pads anywhere.
https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/twin-piston-calipers-are-two-pistons-better-than-one/ (https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/twin-piston-calipers-are-two-pistons-better-than-one/)
https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/performance-perspectives-july-2008/ (https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/performance-perspectives-july-2008/)