Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => Troubleshooting, Maintenance, TSB Articles => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: StinkinLinkin13 on March 19, 2020, 09:59:17 PM

Title: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on March 19, 2020, 09:59:17 PM
Ok. Hate to be this guy. I'm sure its been discussed before. But how much boost can the stock turbos deliver efficiently... I know ATP is the upgrade option but my turbos are new and I have no plans on upgrading anytime soon. So where these stockers gonna max out?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SHOdded on March 19, 2020, 11:47:04 PM
IIRC, 16-18 psi is the "hot zone" for these tiny turbos.  They have been driven to 23-24 psi during spikes, but ...
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Gjkrisa on March 20, 2020, 12:01:10 AM
Do we know airflow numbers for any of these turbos?

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Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: 802SHO on March 20, 2020, 06:01:16 AM
Don't forget, GearHead is the other upgrade option.  You can see how efficient they are by datalogging your wastegates duty cycle %.  If you're @ 19 psi and WGDC is 100% they're maxed. 
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: 802SHO on March 20, 2020, 06:56:07 AM
Matt Robinson shared flow data a while back of stock turbos vs his upgraded ones.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 11, 2020, 09:52:33 AM
Just recently got back into this issue. So if I'm doing a 3rd gear pull... How much psi should I be able to hold max with healthy stock turbos. 16 - 18 psi?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 11, 2020, 11:20:36 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 11, 2020, 09:52:33 AM
Just recently got back into this issue. So if I'm doing a 3rd gear pull... How much psi should I be able to hold max with healthy stock turbos. 16 - 18 psi?

My experience commanding 18 psi was like this... It'll boost spike to the commanded then taper through the gear sometimes touching into high 14s. These little baby turbos just can't keep up that well in the high boost. Anything after 15psi from my experience is going to taper to some degree
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 11, 2020, 10:09:19 PM
Ok... It just seems like Brad expects to see more than that hold... So I figured they could hold higher. Idk. I'm chasing a possible boost leak. I have one new turbo... One at 55k... I checked them both today and they seemed very similar as far as in and out plus up and down play and rotational drag. If its not one thing its another... 🤦‍♂️

Edit: Anyone familiar with boost datalogs chime in. Frustration level is high...

"Purple is the wastegate duty cycle and green is boost. You see boost dropping and wastegate duty taking off trying maintain boost...If the wastegate duty skyrockets but boost holds at least you are making commanded boost but yours is a double whammy. Your duty cycle is taking off so the turbos are speeding up and STILL losing boost. You are barely at 15 psi at 5500rpm and up, that is way less than target."
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 11, 2020, 11:13:46 PM
Mine peak at 17.5 psi and then taper down to 13.5 to 14 psi. I have no boost leaks. Brad thinks I have worn out turbos, because of the boost taper and high waste gate duty cycle. They have 76k miles on them.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 12, 2020, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: SM105K on April 11, 2020, 11:13:46 PM
Mine peak at 17.5 psi and then taper down to 13.5 to 14 psi. I have no boost leaks. Brad thinks I have worn out turbos, because of the boost taper and high waste gate duty cycle. They have 76k miles on them.

Added edit... I'm doing better than that boost wise but it seems it should be holding even higher...
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 12, 2020, 01:45:38 PM
I am in the same boat, been chasing leak/boost issue for last few weeks.
I have GH Intercooler
PPE Catted Downpipes
XDI Fuel pump
GH Tuned E40 and 93 tunes, many revisions back and forth with Matt.
My boost Command is 18PSI and it holds there for half of the RPM and than it starts to drop and I sendup at 12-13PSI by my 6K RPM with WG at 100% closed
5500RPM is where my PSI and WG cross, WG goes up PSI comes down.

I troubleshooted for ever, did multiple system pressure tests, you can find them in my videos:  https://youtu.be/awUptqYTFVw
Did not find pressure leak, I replaced all clamps on my pipes low and high side, I retighten all bolts, checked blowoff valves few times, replaced boost controller,  removed all pipes and inspected, I completely removed intake filter and ran without it, nope, did not fix it.
I checked WG, pressure tested it and it holds closed for long time, so that was crossed off of the list. I cleaned 3bar and mass flow sensors too.
I inspected my turbo fans/wheels and they look like new.
I have 31K miles on my car and I just don't believe they are tired turbos..

What I came to conclusion is these small turbos have their limits at high RPM engine demand, I say at about 5500-5800RPM its limits, Smaller turbos have more benefit at lower RPM, no boost lag, larger turbos are more efficient at higher.
Anyway, I just came to conclusion that I just shift at 5500 and call it good.

Here is my log view, 2 and 3rd gears pull, 3rd was not all the way to 6K, ran out of the road, LOL
Red is RPM, Blue WG, Green is Boost in PSI.
2nd gear (first spike) See how blue WG flattens 100% at 6K shift and boost is 12PSI
3rd gear (second spike) 5800RPM WG 100% flat, boost at 14PSI

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 12, 2020, 02:55:22 PM
What has me questioning is Brad gives me the impression that they should be able to hold higher... Which tuning as many SHOs as he does I can only assume he has actually seen. But Idk. That's what I'm trying to see. Any examples of actually holding higher boost on the top end with stock turbos.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 12, 2020, 03:38:57 PM
That's what Matt at gearhead saying my waist gate should be around 80-85% and I should hold higher psi all across.
I would like to see the screenshot of someone log with them numbers.

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 12, 2020, 11:12:14 PM
Now, this is something that I had on the back of my mind. Is there any chance that stock blowoff valves not holding pressure and bleeding it out?
Anyway to test that theory? Maybe unplug one at the time, run on one, plug the BW vent hole or something to see if its beading under pressure, like unplug one and put paper over the blowoff vent with zipty and see if pressure blows it to prove if its bleeding boost?

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SHOdded on April 13, 2020, 12:12:48 AM
The c clip on the WG actuator, the hoses at the solenoid. the diaphragm  on the BOV, and the BOV spring are sometimes faulty/weak.  And of course the noisemaker on the SHO can be as well.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 13, 2020, 08:16:50 AM
Thank you SHOadded, all things you mentioned was checked twice and in great working order.
Noisemakers delete - DONE
C-Clip checked.
all hoses vacuum pressure checked, solenoid was even replaced.
BOV diaphragm checked, checked again and looks great.

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: TopherSho on April 13, 2020, 10:41:31 AM
Add in the IAT2 temps to that last data set .. curious ...
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 13, 2020, 06:49:40 PM
here is my for previously posted pull
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: TopherSho on April 14, 2020, 10:56:42 AM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 13, 2020, 06:49:40 PM
here is my for previously posted pull

What is your elevation,  the air density should be fine with it under 70f ...  Only thing I can think is elevation playing a factor..
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 11:24:18 AM
StinkinLinkin, you want to share your info? I would like to see your input also.

I am in PA, 400ft above sea level,
That's what I am saying, all the environment numbers are perfect...
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: TopherSho on April 14, 2020, 11:28:43 AM
DRAT,  you mentioned DA earlier.  huh .. yeah i am stumped a bit too.  18 pounds is totally doable unless you are on different turbos..  I seem to recall at least one previous member running 20 which i thought was insane ..
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
So everything is perfect and the only thing you "think" is good is the turbos because they only have 31k miles on them. Sounds like you already found the solution just not willing to swap them. Turbos internally could have some drag not allowing them to spin as freely so while visually they look and feel perfect doesn't mean they are.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: ridered74 on April 14, 2020, 12:07:45 PM
In 3rd gear mine goes up to 18 and tapers down to about 14.5, in 4th gear it holds 18 thru most of the rpms but towards the end tapers down to 16.

Attached picture is what 4th gear looks like.

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: TopherSho on April 14, 2020, 01:01:56 PM
I wonder if the people running full custom hot-pipes hold pressure longer/better?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 01:21:03 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on April 14, 2020, 01:01:56 PM
I wonder if the people running full custom hot-pipes hold pressure longer/better?
I only upgraded my hot pipes when I went upgraded turbos other than the noisemaker delete
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
So everything is perfect and the only thing you "think" is good is the turbos because they only have 31k miles on them. Sounds like you already found the solution just not willing to swap them. Turbos internally could have some drag not allowing them to spin as freely so while visually they look and feel perfect doesn't mean they are.

maybe you are correct, I wanted to get everything else checked out before making this kind of investment and to measure it's necessary, right?
Now, I keep seeing often this same issue come up, that's why I brought this up.

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 01:50:43 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
So everything is perfect and the only thing you "think" is good is the turbos because they only have 31k miles on them. Sounds like you already found the solution just not willing to swap them. Turbos internally could have some drag not allowing them to spin as freely so while visually they look and feel perfect doesn't mean they are.

maybe you are correct, I wanted to get everything else checked out before making this kind of investment and to measure it's necessary, right?
Now, I keep seeing often this same issue come up, that's why I brought this up.

Need the right buddy to get it done on warranty ;)
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 14, 2020, 02:09:53 PM
Quote from: Jordan on April 14, 2020, 12:07:28 PM
So everything is perfect and the only thing you "think" is good is the turbos because they only have 31k miles on them. Sounds like you already found the solution just not willing to swap them. Turbos internally could have some drag not allowing them to spin as freely so while visually they look and feel perfect doesn't mean they are.

I am almost 100% my turbos are tired. Car made 391/470 E30 tune and K&N drop in only.  I actually lost some boost across the board when I installed the GH IC however my car made the same power.  Less boost more efficiency. 

I checked my BOVs, added DP's and a better exhaust.  Even then boost recovery was minimal.  However with the full exhaust HP didnt move but TQ did rise from 470 to 494. Added the noisemaker delete pipe and still have not recovered boost.  Will log to confirm.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 02:41:00 PM
Well, larger IC takes longer to build up pressure and harder for tiny turbos to keep pressure up,
Who knows, I been braking my head soo much these 2 weeks, I had nightmares about it.
Anyway, at some point I will upgrade turbos, just not now.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 14, 2020, 03:15:43 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 02:41:00 PM
Well, larger IC takes longer to build up pressure and harder for tiny turbos to keep pressure up,
Who knows, I been braking my head soo much these 2 weeks, I had nightmares about it.
Anyway, at some point I will upgrade turbos, just not now.

I have too.  However, I am happy with my SHO as it sits.  It makes good power and I have 100% faith that I can drive cross country in it and arrive safely.  I just cannot justify at this time spending another $4500 to make my SHO a 500/600 car and put it in the extreme zone for trans failure.  The $4500 could be spent for a big fuel system and cams for new my project.  High 3 digit and low 4 digit power is very reasonable for that set up.   
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 14, 2020, 10:12:47 PM
Welp... I was doing some pulls trying to get to the bottom of this as well and lo and behold I put a hole in my block. 💥 Was it worth it... Idk. Should have I been happy with 12.2... Maybe. Something special about the 11 second club to me tho... I thought the car had what it needed to get there... Apparently I thought wrong. Don't feel bad for me. I knew the risk of pushing things to the limits. I really don't know what went wrong at this point though.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: bpd1151 on April 14, 2020, 10:27:08 PM
Damn.

Sorry to hear. Ugh

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Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: limited02 on April 14, 2020, 10:31:47 PM
That really does suck!!!  What do you think your plans Going forward will be?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 14, 2020, 11:54:26 PM
Sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: avidmotion on April 15, 2020, 01:40:45 AM
Yea what went wrong? What'sthe next step? Used SHO Motors not bad.tradenout your parts back on it.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SHOdded on April 15, 2020, 07:30:07 AM
Ugh Ugh Ugh.  :(  Sorry to hear, SL13.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 15, 2020, 07:50:41 AM
Ouch! That sucks man! :(
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 09:48:23 AM
Sorry to hear buddy.  That is always a drag.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
I'm in the process of returning to stock. Technically I'm still under Lincolns 70k mile drivetrain warranty. It was also a certified used car... So hopefully they take care of it. My only concern is the flash count if they decide to look.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Jordan on April 15, 2020, 10:10:36 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
I'm in the process of returning to stock. Technically I'm still under Lincolns 70k mile drivetrain warranty. It was also a certified used car... So hopefully they take care of it. My only concern is the flash count if they decide to look.

Not what you want to hear but pretty sure 500 key cycles gets rid of that..
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: MKS Tom on April 15, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Even returning to stock as much as possible, they are going to know for sure.  It's a matter of if they care or not and that totally is up to the dealer/service writer/tech. 
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: 802SHO on April 15, 2020, 10:41:19 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
I'm in the process of returning to stock. Technically I'm still under Lincolns 70k mile drivetrain warranty. It was also a certified used car... So hopefully they take care of it. My only concern is the flash count if they decide to look.

Damn man I'm really sorry this happened!  LMS tune right?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
Quote from: 802SHO on April 15, 2020, 10:41:19 AM

Damn man I'm really sorry this happened!  LMS tune right?

Not running LMS tune. Not gonna name the tuner as a lot of you may already know... But I don't think it was their fault and won't lay blame. I actually was datalogging when it happened and nothing out of the usual in the log. It was still a relatively mild revision.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: 802SHO on April 15, 2020, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
Quote from: 802SHO on April 15, 2020, 10:41:19 AM

Damn man I'm really sorry this happened!  LMS tune right?

Not running LMS tune. Not gonna name the tuner as a lot of you may already know... But I don't think it was their fault and won't lay blame. I actually was datalogging when it happened and nothing out of the usual in the log. It was still a relatively mild revision.

Unfortunate no matter what.  I hope you can get things worked out under warranty.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 10:47:27 AM
Quote from: 802SHO on April 15, 2020, 10:41:19 AM

Damn man I'm really sorry this happened!  LMS tune right?

Not running LMS tune. Not gonna name the tuner as a lot of you may already know... But I don't think it was their fault and won't lay blame. I actually was datalogging when it happened and nothing out of the usual in the log. It was still a relatively mild revision.

Looking at your logs, did you have an LSPI event?  What oil are you running?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 01:43:44 PM
Crazy question:
Looking at the Turbo Waistgate shaft I noticed it has allthread and lock nut, meaning the travel and zero point of waist gate can be changed and calibrated.
Is it possible some of the turbos like my and some other guys with low boost are not calibrated and not closing all the way?
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 01:43:44 PM
Crazy question:
Looking at the Turbo Waistgate shaft I noticed it has allthread and lock nut, meaning the travel and zero point of waist gate can be changed and calibrated.
Is it possible some of the turbos like my and some other guys with low boost are not calibrated and not closing all the way?

In theory yes.  If you are bored drop your DP's.  Use compressed air with a regulator and start at 18 psi.   Pressurize the actuator and see if it closes the wastegate flap completely closed.  Back off the pressure and see when it cracks open.  I am really interested to see what happens honestly.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 02:18:29 PM
I am not dropping my downpipe :) too much work.
Can I do same thing without dropping it?
Can I put 20PSI, close waistgate, put a mark on the shaft how far it went in, then undo C-Clamp, more it by hand and see if it's traveling pass them mark?
Is that possible?

What if ford has them calibrated to only close 90% to protect the turbos?
Thats possible, right?


Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 02:22:32 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 02:18:29 PM
I am not dropping my downpipe :) too much work.
Can I do same thing without dropping it?
Can I put 20PSI, close waistgate, put a mark on the shaft how far it went in, then undo C-Clamp, more it by hand and see if it's traveling pass them mark?
Is that possible?

I would assume so.  I say drop the DP's because so you can verify they are working correctly and seating flush.
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 02:36:52 PM
I am not dropping DP, I still have nightmares of me putting PPE DP's in few months back, LOL
I got this, I have work cutout for me on Friday night, can't wait...
I will apply 20PSI to the actuator, get under the car, remove C-clamp, disconnect the shaft from the arm and see if I can move arm anymore to close position, if I can I will adjust the set-nut to that and call it good.
Thinking about it, you dont really need 20PSI, stock turbos are about 12 at max?
So even 15PSI will do the job



Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 02:56:22 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 02:36:52 PM
I am not dropping DP, I still have nightmares of me putting PPE DP's in few months back, LOL
I got this, I have work cutout for me on Friday night, can't wait...
I will apply 20PSI to the actuator, get under the car, remove C-clamp, disconnect the shaft from the arm and see if I can move arm anymore to close position, if I can I will adjust the set-nut to that and call it good.
Thinking about it, you dont really need 20PSI, stock turbos are about 12 at max?
So even 15PSI will do the job

Starting pressure is arbitrary. Pressurize it enough for the actuator to fully engage the arm to move the flap to the fully closed position. At whatever pressure that is mark the rod.  Start backing it off a psi each time and see when the rod moves back towards the starting position.  From there adjust the adjustment piece to have it close fully with less pressure.     
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: Gjkrisa on April 15, 2020, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: SM105K on April 15, 2020, 02:56:22 PM
Quote from: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 02:36:52 PM
I am not dropping DP, I still have nightmares of me putting PPE DP's in few months back, LOL
I got this, I have work cutout for me on Friday night, can't wait...
I will apply 20PSI to the actuator, get under the car, remove C-clamp, disconnect the shaft from the arm and see if I can move arm anymore to close position, if I can I will adjust the set-nut to that and call it good.
Thinking about it, you dont really need 20PSI, stock turbos are about 12 at max?
So even 15PSI will do the job

Starting pressure is arbitrary. Pressurize it enough for the actuator to fully engage the arm to move the flap to the fully closed position. At whatever pressure that is mark the rod.  Start backing it off a psi each time and see when the rod moves back towards the starting position.  From there adjust the adjustment piece to have it close fully with less pressure.     
I think that is worth a sticky

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Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 04:44:48 PM
Not yet, let me figure this out, I will make a new post, make video of this and if it's proven that Ford eye-bowls the rod plus minus 10 it will be game changer.
For factory 10-12 PSI WG never closes full to produce pressure stock motor needs, so fine tuning the rod length is not important and not necessary for ford, it probably never reaches 50% duty cycle ether.
But if this is the case, that's why some people see 14PSI and other 18PSI at full closed WG

Give me couple of days to get this figured out and documented and we will have game changer here on the forum

Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: TopherSho on April 15, 2020, 05:54:43 PM
Are you suggesting the wastegate may have additional mechanical 'pressure' to apply allowing for the oem snails to hold more boost?

Topher < not up to scratch on the topic shift ..
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 06:32:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12g1PpIcjE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p12g1PpIcjE)

I will start from testing proper preload
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: SuperPete on April 15, 2020, 11:15:10 PM
Well, hate to bring bad news but it's absolutely impossible to do any adjustments to the WG with the turbos installed, even if I drop downpipes I can't get to the shaft to be able to adjust it, no way.
back turbo, maybe if you get yourself two super skinny long arms, front NO WAY
Sorry, no luck...
Title: Re: Stock turbo efficiency..?
Post by: jman on April 16, 2020, 02:49:56 PM
Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 15, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
I'm in the process of returning to stock. Technically I'm still under Lincolns 70k mile drivetrain warranty. It was also a certified used car... So hopefully they take care of it. My only concern is the flash count if they decide to look.
If I were you I'd temporally change my avatar and signature, you never know who's watching.
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