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OEM Turbo Failure, Very Low Miles

Started by RandR10, December 22, 2016, 03:31:10 PM

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RandR10

Hey Guys.  I figured there would be some here who are interested in seeing this.  I got my Flex about 6000 miles ago with dealer-installed OEM turbos about 1000 miles before that (130k total on the clock).  Here's a pic of what happens to your "brand new" turbo when someone at the factory (or rebuilder, not sure) screws up.  I notice two things conspicuously missing from this picture.  One, there's no nut on the shaft.  It spun off and the turbo ate it.  Why did that happen you ask?  Well, also conspicuously missing, no thread locker compound on the threads, or any other signs that they prick punched the shaft or something of that nature.  Unfortunately for me, this part was installed more than 2 years ago, so out of Ford's parts warranty. 

I also need to buy a new charge air cooler because that's full of metal pieces now.  Needed replacement anyway, as the cooling fins are mostly bent over on the lower side of it, but I was putting that off.  Lucky for me none of the crap made it all the way up into the combustion chambers.  I scoped each cylinder and aside from the typical carbon buildup, they're clean and no scoring on the cylinder walls.  I'm surprised because I did see a little bit of material that made it into the last intake tube, but it didn't make it all the way up and through the throttle body apparently.

I'd like to thank ONLYA6 and his writeup here: http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=2023.0 because it was a HUGE help on the rear turbo removal.  Factory manual says remove the subframe.  It's a pain, but as long as you remove ALL of the little heat shields, it can be wiggled past everything.  I'm swapping the front turbo too because that one has a bad seal and I'm worried about it failing in the same way. 

Got a brand new pair of turbos from CF Power up in Brea California for a very good price.  I'll let everyone know how they perform and if they have premature failure.  I don't anticipate that though because the rep told me the company was one of the manufacturers that bid to be the OEM supplier but didn't get the contract, so they're supposedly up to Ford's OEM spec.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

MiWiAu

Quote from: RandR10 on December 22, 2016, 03:31:10 PM
Well, also conspicuously missing, no thread locker compound on the threads, or any other signs that they prick punched the shaft or something of that nature.  Unfortunately for me, this part was installed more than 2 years ago, so out of Ford's parts warranty. 

Sheesh, sorry to hear about your issue. I'd be wanting to prick punch the the guy that messed up the turbo build!

Good luck with your replacement install! Make sure you flush out all your charge pipes while you have the CAC out, just in case there is any residual metal flake stuck in the inevitable oil film. :)
2013 XSport

SHOdded

^ x2!  Sorry to see your Flex be an unsuspecting victim of poor "workmanship".  Certainly wish you the best with the new turbos you have chosen.  I don't think the fragments made it into the oil or coolant, but inspect it carefully anyway.  Maybe change the oil a couple of times at short intervals to be sure.  IDK how you would know about damage to the turboback exhaust tho.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

RandR10

Quote from: MiWiAu on December 22, 2016, 04:26:29 PM
Quote from: RandR10 on December 22, 2016, 03:31:10 PM
Well, also conspicuously missing, no thread locker compound on the threads, or any other signs that they prick punched the shaft or something of that nature.  Unfortunately for me, this part was installed more than 2 years ago, so out of Ford's parts warranty. 

Sheesh, sorry to hear about your issue. I'd be wanting to prick punch the the guy that messed up the turbo build!

Good luck with your replacement install! Make sure you flush out all your charge pipes while you have the CAC out, just in case there is any residual metal flake stuck in the inevitable oil film. :)

Absolutely.  Most of the piping post-compressor has metal flake (hopefully just aluminum) and oil in it, so it's all going to get a thorough bath.  The front turbo came out really easy after I removed the radiator and CAC.  Probably would have been just as easy without doing that, but since I had to get the CAC out anyway, I did that first.  Upon inspection, it has small amounts of damage to the compressor vanes, but nothing to write home about.  It's also debatable whether the oil that was in that plumbing was from the PCV system that I recently added a catch can and new OEM oil separator to or if the turbo seal was damaged.  The bearing is nice and tight but who knows?  I'm glad I have new parts regardless.  Never hurts to be sure and I don't want to do this again any time soon.  Now we'll see if this factory in China is any better at making turbos than the one in Mexico.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

RandR10

Quote from: SHOdded on December 22, 2016, 04:52:29 PM
^ x2!  Sorry to see your Flex be an unsuspecting victim of poor "workmanship".  Certainly wish you the best with the new turbos you have chosen.  I don't think the fragments made it into the oil or coolant, but inspect it carefully anyway.  Maybe change the oil a couple of times at short intervals to be sure.  IDK how you would know about damage to the turboback exhaust tho.

I wholeheartedly agree on the oil changes, as I was already planning on doing that ;).  Hopefully a couple of fresh filters and new oil in short succession would catch any junk before it could damage any engine bearing surfaces.

I'm not too worried about the exhaust.  I looked down the catalytic converters and the honeycomb on them is pristine.  A fine dust did shake out of them as I was dismantling, but no other visible damage to either side.  I think everything else in the exhaust post-cat couldn't possibly be damaged if the cats are okay.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

RandR10

Here's what the compressor on the front turbo looks like.  I'm new to turbochargers.  Can anyone in the know tell me whether this amount of damage to the vanes is normal or do I have a problem with the intake air being contaminated?
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

SHOdded

I dont think that is normal, but I am new to the TC world myself.

A fine dust in the honeycombs is perfectly routine though.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: RandR10 on December 22, 2016, 07:02:47 PM
Here's what the compressor on the front turbo looks like.  I'm new to turbochargers.  Can anyone in the know tell me whether this amount of damage to the vanes is normal or do I have a problem with the intake air being contaminated?
I think you are getting debris in your intake.

Are you running a CAI?

Hi flow panel?

I've seen dust past the box on my panel and where the K&N connected to the OEM.

I'm back to running the paper filter.

You might want to have an oil analysis done, that might shed some light as to what is going on.


RandR10

Okay, never mind.  The bearings on the front one are toast too and you can wiggle it back and forth quite a bit.  Did some research on that.  It either had oil contamination at one point or someone maybe ran it through dust without an air filter for a while (or possibly dirty air filter, it was quite dirty when I bought it so maybe).  I'm also wondering if all the intake piping was cleaned up and installed properly during the dealer install.  I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't because I found that the pigtail to one of the O2 sensors was damaged to the point that you can see bare wire and some of the smaller bolts that call for say, 25-30 lb-ft. of torque felt like they were put on with an impact wrench and needed a 2 foot cheater bar to break loose, and others were loose enough that I'd be worried about them backing out from vibration.  One of the hose clamps going down behind the motor wasn't very tight either.  I was able to take that one off with a nut driver and very little effort.  I found some chunks of broken magnet stuck to the rear manifold as well, and no anti-seize on any of the manifold to turbo bolts.  Seems like some newb was under there working on it.

From my research, what apparently happens with oil contamination or air inlet contamination is once the bearings get damaged and allow the turbine to deflect, or damage to the vanes knocks it out of balance and does the same, the wheel contacts the housing and it starts to consume itself.  Once you get enough play in the bearing or shaft from this, then the nut can back itself off because it's not tight any more, which is what happened to the rear turbo.  Front one would have probably done the same thing shortly after by the looks of it.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

RandR10

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on December 22, 2016, 07:40:05 PM
Quote from: RandR10 on December 22, 2016, 07:02:47 PM
Here's what the compressor on the front turbo looks like.  I'm new to turbochargers.  Can anyone in the know tell me whether this amount of damage to the vanes is normal or do I have a problem with the intake air being contaminated?
I think you are getting debris in your intake.

Are you running a CAI?

Hi flow panel?

I've seen dust past the box on my panel and where the K&N connected to the OEM.

I'm back to running the paper filter.

You might want to have an oil analysis done, that might shed some light as to what is going on.

It's got a paper filter in there now.  I'm going to install a Ford one just to be sure when this all goes back together.  Couldn't get one from the dealer without waiting so I stuck a Fram on there.  I doubt that particular filter is the problem though because the oil consumption issue was there from day one when I got the car, and the engine itself is pretty tight.  When I did the boroscope, there was still clean crosshatching on the cylinder walls.  I'm leaning towards either that old dirty air filter getting all this started or some contamination introduced to the intake piping during turbo install (or maybe left over from previous turbo failure).  The oil in the engine was recently changed and it looks clean as a whistle.  I've seen engines with wiped bearings and the oil will have metal flake suspended in it.  If the oil was ever contaminated, it certainly doesn't look like it is now.  As I said above, I plan to do an oil change after I do first start up and let it get to operating temp at idle only.  Then I'll drive it easy for a couple hundred miles and change the oil again.  Similar procedure to how I've broken in newly rebuilt engines in the past.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

RandR10

So, I took all the turbo piping over to the wash tub to be cleaned and I found a smoking gun.  The one pic is of a damaged boot retainer that's on the inlet pipe to the front turbo.  I think that was leaking and allowing contamination into that turbo.  The other pic with the hose clamp loose is the one that was really easy to turn and felt loose on the backside of the motor when I dismantled everything.  I think this was also leaking from being loose and caused the same kind of contamination.  Since both were so low on the motor, they both probably sucked in quite a bit of dust and debris from the road.  I'm not curious any more as to why this happened in so few miles.  Very very sloppy work by whoever did this damage to the one pipe, forgot to tighten the other pipe's clamp and damaged the O2 sensor pigtail when he removed the front cat.  Hopefully that tech didn't work on anything else on this car.
2011 Ford Flex Limited Ecoboost

MiWiAu

Dag yo. Sucks! At least you caught it before putting in the new ones!


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2013 XSport

SHOdded

Great invesrigative work, seens like the jackpot alright.  Fingers crossed only peripheral equipment is involved.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

derfdog15

That is definitely really bad quality of work, and IMO even out of the wormanship warranty, I would bring it to attention of the shop, so that no one else gets screwed by the same tech.

Also, may be time for some EcoPowerParts hot pipes, to make sure nothing cracks/leaks when you replace the turbos!
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

J-Will

do you have any additional info on the turbos you're going to go with?  Specs, pricing?
2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap