I'll preface this by saying I already own an aem V2 meth kit, and have been running a 640ml/min nozzle, pre throttle body. This is in a '16 f150 with a 2.7.
Purely by happenstance I ran across some research about injecting w/m pre turbo. There are a lot of naysayers claiming it can erode the blades on the turbo, but I haven't found a single claim that this has ACTUALLY been a problem for anyone. However, I have found plenty of first hand accounts that they ran pre turbo injection for years with no ill effects.
I've also spoken to Rodney at alcohol injection systems a bit about this, and he says the same thing. In their experience, and from all of his customers' reports, pre turbo injection has never harmed anything.
What it does, reportedly, is cools the air charge at the source of the heat, and by cooling the air at the turbo, causes the charge to be denser, and effectively flow a few more #/min, moving the efficiency range a bit. Allowing the turbo to act like a larger one.
It seems the magic formula is a small nozzle to produce a fine fog pre turbo, then another, larger nozzle right after the intercooler. Most of what's injected pre turbo is completely flashed off, and doesn't give the benefits that most use methanol injection for by cooling the combustion chamber and adding octane. Hence the post intercooler nozzle.
Most of what I just wrote is regurgitated information, most that I understand pretty well, but some that I don't. I'm mostly just in a researching stage right now. If I'm going to have the resource of methanol injection, I'd like to reap maximum benefits from it.
I'm curious if any of you have any real world experience with pre turbo injection , especially on this platform. Real world, what will it offer me? Seems like these little turbos are probably being pushed pretty hard at 20+ psi.
Many thanks.
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Quote from: mwemaxxowner on June 13, 2017, 12:49:11 PM
I've also spoken to Rodney at alcohol injection systems a bit about this, and he says the same thing. In their experience, and from all of his customers' reports, pre turbo injection has never harmed anything.
Really, because the Devil's Own website states very clearly that they do not recommend this:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/content/20-where-to-locate-your-alcohol-water-injection-nozzle (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/content/20-where-to-locate-your-alcohol-water-injection-nozzle)
Sure there is an 'if'
Rodney from prometh.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170613/909b1c698105aed3dcea68a97141313b.jpg)
Yes, there are many sources that regurgitate the information that this can erode the vanes in the turbo. Yet every firsthand account I've found says everything was peachy. And it's a good point about the draw through carbs used with turbos sucking gasoline though a turbo.
Also a thread on the subject on a different vehicle. Where he and others participated.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465052
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I guess you will have to route the meth in a way that it doesn't vaporize BEFORE it reaches the turbos, as it has a relatively low boiling point.
Also, it is rare that these turbos are pushed to 20+ psi except on spikes. Most of them run at or below 18psi ongoing, to stay within the efficiency envelope.
Perhaps my turbos are different. 2.7s run a but more boost than 3.5s. In the truck world anyway. It will hold 20 or better. It would most likely be a 50/50 mix, but yes they inject right in front of the turbo. And I believe they say only inject with a nozzle pointing directly into the turbo, not perpendicularly. That alone will make it challenging or impossible here. I'm working on getting some clarification on that. Part of what I was hoping to discover here. Haha
Another interesting post, and on a 3.5. I wish he had delved into it further.
https://www.f150forum.com/f38/ecoboost-water-methanol-meth-injection-results-282524/
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I may well find out it's not worth it, not possible, or just not feasible for me. But it's an interesting topic that I'm quite curious about.
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My concern, would be adding more/any fluid before the intercooler. It will compound the issue with the IC's collecting fluid and then burping it into the engine. F150's have problems with condensation already, I have seen people here talking about SHO's running poorly due to junk in the IC and needing to clean it out. Might be atomized post turbo, but might be condensating before it exits the IC.
Interesting idea for sure though. Innovation often bucks traditional thought on things...
Quote from: lamrith on June 13, 2017, 03:02:43 PM
My concern, would be adding more/any fluid before the intercooler. It will compound the issue with the IC's collecting fluid and then burping it into the engine. F150's have problems with condensation already, I have seen people here talking about SHO's running poorly due to junk in the IC and needing to clean it out. Might be atomized post turbo, but might be condensating before it exits the IC.
Interesting idea for sure though. Innovation often bucks traditional thought on things...
I've thought about that. The '15+ intercooler redesign draws air from the very bottom of the intercooler to minimize pooling. The pre 15 trucks had a considerable gap between the cac outlet pipe and the bottom of the intercooler. That's also why you use a very small nozzle. Especially if you use almost 100% meth (according to my research thus far) they say it has flashed off enough prior to the cac that this doesn't happen.
However, that is still a concern and a good point, and one of the questions I have. Most of the setups I read were with a 1gph or smaller nozzle pre turbo, and some even mentioned a "fogger" nozzle. That's not something I know much about though.
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Quote from: SHOdded on June 13, 2017, 02:19:28 PM
I guess you will have to route the meth in a way that it doesn't vaporize BEFORE it reaches the turbos, as it has a relatively low boiling point.
Also, it is rare that these turbos are pushed to 20+ psi except on spikes. Most of them run at or below 18psi ongoing, to stay within the efficiency envelope.
Why would you be worried about it vaporizing before the turbos???
What about backfiring into the intake system with the whole system loaded up with methanol? When spraying after the intercooler it's just a short leg of the intake that's loaded up.
Quote from: SilvererSHO on June 13, 2017, 05:37:53 PM
Why would you be worried about it vaporizing before the turbos???
I meant I don't want it boiling in the lines leading to the injection site. If it has already absorbed that much energy/heat prior to meeting the airstream that the turbo receives, it wouldn't make for much of a cooling charge. Atomization vs vaporization. That was my thought anyway.
The idea is to inject just inches before the turbo. It flashes as it passes through, drawing heat from the air as it does so, and at the same time "thickening" the air. The main benefit for me would be the lowered charge temps, but another benefit is it allows the charger to flow more lb/min. Shifting the efficiency range. How much I have no idea. I've read reports of 3ish psi more.
Some have actually found that this cools the air so much that the cac actually heats it up to ambient. Some race cars inject meth pre turbo and it's so effective they are able to eliminate the cac. Not that I'm going to do that.
As to compressing the mixture and it exploding, I don't think that's much of a concern at a 70/30 mix or weaker. I would likely try 50/50. Some actually run two systems, and inject pure h2o into the turbo and meth post turbo. In theory pure h2o is harder on the compressor wheel, but I have yet to find a firsthand account of pre turbo injection long term causing any noticeable erosion.
I really think the most likely "problem" would only be condensing out moisture in the intercooler. I think it you get the mix and the flow right, it's all flashed off enough that doesn't happen. But again, most of this is just based on my brief discussion with Rodney at prometh, some research that I've googled up, and some forum threads I've read. One of which Rodney participated in.
It's my understanding that he's pretty sharp on methanol/water injection across a wide range of applications.
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The only problem which is more of a concern is that in moist, damp and low temp conditions you will not fully vaporize. I'm less concerned about the alcohol and more concerned about the PH of the water doing damage over time to various seals.
Additionally you will be adding much cooler air to the CaC which means more water moisture in the chamber on or near the plugs. If there are larger droplets of water they will flash of the tip of the plug and I'm *my head* leave deposits ..
Or I am crazy
You think atmospheric conditions will affect what goes on right there at the turbo that much?
I don't know if it has any effect on the pH level, but it has always been stressed to me that it's of the utmost importance to use only true distilled water with injection. Which is a practice I follow. I don't know if that has a neutral pH or not.
I suppose if it was true preturbo injectors could be turned off through the winter.
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Not a expert, but here in Oregon we spend half the year sub 75 and have very moist conditions. In a pre turbo injection setup I think I'd be bathing the inlet if I had it turn on too high.
Quote from: TopherSho on June 13, 2017, 09:34:04 PM
Not a expert, but here in Oregon we spend half the year sub 75 and have very moist conditions. In a pre turbo injection setup I think I'd be bathing the inlet if I had it turn on too high.
Now we just have to come up with a way to inject the same amount of meth all the time and electronically vary the amount of H20 injected depending upon the humidity level of the intake air at any given time. 8)
Quote from: SilvererSHO on June 13, 2017, 11:24:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on June 13, 2017, 09:34:04 PM
Not a expert, but here in Oregon we spend half the year sub 75 and have very moist conditions. In a pre turbo injection setup I think I'd be bathing the inlet if I had it turn on too high.
Now we just have to come up with a way to inject the same amount of meth all the time and electronically vary the amount of H20 injected depending upon the humidity level of the intake air at any given time. 8)
Or you could inject 100%. 😋
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Quote from: mwemaxxowner on June 13, 2017, 02:11:40 PM
Rodney from prometh.
Keep sharing your experience with ProMeth. They have a very appealing direct inject setup for us SHO owners.
I will. I'm still in just the kicking around ideas phase. I want to be sure I'm getting the most out of what I have with nozzle placement. Sooner or later I want to call Rodney and chat with him. I hope he won't shrug me off when he hears I already have a kit and am not sure I'm going to spend more money or not. I'm willing to buy from them if I decide to run more nozzles though.
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And as for the direct injection kit they have, they don't make one for the 2.7, but they do have a "u bend it" kit, which includes everything necessary (except the manifold) that I need to make my own. Essentially, I would be drilling and tapping the manifold myself, and bending the lines from the "splitter" just like they would at their warehouse.
Ultimately this direct port injection is what I want. Probably with a 7th and 8th nozzle pre turbo if I determine it's a good idea. If not, with a 7th nozzle post cac. That's the best way to ensure proper distribution across each cylinder, and have ultimate cooling off the combustion chamber. And extra fueling if I need it, but I don't plan on pushing that hard.
I don't think I'll opt for a port injection kit until after the warranty is up though. I try to keep all of my mods for now easy to return to stock. Pulling the intake manifold is not what I consider easy and quick. Lol. Swapping out a charge pipe is.
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I'm not all to familiar with the 2.7 Transverse!! But placing an 8th injector pre-turbo might be a bit excessive,overkill IMO and not warranted.
But interesting Concept for sure and keep us updated on your newly found venture. Z
Quote from: SilvererSHO on June 13, 2017, 11:24:55 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on June 13, 2017, 09:34:04 PM
Not a expert, but here in Oregon we spend half the year sub 75 and have very moist conditions. In a pre turbo injection setup I think I'd be bathing the inlet if I had it turn on too high.
Now we just have to come up with a way to inject the same amount of meth all the time and electronically vary the amount of H20 injected depending upon the humidity level of the intake air at any given time. 8)
LOL, if we only knew who could have such a system :P
I don't think it makes much difference, but this isn't a transverse motor.
Keep in mind we're talking about a VERY small nozzle. This isn't really intended to be used as fueling or even to directly cool the cylinders very much. Usually about a .75 or 1.0 gpm nozzle at high pressure. The goal is for it to completely flash off in the turbo, cooling the charge very effectively, and shifting the efficiency range, allowing you to flow more lb/min. I am curious if we could use this to, not necessarily flow more lb/min, but to flow the same lb/min as my hottest 93 tune, but do so without working the turbos so hard. With such small turbos doing so much, that's why I wonder if it could be a huge benefit for me/us. Obviously we fight heat every step of the way. Who doesn't want much cooler, denser air? Lol
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I've got something up my sleeve that I've been researching for months, planing and will ultimately be coming together this week. (Soon as my lms alky, devils own, and Summit boxes sho up 😉). Im going to start a thread on it when I get started. Muahahah
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I've been researching this topic extensively as well.
It seems that our tiny turbos would benefit from this greatly considering an aftermarket intake neglects gains due to the increase in temperature. This would reduce temps AND create denser air.
From reading as much as I could find, there have been a few folks with damaged turbo vanes, could be for a variety of reasons, including percentage of meth to the injection not atomizing properly before the inlet, or maybe even leaks.
I'm probably going this route, with the smallest nozzle possible, highest pressure possible, and 100% water. (here's a good review on temp vs water/meth ratio and nozzles: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/pre-compressor-injection-test-results.363191 (http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/pre-compressor-injection-test-results.363191))
They sell a kit made for the K03 turbo(inlet size approx 1.5 inches), but its a bit overpriced IMO for a nozzle holder, nozzle, and lines. http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1943 (http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1943)
Anyone know what our turbo inlet size is?
Quote from: NITSOOB on July 03, 2017, 10:08:38 PM
I've been researching this topic extensively as well.
It seems that our tiny turbos would benefit from this greatly considering an aftermarket intake neglects gains due to the increase in temperature. This would reduce temps AND create denser air.
From reading as much as I could find, there have been a few folks with damaged turbo vanes, could be for a variety of reasons, including percentage of meth to the injection not atomizing properly before the inlet, or maybe even leaks.
I'm probably going this route, with the smallest nozzle possible, highest pressure possible, and 100% water. (here's a good review on temp vs water/meth ratio and nozzles: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/pre-compressor-injection-test-results.363191 (http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/pre-compressor-injection-test-results.363191))
They sell a kit made for the K03 turbo(inlet size approx 1.5 inches), but its a bit overpriced IMO for a nozzle holder, nozzle, and lines. http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1943 (http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1943)
Anyone know what our turbo inlet size is?
If youre using 100% meth, you don't need to inject center of the turbo compressor inlet. Use a fine nozzle like a 1gph 3-8inches from compressor housing and youre good. Water is abt 25% more dense and does not flash off as quickly, which leads to concerns of water pooling in the intake tubing causing larges masses of water to be sucked in. so special care must be taken for higher water ratio solutions. But 100% meth, you're fine.
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