Hey everyone, it's been a while since I've been on to chat about my tune issues. Ever since winter came about (and even sometimes in summer), I've been getting the obnoxious popping at wide open throttle, near 5k-6k RPM. I've been talking extensively with people who have Torrie/Unleashed Tuned vehicles and they don't have popping what-so-ever. I also hear that Livernois came out with a v9 tune, which makes the popping issue worse.
I don't completely buy the "winter blend story" shouldn't the car compensate with it's fuel trims based on air density, temperature, and octane? Does spark blowout generate misfire codes? The only code I have is a steering angle sensor code, which keeps me wondering what is going on.
I also want to get a running list of people who are having this issue. I'd like to take it to Livernois and say I'm not the only person having this issue. They insist they have the tune installed on 100s of cars without issue. Its hard to believe. If you have an issue with popping what year is the make model and year of your ecoboosted engines.
Thanks all.
Have you checked to see if the car behaves the same with the stock tune?
I'm going to load the stock tune when I take my care into the shop to get the windshield washer fluid pump fixed. lol Such a stupid problem to have with the car. 43,000 miles and they won't cover it under factory warranty.
Might want to check your plug gaps, I haven't had the 15 checked but the 13 was all over the place.
Here's the kicker. The plugs were "pre-gapped" from Livernois. > : ( perhaps I should ask kindly for a new set.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on January 26, 2016, 02:36:27 PM
Here's the kicker. The plugs were "pre-gapped" from Livernois. > : ( perhaps I should ask kindly for a new set.
Did you verify the gap before install?
Were they SP-534's?
Gap was around .030-.032 on all of the plugs. I'll have to check the model number.
Brenton,
Is this still with e85 blended fuel by chance? If I recall you said this issue came about after adding 1.5 gallons of e85 with 93 octane which we personally do not recommend to do in an EcoBoost vehicle. We have not had a single car here on the dyno making any popping sounds nor have we had customers reporting back their car pops after they've loaded our tune.
Minor spark blow out will not cause misfire codes that we have seen.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on January 26, 2016, 02:32:39 PMI'm going to load the stock tune when I take my care into the shop to get the windshield washer fluid pump fixed. lol Such a stupid problem to have with the car. 43,000 miles and they won't cover it under factory warranty.
Why take it to dealer for the windshield washer pump?
Especially out of warranty?
It's a 10min DIY job! Crawl under the psgr side of car, unfasten the smaller under belly pan to gain access, reach up, unplug wiring harness to pump, un-snap the pump from the plastic tabs formed into reservoir, replace with new pump.
Wallah!
Oh, & I've never experienced these popping issues that you speaketh of....
FWIW to your numbers tabulating.
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Popping sounds could be "backfires" through the intake manifold also. Check thoroughly for loose/split hoses/connections. Do you still have the OEM intake? Might be worth putting that back on and seeing if there's any difference. The K&N might be magnifying these sounds.
I would order a new set of (COP) total six needed and ba fairly cheap alternative which might fix your issues,sometimes the boot gets ripped due to heat and the spring inside overtime gets corroded because of moisture buildup and can cause misfires,a failing coil may cause the engine to backfire to emit a (loud pop from the engine)during sudden acceleration or even cause the car to shudder and will experience poor mpg. Z http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3422364&cc=3300371&jnid=485&jpid=0 (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3422364&cc=3300371&jnid=485&jpid=0)
Have you logged it to see what is going on? Watch fuel pressures, misfires, throttle plate position etc...when it happens and then you will at least have a clue what is happening assuming you have the capability to do so. Use Forscan on a phone and get an MX adapter for the best resolution. (assuming you don't have an SCT handy since you are Livernois / Mycal customer) It's a good investment anyway to know what is going on with your car...
Only time I had popping noise was when a small pressure line that had no clamp on it came off. I had an over boost code. Dealer replaced the hose and added a clamp. The car also ran like crap.
2010 Stl Bl Met, Loaded, non PP, LMS 4+X, K&N drop in, 170 T-stat, 3 bar MAP, SP534
Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 26, 2016, 06:57:55 PM
Have you logged it to see what is going on? Watch fuel pressures, misfires, throttle plate position etc...when it happens and then you will at least have a clue what is happening assuming you have the capability to do so. Use Forscan on a phone and get an MX adapter for the best resolution. (assuming you don't have an SCT handy since you are Livernois / Mycal customer) It's a good investment anyway to know what is going on with your car...
Good idea... But maybe just run a vehicle health report first.... Might be some info there.
Quote from: BiGMaC on January 26, 2016, 09:20:57 PM
Quote from: ecoboostsho on January 26, 2016, 06:57:55 PM
Have you logged it to see what is going on? Watch fuel pressures, misfires, throttle plate position etc...when it happens and then you will at least have a clue what is happening assuming you have the capability to do so. Use Forscan on a phone and get an MX adapter for the best resolution. (assuming you don't have an SCT handy since you are Livernois / Mycal customer) It's a good investment anyway to know what is going on with your car...
Good idea... But maybe just run a vehicle health report first.... Might be some info there.
I think Brenton is to busy focusing on his new anticipated video in the works exclusively on Tangents Daily so do subscribe,Btw did you make a video on the popping madness from hell part 3,at the very end its all about the ratings.lol. Z
I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.
I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR, Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..
Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.
It's cause they put butane in winter gas so I helps to vaporize more easily in winter. Summer blends don't do it. Also +13 cars seem to be more fuel sensitive than the 10-12 cars. My '12 didn't do it, but the '13 does. I've changed plugs, coils, tighten clamps. Not panicking here.
Have a local buddy who was experiencing a little "breaking up" during WOT at high rpms...finally got him to load the 91 V9 tune. All is fine on that file........
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What MY vehicle is he running, SHOnUup?
Yeah, I have a similar issue, but only when on the highway (60-80 mph), and do a hard kick-down to pass. It bogs down a couple seconds, blow out some black smoke, then starts to get moving. This started with 93 performance V4 on my 2015 XSport. Never had this issue with V3. Stock plugs were gapped at 2000 miles to .030", now at 18000 miles.
Straight line acceleration is fine.
I was told winter blend and try dropping the tune down to 91 perf v4.
I just switched to 91 perf v4 and it did it to me again. I'm going to try this one a little longer to see if it keeps doing it, then switch back to 93 perf v3 and see how it is.
I have always run the same (busy) station 93 Shell fuel.
On top of it, I have also been having issues with my tuner "programming interrupted, return to factory settings" (which takes about 6 tries to get to. Just received my 3rd tuner (first 2 had the same issue) which has worked going to the 91 tune without issue so far. Anthony has been great with helping me out with the tuner issue.
Quote from: SHOdded on January 27, 2016, 06:55:34 AM
What MY vehicle is he running, SHOnUup?
2013
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Guys the thing to keep in mind is that, like BAM said, there are several additives present in winter fuels that have different thermal properties from your normal fueling. These thermal characteristics will attribute to the quirks in your tuning. Driving especially aggressively WILL only exacerbate these issues. There is no logging required, only some restraint.
The facts are that the base fuel present in the car is already inferior VS "regular" fuel that is available the other 8 months of the year, and then you are demanding the same performance from it...impossible. Adding insult to injury, E85 was added which is now 40% less volume. Inferior fuel+lower volume fuel+demanding more fuel+driving aggressively+a platform that is still starved for fuel=less than desirable driving characteristics.
I get that making a thread like this is great for a business looking more daily unique eyeballs, but it is slightly disingenuous to blame the tune. The right foot and fueling equation is what is causing the "issues". From day one we have advised AGAINST using E85 on a non-flex fuel platform. Even clients, like SHOnUup, that have displayed several successful results still hear from us that we would really prefer he didn't use E85.
Those looks I get at CAD...they could melt the soul. Lol
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Quote from: SHOnUup on January 27, 2016, 09:51:18 AMThose looks I get at CAD...they could melt the soul. Lol
You are quite the soul melter there Rich.
No homo.
Ok we need a group hug, ahhhhh.
Quote from: bamsho on January 27, 2016, 10:43:56 AM
Ok we need a group hug, ahhhhh.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/25/256b028d06316c6e783b2837ac9eb215e414693fe0f1b50c032c368282a75aa4.jpg)
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 27, 2016, 10:56:56 AM
Quote from: bamsho on January 27, 2016, 10:43:56 AM
Ok we need a group hug, ahhhhh.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/25/256b028d06316c6e783b2837ac9eb215e414693fe0f1b50c032c368282a75aa4.jpg)
Looks like Jaime's posing for Rich here, while Rich is moving in for that group hug..... check out the smirk on Rich's face...
Bow chicka wow wow.
Weirdos.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/bpd1151/LMS%202015%20Spring%20CAD%20at%20Milan%20Dragway/20150917_140711_zpswvcdzuh2.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/bpd1151/media/LMS%202015%20Spring%20CAD%20at%20Milan%20Dragway/20150917_140711_zpswvcdzuh2.jpg.html)
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Weirdos, huh. Your right there with us.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/8c335acf1cecb35ea84a6ce128ca5c57.jpg)
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OMG too funny, I love it.
Wow.....Black Jack you should not be blowing any smoke or experience any hesitation...That seems to be symptoms of a car that is running like crap.
If you have to use restraint with the pedal because of winter fuel I would want my money back for a tune that costs top dollar...Not hating just saying.
I have yet to see high levels of knock with winter fuel here in Pa
Biggest problem so far, and it's not really that big of a problem is slightly less fuel pressure when temps are below 15 degrees F. due to air density and needing more fuel to ahieve desired lambda. At 18 psi in 10 degrees fuel pressure is below 1000 psi below 4k rpms and car maintained AFR just fine, no knocking no hesitation no popping....I have yet to have or see a problem with logs due to winter fuel
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 12:17:09 PM
Wow.....Black Jack you should not be blowing any smoke or experience any hesitation...That seems to be symptoms of a car that is running like crap.
Thing is, punch it from a dead stop and it's fine. Only have issues during hard throttle/ trans kick-down at higher speeds.
Quote from: BlackJac on January 27, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 12:17:09 PM
Wow.....Black Jack you should not be blowing any smoke or experience any hesitation...That seems to be symptoms of a car that is running like crap.
Thing is, punch it from a dead stop and it's fine. Only have issues during hard throttle/ trans kick-down at higher speeds.
I would just make sure there's no visible sign of oil on the turbo lines,especially the rear by the firewall, Blackjac how long have you noticed the black smoke?. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on January 27, 2016, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: BlackJac on January 27, 2016, 12:58:22 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 12:17:09 PM
Wow.....Black Jack you should not be blowing any smoke or experience any hesitation...That seems to be symptoms of a car that is running like crap.
Thing is, punch it from a dead stop and it's fine. Only have issues during hard throttle/ trans kick-down at higher speeds.
I would just make sure there's no visible sign of oil on the turbo lines,especially the rear by the firewall, Blackjac how long have you noticed the black smoke?. Z
The black smoke only happened a couple times when I had a bad hesitation during the kickdown, then throttle kicked in and blew the black smoke out the exhaust. Hard kickdown at higher speeds isn't something I do all the time, but when I do I noticed this issue. Any other driving condition it runs fine.
No oil leaks in the driveway, or at last oil change I did at 15,000 miles, which I checked the entire underside on my lift.
It should never smoke like that
Sorry to say but that is BS when livernois says you need to have some restraint in the winter and not drive so aggressively...that may sound like im picking on lms....and even though i like to pick on them the fact that they say that is garbage for what their tune and device cost...i would expect better....and better can be had as far as cold weather driving
Check the plugs to see if they are wet or smell of fuel after an incident occurs. May have fuel injector issues. I know, I know, too early, but ...
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 27, 2016, 06:45:06 AM
Have a local buddy who was experiencing a little "breaking up" during WOT at high rpms...finally got him to load the 91 V9 tune. All is fine on that file........
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But going to a lower octane tune would lose some power, so it kind of defeats the purpose?
Quote from: BlackJac on January 27, 2016, 07:18:46 AM
Yeah, I have a similar issue, but only when on the highway (60-80 mph), and do a hard kick-down to pass. It bogs down a couple seconds, blow out some black smoke, then starts to get moving. This started with 93 performance V4 on my 2015 XSport. Never had this issue with V3. Stock plugs were gapped at 2000 miles to .030", now at 18000 miles.
Straight line acceleration is fine.
I was told winter blend and try dropping the tune down to 91 perf v4.
I just switched to 91 perf v4 and it did it to me again. I'm going to try this one a little longer to see if it keeps doing it, then switch back to 93 perf v3 and see how it is.
I have always run the same (busy) station 93 Shell fuel.
On top of it, I have also been having issues with my tuner "programming interrupted, return to factory settings" (which takes about 6 tries to get to. Just received my 3rd tuner (first 2 had the same issue) which has worked going to the 91 tune without issue so far. Anthony has been great with helping me out with the tuner issue.
Same issue with ours. I had them resend me V3 tune. That was after I changed plugs and put a can of Torco in it to no avail.
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 12:17:09 PM
Wow.....Black Jack you should not be blowing any smoke or experience any hesitation...That seems to be symptoms of a car that is running like crap.
If you have to use restraint with the pedal because of winter fuel I would want my money back for a tune that costs top dollar...Not hating just saying.
I have yet to see high levels of knock with winter fuel here in Pa
Biggest problem so far, and it's not really that big of a problem is slightly less fuel pressure when temps are below 15 degrees F. due to air density and needing more fuel to ahieve desired lambda. At 18 psi in 10 degrees fuel pressure is below 1000 psi below 4k rpms and car maintained AFR just fine, no knocking no hesitation no popping....I have yet to have or see a problem with logs due to winter fuel
All the updates are free.
AJ,
Can we keep it clean please? We did not insult your tuning genius. Please do not insult our capabilities. You put a bounty out on our tune, no? That would make it seem that the premium is worth it...if not, why the interest?
The Explorer is a completely different ball of wax when compared to the SHO in the OP. We really should keep the two separated. Even you cannot argue that the fuel that is available in the winter months is inferior in quality to what is readily available throughout the remainder of the year. With all of the other additives how do the law of thermodynamics not apply anymore? Things like E85, E10, C4H10 and other fuels all have different chemical properties, and these would obviously lend to different reactions. These differences WILL lead to quirks in performance VS the warmer months.
Quote from: black99lightning on January 27, 2016, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 27, 2016, 06:45:06 AM
Have a local buddy who was experiencing a little "breaking up" during WOT at high rpms...finally got him to load the 91 V9 tune. All is fine on that file........
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But going to a lower octane tune would lose some power, so it kind of defeats the purpose?
I've talked with many Torrie tuned guys that have lower tune files for when the temp drops below a certain degree also.
From reading posts here for some time, seems quite a few people have been running lower tune files in the winter for precautionary reasons for years.
I truly don't think we can expect a tune that is pushing the fuel limits in good conditions with better fuel to be the same tune we use during winter with a lesser fuel and them COLD temps.
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Its actually really easy to compensate for aircharge temp...no reason to have a winter tune and summer tune...just lazy tuning if u ask me...its not much to ask really
You failed to answer the questions...that seems like rather lazy posting.
Taking cheap shots at us is not furthering the thread, nor is it helping anyone. We will not engage in any slander back and forth with you or anyone else. We let our extremely long and spotless record and the records that we set speak for themselves. If you would like to share your prowess with the community feel free.
If you wish to only try to show how much better you are than us produce world records, we did.
Something doesnt seem so spotless at the moment...good point i dont intend to build my daily driven taurus to world record levels so you got me there
Actually i do share numerical values on a regular basis to help the community.
And i did just point out where to look and how easily compensations are for cold climate without needing separate tunes
So then why not stick to factual/helpful posting, like we do? That is what companies do...help. We have never shied away from an issue. We have never shied away from helping another company's clients either. You are just taking slanderous slights at us. We are more than happy to have you HELP in the thread, but we will not allow someone to barraide the company nor our clients. You are the only one that is arguing the validity of the lack of quality of fueling in the winter months. Why is that? Why is it that all of our competitors often refer/differ clients to us because of our expertise, yet you feel it necessary to do the antithesis?
As for spotless, we have not failed a client's car. I think that a record like ours is deemed spotless.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/bpd1151/Miscellaneous/The%20Great%20Gatsby_zpsatzybqmp.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/bpd1151/media/Miscellaneous/The%20Great%20Gatsby_zpsatzybqmp.jpg.html)
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Thank you.
I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg. Z
So far, this winter, I have found BP 87 to work splendidly in my '07 Edge. Previously, the only fuel that had worked flawlessly at this time of year had been from this one particular Exxon station. No idea on the blending at either station, but they are high volume stations for sure. Wouldn't go to a low volume station, even if it's top tier, unless forced to.
Fuel quality does make a significant difference in driveability. I wonder though if enough can be inferred from the ACT to keep the vehicle operating smoothly throughout the rev range, albeit with a slight drop in hp/tq, especially as the EB engines obviously adapt to fuel quality as demonstrated in the LOR.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 27, 2016, 05:27:16 PM
So then why not stick to factual/helpful posting, like we do? That is what companies do...help. We have never shied away from an issue. We have never shied away from helping another company's clients either. You are just taking slanderous slights at us. We are more than happy to have you HELP in the thread, but we will not allow someone to barraide the company nor our clients. You are the only one that is arguing the validity of the lack of quality of fueling in the winter months. Why is that? Why is it that all of our competitors often refer/differ clients to us because of our expertise, yet you feel it necessary to do the antithesis?
As for spotless, we have not failed a client's car. I think that a record like ours is deemed spotless.
Being that i am an independent i do not have to be diplomatic or post with taste..i do what is fun.....and i havent barraided you yet lol i prefer keeping the good stuff i know about others private.
Most people here, due to being uneducated in tuning, perceive the lack of a refined tune as a fuel quality problem that manifests itself as knock....which can happen. ..but from what ive seen these engines dont like to vary much from the stock spark tables...maybe we can get together and go over some datalogs and i can show u a one tune fits all for extreme temp swings...or maybe i just have some super gas where i live
A couple of suggestions....
Put you oem intake back on...I know, blasphemy right?
Consider though that since the fuel system is already stressed ...coupled with denser cold air and fuel that already has oxygen in it the intake could be creating lean situations, especially during fast WOT transients. If you are adding E-85 this will only make it worse as you are carrying even more O2 in the fuel.
Also, if you are in a fuel challenged area you may want to consider hitting up BND Brian for some ACES IV. I've had success with it and I'm running my current E-20 tune which is a couple revisions hotter since my last strip run. I know DX has also been able to run his v93 tune on 91 Cali crap gas without issue, so maybe it would be worth the 80 bucks for a quart to get you through winter. It goes a long way as you're only using 2-3 OZ per fillup.
There are 12 states that have winter fuel volatility that is lower than the Fed standard. Maybe we can spot a pattern...
http://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/state-fuels (http://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/state-fuels)
As usual YMMV.
Also look at what years the cars, xsport are dealing with. My '12 never had any winter issues, but my '13 does. I think has the old parts parts transfered over, so the only difference is the ECU. It's that gas, plain and simple. I beat my head against the wall trying to figure out my trouble and finally came to the verdict of crap winter gas. Not sure where you live Black, but do a search to see if there any non ethanol stations around you and try some. ATP, find a hole and crawl in it, you sure aren't helping any, not sure why you are so hell bent on bashing Livernois, but grow up.
Guys, it's important to try and stay civil, please! The OP stated his opinion that the issue is occurring with the Livernois tune, maybe it is with other tuners also. We don't know. Ask them and their views on the matter directly.
Why is better fuel more important to the 13+? The question is, I think, a chicken-and-egg question. Ok, so we "fix" the issue with summer fuel. But is that a "band-aid" (albeit working) solution? Is there a flaw in the 13 PCM programming, or are the sensors being used with different parameters (tighter), or ...? The reason it is important to make the distinction is that, for example, in days of yore, engines designed to run on 87 would start to ping or knock. The common DIY solution was to use a higher-grade gasoline (89, 91, 93, etc), whatever it took to stop that ping/knock. Rather than actually fix the problem, which might be dirty carb/FI, or valves or timing belt etc. One simple test is for the owner to run a known good fuel in the wintertime as many have suggested, to see if the problem disappears. Maybe a VP/racing fuel even. We can all chip in and help fund this type of test. Stock tune vs aftermaket tune. We still won't directly know how the PCM is handling the data flow, though.
The tunes are hard to fault, but no vendor is infallible, "learning" experiences are inevitable. Asking questions, pushing boundaries is what we are all here for. Sometimes we will find an answer, sometimes we won't. And that's OK.
I thought the OP would be more engaged in wanting to know the probability in finding a solution,think he hasnt been active since starting this post on page one,think he's just sitting back with a box of popcorn and enjoying the SHO,makes you wonder. Btw his issues started right after mixing some E85 in the mix correct? To the OP HOW MUCH E85 did you add initially??
Quote from: ZSHO on January 28, 2016, 07:54:33 AM
I thought the OP would be more engaged in wanting to know the probability in finding a solution,think he hasnt been active since starting this post on page one,think he's just sitting back with a box of popcorn and enjoying the SHO,makes you wonder. Btw his issues started right after mixing some E85 in the mix correct? Z
Yeah, it would be nice to know if he's still mixing.
However, 1.5 gallons put it right at the 15% threshold.
I really only see it causing an issue if he had a bunch of water in the tank the E grabbed.
Without any logs or any other kind of supporting data we're basically peeing up a rope here.
Here's some interesting data from the EPA applications for the 3.5 GTDI
2010
http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=22234&flag=1 (http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=22234&flag=1)
Fuel Injector Signal from PCM Fuel flow N/A Static Flow Rate: 163.2 +/- 4.9 g/min
Regulated Fuel Pressure Signal from PCM Fuel pressure N/A 65 psi
Fuel Pump Signal from PCM Fuel Flow N/A Flow: Max. 145 LPH @ 12V/400 kPa
(SAE Net Standard Conditions)
2013
http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=29137&flag=1 (http://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=29137&flag=1)
Fuel Injector Signal from PCM Fuel Flow N/A Static Flow Rate: 923.5 +/- 46.2 g/min
Regulated Fuel Pressure Signal from PCM Fuel Pressure N/A N/A - SMRFS
Fuel Flow N/A Nom. Flow Rate:253 L/H (400kpa-12V)
Looks to be a pretty large difference in injector and LPFP flow rate...
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 28, 2016, 08:02:30 AMYeah, it would be nice to know if he's still mixing.
However, 1.5 gallons put it right at the 15% threshold.
That is only assuming the tank was full. Since the OP has yet to contribute we do not know. I would hazard to guess that the tank was not full. Hence, we have greater fueling issues.
SHOddded, you are 110% correct about keeping it above board. That is why we are asking posting to do two things:
A, BE HELPFUL
B, Keep the 2 topics that have been posted about separate. The XSport and the SHO are 2 different vehicles that are experiencing 2 different things.
The SHO is a fueling failure that is user created. I think that all of the posters using logic all agree there. Whereas the XSport has plugs that are at the end of their suggested lifespan. We recommend changing those plugs every around 15k miles. The black smoke at downshift when running highway speeds can be attributed to the same thing. The reasoning for siting the plugs as part of the problem (along with fueling) is the black smoke comes from...fuel. We have explained this to Mike (
prior to this thread) that we recommend running V3 during the winter months. Version 4 for the XSport, just like V9 for the SHO, is as aggressive of a tune as we will release. This being the case, when you meet quirks with inferior fueling lower the tune. That does not require logging. That is fairly straightforward. To log and take away from the V4 or V9 tuning you are only encroaching upon making it V3 or V8 for the SHO. This being the case, why not run the proven tune? There were no issues with the tune. We get that it is hard to back off of the power fix, but we will always recommend what we know is proven and safe. We will never recommend anything that will hurt your vehicle.
Quote from: ZSHO on January 27, 2016, 05:32:58 PM
I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg. Z
twinsies! looool took delivery of my car aug of 2013 and its a 2014 SHO, I have about 32,300mi on it right now. :) I'm in PA, right now I'm using either Shell or Sunoco 93, I wish Sunoco still sold 94 :(
Quote from: jbeez on January 28, 2016, 10:12:49 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 27, 2016, 05:32:58 PM
I have put over 36,000 miles since purchasing my car new back on 8/13 and have drove through so many states and N.J for the most part has crap gas and no E-85 fuel and no Chevron gas stations,plainly 93 octane is not the same everywhere you go,so its important to choose the best octane available locally and use a well frequent,high turn around gas station,makes you wonder why many people experience poor mpg. Z
twinsies! looool took delivery of my car aug of 2013 and its a 2014 SHO, I have about 32,300mi on it right now. :) I'm in PA, right now I'm using either Shell or Sunoco 93, I wish Sunoco still sold 94 :(
Thats funny,considering your car is stock hows she behaving with the winter blend fuel,any difference compared to the summer blend fuel? any issues of any kind? thanx Z
Quote from: SHOdded on January 28, 2016, 07:23:00 AM
Guys, it's important to try and stay civil, please! The OP stated his opinion that the issue is occurring with the Livernois tune, maybe it is with other tuners also. We don't know. Ask them and their views on the matter directly.
Why is better fuel more important to the 13+? The question is, I think, a chicken-and-egg question. Ok, so we "fix" the issue with summer fuel. But is that a "band-aid" (albeit working) solution? Is there a flaw in the 13 PCM programming, or are the sensors being used with different parameters (tighter), or ...? The reason it is important to make the distinction is that, for example, in days of yore, engines designed to run on 87 would start to ping or knock. The common DIY solution was to use a higher-grade gasoline (89, 91, 93, etc), whatever it took to stop that ping/knock. Rather than actually fix the problem, which might be dirty carb/FI, or valves or timing belt etc. One simple test is for the owner to run a known good fuel in the wintertime as many have suggested, to see if the problem disappears. Maybe a VP/racing fuel even. We can all chip in and help fund this type of test. Stock tune vs aftermaket tune. We still won't directly know how the PCM is handling the data flow, though.
The tunes are hard to fault, but no vendor is infallible, "learning" experiences are inevitable. Asking questions, pushing boundaries is what we are all here for. Sometimes we will find an answer, sometimes we won't. And that's OK.
I've been more than pleased with Livernois and their tuning and most importantly their helpfulness. I have no doubt that the revision I received is not compatible with the winter fuels. They graciously have sent me stage 3 tuning and stage 4. During winter I'll keep stage 3, when warmer weather returns I'll install stage 4.
Quote from: ZSHO on January 26, 2016, 09:53:03 PM
I think Brenton is to busy focusing on his new anticipated video in the works exclusively on Tangents Daily so do subscribe,Btw did you make a video on the popping madness from hell part 3,at the very end its all about the ratings.lol. Z
LOL THAT is hilarious. Sorry guys got busy at work and didn't get a chance to check back in.
To answer everyone else's questions --- there are a lot but I'll do my best:
Livernois - I am no longer blending the gas. It was a temporary experiment that produced mixed results. I'm now at a point where I'm confident I have 100% 93 octane gas (winter blend).
BPD- I haven't been able to get under my car yet to check it out. If its really that easy, that is definitely a DYI thing. Thank you for the info.
Everyone else -- please STOP BLAMING Livernois for this. I am not SLAMMING Livernois, nor would I ever do that on my video blog. I would like them to datalog this issue to see what is happening. The popping is absolutely out the exhaust / back end. I'm going to get a video of my car popping inside and outside the car. The car when its popping will pull timing. I'll be loading the 91 3bar tonight as well to see if there are any improvements.
Why do you think it will be pilling timing when popping?....it could be anything....who cares about a video..datalogs are great...not being a smart ass...but data is better...how will you data log and what will you view it with?
And if you have unburnt fuel, you will get popping out the exhaust (so to speak :) ) as it ignites. Could be plugs, could be injectors. At least plugs are relatively easy to check.
Hey AJ. The video could be useful, esp if we see this:
http://youtu.be/vEashMzvifg?t=1m4s (http://youtu.be/vEashMzvifg?t=1m4s)
^AWESOMENESS^
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on January 28, 2016, 10:59:33 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 26, 2016, 09:53:03 PM
I think Brenton is to busy focusing on his new anticipated video in the works exclusively on Tangents Daily so do subscribe,Btw did you make a video on the popping madness from hell part 3,at the very end its all about the ratings.lol. Z
LOL THAT is hilarious. Sorry guys got busy at work and didn't get a chance to check back in.
To answer everyone else's questions --- there are a lot but I'll do my best:
Livernois - I am no longer blending the gas. It was a temporary experiment that produced mixed results. I'm now at a point where I'm confident I have 100% 93 octane gas (winter blend).
BPD- I haven't been able to get under my car yet to check it out. If its really that easy, that is definitely a DYI thing. Thank you for the info.
Everyone else -- please STOP BLAMING Livernois for this. I am not SLAMMING Livernois, nor would I ever do that on my video blog. I would like them to datalog this issue to see what is happening. The popping is absolutely out the exhaust / back end. I'm going to get a video of my car popping inside and outside the car. The car when its popping will pull timing. I'll be loading the 91 3bar tonight as well to see if there are any improvements.
Man, there is a crapload of E0 in WI!
http://www.buyrealgas.com/Wisconsin.html (http://www.buyrealgas.com/Wisconsin.html)
All things being equal you should be less fuel challenged than the E10 guys which I'd say is most folks.
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 28, 2016, 11:07:02 AM
Why do you think it will be pilling timing when popping?....it could be anything....who cares about a video..datalogs are great...not being a smart ass...but data is better...how will you data log and what will you view it with?
Here is my point. Why should I data log for a company who created my tune? Further, why should I be buying ANOTHER device to data log for them?
They should work with me on the data logging, especially since I bought the 3 bar, the plugs, and the tuner from them.
I'll try the factory intake again to see if this helps as well after I try out the 91 tune.
Only a 1.7% difference in energy between winter and summer blends...
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/ (http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/)
Map based fuel logic...i wouldnt waste time with the intake...if it was me id look at data then change parts...you changing the intake is like a parts changing mechanic that didnt properly diagnose a problem..just change stuff til its fixed....there is a better way
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 28, 2016, 11:37:12 AM
Map based fuel logic...i wouldnt waste time with the intake...if it was me id look at data then change parts...you changing the intake is like a parts changing mechanic that didnt properly diagnose a problem..just change stuff til its fixed....there is a better way
I agree. Data logging.
LMS has been very helpful and has always gotten back to me right away when I need them to. I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing them by posting the issues I've had. Just posted here since it may be fuel related and the topic was brought up, and thought it might generate other helpful ideas for me to look into.
After running 93 v4, I'm getting time with 91 v4, then I'll switch to 93 v3, so I can get a good feel of how it's running with each tune. If the issue doesn't clear up, I'll order some plugs and see if that helps.
I have less than 15k on these plugs. I shouldn't be having these issues....
Although, to support FoMoCo's idea, changing the intake may be a valid test. For whatever reason, the MDesigns intake seems to create less soot at the exhaust tip. Though overall performance is relatively unaffected, something DOES change with the type of intake you have on the vehicle. This obviously does not supplant datalogging, but it IS such an easy test to perform (compared to changing fuels even), why not do it (if you have the time)?
Tunes eat plugs for breakfast, lunch, dinner, brunch, lundin, bedtime snacks, boudoir snacks, you name it. 15K is not at all an unusual interval in this case. You are stressing components a lot with a tune, and you need them to perform optimally. Pay to play.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on January 28, 2016, 11:24:22 AM
Here is my point. Why should I data log for a company who created my tune? Further, why should I be buying ANOTHER device to data log for them?
They should work with me on the data logging, especially since I bought the 3 bar, the plugs, and the tuner from them.
I'll try the factory intake again to see if this helps as well after I try out the 91 tune.
Logging is something that you would HAVE to do with a less experienced tuner regardless. We have happily provided you with days worth of phone and email support. What you decide to do with our advice and support is up to you. You routinely try to find a better mousetrap by expounding upon something that we have already spent tons of resources on producing. The likelihood of success in a situation like that is slight. If you decide to disregard our advice how are we culpable?
We have already spotted the issues, and suggested fixes. You do not have to work with us on logging at all if you do not want to. We have already explained the suspected issues, and solution for said problem.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 28, 2016, 11:27:33 AM
Only a 1.7% difference in energy between winter and summer blends...
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/ (http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/)
Great find! I would hope that this article would dispel the myth of there not being a difference in the 2 qualities of fuel. The difference in potential kinetic energy does not display the difference in properties nor reaction characteristics.
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 28, 2016, 11:37:12 AM....there is a better way
There is, use the recommended fueling and tuning combo.
Quote from: SHOdded on January 28, 2016, 11:50:42 AM
Although, to support FoMoCo's idea, changing the intake may be a valid test. For whatever reason, the MDesigns intake seems to create less soot at the exhaust tip. Though overall performance is relatively unaffected, something DOES change with the type of intake you have on the vehicle. This obviously does not supplant datalogging, but it IS such an easy test to perform (compared to changing fuels even), why not do it (if you have the time)?
Tunes eat plugs for breakfast, lunch, dinner, brunch, lundin, bedtime snacks, boudoir snacks, you name it. 15K is not at all an unusual interval in this case. You are stressing components a lot with a tune, and you need them to perform optimally. Pay to play.
That again is something that we recommended early on, but that advice has fallen upon deaf ears.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 11:58:42 AM
Logging is something that you would HAVE to do with a less experienced tuner regardless. We have happily provided you with days worth of phone and email support. What you decide to do with our advice and support is up to you. You routinely try to find a better mousetrap by expounding upon something that we have already spent tons of resources on producing. The likelihood of success in a situation like that is slight. If you decide to disregard our advice how are we culpable?
We have already spotted the issues, and suggested fixes. You do not have to work with us on logging at all if you do not want to. We have already explained the suspected issues, and solution for said problem.
When these suggestions don't work... I'll be sure to create a video with snapshots of these conversations. Mostly deplorable response right here. I told you I am going to TRY what you are suggesting, However the POPPING is a symptom to "something". That "SOMETHING" can be found with data logging. I don't want a damn Band-Aid, I want a fix to the problem and know WHY its happening.
If I worked with another vendor, I would already have been data logging. Don't give me crap about "not choosing" to do fixes with your organization. I believe I've been patient enough given my history of problems with a bad tuner, popping with the downpipes, Popping with the winter gas, Popping with the summer gas. If you recall, one of my videos was from summer with the popping noise on SUMMER 93 octane gas..
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
That again is something that we recommended early on, but that advice has fallen upon deaf ears.
If you really want to go there, I also had the SAME popping problem with the downpipes AND when I took the downpipes off with less than 5k on the plugs. I'm not buying into your deflection.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 28, 2016, 11:27:33 AM
Only a 1.7% difference in energy between winter and summer blends...
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/ (http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what-is-the-difference-between-summer-and-winter-blend-gasoline/)
Great find! I would hope that this article would dispel the myth of there not being a difference in the 2 qualities of fuel. The difference in potential kinetic energy does not display the difference in properties nor reaction characteristics.
You take it the wrong way...it doesnt dispel the myth of there NOT being a difference but rather numerically difines how similar the fuels are to eachother.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on January 28, 2016, 12:38:36 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
That again is something that we recommended early on, but that advice has fallen upon deaf ears.
If you really want to go there, I also had the SAME popping problem with the downpipes AND when I took the downpipes off with less than 5k on the plugs. I'm not buying into your deflection.
It is not deflection. You regularly bring up threads like this. You have made countless ill advised mods to several proven parts, and have documented them. We cannot help if you do things that we do not recommend doing like adding E85, cutting off random exhaust sections or not adhering to the suggested life of parts.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 01:42:42 PM
It is not deflection. You regularly bring up threads like this. You have made countless ill advised mods to several proven parts, and have documented them. We cannot help if you do things that we do not recommend doing like adding E85, cutting off random exhaust sections or not adhering to the suggested life of parts.
Now it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about. When did I EVER cut my exhaust? Did I actually do that because the last time I checked I still have my factory DPs and Corsa Exhaust.
My current build LIVERNOIS PROVIDED:
1. LMS Tuner
2. LMS Pre-Gapped Plugs
3. LMS 3-Bar
4. LMS t-stat
The only mods I have that are not livernois are:
1. K&N CAI Intake
2. Corsa Cat Back Exhaust.
3. A Full tank of 93 octane gas with NO e85 blend. In fact, I retuned since the last time I used e85 for the fuel curves.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
From what I understand, Unleashed tunes don't have this winter blend problem.
We recommend using V8 during the winter months.
The plugs as we all agree are at the end of their lifespan.
This is not an issue.
Winter blend.
We are not trying to fight with you, but it seems like you are trying to not follow what we prescribe for the sake of viewership. We are not in the thread to fight with you. We have offered up a fix. A fix that everyone seems to agree with. What you decide to do with that information is up to you.
Ok...have you checked your plugs?
If not, why would you even be posting? If you haven't crawled under your ride to look at anything, how in the world can you point to anything?
Sounds like it's actually a ploy to accuse, instead of investigate?
If the fuel has a 1.7% difference in energy, what does that change to in a direct injected application....as corn gets an upgrade when directly injected?
And are we still running the "hot" tune?
This is getting pretty rhetorical IMO....
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I have also recently experienced the same symptoms (popping noises). They only happened under full Acceleration right before the shift change or during the shift at high rpm.
Although this has happened with traction control completely off, it is worse when traction control is on. The traction control light will start flashing and the popping will sound. It will only be one pop if the transmission shifts, but if the transmission doesn't, it gets hung up on the rev limiter and continues to pop until I let off the gas.
As far as the black smoke. I saw this once when on the highway and getting on it. It downshifted, hesitated and puffed a little black smoke.
All these symptoms have only happened in the winter running the 3bar V8 tune.
I have no codes showing. I found no oil leaks and there are no other hesitations besides what I described.
My plugs are gapped at .030. To me it originally felt like the traction control kicking in. It kind of feels and sounds like when I had a bad coil on another vehicle, except I don't get the same low rpm lugging symptoms.
My Second set of plugs probably have 20k miles on them so I'm changing them this week anyway. Other then that, I can control the symptoms by the way I accelerate and get by until summer blend fuel comes back.
2013 SHO PP
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 01:10:26 AM
I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.
I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR, Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..
Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.
AJPTURBO
Sorry for the late response on this post
This shows your inexperience with engines an fuel. E85 will most definitely cause popping with these cars (IF OUT OF FUEL). The car is on the verge of being out of fuel pressure and lean on e10 gasoline. Please don't advise people with inaccurate advice. This kind of stuff causes major problems with the fuel system and engine. I wish people would advise the correct information. The winter is here an temperatures are colder which results in substantially more fuel required (especially with E85).
You seem to know very little about datalogging, a pid is no where near the data you need to be looking at with "said" companies data log. It is for diagnostic data for repair shops. Not for development.
Can we confirm the actual fuel in the car?
We don't have people complaining with these cars about drivability issues since initial release in 2013. I think we are on to something with the fuel. We are committed to finding the problem out. If we need to we will make a trip to the customer an find out the problem. This is a car problem not a tuning problem.
We stand behind our customers
LME
Please educate the community with "good information" not opinion.
So the longterm solution for the fuel problem could be to have a fuel system upgrade? Which components in particular would you recommend: the LPFP, HPFP, injectors, etc.?
Definitely need to change your spark plugs and make sure all plugs are torqued properly.think its 14lbs of torque and while your there check to see if any of the (COP)Coil on plugs(boots)are ripped or torn,especially after reading this article. http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=5090 (http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=5090)
All this debate comes down to is fueling. Plain and simple. The weakest link has and always will be the DI pump. In stock trim, yes the ECU can compensate for different blends of fuel, but since we tuned these cars that window shrinks a lot. So until someone finally steps up and R&D's a bigger DI pump, this debate will go on. I would be the first one to spend $800 on a bigger DI pump in a heart beat. Why do you think the 2nd gen 3.5 EB had dual fuel set up on the GT and Raptor? Just think about it. Yes you can data log, but all your doing to tuning for the crap fuel.
To clarify OP stated he is running E-0 which apparently WI has lots of.
To the OP was curious to know if you ever got a chance to properly tighten that rear #3 spark plug under the charge pipe figuring your issues seemingly started right after installing the plugs,just trying to troubleshoot and help ya out. Z http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4587.msg72383.html#msg72383 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4587.msg72383.html#msg72383)
I would definitely recheck all the plugs too see what they look like. Did he also state that also his issue started after mixing E85. If so I would find away to check fuel pressure on the lpfp. The E85 could of damaged it.
Quote from: bamsho on January 29, 2016, 02:39:27 PM
If so I would find away to check fuel pressure on the lpfp. The E85 could of damaged it.
Low pressure pump is a non issue
Doubt the e85 damaged it....just curious why u would think that?....the fuel filler says e0-e15 because the high pressure pump really cant support more E as far as ford thinks, with their saftey net in mind.im pretty sure all the fuel system has been upgraded to handle various fuels...fomoco posted something about that a while back
I think on a stock tune you pretty much have 2000 psi at the rail at wot all the time so everyone running a 3 bar tune on pure gas would have fuel pressure below what ford preferred....
Its not a ffv car because the pump wouldnt have the output not because the components can't handle ethanol fuels
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
Quote from: SHOdded on January 29, 2016, 03:00:55 PM
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
My sunoco says E10
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 29, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 29, 2016, 03:00:55 PM
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
My sunoco says E10
I think I saw you mention you're in PA, I'm in Lower Bucks, are you close? I guess our stations use similar fuel if you are, maybe also even if we're not close
Quote from: jbeez on January 29, 2016, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 29, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 29, 2016, 03:00:55 PM
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
My sunoco says E10
I think I saw you mention you're in PA, I'm in Lower Bucks, are you close? I guess our stations use similar fuel if you are, maybe also even if we're not close
Pittsburgh..i know nothing of lower bucks lol....
And happy 1000th post to me...i am a big shot now and i have arrived
(http://memecrunch.com/meme/122V8/congratulations-you-did-it/image.png)
Quote from: jbeez on January 29, 2016, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 29, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 29, 2016, 03:00:55 PM
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
My sunoco says E10
I think I saw you mention you're in PA, I'm in Lower Bucks, are you close? I guess our stations use similar fuel if you are, maybe also even if we're not close
Being in PA, you are in one of the "boutique" states that features an even lower RVP than the Fed demands.
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 29, 2016, 02:51:35 PM
Quote from: bamsho on January 29, 2016, 02:39:27 PM
If so I would find away to check fuel pressure on the lpfp. The E85 could of damaged it.
Low pressure pump is a non issue
Doubt the e85 damaged it....just curious why u would think that?....the fuel filler says e0-e15 because the high pressure pump really cant support more E as far as ford thinks, with their saftey net in mind.im pretty sure all the fuel system has been upgraded to handle various fuels...fomoco posted something about that a while back
I think on a stock tune you pretty much have 2000 psi at the rail at wot all the time so everyone running a 3 bar tune on pure gas would have fuel pressure below what ford preferred....
Its not a ffv car because the pump wouldnt have the output not because the components can't handle ethanol fuels
The Ecoboost was initially designed as a FFV. On E-85 it was rated at 415/400. I suspect they axed the FFV part cause they knew the tuners would try to exploit this and they were uncomfortable because they knew they would run out of HPFP very quickly above those levels. All the hardware is Bosch that is rated for E-85. Rated for hardware robustness that is, not the insane amount of HP some of us want to make.
http://ophelia.sdsu.edu:8080/ford/01-24-2009/innovation/environmentally-friendly/gasoline/twinforce/fuel-efficiency-364p.html (http://ophelia.sdsu.edu:8080/ford/01-24-2009/innovation/environmentally-friendly/gasoline/twinforce/fuel-efficiency-364p.html)
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 29, 2016, 07:02:33 PM
Quote from: jbeez on January 29, 2016, 05:13:48 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 29, 2016, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: SHOdded on January 29, 2016, 03:00:55 PM
Are you running E0, E10, E15, or ..., AJ?
My sunoco says E10
I think I saw you mention you're in PA, I'm in Lower Bucks, are you close? I guess our stations use similar fuel if you are, maybe also even if we're not close
Being in PA, you are in one of the "boutique" states that features an even lower RVP than the Fed demands.
Hhmm i wonder how i am able to run so much boost with no knock in 12 degree temps...maybe its all the logging i do with pids...or maybe im just lucky and my car is a freak
For us E-85 guys, I believe running E20-E30 and reducing enrichment to get volume back is the way to go. All the benefits of E-85 without the extra strain that straight E-85 would cause
Ford agrees...
"Reduced enrichment. Enrichment of the fuel mixture at high-speed, high-load conditions is currently used to reduce exhaust temperature to avoid damage to engine or emissions aftertreatment components. However, enrichment also degrades thermal efficiency. Increased ethanol content enables improved efficiency by reducing or eliminating the need for fuel enrichment."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/e30-20130419.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/e30-20130419.html)
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 29, 2016, 07:37:13 PM
For us E-85 guys, I believe running E20-E30 and reducing enrichment to get volume back is the way to go. All the benefits of E-85 without the extra strain that straight E-85 would cause
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/e30-20130419.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/e30-20130419.html)
Yep A great idea if you are into mixing E
Slightly more spark advance possible for a similar boost when compared to e0 gas and at your typical 3 bar tunes which run 13-15 psi it wouldnt overly tax the fuel system.
To optimize the tune i would rescale and add some fuel to the curve to offset the higher fuel volume demand for the specific Ethanol concentration to keep fuel trims in check....or just let the 02 sensors take over and add fuel as they see fit as long as ethanol concentration isnt too high and or boost isnt too high since the 02's are limited in how much they can add and pull....i wouldnt do that but it can be done
I have plenty of logs with pid's of fuel rail pressure showing there is plenty of fuel pressure at 18 psi boost above 4k rpms.....so that tells me at 15psi with e20-30 would be no problem...but i pull all this through comprehensive datalogging so that may be a useless to some of you and i wouldnt put alot of stock in what the cars sensors are telling you
Would you possibly describe this issue as a short lived sudden miss?
This is what mine did when I had it: https://youtu.be/ucgwkBqCxkc
watch around 40 MPH...it miss fires and redlines...never did solve the issue.
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:14:38 PM
Would you possibly describe this issue as a short lived sudden miss?
This is what mine did when I had it: https://youtu.be/ucgwkBqCxkc
watch around 40 MPH...it miss fires and redlines...never did solve the issue.
Is it still happening or was it a one time deal?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 29, 2016, 09:24:55 PM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:14:38 PM
Would you possibly describe this issue as a short lived sudden miss?
This is what mine did when I had it: https://youtu.be/ucgwkBqCxkc
watch around 40 MPH...it miss fires and redlines...never did solve the issue.
Is it still happening or was it a one time deal?
Did it all the time with a tune. Fine with stock and yes plugs were re-gapped and all that. Don't have the car anymore. Unfortunately Livernois wasn't of much help in solving it.
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:26:13 PM
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 29, 2016, 09:24:55 PM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:14:38 PM
Would you possibly describe this issue as a short lived sudden miss?
This is what mine did when I had it: https://youtu.be/ucgwkBqCxkc
watch around 40 MPH...it miss fires and redlines...never did solve the issue.
Is it still happening or was it a one time deal?
Did it all the time with a tune. Fine with stock and yes plugs were re-gapped and all that. Don't have the car anymore. Unfortunately Livernois wasn't of much help in solving it.
Almost seemed like your tranny was slipping too...
Yeah and you can't hear it but it would "pop" too.
Yep, that's what mine would do. Just started doing that in the colder PA weather.
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:31:07 PM
Yeah and you can't hear it but it would "pop" too.
Jason didnt you have a Corsa exhaust back then?and the other member also,and lots of oil inside the spark plug wells does not help your issues,Btw the OP stated the pop is coming from his Corsa exhaust,find it quite odd ummm,think you need to change your plugs more often and check for any visible signs of oil inside the spark plug wells for a peace of mind,now if your car has less than 10k dont even share your opinion in the matter. Z
Quote from: ZSHO on January 29, 2016, 10:42:28 PM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:31:07 PM
Yeah and you can't hear it but it would "pop" too.
Jason didnt you have a Corsa exhaust back then?and the other member also,and lots of oil inside the spark plug wells does not help your issues,Btw the OP stated the pop is coming from his Corsa exhaust,find it quite odd ummm,think you need to change your plugs more often and check for any visible signs of oil inside the spark plug wells for a peace of mind,now if your car has less than 10k dont even share your opinion in the matter. Z
All this talk about plugs, I can't wait to see the plug service recommendations for the new Raptor and GT. I seriously doubt its every 15k.
BTW, last time I checked this is a public forum so Jason is welcome to share his opinion as is everyone else.
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on January 29, 2016, 10:53:23 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on January 29, 2016, 10:42:28 PM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 29, 2016, 09:31:07 PM
Yeah and you can't hear it but it would "pop" too.
Jason didnt you have a Corsa exhaust back then?and the other member also,and lots of oil inside the spark plug wells does not help your issues,Btw the OP stated the pop is coming from his Corsa exhaust,find it quite odd ummm,think you need to change your plugs more often and check for any visible signs of oil inside the spark plug wells for a peace of mind,now if your car has less than 10k dont even share your opinion in the matter. Z
All this talk about plugs, I can't wait to see the plug service recommendations for the new Raptor and GT. I seriously doubt its every 15k.
BTW, last time I checked this is a public forum so Jason is welcome to share his opinion as is everyone else.
I'M actually waiting for Jasons quote and you are correct FoMoCoSHO, Yes sir!!
I thought we suppose to keep it real and not outside the scope,i'm done here. Z
I was relating what I had experienced to the OP as it may be the same/similar issue which Livernois states that have never heard of...
If it is the same issue that would be incorrect as I have the emails back and forth with Livernois about the issue I was experiencing. It doesn't matter how many miles are on the car which I traded in with 31k and it still had the same issue with the Livernois tune but was fine with the stock tuning. I wasn't too concerned with the issue since I didn't drive around with my foot going to the floor all the time. I just left it alone.
The OP can watch the video and tell me if he feels it is a similar issue. Didn't matter if it was summer or winter blend fuel either.
Don't have that issue with the 16 Sport I have now which I do have a Livernois tune in.
Was that video done in the cold? How cold and how long did it warm up?
Looks like a cold transmission not allowing a shift to me...just a guess, but I've seen other videos just like this from guys who get in car after a brief warmup thinking it's ok to go WOT already.
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Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 08:48:27 AM
Was that video done in the cold? How cold and how long did it warm up?
Looks like a cold transmission not allowing a shift to me...just a guess, but I've seen other videos just like this from guys who get in car after a brief warmup thinking it's ok to go WOT already.
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The engine was was warmed up as you can see by the coolant temp gauge. That video is from 2.5 years ago. Didn't matter if it was warm or not. It did it ALL the time with the tune in it.
Quote from: jmr061 on January 30, 2016, 10:36:08 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 08:48:27 AM
Was that video done in the cold? How cold and how long did it warm up?
Looks like a cold transmission not allowing a shift to me...just a guess, but I've seen other videos just like this from guys who get in car after a brief warmup thinking it's ok to go WOT already.
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The engine was was warmed up as you can see by the coolant temp gauge. That video is from 2.5 years ago. Didn't matter if it was warm or not. It did it ALL the time with the tune in it.
Couldn't really tell, not as familiar with the 13+ gauge setup. I can let mine warm up for 15 minutes to get the coolant to operating temps...but, it takes another 20+ minutes of driving to get the trans up to about 130* in temps that are below freezing. The trans warms very slow and caution should be taken to avoid any kind of WOT pulls before it is up to a decent temp.
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Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 30, 2016, 10:36:08 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 08:48:27 AM
Was that video done in the cold? How cold and how long did it warm up?
Looks like a cold transmission not allowing a shift to me...just a guess, but I've seen other videos just like this from guys who get in car after a brief warmup thinking it's ok to go WOT already.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
The engine was was warmed up as you can see by the coolant temp gauge. That video is from 2.5 years ago. Didn't matter if it was warm or not. It did it ALL the time with the tune in it.
Couldn't really tell, not as familiar with the 13+ gauge setup. I can let mine warm up for 15 minutes to get the coolant to operating temps...but, it takes another 20+ minutes of driving to get the trans up to about 130* in temps that are below freezing. The trans warms very slow and caution should be taken to avoid any kind of WOT pulls before it is up to a decent temp.
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I havent noticed cool trans temps to be a problem...once my coolant is above 170ish i go wot when im out testing..ive never seen anything like jmr car
Shonuup does your car do that when cold also?
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 30, 2016, 12:07:34 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 11:17:08 AM
Quote from: jmr061 on January 30, 2016, 10:36:08 AM
Quote from: SHOnUup on January 30, 2016, 08:48:27 AM
Was that video done in the cold? How cold and how long did it warm up?
Looks like a cold transmission not allowing a shift to me...just a guess, but I've seen other videos just like this from guys who get in car after a brief warmup thinking it's ok to go WOT already.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
The engine was was warmed up as you can see by the coolant temp gauge. That video is from 2.5 years ago. Didn't matter if it was warm or not. It did it ALL the time with the tune in it.
Couldn't really tell, not as familiar with the 13+ gauge setup. I can let mine warm up for 15 minutes to get the coolant to operating temps...but, it takes another 20+ minutes of driving to get the trans up to about 130* in temps that are below freezing. The trans warms very slow and caution should be taken to avoid any kind of WOT pulls before it is up to a decent temp.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I havent noticed cool trans temps to be a problem...once my coolant is above 170ish i go wot when im out testing..ive never seen anything like jmr car
Shonuup does your car do that when cold also?
I never get on my car when the trans temp is under 120-130 range. So I would have no idea if my car does that. I do notice slower shifting when the trans is not up to temps in normal driving though.
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The popping happened since I bought the tuner/plugs/t-stat. The 91 tune didn't fix the issue and a factory tune doesn't show a problem.
As per temperatures, my car is indoors and is 50+ degrees most of winter.
The issue only happens under WOT. If I am slightly off WOT, I don't get popping and the car runs great.
The popping happened well before my e85 experiments. I only ran it for about a week, and never mixed more than 1-2 gallons per 16 gallons of gas; yes, if I wasn't empty, I lowered the amount of e85 to keep a .125 blend. I did, however, see better gas efficiency (3-4 MPG) when I added it in, until what I assume, the fuel trims adjusted, where I got worse.
My next step is to replace the plugs with another shop that will gap the plugs correctly. The plugs I received from Livernois were not all .030 -- some were in the .0315 range. Shipping doesn't expand the gap....
Do any unleashed customers have ANY issues with ever with popping? I may just ditch livernois and move to unleashed -- At least Torrie is willing to work with his customers on datalogging and getting to the root of issues... instead of telling them to "change the plugs they provided", "change the tune", "change the intake"...
I'm following through with their suggestions, but seriously... this is getting really old. OVER one year's worth of issues.
That is odd you mentioned having this popping issue from day one of running our tune. I've watched videos on your youtube channel that you have sent us showing the car has zero popping sounds. Then you have a video about the popping sound afterwards that says "the change the vehicle was adding 1.5 gallons of e85 before a full tank of 93" which is where my original question came from back on page 1.
Checking that plug you posted about having a hard time getting at and only tightened by hand would honestly be the very first thing to look into if it were me. ZSHO pointed that out in a previous post and had a very good point. I know with my personal vehicles (and this is just my opinion) , if I change a part and begin having an issues afterwards that could be possibly related, I would be under the hood of the car the moment I noticed any issues checking my work. Especially if I installed something hand tight that should be installed to a precise torque spec. Then maybe create a post asking for input after I had ruled out all possibilities.
I have never personally told you we are not willing to review data logs in any way. So by all means feel free to do so at your convenience and I would be glad to get them over to my head calibrator for further analysis. We also have our previous version 7 tunes that was released prior to your v8 tunes, and our latest version 9 that is a more aggressive race oriented tune as well. If interested in trying other versions of the tunes please send us a request to tuning@livernoismotorsports.com and we would be glad to help!
April 1st, 2015 - I received the "MyCal" Device and submitted a tuning request.
April 2nd 2015 - I received the tune files.
April 7th, 2015 - Installed the plugs, t-stat, 3bar, and tune. Send an email to Livernois and reported that my shifts were too hard to go to WOT.
April 22nd, 2015 - Installed the intake and ran dyno runs.
May 11th, 2015 - Had the downpipes and catback exhaust installed. Tried to get the updated tuner files, and received an error message "Updates required to load tune file".
May 12th, 2015 - Reported to Livernois that I was having sputter and a loss of power at WOT. I also sent them a video....Livernois told me to try the 91 Tune. http://youtu.be/1R9hZfDm1w4 (http://youtu.be/1R9hZfDm1w4)
May 13th, 2015 - I told Livernois that the sputter is worse with the 91 tune and I went back to the 93 octane.
May 18th, 2015 - Received another tune update from Livernois. Tried to flash and got an error message "An Error has occurred. Please write down the following error message then call tech support. 7e"
May 19th, 2015 - Received ANOTHER tune update from livernois to try to get the tuner to work properly.
May 20th, 2015 - Removed the catless downpipes and updated the tune without the O2 delete. The tune would not take in my car and after multiple attempts, I was able to get the car back to stock. Determined that the tuner was bad. Livernois sent a replacement tuner unit.
June 19th, 2015 - Reported sputtering at idle. (no response)
June 19th, 2015 - Recorded video of my exhaust popping at WOT (I didn't post the video until October (but was recorded part of Rasp from hell part 2 series) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLhUO-8NiA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQLhUO-8NiA)
June 25th, 2015 - Reported sputtering at idle again and mentioned that I could have someone data log for me.
June 25th, 2015 - Livernois responded stating exactly: "You can send us the data logs if you would like. Primarily data logging is used for wide open throttle situations so I cannot say that it would show us much."
... after 3 months of back and forth I dropped the subject..
Then in October I was getting frustrated with my sputter again and I posted a video of the sputtering. I've received about 10 different comments on a variety of my videos about similar issues...
You get my point....
And yes, I still have sputter. And yes it only happens at WOT. And yes, Livernois even said in an email "Primarily data logging is used for wide open throttle situations".
I'm sorry that you feel that I'm not following your instructions. I'm going to change the plugs and move forward from there.
Very good log of events there..
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have you gotten them to send you V7? I was having issues with V4 for the Xsport and requested V3 back, and my car is running great again.
Quote from: black99lightning on February 03, 2016, 05:10:49 PM
have you gotten them to send you V7? I was having issues with V4 for the Xsport and requested V3 back, and my car is running great again.
One thing at a time... I don't want to change too many things, as I won't be able to get to the root of my issue. I am open to V7, just want to do the plugs first.... so if the V7 doesn't work, they don't blame the plugs.
I feel your pain...usually im unsympathetic but that sounds frustrating.....out of curiosity with what are you datalogging with?...i dont understand how that works with lms and mycal
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 11:29:08 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 01:10:26 AM
I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.
I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR, Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..
Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.
AJPTURBO
Sorry for the late response on this post
This shows your inexperience with engines an fuel. E85 will most definitely cause popping with these cars (IF OUT OF FUEL). The car is on the verge of being out of fuel pressure and lean on e10 gasoline. Please don't advise people with inaccurate advice. This kind of stuff causes major problems with the fuel system and engine. I wish people would advise the correct information. The winter is here an temperatures are colder which results in substantially more fuel required (especially with E85).
You seem to know very little about datalogging, a pid is no where near the data you need to be looking at with "said" companies data log. It is for diagnostic data for repair shops. Not for development.
Can we confirm the actual fuel in the car?
We don't have people complaining with these cars about drivability issues since initial release in 2013. I think we are on to something with the fuel. We are committed to finding the problem out. If we need to we will make a trip to the customer an find out the problem. This is a car problem not a tuning problem.
We stand behind our customers
LME
Please educate the community with "good information" not opinion.
Its ok I apologize for the late reply also.
Again im not sure why i waste time explaining things to a salesman...you know enough about tuning to get into trouble and confuse others on a message board...my information about tuning comes from facts not opinion.
There is a good chance ive done more datalogging on this platform than most....some of that i wont lie may be contributed to me being a non professional...ive probably flashed my ecu with close to 1000 tune revisions and done that many datalogs as well...ive experimented with many combinations of switches and settings to achieve the desired results that i have yet to see any tuner achieve and some things that other tuners said weren't even possible...tuning companies work on multiple platforms ive been working solely on this for almost 2 years about every other night and sometimes every night for weeks at a time.
Tell me again why pids arent good for tuning? They are direct sensor readings..i get all the pertinent information i need from them..sampling rate is high and they are not derived from formulas as in some of the other logging platforms which i admit i dont know much about.such as torque and dash command...i use sct live link gen 2
At the modest boost that ive seen from your tunes the fuel system is far from maxed out, especially at rpms above 4k which is where most of the wot is done...so some extra ethanol at lms boost levels do not have the fuel system maxed out...plenty of people unleashed or lms have been running a splash or more of E from what i see in peoples sigs.
Ive ran 13-15 psi below 3k rpms fuel pressure drops but is still around 1000 psi and afr is achieving commanded...20 psi boost and fuel pressure is over 1500 psi above 4500 rpm...so again no problems there...yes higher E will lower fuel pressure but since no customer of yours runs 20 psi there should be no problem with E20.
From what ive seen of lms tunes the throttle blade never opens fully...im not sure why that would be intentional and im not sure that it is intentional but the turbo will have to work harder to achieve a certain boost pressure to overcome the obstruction that is the throttle blade and volumetric efficiency will suffer due to the wastegate being held closed longer and this will cause more back pressure which is what lowers VE and fuel demands will be increased which will also hurt fuel pressure in the rail.....which could lead you to think the fuel system is maxxed out even at lower boost levels that lms tunes will run
I regularly run 16 or more psi at temps below 20 degrees and have yet to have a problem and i have a saftey cusion im not on the ragged edge as far as im concerned....ive seen a few lms 3bar tunes logs and i see 13-15 psi so it seems odd to me why they have to resort to a 3 bar map sensor...the stock map sensor is limited to 206 kpa or 15.16 psi at 4.8 volts...so its on the edge...this is all derived from pids
Quote from: ajpturbo on February 03, 2016, 06:18:57 PM
I feel your pain...usually im unsympathetic but that sounds frustrating.....out of curiosity with what are you datalogging with?...i dont understand how that works with lms and mycal
Late model throttle said they would data log with their Diablo device. It would have cost me $$ to do it each time.
Ive always thought that if i was in the tuning business and i was unable to come to a resolution with a customer, instead of being bull headed and refusing to believe there is something wrong with the tune for a particular car just return to stock send the tuner back and refund the customer...no harm no foul.
I wouldnt want to spend my time troubleshooting for months...maybe the customer is wrong...maybe he isnt...i would say i dont want you as a customer and i dont want you to be dissatisfied so lets part ways mutually....ill take the tuner amd you take your money lol
Whats keeping you from switching at this point anyway?
Quote from: ajpturbo on February 03, 2016, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 28, 2016, 11:29:08 PM
Quote from: ajpturbo on January 27, 2016, 01:10:26 AM
I log around 30 PID's when I log. I don't see how you can do that without SCT. And to be thorough when trying to diagnose something I would log as much as possible.
I would be interested in STFT's, measured AFR, Actual throttle angle, Fuel pressure at the rail, Misfire count, Knock senor, TIP and MAP pressure, in addition to normal things like RPM, Coolant temp, gear, IAT's, vehicle speed and spark and cam timing intake actul..
Popping can't be good and means something. I doubt the higer E would be a problem but the more you have the more your stft's and ltft's would read.
AJPTURBO
Sorry for the late response on this post
This shows your inexperience with engines an fuel. E85 will most definitely cause popping with these cars (IF OUT OF FUEL). The car is on the verge of being out of fuel pressure and lean on e10 gasoline. Please don't advise people with inaccurate advice. This kind of stuff causes major problems with the fuel system and engine. I wish people would advise the correct information. The winter is here an temperatures are colder which results in substantially more fuel required (especially with E85).
You seem to know very little about datalogging, a pid is no where near the data you need to be looking at with "said" companies data log. It is for diagnostic data for repair shops. Not for development.
Can we confirm the actual fuel in the car?
We don't have people complaining with these cars about drivability issues since initial release in 2013. I think we are on to something with the fuel. We are committed to finding the problem out. If we need to we will make a trip to the customer an find out the problem. This is a car problem not a tuning problem.
We stand behind our customers
LME
Please educate the community with "good information" not opinion.
Its ok I apologize for the late reply also.
Again im not sure why i waste time explaining things to a salesman...you know enough about tuning to get into trouble and confuse others on a message board...my information about tuning comes from facts not opinion.
There is a good chance ive done more datalogging on this platform than most....some of that i wont lie may be contributed to me being a non professional...ive probably flashed my ecu with close to 1000 tune revisions and done that many datalogs as well...ive experimented with many combinations of switches and settings to achieve the desired results that i have yet to see any tuner achieve and some things that other tuners said weren't even possible...tuning companies work on multiple platforms ive been working solely on this for almost 2 years about every other night and sometimes every night for weeks at a time.
Tell me again why pids arent good for tuning? They are direct sensor readings..i get all the pertinent information i need from them..sampling rate is high and they are not derived from formulas as in some of the other logging platforms which i admit i dont know much about.such as torque and dash command...i use sct live link gen 2
At the modest boost that ive seen from your tunes the fuel system is far from maxed out, especially at rpms above 4k which is where most of the wot is done...so some extra ethanol at lms boost levels do not have the fuel system maxed out...plenty of people unleashed or lms have been running a splash or more of E from what i see in peoples sigs.
Ive ran 13-15 psi below 3k rpms fuel pressure drops but is still around 1000 psi and afr is achieving commanded...20 psi boost and fuel pressure is over 1500 psi above 4500 rpm...so again no problems there...yes higher E will lower fuel pressure but since no customer of yours runs 20 psi there should be no problem with E20.
From what ive seen of lms tunes the throttle blade never opens fully...im not sure why that would be intentional and im not sure that it is intentional but the turbo will have to work harder to achieve a certain boost pressure to overcome the obstruction that is the throttle blade and volumetric efficiency will suffer due to the wastegate being held closed longer and this will cause more back pressure which is what lowers VE and fuel demands will be increased which will also hurt fuel pressure in the rail.....which could lead you to think the fuel system is maxxed out even at lower boost levels that lms tunes will run
I regularly run 16 or more psi at temps below 20 degrees and have yet to have a problem and i have a saftey cusion im not on the ragged edge as far as im concerned....ive seen a few lms 3bar tunes logs and i see 13-15 psi so it seems odd to me why they have to resort to a 3 bar map sensor...the stock map sensor is limited to 206 kpa or 15.16 psi at 4.8 volts...so its on the edge...this is all derived from pids
Ironically, you are not explaining anything to a salesman, as this is the calibrator providing you with edification.
There are most definitely substantial differences between those PIDS and the actual addresses of where those logged parameters are housed, and that parameter set in particular. While you likely don't care about the over 4k rpm, because you will experience fewer problems. The issues will be far more noticeable under that 4k rpm band. That high pressure fuel pump spins at half of the revolutions at 3k rpm than it does at 6k. So the popping I will bet is happening while it is coming up on boost, and w/E85 this will likely happen all throughout the rpm band.
Again, your "calculations" are incorrect. To ACCURATELY calculate a kilopascal value to the corresponding value in bar, just multiply the quantity in kPa by 0.01 (the conversion factor).
Here is the formula:
Value in bar = value in kPa * 0.01
Suppose you want to convert 200 kPa into bar. In this case you will have:
Value in bar = 200 * 0.01 = 2.06BAR But, who's counting?
Since you are so confident that you are superior in everything tuning please come teach us. We have offered that opportunity hundreds of times before you, and just like our tuning track record...this track record too is SPOTLESS. I will offer a trip here to Dearborn Heights, Mi and allow us to teach you about tuning and the EcoBoost platform. We will put you in several different EcoBoost Vehicles and show you where, how, when and why the cars fun out of fueling. Since you apparently are the foremost expert on all things tuning, IF you can prove us wrong we will GLADLY cut you a check ON THE SPOT to pay for your flight, room and board.
While we are fully aware of how to keep the throttle open to avoid these things from occurring, there are many valid reasons that it intermittently shuts. It can be:
Out of fuel
Over/under boost
and several other self-preserving reasons.
We've been there, and done that...back in 2009. It is now 2016! All of your banter just goes to show that you are not a calibration writer.
Where is the moderation...
You admins of this page should be ashamed...let some chump member on here basically bash the only company left participating on here...
If I was Livernois, I'd ditch this site...they come on here and get no help from the admins to keep the idiots at bay obviously.
Ridiculous and shows the true colors of the administration and ownership of this forum to me.
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Thanks, Rich, appreciate the kind words :) Name calling, especially against fellow forum members, isn't allowed by ANYONE. When they do, they are reprimanded with what tools we have at our disposal.
We let this thread continue because we honestly thought a tete-a-tete would help enlighten interested members regarding the inner workings & controls of the EB platform. AFAIK, Livernois is saying what they can without divulging trade secrets, but if you don't ask, you won't know. Simple as that. As repeatedly stated by us before, if a vendor gets to that point, let them say so, and that'd be fine. We all understand the need for trade secrets. But at the same time, we do not support squashing of efforts to reverse engineer products. Is it OK that we try to do things to Ford products, but not ok if we try to do the very same things with aftermarket products? If anything, it speaks to Livernois' capabilities that people want to figure out what/why they are doing ...
Like you've said yourself..."you should do more moderating"...and until that happens my statement is nothing but the truth.
There's many ways of getting an answer, but the button pushing, condescending remarks, and basic disrespectful nature of some posts should be moderated if you'd like to keep a look of "even & balanced"...
But, that's obviously not a concern...
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I totally agree SHOnUup,this THREAD should be LOCKED IMHO. Z
Quote from: SHOdded on February 04, 2016, 10:21:17 AM
Thanks, Rich, appreciate the kind words :) Name calling, especially against fellow forum members, isn't allowed by ANYONE. When they do, they are reprimanded with what tools we have at our disposal.
We let this thread continue because we honestly thought a tete-a-tete would help enlighten interested members regarding the inner workings & controls of the EB platform. AFAIK, Livernois is saying what they can without divulging trade secrets, but if you don't ask, you won't know. Simple as that. As repeatedly stated by us before, if a vendor gets to that point, let them say so, and that'd be fine. We all understand the need for trade secrets. But at the same time, we do not support squashing of efforts to reverse engineer products. Is it OK that we try to do things to Ford products, but not ok if we try to do the very same things with aftermarket products? If anything, it speaks to Livernois' capabilities that people want to figure out what/why they are doing ...
You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.
There will never be such a thing as even and balanced, Rich, everyone's point of view is different. That's the way the world works, for better or worse. Do things one way, a particular group will salute you, do it another way, the same people will spit on you.
The fact remains, we are using a medium of communication that is quite anonymous by nature. If you choose to meet outside the classroom, get to know each other, more power to you, and very commendable. After all, the spirit of camaraderie is quite welcome. But most of us do not have that luxury. Maybe the same person who you consider your opponent in a forum would be a good friend in real life. But that is your choice to make. We can't make it for you. I personally give people a LOT of leeway, but that doesn't mean I don't have opinions about what you guys say & do, just like everyone else.
If you want to take me to school, shame me, if that makes you feel better, go right ahead. I've had to listen to s*** all my life because I don't care to take sides, but I will speak up when it's time. You will be the n+1 in that crowd. But I refuse to take it out on other people, especially in public.
14SHOCAR, AJ, Livernois (I don't know who's repping because there's no signature on the posts), do you want me to lock the thread as ZSHO has suggested, or do you all want to voluntarily withdraw from public discussion on this thread? Use the phone, PM, whatever. Please let me know. Thank you.
Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on February 04, 2016, 10:42:48 AM
You make some awesome points SHOd, and we appreciate you chiming in. The fact that the entire platform is out of fueling is not a trade secret for us. They are almost out of fuel on pump E10, so by adding E85 you will only meet those limitations 30-40% sooner. That is due to the delta in volume between the two fuels. We are here to help/educate the entire community, but when we are met with inaccurate arguments we cannot assist. Everything that we spread is based in over 8 years of testing and development. Do you see another way that we attempt to help the community? We are, as always, open to suggestions.
I understand you are doing what you can, saying what you can. And certainly, there will be times when facts will still not persuade people to come around. I think your offer to AJ to come out and have a discussion with you is quite fair, if not more so. As long as you take feedback, and turn that into a better product, that is all anyone can ask for of any company, and I appreciate that. Everybody wants things now, answers now, and sometimes it's just not possible or practical ...
To put the whole "popping" discussion to rest:
The following was on October 6th, 2015.
Quote from: 14SHOCAR on October 06, 2015, 10:34:58 AM...I think it was my car adjusting to the new gas. The car was 100% 93 octane when I went back to the E85 Mixture. I've been spacing out the e85 mixtures every couple of tanks so I can get a "true mix". I still had gas in the tank so it was 1.5 (E85) to 15.5 (93). It was only during WOT between 2nd and 3rd that it was starting to lose power, which I assume the "popping" is the car opening the waste gates (not misfires, though it could be). It was doing a similar thing when I had the cat-less downpipes on.
The car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture. I am almost always at WOT in my car -- it's how I drive. The car was stable until I made the new mix. The 1.0(e85) to 15.5 (e85) mixture was stable and didn't have any popping.. it was only after I added that additional half gallon that the car started to pop.
My car has now adjusted to the new mix and I don't get popping anymore with the new mixture.
It raises the question -- if you make the change, do you need to keep the mix for the LOR and curves to remain consistent?
Stated above clearly,
"...the car didn't have the WOT pop before I put in the e85 mixture...". This proves that the issues did not start until after the addition of E85. There are years of experience behind our recommendations. These vehicles are not made for alternative fuels. If we were talking about actual race applications then things like E85, auxiliary fueling systems and nitrous would be right at home. These types of mods are right at home in an application that will see limited street time, or not need to have the same level of composure or manners that we have come to expect from a modern luxury family sport sedan.
Good find.
Rich, the fact that we don't come to Livernois rescue whenever disagreement arises could also say the opposite, that we're not biased towards any vendor. Since this is a forum there's always going to be differences of opinion. Moderating is a slippery slope. It's a lose-lose for us because no matter which direction we go, someones gonna be pissed off. Everybody has their favorites and for some reason always think that makes them beyond reproach. That's not the way the real world works and quite honestly it just makes you look biased. I get it, they've gifted you with a quick car and you support them. I applaud your loyalty, but you do not make up the entire membership of EBPF.
It Looks to me that LME is more than capable of defending themselves. We moderate lightly here which is probably a good thing or you'd be banned with your personal assault on the forum and admin. Right or wrong, AJP has added data to the discussion which is more than I can say for your contributions in this thread so far. Since I don't tune cars I'll leave the discussion to the guys that do and so far on this thread that consists of AJP and whoever we are speaking with from LME.
As far as the bias issue regarding me personally? Most of my opinions went out the window the second I took this "job". I find myself not posting often because it's hard to have an opinion and be neutral at the same time. So now I just post data I find while researching the interwebz and my personal experiences I've had with the two SHO's I've owned. If LME thinks that I conduct myself with bias, they are welcome to PM me and I will relinquish my duties and go back to being a member.
I never asked for a "rescue"...
But, we'll fall back to the this is out of context so it's ok for someone to run around this site calling people stupid, their ideas dumb, and that their car looks stupid...yet, I see where some moderation could take place to keep it from getting petty....and I'm the one who needs moderation?
Data = low fuel....been stated how many times?
I don't even own a 13+....but I have a few guys testing the V9 91...V9 93...V8 93...V8 91...in different temps with Forscan watching.
It's the fuel & temps combined...just like Torrie having guys running less of a tune file when the temps dip... (like I said before)...
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I probably know Rich better than most here. He runs couple EB Facebooks pages and would of never let this thread get this far. Period. As for him defending LME, like no one else would defend there tuner, I hope they would. Do I think Rich has a point, yes I do and do I think is call out was warranted, yes I do. Manu, you know Rich too, you should of cut him some slack. Yes, I will always have Rich's back. Back to the thread, it has always been a fueling issues for day one, even the FORD fuel engineers will tell you that.
It takes a while for some people to change the way they present themselves in public. And if you have been watching, you know the rhetoric you refer to has been toned down over time, and will improve further, I am sure. This is not a magical change, it took work on all our parts to make it happen.
I made my comments to you because you could have PM'd me first with your concerns, and I could have taken action. But you chose not to. I thought we had some degree of trust, but maybe that was my error, because this is an open forum.
You could have just stated the facts you did in the last post, in support of Livernois, without all the recrimination. But you chose not to. You yourself are an intrepid data-gatherer, so there is weight to what you say.
So yeah, I responded, because what you said really hurt.
i have a 2013 non PP am running a 3bar, intake, 91 V8 tune, downpipes, and magnaflow exhaust. I do have the LME tune and do not have any of the issues that are being discussed in this thread.
I didn't see where anyone else that had a similar tune and year of car had the same issue. But from all the reading i have been doing on this out of control subject seems to be car related and not tune related.
Not trying to be a dick but its just an observation.
Thank you for your contribution Mako!
I have documented issues since 5/13/2015... this e85 thread you are referring is from October. In fact I'll take a screen shot of the email exchange I had with Livernois to solidify that this is the kind of customer service I get from them.... COMPLETE DENIAL.
Post from OCTOBER that Livernois is referring to:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5214.msg85347.html#msg85347 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,5214.msg85347.html#msg85347)
Quote from: makoskey on February 04, 2016, 11:52:06 AM
i have a 2013 non PP am running a 3bar, intake, 91 V8 tune, downpipes, and magnaflow exhaust. I do have the LME tune and do not have any of the issues that are being discussed in this thread.
I didn't see where anyone else that had a similar tune and year of car had the same issue. But from all the reading i have been doing on this out of control subject seems to be car related and not tune related.
Not trying to be a dick but its just an observation.
Not only that but there seems to be a bit of variation from car to car. The 15 holds rail pressure better than the 13 did. Why? No idea. I can say that I purposely pushed to 13 to the limit (for science, right?) and it gave out at E45ish on a zero degree day. No sputter, nothing prior to tell me I was maybe getting close, it just shut the throttle and said no more please. Took it back to E25 and carried on without issue.
Rich runs E85 on a hot tune without issue.
14 Shocar has E0 and has issues? I don't see why it is unreasonable for him to ask if there is an issue with his tune. Does that mean the tune is the problem? Nope. Does it mean he drew the rail pressure short stick? Quite possibly.
I just know I'm going to regret this... :) I have done logging with my LMS 93 V8 and V9 on my 2013+. I'm not going to get in the debate about PIDs being a good way to tune the car but they do at least provide some data about what is going on. Using FORSCAN I saw fuel pressures falling below 900 PSI and the car doesn't like it. It did maintain A/F but my suspicion is the car doesn't like the drop in FRP and starts limiting things...now mind you this was a calculated blend of E16-E18. If I get rid of the E85 mix the situation dramatically improves - although I don't know if it goes awayentirely as I haven't tested as I don't like flooring my car when it's -14 outside or ridiculously snowy - all of which has been happening here.
I don't think comparing boost levels and fueling directly is all that helpful because it depends on how much timing you are running as well does it not? - you can run 25 PSI and 10 degrees of timing or 12 PSI and 23 degrees (as a probably not so accurate example) and make the same power because cylinder pressures are similar. You need to look at multiple variables to determine if the car is out of fuel or not...
Certainly something could be going on with the OP's car that is causing this issue to manifest itself (bad HPFP, Fuel control module, E85 mixing) when tuned and not stock. I would just get my money back and move on but I suspect you will find yourself in the same situation with another tuner - or you will be tuning around the issue.
As I requested before, if there is anything be gained from further public discussion, we will let this thread stay. Otherwise, it will be locked. Any further threads opened by the OP with regards to this topic will be subject to locking as well at our discretion.
14SHOCAR, are you willing to continue this with LME offline? Please let me know within the hour.
For Everyone's viewing pleasure... my exchange with Livernois....
(http://www.brentblawat.com/LMT/Livernois.png)
WHY I have to PROVE to them that I have been having this problem from the beginning is ABSOLUTELY INSANE.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on February 04, 2016, 12:01:21 PM
I'm not going to get in the debate about PIDs being a good way to tune the car but they do at least provide some data about what is going on.
Absolutely. If you think of the internals of the PCM as a black box, the PIDs can be construed to be outputs from that black box. So obviously there IS merit to Livernois' assertions. The question is whether SCT is tuning purely based on PIDs or are they taking the PID inputs from the tuner and making the changes INSIDE the black box. Is changing PID behavior adequate, or do we need to change the internals of the black box for safe & reliable tuning?
Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on February 04, 2016, 11:59:28 AM
Does that mean the tune is the problem? Nope. Does it mean he drew the rail pressure short stick? Quite possibly.
Very true. The ends of the fuel rails are also known to get gunked up from time to time, so another possibility, esp if adding ethanol has a mild cleaning action.
Quote from: ecoboostsho on February 04, 2016, 12:01:21 PM
I would just get my money back and move on but I suspect you will find yourself in the same situation with another tuner - or you will be tuning around the issue.
If Livernois is willing to give me my money back, I'd be happy to move on my merry way.
Per Livernois:
"Brenton,
We are sorry that you are unhappy with your most recent tuning endeavor. Honestly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the tunes nor the tuner. All of the issues that you have been bringing up are a direct result of running alternative fueling and various other mods that you were unhappy with. Your opinion is that the tune ultimately is to blame for all of that now, and you are entitled to having that opinion. However, we have literally hundreds upon hundreds of tuned SHO owners out there that can adhere to out regimen, and do not have the same issue(s). We attempt to help where we can and never shy away from credible critiques. You have had our tuning for over a year, that is a while without issue. If it was within a couple months we may consider this as an option. We wish you well going forward, and hopefully we will earn your business again.
Respectfully,
Livernois Motorsports"
Brenton:
I firmly believe that you need to take the car in to a good mechanic (yes, they are hard to find). Usually a shop that has experienced personnel that don't just rely on computers to tell them what to do. ElvenSHO can testify to that :) Go to a Lincoln shop, usually they have more experience with EB engines.
A loose spark plug can cause "balloon pop" type sounds also:
http://www.jeepz.com/forum/cj-yj-tj-jk/35652-engine-noise-after-replacing-spark-plugs.html (http://www.jeepz.com/forum/cj-yj-tj-jk/35652-engine-noise-after-replacing-spark-plugs.html)
Spark plugs are torqued to a precise spec so that a) they don't move, and b) the position in the cylinder is known and static. It is possible that incorrect positioning within the cylinder is causing improper flame fronts that are more evident when enough fuel is added.
But it could be a leaky fuel injector as well. In short, get the mechanicals checked out thoroughly. You just might save your car.