Today I was able to put my 2011 NON-PP SHO on the Dyno today. I've got some quick notes/points I want everyone to understand before continuing my experience. (All mods are in my sig and up to date)
1. I was on a DynoTech by Dynamics AWD Dyno at Turn-In Concepts in Cincinnati, OH (www.turninconcepts.com (http://www.turninconcepts.com)). They specialize in Subaru primarily.
2. I used a freshly cleaned and oiled AirAid intake and the MDesign intake (which is about 2-3 weeks old?)
3. Each run started in 4th gear, and then around 2000-2300 RPM the car was W.O.T. The only reason was because if you hammer it in 4th going not too fast... the car down shifts into 3rd. But from the looks of, the graph is fine. The Hood was fully shut also!!!!
4. Each run was data logged (using torries SHO data log config file) so I have some numbers to back up my findings on temperatures and such. I am MORE than willing to provide anyone with the logs I have to see the differences.
5. When this was published, I had not spoken to anyone, not MDesign, not Torrie, no one. I want all of this to be my own words before anyone has any opinions or thoughts.
6. I will admit, my heart is broken by the dyno of course... but this testing was to help out MDesigns and to prove the difference between his set-up and the AirAid setup. (if i were to add 15% of my max run, it puts me at 340hp, that makes me happy inside... lol)
SOOOOOOO to the meat and potatoes of everything!!!!!!!
MDesign Intake
I started out with the MDesign CAI on first. I had 3 runs. (Torque was not displayed, but you can see the very small changes on the graph)
Numbers as follows:
-294.6hp (Run Not Graphed)
-293.6hp (Torque around 342)
-298.3hp (Torque around 348)
Tuner's thoughts – Any way to possibly make the filter larger, could help with more flow. (Not too sure if this is possible, what calculations were based off of, ect. I'm just throwing this out there for everyone.)
The Dyno graphs I was provided for the MDesign were the 2 most uniform graphs with no hiccups or anything. I assure you though; they all looked almost exactly alike.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/peppelepugh/d415fc91-9ab8-4b92-96ee-a095aad50d2f.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/peppelepugh/media/d415fc91-9ab8-4b92-96ee-a095aad50d2f.jpg.html)
AirAid Intake
Next up was the AirAid Intake. I swapped the Airaid intake in and did 4 pulls with it, 3 of which you will see Dyno graphs for.
The first run was fairly cool temperature wise. So the last 3 is what matter most in my eyes (Real world scenario). Numbers as follows:
-292.8hp (Torque around 348)
-292.2hp (Torque around 352)
-301.8hp (Torque around 350)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/peppelepugh/a04e38cf-66bd-4493-9e9f-3591bf7a1b0a.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/peppelepugh/media/a04e38cf-66bd-4493-9e9f-3591bf7a1b0a.jpg.html)
Now seeing how the 2 intakes match up, I received a graph of the highest pull from each intake. Note, 3hp difference... in my eyes they're equal
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/peppelepugh/19e48f35-08eb-4648-b76f-5b8ec3f371dc.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/peppelepugh/media/19e48f35-08eb-4648-b76f-5b8ec3f371dc.jpg.html)
TEMPERATURES
But what I feel that is most important would be the temperatures I saw. If you check out the OPEN ZIPPED FOLDER TO VIEW MY LOGS AND THE GRAPHS FOR THIS SECTION You can see that in intake temps were virtually 100% consistent throughout the entire run on the MDesign vs the AirAid... But.... Look at the "Charged Air Temps" The charged air reaches 55+/- *C (or 131* F) on both intakes! (note, for AirAid, view pulls 2, 3, and 4 due to the first pull, the engine was quite cold compared to the other 3) You can see how the airaid (NOT MODIFIED, INSTALLED PER INSTRUCTIONS PROVIDED WITH THE KIT) soaks heat like no one's business where the MDesign does exactly what it is supposed to do.
I'm also beginning to think that the Intake Temperatures were higher on the MDesign intake due to the location of the sensor vs AirAid sensor location. The MDesign location is much closer to the engine where all the heat comes from.
Conclusion
I see no HUGE gain on the MDesign intake vs AirAid intake other than looks. Airflow seems to be better than the AirAid or the stock intake based on how air physically flows. Me personally... If you have not purchased an intake, just save the $$. Although, while getting an oil change recently, the tech saw my intake and took like a quadruple look then looked and me funny. Needless to say, he probably fell in love with the design of the MDesign intake.
I will add though. For customer service I will say "MDesign > AirAid" all day when it comes to support.
This is great! Thank you for going through all this, especially going through it non-biased and having data to back up everything!
Thanks for the dynos. While performance may not have been significant, a slight increase is still good. Also, the aesthetics and space saving features of the MDesign is worth mentioning as well.
I'm planning on doing some mods soon. So thanks for sharing your findings.
Comparative data on MD Run 3 and Airaid Run 4:
MDESIGN AIRAID
IAT - Drops Until 5900 rpm 2100 rpm
IAT - Rises Above Ambient Never 4100 rpm
IAT - MAX (C) Idle (-7.6) 6300 rpm (+17.6)
CAT - Drops Until 2400 rpm 3200 rpm
CAT - Rises Above Ambient 3000 rpm 3900 rpm
CAT - MAX (C) 6200 rpm/(+30.4) 6200 rpm/(+27.8 )
at cooldown at cooldown
The MDesign definitely pulls off the consistent IAT temperatures. Seems like CAC temps are not so much under the intake's control (which makes sense since the rest of the path is unaltered).
Was the Airaid open to the engine bay (this is my presumption per heatsoak)? Was the engine cover left on?
Side notes:
KR activity max between 40 and 50 mph, slowly attenuating down to 0 by 120/130 (MDesign/Airaid) mph.
Max coolant temp 210F (during cooldown)
Quote from: SHOdded on February 03, 2015, 06:31:46 PM
Comparative data on MD Run 3 and Airaid Run 4:
MDESIGN AIRAID
IAT - Drops Until 5900 rpm 2100 rpm
IAT - Rises Above Ambient Never 4100 rpm
IAT - MAX (C) Idle (-7.6) 6300 rpm (+17.6)
CAT - Drops Until 2400 rpm 3200 rpm
CAT - Rises Above Ambient 3000 rpm 3900 rpm
CAT - MAX (C) 6200 rpm/(+30.4) 6200 rpm/(+27.8 )
at cooldown at cooldown
The MDesign definitely pulls off the consistent IAT temperatures. Seems like CAC temps are not so much under the intake's control (which makes sense since the rest of the path is unaltered).
Was the Airaid open to the engine bay (this is my presumption per heatsoak)? Was the engine cover left on?
Side notes:
KR activity max between 40 and 50 mph, slowly attenuating down to 0 by 120/130 (MDesign/Airaid) mph.
Max coolant temp 210F (during cooldown)
All runs had the hood closed. Just as if it was normal driving conditions, I'll post a pic up of the setup. I had the hood popped this run for the MDesign before the 3 official test to see if there was any change in power... there was none. Thats only time the hood was "open" for that matter one EITHER INTAKE RUNS
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/peppelepugh/0202151506a.jpg) (http://s37.photobucket.com/user/peppelepugh/media/0202151506a.jpg.html)
This just goes on to show that the volume of air in a box matters. Meaning that larger the volume, the bigger the box/storage area around the filter, the better for the engine. The key concept is how to keep that air colder for better performance. The gains were minimal and probably not noticeable in the cabin, but add up eventually.
Great info!
Thanks for doing this.
I thought these cars dynoed at about 285-290 stock though?
Were you running tune at this time?
Rich
Quote from: SHOnUup on February 03, 2015, 07:51:36 PM
Great info!
Thanks for doing this.
I thought these cars dynoed at about 285-290 stock though?
Were you running tune at this time?
Rich
I was running the tune I got from torrie. Pretty much as much power, but easy on the shifting since its daily driver.
Yeah, as i stated before. This dyno is THE lowest reading thing i've ever seen. I talked to their resident Ecoboost guy there who owns a Flex. He was first telling me how he had a guy with the full hennessey kit show up and dyno at like 285-290. Then he had their shop tuner play around the the SCT X4 and his car and tune it a bit. The flex was able to put down around 290 (he said it was only partly tuned, only increased boost and something else).
The guy i was working with asked me the HP coming out of the crank and i told him "eh, 410? 420?" he looked at me like i was high, then i told him "well, 365 out of the crank factory plus a nice tune and some other parts (plugs, 3-bar, CAI) puts me at... well yeah, 420 at least out of the crank". I mean correct me if i'm wrong by any means guys... but i feel i was right. I told them i expect to see 340s+/- and that was NOT the case as we can see. But the only reason I went to this place was to really just settle the debate of AirAid vs MDesign. I bet if i do enough research on this dyno, i'll find some info on % difference compared to a DynoJet or some other brand. I can tell you right now though.... NO WAY i'm losing 120HP from motor to the wheels...
But all in all, i'm not taking those nu
Quote from: J-Will on February 03, 2015, 06:11:01 PM
Thanks for the dynos. While performance may not have been significant, a slight increase is still good. Also, the aesthetics and space saving features of the MDesign is worth mentioning as well.
I share those sentiments.
Quote from: peppelepugh on February 03, 2015, 08:15:34 PM
Quote from: SHOnUup on February 03, 2015, 07:51:36 PM
Great info!
Thanks for doing this.
I thought these cars dynoed at about 285-290 stock though?
Were you running tune at this time?
Rich
I was running the tune I got from torrie. Pretty much as much power, but easy on the shifting since its daily driver.
Yeah, as i stated before. This dyno is THE lowest reading thing i've ever seen. I talked to their resident Ecoboost guy there who owns a Flex. He was first telling me how he had a guy with the full hennessey kit show up and dyno at like 285-290. Then he had their shop tuner play around the the SCT X4 and his car and tune it a bit. The flex was able to put down around 290 (he said it was only partly tuned, only increased boost and something else).
The guy i was working with asked me the HP coming out of the crank and i told him "eh, 410? 420?" he looked at me like i was high, then i told him "well, 365 out of the crank factory plus a nice tune and some other parts (plugs, 3-bar, CAI) puts me at... well yeah, 420 at least out of the crank". I mean correct me if i'm wrong by any means guys... but i feel i was right. I told them i expect to see 340s+/- and that was NOT the case as we can see. But the only reason I went to this place was to really just settle the debate of AirAid vs MDesign. I bet if i do enough research on this dyno, i'll find some info on % difference compared to a DynoJet or some other brand. I can tell you right now though.... NO WAY i'm losing 120HP from motor to the wheels...
But all in all, i'm not taking those nu
Drive train loss on these cars is allegedly about 27%
Dynojets seem to give the best and most accurate numbers.
The "heartbreaker" dyno. Usually good for 5-10% lower than the dynojet. Thought I read dynojet in your original post.
Really was hoping for a little better result so I could warrant the purchase of ANOTHER CAI before other mods. Definitely still on the want list. Just didn't get moved up that list.
Rich
Awesome job doing an intake compare in the most scientific way you could!!!
I looked at the data logs and pulled a single point off of each graph. This point was around 5060 rpm's where the Turbo's are working the hardest which requires the most out of the intake. Here is my findings...
You can see that the MDesign does an outstanding job at controlling the intake air temp but the temperature coming out of the Charge Air Cooler was actually hotter than the AirRaid. The Knock was slightly less on the MDesign as a whole, but the last two runs on the AirRaid was basically the same. The real story for me is the Waste Gate Duty Cycles.... IDENTICAL! This is a measure of how much of the turbo capacity (in a round about way.... Its actually the duty cycle of the boost control solenoid. Zero = Waste Gate open, 100%= Waste Gate closed) is need to hit the Boost Set point. The gain seen with the cooler temps of the MDesign intake are negated by what I can only say is a slight flow restriction (based on the fact that the inlet temps are cooler but the outlet temps are higher) resulting in the turbo's having to spin at the exact same rate between intakes.
Great Study... Very impressed!
John
Quote from: SHOdded on February 03, 2015, 08:44:49 PM
Dynojets seem to give the best and most accurate numbers.
Dyno's are only a useful tool to compare on the same day same dyno. They should be used exactly how it was used today to evaluate differences between two controlled changes. I think this dyno is very accurate and repeatable... Just the numbers are not high as others. Don't confuse high numbers with accuracy, sometimes its the opposite of what someone thinks. Hit the track, those numbers will tell you how she's running.
To be honest, dyno is not best way to test an air intake, the track is. MPH will show you true HP gains/losses.
I'm not discounting your findings, just know that I saw a loss of .2 and 2MPH with the airaid at the track compared to stock intake, I switched back and forth twice in one night and replicated my testing on both switches.
So what are OEMs using to test their vehicles' outputs? Surely they are either using computer modeling or dyno runs most of the time, and track only a relatively small % of the time? $ & sense and all that.
Has anyone performed a stock intake vs MDesign test?
Quote from: SHOdded on February 03, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
So what are OEMs using to test their vehicles' outputs? Surely they are either using computer modeling or dyno runs most of the time, and track only a relatively small % of the time? $ & sense and all that.
Everything is engine rated, not WHP rated. :)
True, but don't they need to know drivetrain losses, even if they don't release the numbers officially?
Interesting results. Yeah, numbers are close enough to say they are both equal. Someone posted volume of air, makes me wondering if the extra intake tube I installed helps. I do notice more pull at the track about 1/8 miles, not sure how it will work being dynoed, unless they have a real big barn fan.
Quote from: SHOdded on February 04, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
True, but don't they need to know drivetrain losses, even if they don't release the numbers officially?
No, people like you and I come up with guestimated WHP. The manufacturers use engine dynos.
Gotcha, thanks!
Thought I'd chime in about something that was brought up now that the discussion has been started.
First off I'd like to thank the community for all the help thus far in testing out the intakes, without a great community most of this would not be possible.
Now to to the data...BigMoneyCloser had done the initial dyno using a Mustang dyno and back to back there was a significant gain with the MDesign over the Air Raid (10.6whp & 16wtq) though as we can see in this test the MDesign and Air Raid were pretty close. The only difference between the mods of both peppelepugh and BigMoneyCloser are the addition of downpipes and catback exhaust.
The intake is a breather mod, along with anything that involves changing the intake/exhaust systems. As such, the combination of other intake/exhaust modifications can have a affect on how well the added performance parts compliment each other as a whole which is what had occurred in BigMoneyCloser's testing. With the downpipes and catback installed, being the only difference as both vehicles have 3Bar tune and intake, the same tests showed a gain when swapping the Air Raid for the MDesign. As suggested above, the best method of testing the intakes for "quickness" or speed would be at the track which I plan to do when the weather/tracks open up here in Michigan.
We're all looking for ceteris paribus data :D
Quote from: MDesign on February 04, 2015, 05:17:20 PM
Thought I'd chime in about something that was brought up now that the discussion has been started.
First off I'd like to thank the community for all the help thus far in testing out the intakes, without a great community most of this would not be possible.
Now to to the data...BigMoneyCloser had done the initial dyno using a Mustang dyno and back to back there was a significant gain with the MDesign over the Air Raid (10.6whp & 16wtq) though as we can see in this test the MDesign and Air Raid were pretty close. The only difference between the mods of both peppelepugh and BigMoneyCloser are the addition of downpipes and catback exhaust.
The intake is a breather mod, along with anything that involves changing the intake/exhaust systems. As such, the combination of other intake/exhaust modifications can have a affect on how well the added performance parts compliment each other as a whole which is what had occurred in BigMoneyCloser's testing. With the downpipes and catback installed, being the only difference as both vehicles have 3Bar tune and intake, the same tests showed a gain when swapping the Air Raid for the MDesign. As suggested above, the best method of testing the intakes for "quickness" or speed would be at the track which I plan to do when the weather/tracks open up here in Michigan.
So wouldn't a higher demanding car show the differences between the intakes if there were any?
I don't understand your rational.
Again OP did an outstanding job collecting the data from the runs to see what the car was doing and what effects the intakes made on the incoming air into the throttle body and all the processes prior.
Quote from: 91hybrid on February 04, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: MDesign on February 04, 2015, 05:17:20 PM
Thought I'd chime in about something that was brought up now that the discussion has been started.
First off I'd like to thank the community for all the help thus far in testing out the intakes, without a great community most of this would not be possible.
Now to to the data...BigMoneyCloser had done the initial dyno using a Mustang dyno and back to back there was a significant gain with the MDesign over the Air Raid (10.6whp & 16wtq) though as we can see in this test the MDesign and Air Raid were pretty close. The only difference between the mods of both peppelepugh and BigMoneyCloser are the addition of downpipes and catback exhaust.
The intake is a breather mod, along with anything that involves changing the intake/exhaust systems. As such, the combination of other intake/exhaust modifications can have a affect on how well the added performance parts compliment each other as a whole which is what had occurred in BigMoneyCloser's testing. With the downpipes and catback installed, being the only difference as both vehicles have 3Bar tune and intake, the same tests showed a gain when swapping the Air Raid for the MDesign. As suggested above, the best method of testing the intakes for "quickness" or speed would be at the track which I plan to do when the weather/tracks open up here in Michigan.
So wouldn't a higher demanding car show the differences between the intakes if there were any?
I don't understand your rational.
Again OP did an outstanding job collecting the data from the runs to see what the car was doing and what effects the intakes made on the incoming air into the throttle body and all the processes prior.
The 'higher demanding' car did show larger discrepancy in favor of MDesign.
While only a small gain here, the larger gains seen on the previous dyno results could be explained by the symbiotic relationship the other (exhaust) mods have.
Got it. Big's xsport has the same setup as OP's plus Catted down pipes and exhaust.had it flipped. Carry on.
Definitely a great read. I'm still running the stock air box with a drop in K&N filter. More than likely I'll make my move to the MDesign....THAT DESIGN DOE!!!
after watching mustang cobra n gt guys drop all kinds of crazy $$ on the latest and greatest cai i just stuck with the basic ebay in take for my mustang gt 4.6 2v bak in the day (mostly for looks ) and never had any issues...once any engine gets heat soaked if ur not blowing 45 deg air down it's throat ur basically pissing up a rope...