Ecoboost Performance Forum

Take a few moments and vote on the poll please. I don't spend a ton of time on the forum any more due to day jobs and handling EPP at night along with personal (wife) commitments when not working.
It seems like the continue to have issues with these cars/tunes/products etc.
Let us know so we can handle appropriately.
Mike

Here are couple posts about the issues LMS has and is having. Before you vote, please take a look so you can make an informative vote.

When things started going south with LMS and the 4th gen Community.  Trans issues and V11 tune issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/)

More V11 issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/)

BDP1151 post about LMS and how he was treated after a failure.  Very detailed.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/)

BPD1151's post on his new build...a known associate of LMS tried to start crap on the last page.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953 (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953)

After this LMS ghosted the community for a the better part of a year.

They returned with this.......

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-t460-gains-big-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-t460-gains-big-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

Then this was brought to the light.....

https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html)

Don't forget all the extra work the mods have had to do here over the years, eliminating double posts and/or relocating posts that they know full well (per the rules) belong in their own dedicated area.

As if consistently challenging the rules.

Not to mention them posting in other dedicated vendor areas, all to try and hawk sales. Which is disrespectful to those vendors alike.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote from: SM105K on April 29, 2020, 02:51:44 PM
Here are couple posts about the issues LMS has and is having. Before you vote, please take a look so you can make an informative vote.

When things started going south with LMS and the 4th gen Community.  Trans issues and V11 tune issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/)

More V11 issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/)

BDP1151 post about LMS and how he was treated after a failure.  Very detailed.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/)

BPD1151's post on his new build...a known associate of LMS tried to start crap on the last page.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953 (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953)

After this LMS ghosted the community for a the better part of a year.

They returned with this.......

https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

Then this was brought to the light.....

https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html)

The last link you posted does not work,followed by an error! Im not affiliated or part of the Shoforum!  :( Thanks. Z

https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

Quote from: ZSHO on April 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM

Quote from: SM105K on April 29, 2020, 02:51:44 PM
Here are couple posts about the issues LMS has and is having. Before you vote, please take a look so you can make an informative vote.

When things started going south with LMS and the 4th gen Community.  Trans issues and V11 tune issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-3-bar-v11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/)

More V11 issues.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-vs-gearhead-canned-tunes-comparison.138578/)

BDP1151 post about LMS and how he was treated after a failure.  Very detailed.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/a-sad-sad-day-in-the-history-of-my-sho.139372/)

BPD1151's post on his new build...a known associate of LMS tried to start crap on the last page.

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953 (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/bpd1151s-2010-sho-rebuild-thread.139715/page-18#post-1532953)

After this LMS ghosted the community for a the better part of a year.

They returned with this.......

https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

Then this was brought to the light.....

https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html (https://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,10397.0.html)

The last link you posted does not work,followed by an error! Im not affiliated or part of the Shoforum!  :( Thanks. Z

https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?thre...-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-t460-gains-big-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/ (https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/lms-t460-gains-big-power-while-resolving-other-concerns.141171/)

This is the correct link.  It seems that LMS is more vocal over on the other forum.  Most of time here, they just remain silent and refuse to answer most questions directed to them. 

For one, I am split on this. For my car (2011) I have had no issues with the tune or the car. What I have NOT been pleased with always is there customer service. BUT, reading the complaints about them I can vote to boot but from personal experience I abstain!

A week ago I would have voted no. Today the best I can do is not vote.

I started out with LMS with my 2011 over 5 years ago. No issues in 3.5 years. Sold it and bought a 2015, like the fact that all I had to do was send them my tuner and pay for shipping back and my 2015 was now tuned for free. Ran fine for the first few weeks until I put the downpipes on, then I ran into the same issues most had. Would not shift into 2nd gear when accelerating from WOT. Just like the others, i was told nobody else was having the issue. That story has been played out many times on this forum and others, so no need to talk about the countless emails sent to them. Always me reminding them that it still didn't work, never them saying hey just wanted to make sure your tune is working. They always SAY the right thing and make you think they really want to help you.

A year later I called them to get a quote for meth, as I was kicking around the idea of going that route. Spent a good 15 minutes on the phone with the guy telling him my current setup and what my future plans were. He took my phone number and said he would get back to me with a quote. Never heard back again. Took some of the money I had set aside and bought an intercooler instead.

I'm stupidly trusting, so last week when all the back and forth was going on over at the other forum, I felt a little bad for LMS. I decided I would try their V17 tune and compare it to my current tune and give unbiased results.  Contacted them weds or thursday and told the I would like the updated V17 tune. Contacted them again Monday just giving them a gentle reminder since I was told I would have the tune the previous week, he ended up calling me and telling me that they were building my tune and that my E30 tune was probably the best one that they had.

So when I wake up tomorrow it will be Thursday and despite promises to deliver it's just the same story. I've dealt with multiple different people there and the outcome always seems to be the same.

I'm contemplating catless downpipes and even tho they are 100 dollars cheaper than the other vendor I was contemplating, I will spend the extra money and buy them elsewhere if I do go that route.  At some point you just stop listening to words and judge people off their actions alone. Talk is easy. Anyone can tell you what you want to hear.

Ridered...how can you not vote? It seems like time and time again they continue  to let you down? Would you want another potential customer to get the runaround as well?

Quote from: SM105K on April 30, 2020, 02:25:38 AM
Ridered...how can you not vote? It seems like time and time again they continue  to let you down? Would you want another potential customer to get the runaround as well?

I'm real big on not burning bridges whether it be personally or professionally. I like to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible and I think there are certainly worse tuners out there than livernois. Maybe if I had never received a working tune from them I would have a different opinion, but I got 3 good years out of their tune.

So what my opinion is worth from a non-customer this is what I've always associated LMS as when it came to their services from other people's experiences.. This is what I think matters:

1) Lack of communication
2) Lack of results
3) Lack of customer service when it came to issues
4) Lack of caring when it came to organization of where they posted (BPD mentioned and very good point)
5) Shotty work ethic when customer brings car to them

What doesn't matter to my opinions above, but still want to say:
1) Overpriced and underperforms
2) Screwed over more than 1 of their built motor buyers
3) Hardware unusable by anybody but them

There is plenty more to it, but honestly I don't think LMS has brought anything good to the community in a long time. Absolutely not since I joined in 2017. I really wish with all the opportunities to come "clean" and communicate they would had changed their ways, but it seems time and time again there is always another person upset with their business. So, for what it's worth, I don't think they need to be a part of a community where they have nothing beneficial to offer, but this is my opinion based solely on other people's issues with LMS.

Quote from: ridered74 on April 30, 2020, 08:36:07 AM

Quote from: SM105K on April 30, 2020, 02:25:38 AM
Ridered...how can you not vote? It seems like time and time again they continue  to let you down? Would you want another potential customer to get the runaround as well?

I'm real big on not burning bridges whether it be personally or professionally. I like to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible and I think there are certainly worse tuners out there than livernois. Maybe if I had never received a working tune from them I would have a different opinion, but I got 3 good years out of their tune.

I understand that.  The problem that I have is their marketing is so good, it literally dupes people into believing they are a great company.  Time and time again they have proven to be the opposite. If people don't speak out about their experience (either good or bad) we are doing a dis-service to others.  Seems LMS of the past, is not LMS of today and people should know.

That being said, I don't like burning bridges either, however sometimes you have to burn a bridge down so bad...it creates the light to see a new path.   

Well articulated.

How they entered the platform 10 years ago, is a far cry from what they've delved into.

As a smaller, niche market type of platform, it is important to highlight those vendors that are, and have proven beneficial to the platform, and conversely, disparage those that are detrimental.

Those that know, know better, and do steer clear. Newer owners however may not be aware of all of the unscrupulous practices and repeated problems that occur, bringing the platform down, resulting in poor experiences and discouraging further investment and lasting bonds/ownership.

That said, not everyone is saveable. If newbies choose to use them and fall prey to the marketing/media hype, then so be it.

However, "older" (term used loosely) owners absolutely have a responsibility to educate and inform as needed. There should be no benefit of inclusion in the community as a result.

I correlate it with the banned Sierra Sierra India vendor/followers.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I don't think voting is burning a bridge, not that it should matter anyway.  LMS won't hesitate to burn a bridge with even their most dedicated and loyal customers, the ones have have taken it a notch above with both their vehicles and their wallets.  I balk at the idea "voting" is anywhere near the levels that they have shown to stoop to....lowest of lows.  So let's nip that little notion in the butt.

Although if that's how you feel...try not to.  Seriously.

My vote is in.  And my 2010 operated ok in terms of not breaking....yeah the transmission felt like it would fall out in the 1,2 shift but I also thought that "must be" normal.  I really didn't like learning...later on...that I purchased what I to believe upgraded spark plugs only to find out I bent over backwards for stock sp534 plugs.  I was actually taken back that they said Motorcraft on them as well.  It really seemed like they must have developed their own spark plugs.  My Alky meth kit said Alky Control on it...I was looking forward to Livernois on the pump sleeve....so being naive, I quickly began to realize they didn't develop Jack $hit.  All of this to become faster/better overall performance.  I wanted to be like BPD's car.  My dream was a Livernois built motor.  Then I screwed up...I made a huge mistake.  I installed a boost guage.  Wow!  10 psi?  Really boys!  My other dream, to be a their facility getting a custom dyno tune!  Man I'll have to make a special trip to Michigan from VT to get "dialed" in.  Oh wait...then I watched a video of a Ford Engineer talking about the 3.5l Ecoboost engine and how 12psi was stock boost.  Wait...so I'm doing all this and I'm at less than stock boost?  That's not my goal.  If I wanted my car stock I would leave it stock period.  They tell me must be your car...check x, y and z.  Check x, y and z.  Something must be wrong with "you" bc our tunes see 13,14 psi.  Check everything again.  It's correct.  Drive to Michigan, get on the dyno, pay for hotels....all for what?  For $550 I had an SCT X4 and custom tuning via datalogging from AJP Turbo.  RIP LMS!

I'll add my 2 cents as well. Back when I had my SHO 5-6 years ago, I went with LMS. I didn't want to have to deal with datalogging, just wanted a plug n play kind of thing. I can't remember exactly what revision I had been on but it got to the point where the transmission was shifting terribly in 1-2, I thought I was to the point of the transmission was about to go and ended up trading it in (not just because of the transmission issue, but that played a big factor in my decision) knowing now that it was more than likely the tune is frustrating. I talked with them over the harshness and was basically told that was just how it was. (I also had downpipes, which makes even more sense now...)
Glad I did NOT go with them when I bought my Flex

Where's the voting poll or is it just saying yay or nay here?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Quote from: BlueSHO on April 30, 2020, 11:54:06 AM
Where's the voting poll or is it just saying yay or nay here?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It is at the top of this post.

Things have changed quite a bit on this site since I joined up. This site is the a big part of the reason I went with LMS. Now everyone is on a different bandwagon... So who knows... Check back in a year or two and see who's hated then. Who's been "crossed" and why everyone one else should hate them now too.. In my experience was Livernois perfect no. But they did what I asked usually within 3 days. Faster than some tuners... Some tuners disappear for quite a while. And some don't like to make changes for certain conditions... Some tuners don't sell parts some don't do installs. And my engine didn't blow while tuned by LMS... So I just can't jump on this hater bandwagon. I could try to lay blame as well... But we all play the game and know the inherent risk. Sometimes we win and break records... Sometime we lose and break motors and hearts... Its a part of the modding game we play. My 2¢. Idc what gets done on this site. But at this point they're worse that ***? What I would like to see is stats for all vendors/tuners. A review system of sorts. Actual verified data and numbers.

I hadn't even heard of some these other newer tuners till recently. Maybe they are better... Maybe not. Idk. I would believe Livernois has tuned way more 3.5s than all other vendors combined on this forum... Is that being considered? Idk. It seems to be the same group circle of people complaining here about LV... But at the same time some are rarely satisfied with one tuner over another and use multiple caught with greener grass on the other side syndrome.. Always looking for preferred quirks to be satisfied. Myself included.

It just 100% proves you have to evolve with the market.  Just because you were good for years, doesn't mean that you are still good now.  As a dedicated tuning company...I am sorry, it SHOULD NOT take you three days to respond.  PERIOD. 

There are other tuners out there. They have proven that they can make more power safely.  That means a lot to this community.  Matt from Gearhead has gone above and beyond what LMS has ever done.  He developed, procured, and tested items/upgrades he brought to the market for our platform.  He developed tunes LMS could only hypothesize.  I know for a fact he even reached across the isle and tried to help LMS with some issues. 

Another tuner (AJPTurbo) doesn't tune full time.  It is a side gig.  Most people know this, yet want his services still.  It is common for a small delay in response.  If you know that going in, then it more acceptable.  I am one that wanted his services.  My SHO for what it is, flat out does work.  I could not be happier for what it is.

However, I will not let blind allegiance keep my eyes turned from the truth.  I pride my integrity and try my best to be transparent in all things.  If I see another tuner (including my tuner) doing questionable things, I will call them out and I will ask the questions.  It's all about checks and balances for me.

Gearhead is like the current LMS of a couple years ago. I'm hearing good things about them now and a lot of ranting and raving which is great. I may give them a try in the near future. I hear it from not just from the 3.5 community similar to LMS at the time. I don't have any blind allegiance to them. I have a positive experience with them and that's what I'll share. My transparency if you will. There was issues there was resolutions there was progress... This was just my experience. I know it's not everybody's. If my experience was all bad I'd be here saying so. But that's not the case and I can't say that. I was very happy with my meth e85 tune. The shifting I requested was amazing especially during light to light daily driving. The low end pull was instant. Running consistent 12.2s - 12.3s full weight down hear in hot ass Texas. So it is what it is. Plus they have continued to invest time and energy into the platform offering the new revisions as well as full 85 with no meth options. I just don't see why they should be banned when they do have more satified customers than not... Not just some high profile members of this forum.

Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 30, 2020, 02:22:06 PM
Gearhead is like the current LMS of a couple years ago. I'm hearing good things about them now and a lot of ranting and raving which is great. I may give them a try in the near future. I hear it from not just from the 3.5 community similar to LMS at the time. I don't have any blind allegiance to them. I have a positive experience with them and that's what I'll share. My transparency if you will. There was issues there was resolutions there was progress... This was just my experience. I know it's not everybody's. If my experience was all bad I'd be here saying so. But that's not the case and I can't say that. I was very happy with my meth e85 tune. The shifting I requested was amazing especially during light to light daily driving. The low end pull was instant. Running consistent 12.2s - 12.3s full weight down hear in hot ass Texas. So it is what it is. Plus they have continued to invest time and energy into the platform offering the new revisions as well as full 85 with no meth options. I just don't see why they should be banned when they do have more satified customers than not... Not just some high profile members of this forum.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else but there are multiple owners in multiple threads here and on other forums/social media with horror stories or just plain bad business. I was tuned by LMS and thought everything was great. Dealt with the 1-2 shift issues thinking that's just a quirk of tubing this platform because that's what LMS tells customers. Little hesitation here and their same thing. Turns out it's not a quick of the platform it's a quick in their tuning along with the low fuel pressure issues that took a while to come out as you can't datalog with their proprietary hardware. After seeing multiple people with the same problems I decided to try another tuner and before switching tunes logged the LMS tune which had under 800psi at the rail. Those little hesitations were the throttle closing trying to save itself from the tune. While that's bad the real issue is how they handled it. Telling everyone everything it fine and just buy a $1600 fuel pump. Add in the smiley happy sales posts in contrast to the accusatory rants when anyone posts about there issue and the couple of high profile failures why do you think there are some vocal people trying to warn others.

Well, I've always heard people are more likely to complain instead of praise. Basically you are more motivated to make a bad review or post than a good one.

If we were able to survey all SHOs tuned by LMS, what would the ratio of satisfied customers be?

Yea... There is no ignorance here. I've been on this board for over 2 years now and read and heard the good and the bad... My experience was good. That's it. If you don't like that I and others have had a good overall experience than that's too bad for you. Unfortunately these boards can become very fanboyish. SSM vs Dicunzolo this vendor vs that vendor... LMS - S-I *** insert future tuner here*** hate bandwagon etc... That being said I don't claim LMS is for everyone... It all depends on you and your goals. I went to another tuner looking for more because I reached my limit with LMSs canned tunes. Well I got more in the way of a rod through the block. I DO NOT BLAME THAT TUNER and I'm not going to go on a personal vendetta to destroy their reputation. Quite honestly once I get my car situation settled. If everything goes well I will probably resume where we left off... Anyway I'm not going to go back and forth with the dead set haters I understand their view and its fair enough. I have my own view as everyone else does... At this point if you're going to ban LMS than you might as well ban anyone that has anything positive to say about them or their experience with them or even so much as mentions them.

Alrightey then.  Not seeing any further progress in this topic towards clarifying why one should vote one way or the other.  Let's focus instead on voting and racking up those numbers!

This is as simple as the SSM and ADM Engine mounts.

We all have our opinions. We are all big boys. We can spend our money where we want. The more vendors. The better it is for the Platform.

I think each esteemed member is entitled to their own opinion without compromise!
Please be well and stay safe everyone. Z

All things being equal, maybe this poll should include year of car in order to validate. Granted I have 4 other cars I drive so the SHO is not a daily driver. But I have NOT had any issues with the tune. I do occassionally get the HARD 1-2 shift and as others have stated was told (not sure I believed) that it was normal. Even the dealer made comments to that affect.

Maybe banning is too harsh a term. Maybe censoring them is better? And can be honed in their comments on 2013+ cars vs pre 2012 cars. Just a wild thought. They have contributed and pioneered a lot for the community, maybe profit got in the way of their progress. And if word gets out that one of  the biggest ecoboost forums is censoring or banning them, their ways could change. Up until now its just been one complaint at a time. THis board represents ???? members of various vehicles that could certainly impact their bottom line!

Lastly, after being here maybe 5-7 years  now, I would more than likely NOT got with LMS if I was new here. But when I came they were big/bad/best s***! Thats not the case anymore!

Just my 2 cents

Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on April 30, 2020, 12:05:38 PM
What I would like to see is stats for all vendors/tuners. A review system of sorts. Actual verified data and numbers.

Agreed, and not just one trip down a dragstrip. That's what I like about dragy, I can load a tune go make 10-15 pulls and get an idea of about how that tune is going to run. Load a different tune and go make another 10-15 pulls.

As for datalog stats, I'd love to see WOT #'s for various vendors. PSI, timing and especially fuel pressure. My gearhead tune stays at 2900+ psi until I let off the gas.

The one thing I was impressed with about the LMS E30 tune was that the boost was pretty steady at 15 PSI and only about 15-20 hundredths slower than my gearhead tune, while the wastegate % was about 10% lower across the run than what i normally see.

Some people long term would prefer that, as it could lead to your turbos lasting longer. Me? Gimme those extra two tenths, I want to be faster even if it means I replace my turbos a little sooner.

LMS did send me the 93 V17 tune today so I will soon be running the rest of the E30 out of my car and doing some test tuns for data on the updated LMS tune.

Seems like emotions are running a little hot.  I know when someone has been burned emotion is definitely going to be present, and that's understandable.  For them.  However, I've seen at least few who've just "heard" negative things so they parrot it.  I'm not sure why those in the EcoBoost community feel so tribal about shops/vendors/tuners.  Why it must be an all or nothing approach?  Like we see this with Torrie and his SCT tunes vs Livernois.  We see it with SSM and Dicunzolo.  It just goes on and on.  Why? 

I guarantee there's plenty of folks that have LMS parts/tunes and don't have problems.  I'm one of them.  I personally have their tuner and thermostat and it's never let me down in 4 years.  Got my tunes the same day I requested it.  So no, I haven't ever experienced any issues.  Does that mean I need to go to them for everything, crap all over other shops, and be a fanboy?  Not at all.  I didn't like what they offered in terms of Intake so I went someplace else.  I didn't like their offerings for exhaust or downpipes so I had custom ones made.  Just buy what you want from where you want.  Vote with your dollars.  That's my two cents. 

I'm sorry to say this is one of the primary reasons I don't frequent the forums much: just too much negativity and bad vibes.  Which is a shame because I've learned so much here from helpful, experienced members and it's been a massive help.  But the reason I don't really use social media is kind of the same reason that I don't use the forums much.

Quote from: SHONuf on April 30, 2020, 11:06:22 PM
Seems like emotions are running a little hot.  I know when someone has been burned emotion is definitely going to be present, and that's understandable.  For them.  However, I've seen at least few who've just "heard" negative things so they parrot it.  I'm not sure why those in the EcoBoost community feel so tribal about shops/vendors/tuners.  Why it must be an all or nothing approach?  Like we see this with Torrie and his SCT tunes vs Livernois.  We see it with SSM and Dicunzolo.  It just goes on and on.  Why? 

I guarantee there's plenty of folks that have LMS parts/tunes and don't have problems.  I'm one of them.  I personally have their tuner and thermostat and it's never let me down in 4 years.  Got my tunes the same day I requested it.  So no, I haven't ever experienced any issues.  Does that mean I need to go to them for everything, crap all over other shops, and be a fanboy?  Not at all.  I didn't like what they offered in terms of Intake so I went someplace else.  I didn't like their offerings for exhaust or downpipes so I had custom ones made.  Just buy what you want from where you want.  Vote with your dollars.  That's my two cents. 

I'm sorry to say this is one of the primary reasons I don't frequent the forums much: just too much negativity and bad vibes.  Which is a shame because I've learned so much here from helpful, experienced members and it's been a massive help.  But the reason I don't really use social media is kind of the same reason that I don't use the forums much.

My qualms with LMS comes from my 3 biggest competitors for the platform record. Every single one of them has been burned by LMS.

BPD was burned by LMS on his big build and I don't need to get into that
Ryan Spencer's LMS built motor lasted all of 6 days before he had to replace it with another one
802SHO was repetitively told that it was his car that had issues and not their tuning considering his was only running 10 psi.

These are all friends of mine and I would consider them "elite members" in terms of pushing the platform. Nobody else is really close other than some nonparticipating members that have ran an 11.6 or something along those lines. 3 out of 3 of them all have been burned by LMS. I am not trying to critique you but, in my opinion, we need to stop letting others get burned. The whole "let your dollars do the speaking" thing is nonsense. Just because you haven't been hit by a car doesn't mean you that you know it's a bad idea to be. We learn from other people's experiences and let that form/shape our entire lives.

If I were in the place where I were looking for a built motor and I didn't know about the issues my 3 good friends have had I would probably buy it, but knowing the issues that so many have had I know to steer far away. It's a matter of morals at this point. Could you own and operate a business and feel okay at the end of the day knowing you took customers for a ride. There is plenty more to LMS issues than I have stated here in. Just a little bit more of my 2 cents.

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

Please be respectful but mindful towards one's or others opinions! Don't want this Topic to steer off course.. TIA. Z

Once again with the first hand logic. Like I said I don't have to be hit by a car to know it's bad. I'm sure all of us have looked up a restaurant to eat at and wouldn't touch the 2/5 stars place if we knew there was a 4/5 or better spot that gave the same type of food. The entire world lives off experiences of others.

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM
I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

I have modded this forum since near day one and in NO way is this true.......

https://www.jukeforums.com (https://www.jukeforums.com)

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for no reason... to people on the multiple sides of this discussion.

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:38:20 PM
We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:39:25 PM

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:38:20 PM
We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly dude, I didn't even read all the comments, I started but then they just turned into finger pointing and pitting SHO owner against SHO owner.

This community is too small for this crap...

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

Unless something changed during my extended absence, EBPF takes no money from vendors.

It is a delicate balance protecting the membership from predatory vendors and vendors from members that place false blame without due diligence. Needlessly chasing away vendors when the vendor pool is admittedly shallow due to our platform is also a consideration.

It is my rule to always be a tiny bit biased towards the membership since, IMHO, the vendors hold the power.

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:46:37 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

Unless something changed during my extended absence, EBPF takes no money from vendors.

It is a delicate balance protecting the membership from predatory vendors and vendors from members that place false blame without due diligence. Needlessly chasing away vendors when the vendor pool is admittedly shallow due to our platform is also a consideration.

It is my rule to always be a tiny bit biased towards the membership since, IMHO, the vendors hold the power.

I was surprised to see you posting again, hope all is well!

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:42:57 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:39:25 PM

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:38:20 PM
We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly dude, I didn't even read all the comments, I started but then they just turned into finger pointing and pitting SHO owner against SHO owner.

This community is too small for this crap...

Read the comments. Things are civil, however there are opposing views. Blindly voting without doing any research or having any information past and present from both sides is borderline wreckless and irresponsible.

You are correct, our community is too small. Too small for any company to keep dropping the ball time and time again.

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:48:00 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:46:37 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:16:38 PM

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:02:16 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 12:13:05 PM

Quote from: SHONuf on May 01, 2020, 09:57:14 AM

This is kind of what I mean right here.  Your* biggest qualm is not your own experience but rather the experience of others. Three people you respect, admire, and compete with so instead of basing your opinion of an entity based off your own interactions, you're forming an opinion vicariously through their experiences.  That's not to say we don't do this when asking a friend about a restaurant or reading a review on Amazon for a tool we're looking at.  But, when it comes to shops I personally prefer first hand accounts.

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "we need to stop letting others get burned." We all collectively have zero control over what others do with their cash.  Removing them from the forums will certainly not put them out of business or prevent people from doing business with them.

Regardless that's about all I've got to say about this.  I'm clocking out of this discussion.  Do as you please.

So if your friend got burned by a company, would you endorse that company to another individual?

This question is completely relevant to this post.  Most tuners are endorsed by word of mouth esp by posts on forums like this.  Limiting the discussion and not letting other express themselves is censorship, which most of the time is protecting the company screwing over the customer.

I have seen this time and time again on other Forums.  Company X pays a monthly fee to Forum X.   Company X starts doing shady things and screws customers.  Forum X members start posting negatively about company.  Company X puts pressure on Forum X.  Forum X does not want to lose revenue.  Forum X covers for Company X with either censorship/suppression, ultimately leading to customers getting screwed because they don't know any better.  Happens on every forum.       

Does that allegation include EBPF?

Not that I have seen because I am pretty sure Mike posted the poll. I don't know if there is a vendor fee for this forum. In forums that do charge a fee, the vendor usually gets preferred treatment. Obviously because of revenue. However, LMS has gotten some special treatment in the past when things starting getting spicy before...

This is probably why there is almost a 2 to 1 ratio to remove LMS.

Unless something changed during my extended absence, EBPF takes no money from vendors.

It is a delicate balance protecting the membership from predatory vendors and vendors from members that place false blame without due diligence. Needlessly chasing away vendors when the vendor pool is admittedly shallow due to our platform is also a consideration.

It is my rule to always be a tiny bit biased towards the membership since, IMHO, the vendors hold the power.

I was surprised to see you posting again, hope all is well!

Considering everything that happened the last 6 years, life is pretty good now!

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:49:35 PM

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:42:57 PM

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 09:39:25 PM

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 01, 2020, 09:38:20 PM
We should shut down comments. This is gonna cause a lot of butt hurt... for now reason...

Leave the poll, shutdown the comments.

This comment is exactly what I am talking about.

Honestly dude, I didn't even read all the comments, I started but then they just turned into finger pointing and pitting SHO owner against SHO owner.

This community is too small for this crap...

Read the comments. Things are civil, however there are opposing views. Blindly voting without doing any research or having any information past and present from both sides is borderline wreckless and irresponsible.

You are correct, our community is too small. Too small for any company to keep dropping the ball time and time again.

Hmm...

The post referencing all the issues with links is good. The problems comes in when people are posting opinions vs actual experience. "I heard it from a friend who...." which is something that can't be verified.

The approach here should be more on a factual basis with supported links to issues highlighting the problems. Preferably links to issues where LMS is directly responding.

That would provide a good starting point for uninformed members to develop their own opinions. However, I would venture to say, if you don't have enough information, you shouldn't be voting.

EDIT: I will say a year ago if you googled "SHO Tuning" LMS would have been the top 5 links.... now it's below unleashed, 5 star, gearhead, an stage 3... regardless of what you all decide to do, people are clearly "voting" with their wallets.

And they are voting with their wallets because posts in forums are exposing the good and the bad in all turning aspects.

The links I posted are filled with actual LMS tune owners and their experiences.

Quote from: SM105K on May 01, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
And they are voting with their wallets because posts in forums are exposing the good and the bad in all turning aspects.

The links I posted are filled with actual LMS tune owners and their experiences.

Exactly, that's the kinda of information we need. Plus, it keeps members from getting all bent out of shape.

This guy gets it.

I've been on this forum for several years. I'm not a customer of LMS (there's a reason for that) but I've paid close attention to them. I couldn't believe the way they stabbed a vital client like BPD in the back. That alone sank their ship, in my eyes. Perhaps they'd learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them. They should be cut off like the gangrenous appendage they've become.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Wholeheartedly agreed there linemonkey.

Thank you for your words & input.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

The community is not small, but the active portion is tiny, miniscule even, LOL.

Since our first call to concentrate on voting did not work, consider any comments made after this post to be forfeit.

PLEASE, if you have not voted, do so!  TIA.

With all due respect Shodded, once again your post is exactly what I am talking about.

Mike's last statement "Let us know" while keeping the comments open should tell  everyone everything they need to know if comments are being held within forum standards and rules.

Also I would look to see if there are any "newly registered members" voting. Those votes could manipulate either side of the vote, esp if they are backed from someone that has something to lose.

We can agree to disagree, once again, and move on.  People are going to believe what they believe, and do what they do.  But when personal attacks enter conversations, that will put an end to those conversations.  Nothing additional that is useful is being added here at this point

Quote from: SHOdded on May 02, 2020, 09:57:25 AM
We can agree to disagree, once again, and move on.  People are going to believe what they believe, and do what they do.  But when personal attacks enter conversations, that will put an end to those conversations.  Nothing additional that is useful is being added here at this point

As a moderator on other forums, if the forum owner posts asking a question, it isn't our job to dictate what goes on in that thread as moderators regardless what we think. The only person who should be giving directions and or disabling comments should be Mike himself.

This again goes directly to my comments about censorship and bias.

Enough is enough.  You already know our position. You can choose to accept it ... or not.

Quote from: SHOdded on May 02, 2020, 10:12:49 AM
Enough is enough.  You already know our position. You can choose to accept it ... or not.

Sorry Shodded, your comments are coming off bias. There have been no personal attacks or community rules broken. I respectfully request you moderator properly and if the situations dictates remove those posts that violate community rules.

What Easton said sounds fair.  Removing posts that violate rules only.  Just my perspective.

Censoring reasonable discussion has always gone well in society.

Posts were retained to show the acrimony which led to us asking for restraint.  Sorry you do not see it that way.

Well, with that note I'm talking a hiatus from this forum for a couple months ✌️

Lmao... you all know the moderators here do this on their own dime right?

I would say since I have joined in 2015 the moderators have done a very good job trying to keep the forums from turning into a Facebook/social media melting pot of crap.

Forums have always been a place to go get information and share ideas respectfully. Talk about new things and help move the platform forward.

There are multiple types of censorship... one type is having a moderator that removed valid comments, another is members who refuse to let others share their own opinions without jumping all over them.

I personally think everyone needs to take a step back, understand that it is OK to have people who LIKE the same vendor you DONT LIKE.  It is OK to have different opinions respectfully. There have been multiple attempts in this post alone by senior members to keep the discussion respectful.

Quote from: SHOdded on May 02, 2020, 10:40:45 AM
Posts were retained to show the acrimony which led to us asking for restraint.  Sorry you do not see it that way.

I see a bias Shodded. I know for a fact EBPF moderators have been removed from their duties because of "BIAS". Please refrain from committing the same actions.

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 02, 2020, 10:50:52 AM
Lmao... you all know the moderators here do this on their own dime right?

I would say since I have joined in 2015 the moderators have done a very good job trying to keep the forums from turning into a Facebook/social media melting pot of crap.

Forums have always been a place to go get information and share ideas respectfully. Talk about new things and help move the platform forward.

There are multiple types of censorship... one type is having a moderator that removed valid comments, another is members who refuse to let others share their own opinions without jumping all over them.

I personally think everyone needs to take a step back, understand that it is OK to have people who LIKE the same vendor you DONT LIKE.  It is OK to have different opinions respectfully. There have been multiple attempts in this post alone by senior members to keep the discussion respectful.

I am a mod on other forums as well. I am well aware of how things operate.

Time to go put on my Reef's and go work on the SHO and ST.

There were a couple cautionary notes issued Prior and many still disregard to follow simple basic protocol!
I wholeheartedly agree with SHOdded decision respectively! Z

I've unlocked this thread, don't lock it please. Don't moderate it either, these items need to be discussed in public.

Quote from: EcoPowerParts on May 02, 2020, 03:48:08 PM
I've unlocked this thread, don't lock it please. Don't moderate it either, these items need to be discussed in public.

Thank you Mike for taking up the reigns on this. Unlocking it, and allowing for unfettered discussion accordingly.

Truly appreciated.

Let the ensuing discusson(s) continue unabated.

Cheers

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Quote from: EcoPowerParts on May 02, 2020, 03:48:08 PM
I've unlocked this thread, don't lock it please. Don't moderate it either, these items need to be discussed in public.

Thank you Mike for unlocking this thread. Can you please check to see if the voting has been tampered with by "new" members votes in either direction?

All members who voted have been a member for awhile.
Mike

Quote from: EcoPowerParts on May 02, 2020, 03:48:08 PM
I've unlocked this thread, don't lock it please. Don't moderate it either, these items need to be discussed in public.

No problem.  Your call.

So whats gonna happen. 1 vote majority and they get booted ?

Seriously ?

Quote from: Macgyver on May 02, 2020, 06:47:42 PM
So whats gonna happen. 1 vote majority and they get booted ?

Seriously ?

How many times do you have to drop the ball before someone takes the ball and sends you home?

Here is my opinion.. I am assisting a former Livernois customer... who paid a boat load for the top of the line package that doesn't involve a motor... and since he has received the car back, it has not run correctly..

The list of CRAP that seems to be poorly put together just never ends.. we are chasing a fueling issue which at this point based on the logs I am suspecting the check valve on the alky kit maybe malfunctioning. I asked where the gain controller was so he can turn the pump off.. he said he doesn't know and that LMS said he should never have to touch it as its a progressive controller and doesn't need adjusting...

He paid $99 for their spark plugs as part of the package, and then another $150 to have them installed... they were gapped at .040!

His alky kit came with two red LEDS... so he has no clue if the pump is actually developing pressure.. and THEY CHARGED HIM SEPARATELY FOR THE LEDS.. THE KIT COMES WITH THEM!

The list continues to go on...

I know he doesn't want to get on the forums.. as I wish he would tell his side of the story so it was first hand..   

To the point, its time to move on from them. If you are getting anything beyond a base tune from LMS then they are screwing people left and right. I myself used them off and on for a few years with good success for the most part.. until I wanted turbo's.. then they tried to sell me "Race Oil" at 7 quarts and break in oil at 7 quarts because "The ATP's will burn through several quarts on the dyno.." as Andy told me. I was also told they wouldn't install my EPP down pipes.. they went so far as to say they don't remove the stock downpipes when replacing the turbos... and the list goes on and on and on..

I have attached a copy of the quote I received for the turbo install.... they wouldnt provide line item price.. as their software apparently wouldnt allow it.

Their business practices are garbage.. and they continue to prey on unsuspecting customers. This predatory business model should not be allowed to continue within these forums. And to the fact that forums have a vendor section for them would suggest the forums also promote them.

I am getting tired of trying to help customers who have gotten screwed by them..

Think about the new owners joining us. When I bought my car I was so proud of it and excited to mod it. Hell, I still am! This forum and the members here were incredibly helpful and knowledgeable. I'm a family man and couldn't afford to blow money on mods that I didn't need or didn't work. I'd hate to see a new owner come in and lose interest or worse yet, their excitement, because they get burned by shady vendors with potentially dangerous products

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 02, 2020, 09:55:47 PM
Here is my opinion.. I am assisting a former Livernois customer... who paid a boat load for the top of the line package that doesn't involve a motor... and since he has received the car back, it has not run correctly..

The list of CRAP that seems to be poorly put together just never ends.. we are chasing a fueling issue which at this point based on the logs I am suspecting the check valve on the alky kit maybe malfunctioning. I asked where the gain controller was so he can turn the pump off.. he said he doesn't know and that LMS said he should never have to touch it as its a progressive controller and doesn't need adjusting...

He paid $99 for their spark plugs as part of the package, and then another $150 to have them installed... they were gapped at .040!

His alky kit came with two red LEDS... so he has no clue if the pump is actually developing pressure.. and THEY CHARGED HIM SEPARATELY FOR THE LEDS.. THE KIT COMES WITH THEM!

The list continues to go on...

I know he doesn't want to get on the forums.. as I wish he would tell his side of the story so it was first hand..   

To the point, its time to move on from them. If you are getting anything beyond a base tune from LMS then they are screwing people let and right. I myself used them off and on for a few years with good success for the most part.. until I wanted turbo's.. then they tried to sell me "Race Oil" at 7 quarts and break in oil at 7 quarts because "The ATP's will burn through several quarts on the dyno.." as Andy told me. I was also told they wouldn't install my EPP down pipes.. they went so far as to say they don't remove the stock downpipes when replacing the turbos... and the list goes on and on and on..

I have attached a copy of the quote I received for the turbo install.... they wouldnt provide line item price.. as their software apparently wouldnt allow it.

Their business practices are garbage.. and they continue to prey on unsuspecting customers. This predatory business model should not be allowed to continue within these forums. And to the fact that forums have a vendor section for them would suggest the forums also promote them.

I am getting tired of trying to help customers who have gotten screwed by them..

Holy Hell!  That estimate is straight wack!  I thought I saved myself $600 bucks by taking my turbos out AND manifolds ........but wow actually I saved nearly $3,000 lmfao!  Please stop giving these crooks your money people!

Quote from: 802SHO on May 02, 2020, 10:21:57 PM

Quote from: StealBlueSHO on May 02, 2020, 09:55:47 PM
Here is my opinion.. I am assisting a former Livernois customer... who paid a boat load for the top of the line package that doesn't involve a motor... and since he has received the car back, it has not run correctly..

The list of CRAP that seems to be poorly put together just never ends.. we are chasing a fueling issue which at this point based on the logs I am suspecting the check valve on the alky kit maybe malfunctioning. I asked where the gain controller was so he can turn the pump off.. he said he doesn't know and that LMS said he should never have to touch it as its a progressive controller and doesn't need adjusting...

He paid $99 for their spark plugs as part of the package, and then another $150 to have them installed... they were gapped at .040!

His alky kit came with two red LEDS... so he has no clue if the pump is actually developing pressure.. and THEY CHARGED HIM SEPARATELY FOR THE LEDS.. THE KIT COMES WITH THEM!

The list continues to go on...

I know he doesn't want to get on the forums.. as I wish he would tell his side of the story so it was first hand..   

To the point, its time to move on from them. If you are getting anything beyond a base tune from LMS then they are screwing people let and right. I myself used them off and on for a few years with good success for the most part.. until I wanted turbo's.. then they tried to sell me "Race Oil" at 7 quarts and break in oil at 7 quarts because "The ATP's will burn through several quarts on the dyno.." as Andy told me. I was also told they wouldn't install my EPP down pipes.. they went so far as to say they don't remove the stock downpipes when replacing the turbos... and the list goes on and on and on..

I have attached a copy of the quote I received for the turbo install.... they wouldnt provide line item price.. as their software apparently wouldnt allow it.

Their business practices are garbage.. and they continue to prey on unsuspecting customers. This predatory business model should not be allowed to continue within these forums. And to the fact that forums have a vendor section for them would suggest the forums also promote them.

I am getting tired of trying to help customers who have gotten screwed by them..

Holy Hell!  That estimate is straight wack!  I thought I saved myself $600 bucks by taking my turbos out AND manifolds ........but wow actually I saved nearly $3,000 lmfao!  Please stop giving these crooks your money people!

Yes. It's crazy... I have another quote with an additional $1,750 in transport charges for them to come get the car...

I have additional data as well... I could consolidate all my datalogs for their tunes... 2010 and 2016 MY... but to be honest it would be subjective. The only one that is of condemning value is the V11 which has been beat to death....

You like the 5.0 oil filter? Truck plugs? Lol.. it's crap...

"Racing oil" is a good one too.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Just for comparison here is the quote from National Speed for GH turbos installed,
Downpipes installed, and 3 dyno pulls. I did pay an extra $75 for a PTU drain/fill at the time too. This shop is highly rated and if you want pictures let me know... they work on and tune cars that LMS would blow a street urchin to get their hands on...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200503/04a7eb15b4176f5a2a9519276bc1368c.plist)

If I had to vote, I would say to keep them, at least for more options.  I've never had a problem with their service.  They've actually customized my fan settings when i wasn't happy with them.   Yes, there was some issues with the v10 and older tunes but the v17 seems to be an big improvement. 

When I've called, they've always answered and I could talk to Anthony himself.

I would say if you datalog go with someone else, but if you you just want a good/ great tune without datalogging go with LMS as with my experience they are pretty good.

LMS has always sent me adjustment tunes within 1 business day.  Granted I just have bolt ons.  They have worked with me on things like the soft shift and I think I was the first to have them adjust the fan settings for 170 thermostat.

I'm not saying they are the best for the track, but they've worked with me for so called canned tunes.

The V17 seems to be a huge improvement with downshifting and just steady acceleration.  Yes, 1-2 shift sometimes at WOT seems like the transmission Is shuttering or slipping but is still accelerates like crazy and I don't hit the ref limiter.

My mods are:

Iridium spark plugs one step colder st 0.028
MSD ignition coils on plug
170 degree Thermostat
Drop In K&N air filter
3 Bar MAP sensor
PPE Cat downpipes
Corsa Catback Exhaust
LMS V17


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm going to go ahead and close the thread and put my thoughts here.
You can read through my various interactions with LMS over the years including the great E85 debates back in 2013 when I started using it and they claimed that ethanol wasn't a viable option. I also called them on having a single 91 octane tune across the country, 91 octane tunes for AZ cars won't work the same as a 91 octane tune from the southeast due to temps and the crap California gas we have here, yes 91 octane from California is WAY worse than 91 octane from Texas.
My company literally started by working with PPE to make a downpipe that wasn't super expensive (at the time) and that could actually pass all emissions readiness checks. The competition caused LMS to immediately drop their prices to match the new lows, over the years the prices have slowly gone up. I don't really compete with them, I sell my charge pipes (which I've heard repeatedly that they have said not to purchase) and I guess now with my cold air it competes with their Airaid rebranded intake.
Being 100% transparent they have sent me a tuner back in the day and I used it on one of the wife's trucks for a bit. Wasn't an amazing tune but it was a off the shelf box tune.
The concerning part is that they have so many issues and such high prices with people who bring their cars to them but if people are willing to pay that and aren't able to find other resources then so be it.
All that being said with BPD Mike's new position on LMS, I'm curious if he's willing to talk about the scenario where he was a moderator on this forum with Dave (rembmered it) and them working behind the scenes specifically to promote LMS to new members via PMs back in the day and how that all played out with them, that is the main reason why I really don't like LMS and causes me concern. Dave literally went to work for them later as a sales guy....
These items are out in the open for people to see and refer to, the thread will be locked but not deleted and can be referred to by various people as a resource for why not to use them.


Remember this was never a tuner comparison thread for performance, this was a why is there issues with big builds and be aware to our members thread.

I'll leave this open for comments for the next 48 hours then I'll close it permanently

Mike

So what happens now?  Even V17 from LMS is being data logged and there are still shifting problems.

How much time has this "state of the art tuning company" with insight to Ford directly had to fix this? How many threads have been made about shifting issues directly for how many years?

I have never had these issues with any of my tunes, with or without traction on. Even on a base tune.

Does LMS actually care? Are they ignorant? Are they just willingly being stupid? I don't understand.

In my opinion our transmission thermostat opens way too late and doesn't flow enough causing high trans temps and possibly pressure. I know in my case removing the thermostat resolved my harsh shifting 100%. 99 degrees already down here. I loved my shifts on my tune. Best yet.
Also clearing transmission adaptive tables helps. After a while the adaptives start "fighting" the custom tune shifts...

Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 06, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
In my opinion our transmission thermostat opens way too late and doesn't flow enough causing high trans temps and possibly pressure. I know in my case removing the thermostat resolved my harsh shifting 100%. 99 degrees already down here. I loved my shifts on my tune. Best yet.
Also clearing transmission adaptive tables helps. After a while the adaptives start "fighting" the custom tune shifts...

Can you elaborate?  I have never had shifting issues with my PP.  However, it does run very warm here in AZ.  At 75 mph in the summer I see a sustained 218 degrees, which I really do not like.   

Quote from: StinkinLinkin13 on May 06, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
In my opinion our transmission thermostat opens way too late and doesn't flow enough causing high trans temps and possibly pressure. I know in my case removing the thermostat resolved my harsh shifting 100%. 99 degrees already down here. I loved my shifts on my tune. Best yet.
Also clearing transmission adaptive tables helps. After a while the adaptives start "fighting" the custom tune shifts...

To keep this thread on point, would you mind making a new post about what you did?  TIA.

Quote from: bpd1151 on April 30, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
Well articulated.

How they entered the platform 10 years ago, is a far cry from what they've delved into.

As a smaller, niche market type of platform, it is important to highlight those vendors that are, and have proven beneficial to the platform, and conversely, disparage those thatare detrimental.

Those that know, know better, and do steer clear. Newer owners however may not be aware of all of the unscrupulous practices and repeated problems that occur, bringing the platform down, resulting in poor experiences and discouraging further investment and lasting bonds/ownership.

That said, not everyone is saveable. If newbies choose to use them and fall prey to the marketing/media hype, then so be it.

However, "older" (term used loosely) owners absolutely have a responsibility to educate and inform as needed. There should be no benefit of inclusio n in the community as a result.

I correlate it with the banned Sierra Sierra India vendor/followers.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I really wish there had been a bigger warning, realistically something pinned to thefront pages of this and sho forum, I would have gone a diff route when I bought my sho in June last year now I'm stuck with them because my performance budget is spent.


I'm hoping they come thru with what's left to do = direct port meth with remote tuning
Hope fully they read this, and maybe can get started building backthe rep.

Just to update my status from my previous post above.  I did go another route instead of sticking with LMS for years.  I will admit that I may have been wrong and gave them too much credit.  Especially the last few years compared to early on. 

I went with Gearhead, also adding the intercooler and the the XDI evo HPFP. 

I'm not here to rip on anyone, I just wanted to clarify my status since my last post above and that now I couldn't be happier.  Currently, the Best shifting I've ever had.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro