Ecoboost Performance Forum

Ecoboost Performance => Troubleshooting, Maintenance, TSB Articles => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: DSMtuned on April 13, 2017, 10:51:50 PM

Title: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 13, 2017, 10:51:50 PM
My mods are in my signature.

My truck has boost flutter in high gears at low RPM.  The boost will spike and then fall by about 5psi.  It will do this rapidly until I downshift or apply more throttle.

This effect was present when stock, but only when really lugging the truck when locked in a high gear.  With a tune it happens more frequently and without full throttle.  I just installed a Full Race catted downpipe and now the effect is very pronounced. 

It seems like the wastegate has a weak spring and is easily blown open with aggressive boost curves and higher than stock boost.  Also the decreased backpressure of the new downpipe didn't help things.  Sound about right, or is there a different explanation?

What about a fix?

Thanks for your brainstorming.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 14, 2017, 01:11:18 AM
What elevation do you live at?
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 04:39:08 AM
I noticed you have a 2012 F150!!  Did you ever have your intercooler checked out in form of an updated TSB followed by a reflash of the PCM.?  Z
I would also check your boost solenoid and waste-gate hoses to make sure the hoses are not loose or split.
Any DTC codes set ? How many miles on her?
DSMtuned due setup an intro by following the below link and Welcome,thanks. Z

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html)
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: SHOdded on April 14, 2017, 07:39:25 AM
Some clues may lie in these threads:
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4756 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4756)
http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4958 (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/topic,4958)
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 14, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 14, 2017, 01:11:18 AM
What elevation do you live at?

I'm at 6300'.  I asked 5 Star to correct for altitude
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 14, 2017, 09:04:42 AM
Quote from: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 04:39:08 AM
I noticed you have a 2012 F150!!  Did you ever have your intercooler checked out in form of an updated TSB followed by a reflash of the PCM.?  Z
I would also check your boost solenoid and waste-gate hoses to make sure the hoses are not loose or split.
Any DTC codes set ? How many miles on her?
DSMtuned due setup an intro by following the below link and Welcome,thanks. Z

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html (http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html)

I bought my truck with 54k mile on it and it has 63k now.  It had the cam phaser and chain TSB done, but I'm not sure about the intercooler TSB.  How could I find this out?

No DTCs at this time.  I've checked all my vacuum, but I'll go through those again to be sure.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: ZSHO on April 14, 2017, 09:35:44 AM
Here are a couple of links for ya,hope it helps any. Z
http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf (http://www.ifama.net/documents/fordservicemessagesandbulletins-may-sept2013.pdf)
Under truck lines

BCM   6555   – 2011 -2013-F-150 3.5L GTDI– Identifying latest Level Charge   Air Cooler (CAC) By Service/   
Engineering Part Numbers
2011-2013 F-150 3.5L Gas Turbo Direct Injected (GTDI) latest level CAC   canbe identified   by inspecting the white   
part number label located on the   driver side   end tank of the CAC.
Service part BL3Z-6K775-B   (Engineering part   
BL34-9L440-AE) is applicable to 2011– 2012 model years only and Service   part   DL3Z-6K775-B (Engineering part
DL34-9L440-AC/AD) is applicable to 2013 model year only.   

Recalls & TSB
http://recalltsb.com/2012/FORD/F-150 (http://recalltsb.com/2012/FORD/F-150)

CAC (Intercooler)
ftp://http://youtu.be/3O38zB9RgAk (http://youtu.be/3O38zB9RgAk)
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: SHOdded on April 14, 2017, 10:08:16 AM
We have some f150 recall/tsb stuff on here, but this is a very handy site:
http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/Tsb/Results?Year=2012&Make=54&Model=666 (http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/Tsb/Results?Year=2012&Make=54&Model=666)
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 14, 2017, 04:47:57 PM
Thanks for all the links!  Those should be helpful.

It looks like my intercooler is one letter off from the problem ones, so hopefully it's ok. 

My logs don't indicate any misfires. 

Attached is a log from today.  It looks like boost, load, and throttle position are all bouncing around.  Wastegate percentage also seems less stable than I would expect.  Any ideas?  I sure appreciate it! 
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 15, 2017, 08:43:33 PM
Here's a video of the issue.  https://youtu.be/pw7i13hSIL0

Just for reiteration, I just installed a catted downpipe.  This boost flutter happens at moderate throttle, low RPMs, and with moderate load.  It happens with the stock calibration, my last revision custom tune, and with the updated custom tune to correct for the downpipe.  Attached is a log.  You can see it happens 3x a second.

I noticed this with the stock calibration prior to the downpipe when locked in 6th gear going 65 in the mountains.  It happened occasionally with my custom tunes, but never this dramatic and only when really lugging.  Now it occurs with all of my prior custom tunes and with the updated ones. 

It sounds like the BOVs are dumping boost.  If you look at the logs, the throttle angle and the wastegate increase just after the boost deceases, mostly.

Here are my working theories:
1) BOV solenoids (one or both) are failing.  2012 F-150 here, so mechanical BOVs.
2) Wastegate solenoid is failing.  You can see the WG percentage sometimes falls when the boost falls, but not always, so I'm thinking the sharp increase is more of a compensation.
3) Wastegates are mechanically being blown open due to weak springs and the decreased backpressure with the new high flow downpipe made this worse.

Not too long ago I cleaned my MAP sensors and placed clamps on all my vacuum hoses.  I also checked for any cracked lines or connections. 

I still can't put my finger on why the throttle angle would change with the oscillation of boost like it does. 

Any ideas here?  I want to be excited about my new downpipe, but I'm really feeling kind of bummed.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 16, 2017, 10:37:44 AM
Did you have 5 star review the logs?
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 16, 2017, 10:47:46 AM
Quote from: DSMtuned on April 15, 2017, 08:43:33 PM




1) BOV solenoids (one or both) are failing.  2012 F-150 here, so mechanical BOVs.
2) Wastegate solenoid is failing.  You can see the WG percentage sometimes falls when the boost falls, but not always, so I'm thinking the sharp increase is more of a compensation.
3) Wastegates are mechanically being blown open due to weak springs and the decreased backpressure with the new high flow downpipe made this worse.



I still can't put my finger on why the throttle angle would change with the oscillation of boost like it does. 



I don't think your BOV's are mechanical. Everything is electronically controlled at some point with these.
The downpipes shouldn't have made that dramatic effect on back pressure to the point it would manifest itself in other ways.

You really need to throw out conventional wisdom with the engine management with ecoboost. The throttle will do what it needs to in order to achieve the boost that is being commanded. Have you logged "desired TIP"?

The throttle pedal and throttle blade relationship really mean nothing that you think it does anymore....Your pedal position is simply a torque request and then gets processed in a complex algorithm which gets turned into an airflow request which then gets turned into a TIP(throttle inlet pressure) and the throttle will do what it wants to maintain the same TIP in the intake manifold.

I also think your elevation is playing a factor
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: lamrith on April 16, 2017, 12:09:40 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 16, 2017, 10:47:46 AM
Quote from: DSMtuned on April 15, 2017, 08:43:33 PM




1) BOV solenoids (one or both) are failing.  2012 F-150 here, so mechanical BOVs.
2) Wastegate solenoid is failing.  You can see the WG percentage sometimes falls when the boost falls, but not always, so I'm thinking the sharp increase is more of a compensation.
3) Wastegates are mechanically being blown open due to weak springs and the decreased backpressure with the new high flow downpipe made this worse.



I still can't put my finger on why the throttle angle would change with the oscillation of boost like it does. 



I don't think your BOV's are mechanical. Everything is electronically controlled at some point with these.
The downpipes shouldn't have made that dramatic effect on back pressure to the point it would manifest itself in other ways.

You really need to throw out conventional wisdom with the engine management with ecoboost. The throttle will do what it needs to in order to achieve the boost that is being commanded. Have you logged "desired TIP"?

The throttle pedal and throttle blade relationship really mean nothing that you think it does anymore....Your pedal position is simply a torque request and then gets processed in a complex algorithm which gets turned into an airflow request which then gets turned into a TIP(throttle inlet pressure) and the throttle will do what it wants to maintain the same TIP in the intake manifold.

I also think your elevation is playing a factor
WOW,
Great breakdown.  I am not having problems at all, but that writeup is great info to help understand a little bit on how this newer system works.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: Colorado-SHOBro on April 16, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: DSMtuned on April 14, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 14, 2017, 01:11:18 AM
What elevation do you live at?

I'm at 6300'.  I asked 5 Star to correct for altitude
Where do you live?

Don't underestimate the impact of altitude on a tune with these ecoboosts. Me and AJP turbo had to iron out a good few details when tuning my car and he was willing and able to put in the effort to see exactly what worked.  It's hard for me to believe any vendor out there has enough experience tuning at altitude to get it right on the 1st couple of tunes. If i were you, bugging 5 star to look at the logs and troubleshoot would be the 1st step.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 16, 2017, 01:14:38 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 16, 2017, 10:37:44 AM
Did you have 5 star review the logs?

I sent them the logs on Friday afternoon.  I'll probably call them tomorrow.

Attached is the full log.  It does have TIP boost and TIP boost dsd.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 16, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
Hmm.  Good info on how TIP works.  I didn't log it, but I will now.

I live at 6300' in Lakewood, CO,  but spend a lot of time going up and down the mountains over 10k'.

I thought the 2011 and 2012 F-150s had mechanical BOVs with electronic solenoid activation.  There's also a 3rd solenoid for the wastegates.  Regardless, the PCM has its hands in everything.

Any idea why the addition of a downpipe would make this so dramatic?
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: Colorado-SHOBro on April 16, 2017, 01:39:37 PM
sweet! i'm in arvada but can often be caught cruising around in lakewood. keep your eye out for me! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170416/1aeaa9a7a0a0b6c11d9de17791cb8556.jpg)
anyhow, does this issue occur around town or only when you drive up in elevation? can't see the downpipes making any difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 16, 2017, 02:20:25 PM
Nice! I work for Arvada Fire and I'm actually on duty right now!

Yeah the flutter happens anytime I go 3/4 throttle in the lower RPMS, 2000-3000.  Keep in mind my truck makes full boost at around 2500RPMs.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: SHOdded on April 16, 2017, 03:13:17 PM
Wastegates are known to break springs and seals, but like AJ said it could all very well be the tune.  Or a combination.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 17, 2017, 12:11:50 AM
When you log add "Desired TIP" , not "TIP"....I would look at MAP anyway more than TIP.

If desired TIP is smooth but MAP is fluttering then you probably have a mechanical problem....If your desired tip is also oscillating then the tune is probably making it do that
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 17, 2017, 04:02:14 PM
I was looking at the TIP boost vs TIP boost desired and the TIP boost is much higher and less smooth.  Previous logs show these as relatively close to each other. 

Would that indicate a mechanical overboosting situation?

Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 17, 2017, 04:54:27 PM
Tip will be all over the place especially if the tuner uses the throttle to help control boost like the oem
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 18, 2017, 08:04:22 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 17, 2017, 04:54:27 PM
Tip will be all over the place especially if the tuner uses the throttle to help control boost like the oem

Oh I see.

Well today I took the BOVs apart and checked for tears.  They're good to go.  I also checked for boost leaks by tightening clamps.  All the vacuum hoses look good. 

Reset the KAM and took it for a spin. No better.  Hmm.  Frustrating.  The new boost control and wastegate solenoids should be here in a couple days, so fingers crossed they help.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 19, 2017, 10:10:44 PM
Well it's definitely related to the wastegates. I don't know the cause yet. I'm thinking the tune is not compensating for the decreased backpressure. My tuner is going to look into it.

I almost burned up my GoPro case filming this...

https://youtu.be/xDEsR0Yk3OQ
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 19, 2017, 11:07:08 PM
Shouldnt really have anything to do with back pressure.....i want to say your altitude has more to do with it....wastegates can do funny things if the tq is being commanded in a strange way ...its going to be really tough to figure out
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 20, 2017, 07:16:14 AM
Im not sure you can accurately blame it on anything at this point until you data log what desired tip is doing when the issue occurs....if desired tip is occilating then its just doing what its supposed to

I have found that high altitudes require alternative methods for torque/boost delivery...the normal mehods are not always the best way
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
I fear you are now starting to throw money at parts without proper justification....i thought you posted a log where desired tip is fluctuating....if thats the case then its likely not a hardware problem....something is telling the hardware to act a certain way
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: SHOdded on April 21, 2017, 09:33:30 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?
Do it do it do it
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: ShoBoat on April 21, 2017, 09:38:48 AM
Curious, have you tried to return the truck to the stock tune and see if the issue persists?
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: lamrith on April 21, 2017, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: SHOdded on April 21, 2017, 09:33:30 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?
Do it do it do it
C'mon man try it, everyone is doing it....  hahahaaaa  1st sample is free...:smoke:  local neighborhood tune dealer slingin the goods!!

Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: FoMoCoSHO on April 21, 2017, 10:34:48 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?
Ah, the digital power pimp hard at work, lol.....
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: Colorado-SHOBro on April 21, 2017, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?
When this is offered you better take the bait! take if from someone who has his tune at your exact altitude! He can work through the issues and get your car running right withing a couple revisions if not less. I may have been one of the test products and i'm damn happy with the results.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 22, 2017, 10:17:32 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:23:36 AM
I fear you are now starting to throw money at parts without proper justification....i thought you posted a log where desired tip is fluctuating....if thats the case then its likely not a hardware problem....something is telling the hardware to act a certain way

Yeah I did throw a wastegate solenoid at it because I found one for $15.  I can't find a copy of the PC/ED so I didn't have the test procedure for the solenoid. 

I'm getting frustrated with the lack of communication from the reputable tuner.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 22, 2017, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 21, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
Would you like to try a test tune?

Yeah I'd be happy to try one of your tunes!  I'm pulling my trailer across Colorado in a couple weeks and I'm worried my truck won't pull it.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 22, 2017, 10:23:53 AM
Check your PM
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 22, 2017, 10:26:27 AM
Quote from: ShoBoat on April 21, 2017, 09:38:48 AM
Curious, have you tried to return the truck to the stock tune and see if the issue persists?

I need to try this.  Honestly, I really dislike the factory calibration and have been less than excited to return to stock.   
My truck has been tuned since a week after I bought it.   :). With the downpipe I'll surely to get CELs on the stock tune.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: AJP turbo on April 22, 2017, 10:29:33 AM
You really need to return to stock like mentioned by sho boat

Its really the first step in troubleshooting an issue with a tuned truck....you blindy already threw money at the truck already

You need to isolate and rule things out when possible and returning to stock achieves that
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 22, 2017, 10:38:36 AM
Quote from: AJP turbo on April 22, 2017, 10:29:33 AM
You really need to return to stock like mentioned by sho boat

Its really the first step in troubleshooting an issue with a tuned truck....you blindy already threw money at the truck already

You need to isolate and rule things out when possible and returning to stock achieves that

Got it.  I'll do that today.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 24, 2017, 08:37:30 PM
UPDATE--  **FIXED**

AJP turbo was kind enough to build a test tune for me so I could rule out my tuner's calibration as an issue.  After loading his tune, I found the boost oscillation persisted.  This led me to believe the problem was mechanical. 

I had a feeling that the catch can check valves could be an issue because they are simple spring loaded flaps of rubber vs ball valves.  I took the check valves apart and found both to had failed, causing boost leaks! 

Next I built a boost leak tester.  I found a slit in the driver's side wastegate line under the clamp, where I missed it during inspection of the lines.  After fixing this and returning the PVC system to stock until I can get new check valves for the catch can, I took the truck out for a spin.

FIXED!!!!  Unbelievable!  I think it was coincidence that the boost fluctuation coincided with the downpipe install, or I worsened the wastegate line leak during the install. 

So I learned to not forget my roots of tuning DSMs and Subarus and go for a boost leak test right away instead of going down the road of more complicated problems.


Thank you all for brainstorming with me.  It's great to have a community like this to learn from.
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: SHOdded on April 24, 2017, 10:22:31 PM
Glad to know it wasnt the tune, and that persistence paid off!
Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: Colorado-SHOBro on April 24, 2017, 10:39:07 PM
awesome glad it's fixed! what catch can setup do you have?


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Title: Re: Boost flutter
Post by: DSMtuned on April 24, 2017, 10:43:15 PM
It's the UPR dual valve with the clean side sperarator.  I called them today and they are sending me the updated check valves at a discount.

Ajpturbo initially pointed me toward the catch can.  I never would have thought of that.
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