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Author Topic: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound  (Read 1018 times)

Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 04:01:31 PM »
All -

Apologies if my response came across the wrong way, I do appreciate everyone's input and I am thankful for the responses and the help.  I want to solve this issue and maybe help some other ecoboost owners in the process too!

For those interested in learning more about motor oil, the website forum at www.bobistheoilguy.com is really good.  There are UOAs available for ecoboost engines posted on the site as well as lots of discussion about the impact of different viscosities and other oil attributes.  I highly recommend the site and I have spent countless hours researching all kinds of fluids there.  I've also started ecoboost specific threads regarding oil options on that site in past. 

I did recently change the oil, just about 1500 miles ago, but I also ran a few rounds of fuel injector cleaner on multiple tanks of fuel which may have consumed some/much of the additives.  I'll change the oil and report back if there is any change.  To be honest, it would be great if this solves the problem since it's a very easy fix.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 04:03:20 PM by abs »

Offline SHOdded

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2019, 04:45:15 AM »
Fingers crossed :)  What fuel injector cleaner did you use, and was it used in consecutive tanks? 

As a general rule, if you use a stronger cleaner such as Techron Concentrate Plus or BG 44K or Redline etc., even though they do not state to change the oil after, my advice is to err on the side of caution.  Change the oil after that tank is done.  Why?  Dealing with unknowns.  We never have any idea how much cushion we have after a servicing is done.  And to me, changing oil/filter is a no-brainer way after each cleaning to avoid complications.

I have found benefit from adding TC-W3 oil or Lucas UCL/FIC to the tank for every run in wintertime.  Some use MMO.  In the small quantities stated (4.5-5oz per tank), they will do no harm.  The benefit is cleaning AND lubrication for the injectors, especially good if you run E blend fuels.

BTW, there are a few stalwarts on BITOG (DuckRyder, Subie, etc) that know what they are talking about, but really very few yet that understand boosted/Ecoboost engines.  The sheer misinformed (though wellmeaning) analysis of fuel in the oil blows my mind.  And yet many others that do not understand the engine breakin process does NOT have the same effect on every engine line across all the manufacturers in the world.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 04:48:21 AM by SHOdded »
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If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2019, 07:11:44 AM »
Since my last oil change I ran a tank of LiquiMoly Jektron cleaner and a second tank with Redline Fuel System cleaner, they were not run back to back but with only one normal tank in-between.  I agree that these cleaners could have had an effect on the oil and might be part of what is happening.

There are some other very knowledgeable folks on that BITOG board including Molekule and Chatterham.  Having said that, the quality of some of the content on that board has declined as more people have begun to participate.  I've been an active member there for many years and I've noted the changes . . . It is important to discern what is real versus hyperbole and what is fact based versus assumption at this point.

For a period of time I was regularly running Lucas UCL or MMO in my Flex, but eventually I stopped.  I've never tried the TC-W3 although I've read good things.  By the way some very interesting tests of combustion chamber cleaners which you might enjoy watching here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdz6BMj8EA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVyin2n24X8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX-h62PUu0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOCvfQD8Tqk

Offline SHOdded

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2019, 07:22:37 AM »
Yes, I am familiar with Project Farm, have watched a LOT of his videos. also watched Chris Fix, fordTechMakuloco, Scotty Kilmer, south main auto, there is no shortage of consumption on my part LOL.  Also spent plenty of time talking to formulators at oil companies, ultimately they are obliged not to say anything pertinent or I am bound not to.  I read technical papers published by reaserchers, independent or otherwise.  I can name many other knowledgeable people at BITOG as well, but I dont.  The problem is, none of this is really first hand knowledge.  But the cleaners I have mentioned, I DO have 1st hand experience with, so that is what I talk about. 

Anyhoo, sorry for rambling on.  Lets see if we can get the issues with your ride resolved :)
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2019, 07:31:41 AM »
SHOdded -

Thanks for the comments.  Sounds like we have conducted similar research. 

I was able to find another YouTube videos where an EB has a more or less identical sound to what mine is doing.  The video below is of a nearly brand new Lincoln with EB and by around 2:50 mark, the sound is pretty much identical to my engine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXnRUe0rCRs&t=0s&index=2&list=FLZcSjv-VH4qERqjiwqHuBfg



Offline SHOdded

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2019, 08:22:33 AM »
Hmmm.  5W20, it is not going to be an ecoboost on an MKX.  All ecoboosts on the Edge/MKX were 5W30 from the start.

Regardless, these engines are noisy to begin with.  Once you take the cover off, OH BOY!  I know Ford had issued TSBs on the naturally aspirated 3.5/3.7 due to noise, and there were some cam cap modifications involved IIRC.  Other than that, Ford has made no mention of anything related to engine noise in particular.

Doesn't sound like belt tensioner noise either.  At least mine sounded like cards in spinning bicycle spokes, and only on cold startups on cold days.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2019, 01:52:18 PM »
Okay more information.  I changed the oil today, I decided to go with and OEM FL500S filter and 5W-30 oil.  I also pulled the #1 and #4 spark plugs.  They have only been in the car for about 1,500 miles, but they both had a lot of carbon build up around the bottom of the threaded part of the plug, but otherwise looked fine.  I further investigated the noise while the car was up on ramps.  Using the mechanics stethoscope, the noise is loudest on the timing cover and on the oil pan.  It really isn't detectable from the valve covers.   It is noticeable on the timing cover in front of both heads.  I've also pulled the power to each ignition coil, one by one, for every cylinder, and the noise did not go away or change.  The sound does not appear to be emanating from the accessory tensioner, alternator or compressor.

I think that if it were a single cam phaser causing the noise, I'd expect the sound to be much louder on one side than the other and it isn't.  I'm beginning to narrow this down to the water pump, timing chain guide, a piston (cracked skirt), wrist pin or crank bearing.  The sound is clearly radiating through the block as I can hear it loudly through the aluminum oil pan.  I still feel that the water pump is the number 1 most likely culprit, but I'm not sure.  I'm open for ideas of what tests I can do to further isolate this.

Offline Macgyver

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2019, 08:19:41 PM »
No cross contamination in the oil obviously.

Will be interesting to find out the cause of the knock.

Offline FoMoCoSHO

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2019, 08:34:17 PM »
ABS- I asked if you were monitoring KR, I never saw a response.

I asked because I had my entire timing set rebuilt under warranty. The only reason I caught it before the engine grenaded is because I started seeing KR at levels and places it shouldn't be.

For example, I would see +7 right off idle without boost.

There were NO issues at WOT either.

Interesting sidenote....KR pretty much doesn't exist since everything was rebuilt. The last 3 months the max KR logged was .79 with 15PSI and high 20s WOT spark. I was actually surprised at the .79 because prior to that, .09 was the max for a while. Since I reset the maxes its back to .09


« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 08:43:47 PM by FoMoCoSHO »
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Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2019, 12:41:47 PM »
 FoMoCoSHO - I'll check for knock once I get the engine back together.

I decided to pull all the spark plugs today and also conduct a compression test.  The plugs look generally okay, the ones closes to the intake have more soot on them than the rest,but none were in terrible shape.

Compression results (tested with a cold engine and all plugs out):

Cylinder 1 = 200 psi
Cylinder 2 = 195 psi
Cylinder 3 = 187 psi
Cylinder 4 = 194 psi
Cylinder 5 = 190 psi
Cylinder 6 = 192 psi

I believe these are acceptable results, any feedback will be appreciated.

Next, I am going to rotate the engine, bringing each piston to TDC, and check each for any bearing play or movement.

Offline ZSHO

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2019, 02:31:10 PM »
Okay more information.  I changed the oil today, I decided to go with and OEM FL500S filter and 5W-30 oil.  I also pulled the #1 and #4 spark plugs.  They have only been in the car for about 1,500 miles, but they both had a lot of carbon build up around the bottom of the threaded part of the plug, but otherwise looked fine.  I further investigated the noise while the car was up on ramps.  Using the mechanics stethoscope, the noise is loudest on the timing cover and on the oil pan.  It really isn't detectable from the valve covers.   It is noticeable on the timing cover in front of both heads.  I've also pulled the power to each ignition coil, one by one, for every cylinder, and the noise did not go away or change.  The sound does not appear to be emanating from the accessory tensioner, alternator or compressor.

I think that if it were a single cam phaser causing the noise, I'd expect the sound to be much louder on one side than the other and it isn't.  I'm beginning to narrow this down to the water pump, timing chain guide, a piston (cracked skirt), wrist pin or crank bearing.  The sound is clearly radiating through the block as I can hear it loudly through the aluminum oil pan.  I still feel that the water pump is the number 1 most likely culprit, but I'm not sure.  I'm open for ideas of what tests I can do to further isolate this.
I would give it a couple key off cycles before any notable changes to the cam phasers itself!
Hmm! I thought you mentioned on your initial post the front phaser sounds different than the rear one!

Has the sound of the phasers changed any! TOL. Z
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 02:40:46 PM by ZSHO »


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Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2019, 12:55:20 PM »
Well, I have been unable to determine the source of the noise so it went to my local Ford dealer today to diagnose the sound.  It does not appear to be emanating from the cam phasers and it does not sound like the cam phasers based on other videos I've seen.  It also does not make the sound when cold, but is very noticeable when hot.  I did hear somewhat of a variance in the sound of the phasers themselves and the vibration of the actuators from one head to the other, but I would be surprised if that is what is causing the sound.  Using the mechanics ears/stethoscope, I could clearly hear the noise at the oil pan (down its length) and middle of the timing chain cover.  I have seen some videos on YouTube where a similar sound was determined to be a damaged piston skirt.  So, I'm pretty sure it will be one of the following:  water pump, piston skirt, piston wrist pin, piston rod bearing, or crankshaft mains.  The engine has never run low on oil and has always been maintained with synthetic oils so I'm really hoping it is not a bearing, wrist pin or skirt.  If it is the water pump, I guess I'll be going in to replace the pump, guides, chains, tensioners and pump . . .
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 12:57:43 PM by abs »

Offline SHOdded

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2019, 01:52:53 PM »
When they figure out what is wrong, and it is internal to the block, you may want to bring in Ford Customer Service.  After all, it is a remanned block and should last WAY longer than the warranty period.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Offline abs

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2019, 08:39:34 AM »
Latest updates:

Brought the car to my local Ford dealer to have them evaluate it. Same as me, they were unable to identify what specifically was causing the noise. They think it could be piston slap, a wrist pin or a bearing. Their feedback was just drive it, it could last another 50k miles or more despite the noise. They tried shutting down cylinders and noted, as did I when I did the same test, that there was no change in the engine noise. To me this is a key fact! Piston slap, a wrist pin or a bearing should all change sound when the cylinder is de-activated. I asked them if it could be the water pump. The feedback was they didn't think so because they believe that the pump would be leaking coolant badly if the bearing was starting to fail allowing the impeller to hit the block.

Now, having said all that, I still think it could potentially be the water pump. My recollection is that the area of the block that the pump fits into is fairly small. The pump impeller, to work properly, has to have a tight tolerance with the surrounding enclosure in the block to allow the pump to actually work and move coolant. Also, a bearing failure can occur in different ways, for example maybe there is movement in the z-axis along the impeller shaft allowing the impeller to hit the metal directly in front of it and not necessarily the metal around it . . . One other interesting note, for the first time since I've had the rebuilt engine installed, I heard the famous "startup rattle" yesterday. I think this could be further evidence of a water pump bearing starting to fail.

I've also thought this through and there are three additional scenarios that could potentially be causing the noise: 1) An oil pump problem, 2) a cracked piston skirt where part of the piston actually broke off and dropped into the oil pan or 3) a cracked/damaged timing guide knocking around inside the timing chain cover. As part of my diagnostics, I did an oil change to see if there would be any change in the engine noise and there was not. However, I did run the oil from that most recent oil change through a fine mesh screen (one used for straining automotive spray paint) to see if there were any noticeable metal or plastic bits in the oil, and there were none.

I'm open to recommendations on this, but I think my next step is to pull the front valve cover and see if there is noticeable play in the timing chain coming up from the water pump and to the bank 2 camshaft actuator.

Offline SHOdded

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Re: Help me Diagnose Knocking Sound
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2019, 10:43:57 AM »
At best, you could surmise issues with the guide/tensioner causing slack in the timing chain.  Shouldn't stretch this early, but could be.  The water pump being affected would be secondary to this scenario, not primary.  Regardless, if one or the other is the cause, in for a penny in for a pound.  Go in to replace WP, replace timing components.  Go in to replace timing components, replace WP.

If you are ok with pulling the VCs, I suppose you could tell if there is slack in the chains, whether from stretch or due to a faulty guide.

I would definitely make sure to use filters constructed similarly to the MC with relation to the ADBV to minimize the issue of oil starvation at startup.  An ester based full synthetic oil would not hurt either.  Beyond that, it is down to timing components I think.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

 

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