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The 3.5 has let me down a little bit.

Started by Vortech347, August 09, 2018, 05:36:10 PM

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Vortech347

Quote from: TopherSho on August 10, 2018, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 10, 2018, 12:07:14 PM
On the way home from the track I remembered I could load the CFG file he made for me and log it on the X4.  I took a log for a quick 2-3 pull.  You can see how long the car stays in 3rd gear.  So the massive temps from idling for 5 minutes aren't showing up.  Nor the 145* surface temp.   This is nothing though compared to the track.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that I'm extremely happy with Brad.  Everyone is so quick to blame the tuner.   He's probably seen enough so many of my fricken logs he needs a spare hard drive for them.

Wow ... that temp curve is pretty rough. 

Ok downshift,  and about 1 second later we have knock,  that drops spark to sub 6' degrees for almost a full second and drops the throttle for 2 full seconds from 45% to 60% then normal,  after that it builds spark back up to mid 11's,  but by the time it recovers we have 127f on IAT2 at time frame 302 and we loosing spark over time. 

Last time I checked every 10f over 100f the ecu will pull however much Brad has set to decrement for knock and safety...   1 second later (frame 303) you are at 132 and gain about 5 degrees f every second.

What I find curious is the increasing IAT2 with 71f ambient.  It is generating a TON of heat trying to push the turbos.. what PSI are you running?  You may see better benefit on a non meth tune by dropping psi in favor of spark gains.  Brad and i tested this back and forth at least 10 times in various experiments with lower boost settings,  we found my car ran the best on 14psi without meth .. 

When I ran without meth at near sea level i would not see that style of temp increase.  At PIR with 105 temps outside and 135f track temps i would drop 160-120 on the IAT2 on launch and climb back up.. but not at the rate you are. 

I would see if anyone else has tuned for that DA and look at thier logs to see if this is normal.

I have wondered the same thing about spark vs boost.  My boost spike on the X4 using the standard load out shows 16-17 but sustained is usually 12.8-13 psi.  In the winter It'll hold 13.5.  I wonder what say, 11psi would do with more spark.   The guy in the explorer sport ran 4 different tunes and all yielded almost the same results.  He only lost a few tenths going back to 100% stock.  Brad tried higher boost but it wasn't worth turning my turbos into blow torches.  Plus my waste gate cycle was through the roof.  Those numbers are with 96 oct in the tank too!!!

The #1 thing my car does that I hate more than taking a hot woman home and finding she has a sausage is the power falls off after 5k... Then just struggles.... Grabs 4th and starts chugging again.   I tried short shifting it on one pass and had no change.

The thin air compounds problems with everything.  IC's are less effective, turbo's are less effective...ect...

On a side note though, I finally noticed the extra punch that fuel let the car have timing wise coming back from an appointment last night at 11 through a canyon with high 60's ambient.  The car hauled ass.  I'll bet it had 100hp more than at the track.
Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

TopherSho

Brad is super intuitive and by far the best tuner I have worked with so i defer to his wisdom,  have you talked him recently on this topic?  I would stress getting a full datalog 1-100 and a 3rd gear sweep when it is behaving as worse as it was and have him provide input. 

how old is this tune?  was it built prior to the high temps?  or in a different location you are running?

My crazy 2c is to indeed try a lower boost tune for high altitude and high ambient temps,  you need to in my head combat the aggressive temp climbing under WoT.  If you gain nothing but loose nothing then that tune imo is easier on the hardware over time. 

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

ZSHO

#17
I would of tried shutting OFF the radio & the air cooled seats option prior to lining up! The less Battery draw the better IMO! Z 


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Vortech347

Quote from: ZSHO on August 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I would of tried shutting OFF the radio & the air cooled seats option prior to lining up! The less Battery draw the better IMO! Z

I did this. :). I even pee'd before my last pass.

Brad and I have talked a ton.
Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

irondoor19

Quote from: Vortech347 on August 10, 2018, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on August 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I would of tried shutting OFF the radio & the air cooled seats option prior to lining up! The less Battery draw the better IMO! Z

I did this. :). I even pee'd before my last pass.

Brad and I have talked a ton.

Let's talk about Cooling:  There are Some 12VDC Portable fans Out there (NEXT to Purchase)
The Fan Mods on this Forum, Oh Yea,  I have been Packing the Freezer Cold Bags with Me
Placing Em on the Intake, and Running ALL the Fans in the Pit lane, Remove Prior to Next Run
AND this Works For Me.

As far as the Cooled Seats Go,
I need em ON to Cool My Big Butt,
Stereo Up to 6/10 or 7/10s....
My Concentration is Much better
2010 Lincoln MKS, BONE Stock for Now, 2014 3.7L Police, Drop IN K&N,

ZSHO

#20
Quote from: irondoor19 on August 11, 2018, 01:32:50 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 10, 2018, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on August 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I would of tried shutting OFF the radio & the air cooled seats option prior to lining up! The less Battery draw the better IMO! Z

I did this. :). I even pee'd before my last pass.

Brad and I have talked a ton.

Let's talk about Cooling:  There are Some 12VDC Portable fans Out there (NEXT to Purchase)
The Fan Mods on this Forum, Oh Yea,  I have been Packing the Freezer Cold Bags with Me
Placing Em on the Intake, and Running ALL the Fans in the Pit lane, Remove Prior to Next Run
AND this Works For Me.

As far as the Cooled Seats Go,
I need em ON to Cool My Big Butt,
Stereo Up to 6/10 or 7/10s....
My Concentration is Much better
True indeed! But NO ice packs for me since being DPM!  Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Vortech347

Quote from: irondoor19 on August 11, 2018, 01:32:50 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 10, 2018, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: ZSHO on August 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I would of tried shutting OFF the radio & the air cooled seats option prior to lining up! The less Battery draw the better IMO! Z

I did this. :). I even pee'd before my last pass.

Brad and I have talked a ton.

Let's talk about Cooling:  There are Some 12VDC Portable fans Out there (NEXT to Purchase)
The Fan Mods on this Forum, Oh Yea,  I have been Packing the Freezer Cold Bags with Me
Placing Em on the Intake, and Running ALL the Fans in the Pit lane, Remove Prior to Next Run
AND this Works For Me.

As far as the Cooled Seats Go,
I need em ON to Cool My Big Butt,
Stereo Up to 6/10 or 7/10s....
My Concentration is Much better

The whole ice and extra fan thing works great if you go straight from the pits to your pass.  When you have to idle for 5-10 minutes 20 cars deep in the staging lanes all that extra cooling you've done goes to complete waste.  (I can't neutral push it, our staging lanes have a slightly up hill grade and didn't have pit crew with me.)  Nor do I give a damn to go that extreme on my daily driver.

That being said, I think if whoever tunes your car leaves the fans adjustable get that High fan on 100% of the time if you can.  I noticed my fan was hardly on at all.  But when I had the AC on and it was in high the IC heat soak was much less when sitting and idling.  In my fox I have an over ride switch to my fan controllers that run them 100% It works great for a fast cool down between runs when you get into the finals and keeps the idle heat soak at bay when in the staging lanes.  But really, the IC in this car is in such a shitty place.  Everything is just a band aid to try and fix a non-performance design.

Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

SHOdded

Simplest mod of all pioneered by brucelinc.  Remove weatherstripping at firewall!  Popping the hood till you are ready to run is another thing.  Maybe mod the latch for remote control.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

Vortech347

Took the Mdesign out for it's first test run tonight.

It's mid 70's ambient.  From a stop with a 2200 RPM launch the car was fantastic.  Broke loose at launch then spun again around 4500.  Second torque steers like crazy, 3rd came in and...it pulled better but meh.  However Cruising for a little bit then doing a 3rd gear kick down it feels much stronger  probably because the IC isn't heat soaked.

Here's a quick log I took.  I cruised for about 2 miles at 60mph, dropped down slow, locked it in 3rd, and pulled till it shifted.  Still have 96 oct from Torco in the tank. 

Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

StealBlueSho

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2018, 09:03:29 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 09, 2018, 07:59:01 PM
Just cruising around in traffic I'm at 3.99 knock. Haha. It's 100* today. Knock life for the win.  Just idling for 5 minutes while waiting for a client my IAT1 is 145 and IAT2 is 170.
Right there is why open element filters are a terrible idea in these cars.

Yup... on my 2016 I have noticed a sharp increase in IATs since switching to the AIRAID hot air intake... didn't care on my 2010 cause it was meth fed...

But on this E30 tune I'm not get any knock despite the higher temps...

Tempted to grab the stock box out of storage next time I go to the track..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SHOdded

o x y g e n a t e d fuel ... N/A motors like it, forced induction motors LOVE it :D
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

TopherSho

#26
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 14, 2018, 02:02:54 AM
Took the Mdesign out for it's first test run tonight.

It's mid 70's ambient.  From a stop with a 2200 RPM launch the car was fantastic.  Broke loose at launch then spun again around 4500.  Second torque steers like crazy, 3rd came in and...it pulled better but meh.  However Cruising for a little bit then doing a 3rd gear kick down it feels much stronger  probably because the IC isn't heat soaked.

Here's a quick log I took.  I cruised for about 2 miles at 60mph, dropped down slow, locked it in 3rd, and pulled till it shifted.  Still have 96 oct from Torco in the tank.

you were almost perfect,  you were 14/15' degrees spark in third and then the knock hit.  After that the temps spiked and it did not recover.  What did brad say about the DA/Knock and the temp spikes?  you spiked almost 30f in less than 5 seconds.

(FYI when i was non-meth 15/16 spark in third was excellent and allowed me to run 13.2 at PIR all night long.)

the knock came in outside the temp spike which makes me suspicious..  have you checked your plugs? you had high octane torco,  so knock ''should not'' be temp related.. this leads me back to ::

-carbon on the plugs/cracked plug/bad plug
-chaffed knock wires
-lean conditions (but did not look this way in the logs)

I have not run a non-meth tune in more than a year,  so i do not know of if this is normal but i'd ask Brad about the STFT pulling fuel pretty quickly AFTER the knock.

I would put the oem intake back on if you have not.  the oem tunnels are sufficient and do not cause power loss.

oh oh .. last minute thought.. did you mod/alter/'shim' the IAT2/3bar sensor in any way?  I just want to make sure the element is in the air stream. 


2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

Vortech347

Quote from: TopherSho on August 16, 2018, 01:19:04 PM
Quote from: Vortech347 on August 14, 2018, 02:02:54 AM
Took the Mdesign out for it's first test run tonight.

It's mid 70's ambient.  From a stop with a 2200 RPM launch the car was fantastic.  Broke loose at launch then spun again around 4500.  Second torque steers like crazy, 3rd came in and...it pulled better but meh.  However Cruising for a little bit then doing a 3rd gear kick down it feels much stronger  probably because the IC isn't heat soaked.

Here's a quick log I took.  I cruised for about 2 miles at 60mph, dropped down slow, locked it in 3rd, and pulled till it shifted.  Still have 96 oct from Torco in the tank.

you were almost perfect,  you were 14/15' degrees spark in third and then the knock hit.  After that the temps spiked and it did not recover.  What did brad say about the DA/Knock and the temp spikes?  you spiked almost 30f in less than 5 seconds.

(FYI when i was non-meth 15/16 spark in third was excellent and allowed me to run 13.2 at PIR all night long.)

the knock came in outside the temp spike which makes me suspicious..  have you checked your plugs? you had high octane torco,  so knock ''should not'' be temp related.. this leads me back to ::

-carbon on the plugs/cracked plug/bad plug
-chaffed knock wires
-lean conditions (but did not look this way in the logs)

I have not run a non-meth tune in more than a year,  so i do not know of if this is normal but i'd ask Brad about the STFT pulling fuel pretty quickly AFTER the knock.

I would put the oem intake back on if you have not.  the oem tunnels are sufficient and do not cause power loss.

oh oh .. last minute thought.. did you mod/alter/'shim' the IAT2/3bar sensor in any way?  I just want to make sure the element is in the air stream.

MAP sensor is installed correctly.  Plugs were done about 10k ago, .030 gap. It'll pull nicely in 3rd but once it hits about 5k the fun is over, 5500 to 6k takes FOREVER.  I could make a sandwich.  It takes a 50* night to get 3rd to chug through. Even then it still falls.

Just asking too much of these taxed systems combined with our useless air.



Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0

TopherSho

My plugs failed at about 10k miles .. resulted in a slight stutter at the top-end.. pull the front 3 and check than *just to make sure* .. in my case 1st gear and second were ok.. it was third that had the bad spark issues
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

Vortech347

Quote from: TopherSho on August 17, 2018, 01:43:28 AM
My plugs failed at about 10k miles .. resulted in a slight stutter at the top-end.. pull the front 3 and check than *just to make sure* .. in my case 1st gear and second were ok.. it was third that had the bad spark issues

The car has had this characteristic from day one.  Plugs are fine.

Matt H.
2013 SHO Performance Pack, Daily, AJPTurbo tuned
2003 SVT Cobra 497rwhp/491rwtq, Self tuned, Cruiser
1990 Mustang GT 570rwhp/530twtq, Self tuned, Open Track
2017 F150 XLT 5.0