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J2 Dual Feed Intake

Started by StealBlueSho, August 08, 2018, 09:10:09 AM

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StealBlueSho

Ok... so people smarter than me... please help me understand as I got into a bit of a discussion/disagreement with the the maker of this intake setup that is currently being built....

While the idea is great to have each turbo fed off separate tubes I feel like the filter element sits up too high with the end result not being able to put any kind of heat shielding between it and the rest of the engine bay....

This will lead to the intake system most likely pulling in the heat from the engine bay quite often which would mean air that is much warmer than ambient being pulled into the turbos. Being as how much heat these motors produce, I don't think this is a great design.

The response I got back was that it doesn't matter how hot the air is coming into the intake, its all up to the intercooler to keep the IAT2's down and that filter placement is not a big issue.... nor the ability to seal it off from the rest of the motor...

Here are my concerns/questions...

1: If I am pulling hot air from the engine into the intake due to the placement of the airfilter, wouldn't that cause the turbo's to work harder to generate the same amount of boost? Thus decreasing the life the turbos? Hot air is less dense than cold air.

2: If I am pulling hot air into the turbo's, wouldn't that also mean that the air coming into the intercooler is warmer which makes the overall air coming out of the intercooler warmer?

3:  While I realize that the the air would be cleared out relatively quickly when your at the track, every day driving such a sitting in traffic would be an issue with this intake since your constantly sucking in hot air from the motor?


Thoughts opinions? I was pretty much slammed for bringing these issues up and was told the benefits of having each turbo fed independently overrides the "small" issue of not getting fresh air into the intake... 

SHOdded

Valid concerns.  Since bamsho has demonstrated that having cold air from the signature light area is better than the stock location, at least for the dragstrip, the reverse should hold true as well.  Hot air rises, cold air settles.  Just no 2 ways about it.  Certainly does not look like there is room for shielding, or at the least very very tight.  Chalkmarking would tell the story, might just need a tall strip like the Airaid does?
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

FoMoCoSHO

"The response I got back was that it doesn't matter how hot the air is coming into the intake, its all up to the intercooler to keep the IAT2's down and that filter placement is not a big issue.... nor the ability to seal it off from the rest of the motor"...

Kenne Belle says that guy is an idiot.

http://kennebell.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Kenne-Bell-Warning-Hot-Air-Underhood-Inlet-Kits.pdf

Our intercoolers are challenged from the factory with a closed system, how is it going to contend with hotter air from an open system?

SaveMelMac

There would be some trade off, higher iat vs. airflow. I guess it would depend on how much more air the intake could flow. With our cars not having a maf, I'm not sure if there is a direct way to measure the difference of flow. If that intake flowed significantly more, I would take the trade off few degrees higher IAT.

NITSOOB

Hotter air is less dense, so your not gaining much air when the hood is closed, there is also less pressure vs ambient.
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1/8: 8.4@86

autobahn terror

I have almost the same exact setup, (Hennessy CAI), but with a box. A thin box can be fabbed out of aluminum for fairly cheap. Add some Rubber Weather stripping to the top IOT keep some of the heat out. What  I do notice is the angle of the pipes and the filter are such that it is really limiting the room you have to work with. I would see if you can get the top pipe extended longer to have the orientation of the filter be more strait up and down; maybe the lower pipe to the frunt turbo shorter to sink the filter into the bay deeper. It would net you more room for fabing a box.

FWIW thou, You are running meth, so your IAT's as measured at the Intake Manifold would be mildly affected if at all. As far as air density it will definitely affect the air charge density and temp
2014 PP, Dicunzolo Gen2 Mounts, Gear Head Intercooler, EcoPowerParts Charge Pipes w/Meth Bung @1GPH, Hennessy KnN CAI W/RECIRC, Alky controls meth injection, Lightly Ported Intake drilled and tapped for Port Meth Injection 1GPH per Cylinder, XDI EVO HPFP, Deathwerks 340LPH intank LPFP, ATP Turbos, EPP Catless DownPipes, Corsa CAT Back, 160TSTAT, 3BAR MAP, Stock Ignition coils, SP542 plugs .028, UPR Catch Can, MEGAN Coilovers,  Power Stop Z23 Brake Kit, 93octane Dynotune @ 430AWHP/430AWTQ...Soon to be much more

jbeez

They are working to box the filter in AFAIK

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2014 PP SHO Darkside Metallic
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SM105K

"M" 2013 SHO PP | AJPTurbo E30 Tune | FS HPFP | Stock IC with Ice Water DIY Sprayer | PPE Downpipes | Custom Magnaflow Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete | Derale Upgraded Trans Cooler | Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts| EPP Noisemaker Eliminator | MSD Coil Over Plugs | SP-542's | UPR Dual Valve Catch Can | K&N Drop In | Power Stop Slotted and Drilled Rotors with Stock PP Pads | H&R Springs  | AVS Flush Deflector | 802SHO Custom Splitter | Duraflex Chin Spoiler | Curva Concept C7's | Continental DWS06 Extreme Contact Rubber | 411 HP and 546 TQ |

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irondoor19

"Thoughts opinions? I was pretty much slammed for bringing these issues up and was told the benefits of having each turbo fed independently overrides the "small" issue of not getting fresh air into the intake... "

I hate when SOME People think they know everything,
and your valid Questions are gum on the bottom of their shoe
ASK these Guys if they want to Design a NEW Intercooler...?
2010 Lincoln MKS, BONE Stock for Now, 2014 3.7L Police, Drop IN K&N,

J-Will

That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?
2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap

FoMoCoSHO

Quote from: J-Will on August 09, 2018, 03:13:35 PM
That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?
1x6 stock fresh opening air isn't going to overcome the massive heat under the hood.

J-Will

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 09, 2018, 09:07:49 PM
Quote from: J-Will on August 09, 2018, 03:13:35 PM
That is basically the stock location.  I dont know if it'd be any hotter than stock.  Without the snorkel that the stock box uses, wouldnt the air coming in from the snorkel location help dissipate heat away from the filter?
1x6 stock fresh opening air isn't going to overcome the massive heat under the hood.
Maybe not.

I'm skeptical of this intake because we have yet to see one produce real gains.

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2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap

Suddueth13

Quote from: StealBlueSho on August 08, 2018, 09:10:09 AM

1: If I am pulling hot air from the engine into the intake due to the placement of the airfilter, wouldn't that cause the turbo's to work harder to generate the same amount of boost? Thus decreasing the life the turbos? Hot air is less dense than cold air.

2: If I am pulling hot air into the turbo's, wouldn't that also mean that the air coming into the intercooler is warmer which makes the overall air coming out of the intercooler warmer?

3:  While I realize that the the air would be cleared out relatively quickly when your at the track, every day driving such a sitting in traffic would be an issue with this intake since your constantly sucking in hot air from the motor



1: No, the boost pressure is read at the intake manifold which is post intercooler.

2: This isn't always the case. It really depends how efficient the intercooler is. Contrary to popular belief, our intercooler is fairly efficient. An air to air intercooler can only cool charge temps down to ambient. If the intercooler can cool the charge temps down to 10* above ambient with the stock intake, it will be able to do the same with higher inlet temperatures from an aftermarket intake so long as it's within the intercoolers efficiency range.

3: This is where the real issue is. While the vehicle is moving, under hood temperatures are stable enough that you wouldn't be worried about temperature spikes. Sitting in traffic is where you'll start to see heat soak. Problem is that once the intercooler heat soaks, it doesn't matter where the inlet air source is coming from. If you're in traffic that is that bad, you're not concerned with hitting 20psi and not seeing negative ignition corrections anyway.
2013 MKS EcoBoost: Osram LED interior and license plate lights, stock otherwise.

StealBlueSho

#13
Yes, boost is measured at the intake manifold and before the throttle body.  That wasn't the question.


If the air going into the turbo inlet from the intake is hot air from the under the hood, the compressor is going to work harder to generate the same amount of boost as cold air.

Hot air is less dense... so you need more of it to create the same amount of boost as colder air. To achieve this the wastegate is gonna to close more to get the compressor to spin faster so tt can compress more air to achieve target boost....

I would think this would cause more wear and tear on the turbos.

But in any event.... after I was told the return on investment of developing a box to enclose the filter was not worth it, and that it didn't matter....surprise... they are now developing a box that seals to the hood just like BPD1151 setup....

Irritating that the guy putting this together would be such a dick about a suggestion, hammer me on how useless it would be, then turn around and do it anyway....



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SaveMelMac

Boost pressure is relative. 10 psi is 10 psi no matter the air temp. Pressure can change with air temp in a static environment but a engine isn't that. Hotter air has less oxygen molecules that reach the combustion chamber. The turbos aren't working any harder sucking in warmer air. What we should really be taking about is flow.