• Welcome to Ecoboost Performance Forum. Please log in or sign up.
collapse

anyone good with the maths? put in a new nozzle but not seeing better knock.

Started by TopherSho, April 05, 2018, 12:16:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

TopherSho

So i move from a SNOW nozzle that was rated 375ml at 280psi,  to a Devils Own #4 nozzle that is rated 440ml at 200psi.  I am using that nozzle with my 280psi pump.. so i expect it to push more meth.

(1) whats the math on this,  how do i compute the new flow with a higher rated pump?
(2) since i have at least in my head 150ml MORE flow, why would i not see a better knock profile? is this a result of the .3 gap versus the .28 gap?
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

derfdog15

1ml/min is equivalent to 0.0158503 gal/hr (GHR) thus the rating on devils own is 440 ml/min is equivalent to 6.97414 GPH @ 200psi

This would also mean that 375 ml/min @ 280 PSI for the Snow nozzle equates to 5.94387 GPH.

This would be approx 17% flow increase at 80 PSI less from the Devils own nozzle vs. the Snow nozzle.

Some math from a forum post that came from devils own:


Standard nozzle pressure per devils own is 100psi (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/nozzle-size-calculator/2210-nozzle-flow-rate.html)

Here is the formula to calculate flow rate vs pressure.
1. Divide new pressure by 100 psi (standard nozzle pressure)
Example: 140 divided 100 = 1.4
2. Obtain square root with calculator
Example 1.4 sq-root = 1.1832159
3. Multiply result by nozzle size at 100 psi
Example: 1.1832159 x 1.00 = 1.18 GPH
This is your new flow rate @ 140 psi of pressure.
hope this helps you.

So in your case @ 280 PSI we get the below for the Devils Own #4
280/100 = 2.8 ^ (1/2) = 1.67332005307 * 1 (I do NOT know the flow rate of the DO4 at 100PSI, thus this calculation becomes invalid unless this is correct) = 1.67332005307 GPH @ 100PSI.

@ 200PSI per the Devils own poster within the same thread you would be at DO4 @ 200PSI 5.66GPH  (working backwards from this we could assume that the flow rate at 100 PSI becomes the following:

200/100 = 2 ^ (1/2) = 1.41421356237
5.66 GPH @ 200 PSI = 1.41421356237 * Flow Rate @ 100 PSI => Flow Rate @ 100 PSI = (5.66 GPH / 1.41421356237) = 4.00222438152

If we put this back in our previous equation, where we had a differential value of 1.67332005307, we get Flow Rate @ 280 PSI = 1.67332005307 * 4.00222438152  = 6.69700231448 GPH, this seems like a proper GPH @ 280 PSI given what we know at 200 PSI.

Since Snow gives you ml/min of 375 ml/min @ 280 PSI, we can use the direct conversion we did earlier, giving  5.94387 GPH for the snow nozzle.

This means the increase in flow, assuming my math is correct, is equivalent to [(Devils Own Flow in GPH)/(Snow Flow in GPH)] = ( 6.69700231448 GPH / 5.94387 GPH) =  1.12670740014

To get this as an actual percent, we do (1.12670740014 - 1)*100 = 12.670740014 percent flow increase with the new nozzle.

I am not a meth guru, and the equations/math came from that general devils own equation and using google for unit conversions so feel free to double check.

Snow has this on their site, though I am sure you have seen it (https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm)

You may want to call devils own and talk to them as they would be able to either confirm my math or provide you with the answer or the constants needed to do it ourselves with their equation (ie. the flow rate at 100 psi).

Note that snow lists the nozzels as being rated at 40 PSIG (PSI gauge) on that chart above, which could change things drastically if the snow nozzle is actually rates 375 ml/min @ 40 PSI rather than 280 PSI.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

bpd1151

Whew! **head spinning**

I need a flip'n beer (or 2) after reading that lengthy, mathematically filled, dissertation.

LOL.

Quite informative though, for sure!

TopherSho

Quote from: bpd1151 on April 05, 2018, 01:03:51 PM
Whew! **head spinning**

I need a flip'n beer (or 2) after reading that lengthy, mathematically filled, dissertation.

LOL.

Quite informative though, for sure!

Right !? .. but thank you Derf!  That explains the lack of significant bump in knock.  under 20% is not much more meth ..
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

StealBlueSho

Quote from: derfdog15 on April 05, 2018, 01:01:17 PM
1ml/min is equivalent to 0.0158503 gal/hr (GHR) thus the rating on devils own is 440 ml/min is equivalent to 6.97414 GPH @ 200psi

This would also mean that 375 ml/min @ 280 PSI for the Snow nozzle equates to 5.94387 GPH.

This would be approx 17% flow increase at 80 PSI less from the Devils own nozzle vs. the Snow nozzle.

Some math from a forum post that came from devils own:


Standard nozzle pressure per devils own is 100psi (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/nozzle-size-calculator/2210-nozzle-flow-rate.html)

Here is the formula to calculate flow rate vs pressure.
1. Divide new pressure by 100 psi (standard nozzle pressure)
Example: 140 divided 100 = 1.4
2. Obtain square root with calculator
Example 1.4 sq-root = 1.1832159
3. Multiply result by nozzle size at 100 psi
Example: 1.1832159 x 1.00 = 1.18 GPH
This is your new flow rate @ 140 psi of pressure.
hope this helps you.

So in your case @ 280 PSI we get the below for the Devils Own #4
280/100 = 2.8 ^ (1/2) = 1.67332005307 * 1 (I do NOT know the flow rate of the DO4 at 100PSI, thus this calculation becomes invalid unless this is correct) = 1.67332005307 GPH @ 100PSI.

@ 200PSI per the Devils own poster within the same thread you would be at DO4 @ 200PSI 5.66GPH  (working backwards from this we could assume that the flow rate at 100 PSI becomes the following:

200/100 = 2 ^ (1/2) = 1.41421356237
5.66 GPH @ 200 PSI = 1.41421356237 * Flow Rate @ 100 PSI => Flow Rate @ 100 PSI = (5.66 GPH / 1.41421356237) = 4.00222438152

If we put this back in our previous equation, where we had a differential value of 1.67332005307, we get Flow Rate @ 280 PSI = 1.67332005307 * 4.00222438152  = 6.69700231448 GPH, this seems like a proper GPH @ 280 PSI given what we know at 200 PSI.

Since Snow gives you ml/min of 375 ml/min @ 280 PSI, we can use the direct conversion we did earlier, giving  5.94387 GPH for the snow nozzle.

This means the increase in flow, assuming my math is correct, is equivalent to [(Devils Own Flow in GPH)/(Snow Flow in GPH)] = ( 6.69700231448 GPH / 5.94387 GPH) =  1.12670740014

To get this as an actual percent, we do (1.12670740014 - 1)*100 = 12.670740014 percent flow increase with the new nozzle.

I am not a meth guru, and the equations/math came from that general devils own equation and using google for unit conversions so feel free to double check.

Snow has this on their site, though I am sure you have seen it (https://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/191.htm)

You may want to call devils own and talk to them as they would be able to either confirm my math or provide you with the answer or the constants needed to do it ourselves with their equation (ie. the flow rate at 100 psi).

Note that snow lists the nozzels as being rated at 40 PSIG (PSI gauge) on that chart above, which could change things drastically if the snow nozzle is actually rates 375 ml/min @ 40 PSI rather than 280 PSI.

If you could just put that into a spreadsheet that would great... yeah....

bpd1151

Quote from: stealbluesho on April 05, 2018, 01:38:48 PMIf you could just put that into a spreadsheet that would great... yeah....

Yes...... the math in spreadsheet form and the beer in the form of a keg, with tap included.

LOL

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

autobahn terror

Some questions from the devils advocate,

What are you spraying? Water, Boost Juice, Wiper Fluid, Pure Meth, Montian Dew?

Where are you Spraying? Pre TB, Post TB, at the out let of the Intercooler?

How are you Spraying, Progressive? If so when in the boost curve, and how fast are you ramping?

What fuel are you using, 93?

Do you see differences in IAT?

Are you sure the pump is making the proper pressure its advertised to, or the pressure it was making when is was first installed? How old is the system?

I am just wondering if your not seeing a difference is related to one of these other factors. As far as the Spark gap goes I personally would tighten it down a bit out of personal experiance with my car and tune...

Cheers
2014 PP, Dicunzolo Gen2 Mounts, Gear Head Intercooler, EcoPowerParts Charge Pipes w/Meth Bung @1GPH, Hennessy KnN CAI W/RECIRC, Alky controls meth injection, Lightly Ported Intake drilled and tapped for Port Meth Injection 1GPH per Cylinder, XDI EVO HPFP, Deathwerks 340LPH intank LPFP, ATP Turbos, EPP Catless DownPipes, Corsa CAT Back, 160TSTAT, 3BAR MAP, Stock Ignition coils, SP542 plugs .028, UPR Catch Can, MEGAN Coilovers,  Power Stop Z23 Brake Kit, 93octane Dynotune @ 430AWHP/430AWTQ...Soon to be much more

StealBlueSho

He straightened it out... it was a pump adjustment issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

autobahn terror

2014 PP, Dicunzolo Gen2 Mounts, Gear Head Intercooler, EcoPowerParts Charge Pipes w/Meth Bung @1GPH, Hennessy KnN CAI W/RECIRC, Alky controls meth injection, Lightly Ported Intake drilled and tapped for Port Meth Injection 1GPH per Cylinder, XDI EVO HPFP, Deathwerks 340LPH intank LPFP, ATP Turbos, EPP Catless DownPipes, Corsa CAT Back, 160TSTAT, 3BAR MAP, Stock Ignition coils, SP542 plugs .028, UPR Catch Can, MEGAN Coilovers,  Power Stop Z23 Brake Kit, 93octane Dynotune @ 430AWHP/430AWTQ...Soon to be much more