11’s on pump gas and meth..?

[StealBlueSho]

Higher quality oils/fluids could cut into the et a little, but idk about getting you across that line.  Can you refresh me on what you are using, and how often you change out?

I use Mobile 1 for oil, changed out over frequently... 1500 - 3000 miles depending on how much datalogging/track time I do. Motorcraft LV in the transmission, I have adopted a similar methodology for my transmission fluid. At this point I am doing a 5qt drain and fill when I do a motor oil change. Being as I don't have a the additional transmission cooler the heat from the track will most likely be breaking down the trans fluid at a much higher rate. So after 6K - 12K miles the fluid will have been completely replaced. PTU And RDU fluids are less frequent being as they are harder to replace and I take it ford to have them swapped. So it would be OEM fluids for those. At the moment those are replaced at 20K intervals unless I do a ton of track time which then I will swap them out sooner.

Keep in mind, this car sits most of the time in the garage. So when I say 1500 miles that maybe SEVERAL months so the over all cost is not high.

[StealBlueSho]

Race gas, if no other changes made, will likely be needed.

hmmm.. Ok. I should be happy with very low 12's on pump gas with meth... I don't want to ask Brad for a race fuel tune...

Be it my whacky opinion,  but you are on Brads meth tune.  I have been wondering .. since the tune is not keying off of STFT,  and seems to be more knock related what happens if you drop in 1:7 gallons of e85 : 97-octane ..

maybe im crazy .. but would not the drop of knock with 98 octcane\e11 help boost launch spark?

Not sure what you mean here? Yes, my widebands are in control of how much fuel is delivered while I am spraying meth. So when I spray meth, the WB's pick up the extra fueling which then cause the ECU to pull fuel thus my STFT's show fueling being pulled. Brad did attempt to tune the speed density tables on my tune but that lead to some interesting results. It clean the fuel trims up a lot, but it also caused other stuff to happen...

To be clear, I am not having knock issues. That 12.35 run I had an extremely small amount of KR towards the end of the run. Literally +1 KR for a split second which then the knock sensor started adding timing back. Its almost not enough to even talk about.

Brad can answer this better than I can, but I believe he has a global limiter on the amount of spark that can be added to my tube. I want to say it tops out at 28 degrees. How fast it adds spark can be adjusted and I am unsure if that is adjusted at the moment. Again Brad can answer this...

Helping with launch? I am not getting any KR on launch, and I almost NEVER have KR.. out of 6 runs at the track hot lapping most of them, I only had one moment of KR on the last run, again, it was not much at all...

The reason I am asking about race gas is vs pump gas getting into the 11's is the ability to turn up the tune the more. I am not knock limited at the moment on Brads tune. My car has yet to be knock limited on any tune but more fuel limited. With the meth this is mitigated by quite a bit as the purpose of meth is really to increase the effective octane with its cooling properties. I have talked a bit with Julio and his theory is that you tune your meth to prevent knock and the cooling is an added benefit.

I just see all the cars that have put down 11's are using race gas, and I am curious is 93 octane with meth has enough effective octane to crank up our cars to get to 11's...

[StealBlueSho]

SBS was there any discussion around your topic asking for feedback on upgraded turbos Vs CHRAs?

No, no response. I don't think anyone is running it.

[StealBlueSho]

If the issue is traction why not get a set of wheels and drag radials.  If you just want to crack 11s at the track I would imagine that would be a pretty substantial help. 

The track prep at capital raceway is leaps and bounds better than the track prep at Sumerduck.. mind you... Sumerduck is a mom and pop shop.. so they probably don't want to spend on the money on VHT to keep the track consistently tacky.  My traction issues were more or less eliminated at Capital Raceway.. I had a really good phone call with Irondoor9 on this forum who called to discussed SCT datalogging without a laptop. He also has two SHO's, one with Continentals and one with BFgoodrich Comp 2's. He said that the BFgoodrich longitudinal traction at the track is lacking but the latitudinal traction is really good. IE.. my tires are not optimal for straight line digs but much better in the twisties which I 100% agree with.

Brad and I discussed that my car is pushing past the limits of the tires I have. Not an issue, just is what it is. I am looking to purchase some 18 inch wheels with stickier tires.. maybe continentals or nittos..   

[TopherSho]

@SBS,

Oh I get you don't have knock with/without meth,  that's where my idea came from.  Brad In his explanation to told me the knock system is pretty ware (even if it is passive) of where the octane ''is'' .. which is why we don't see 'real' knock until were like +3kr or more.. My thought is if the BASE fuel octane goes up pre-meth spray would the car add spark above normal pre-spray in the 1st 1500ms of launch?

my spray comes on hard at about 7 pounds,  but that's part way through my the 60ft .. my spark as you have seen is pretty low but 'normal' as the knock sensors are sensing high temp, and low ocatane minus the spray. 

I wonder if you car which is more aggressive than mine would add 2 or 3 degrees of spark on launch because the base fuel would be 98 octane versus 92 ..

[TopherSho]

@SBS,

Oh I get you don't have knock with/without meth,  that's where my idea came from.  Brad In his explanation to told me the knock system is pretty ware (even if it is passive) of where the octane ''is'' .. which is why we don't see 'real' knock until were like +3kr or more.. My thought is if the BASE fuel octane goes up pre-meth spray would the car add spark above normal pre-spray in the 1st 1500ms of launch?

my spray comes on hard at about 7 pounds,  but that's part way through my the 60ft .. my spark as you have seen is pretty low but 'normal' as the knock sensors are sensing high temp, and low ocatane minus the spray. 

I wonder if you car which is more aggressive than mine would add 2 or 3 degrees of spark on launch because the base fuel would be 98 octane versus 92 ..

.. you know what ..     it's testing time!    .. experiment #3 for the TopherSho!  I will log it and see what I get. in about a week (just filled up).

[Colorado-SHOBro]

Race gas, if no other changes made, will likely be needed.

hmmm.. Ok. I should be happy with very low 12's on pump gas with meth... I don't want to ask Brad for a race fuel tune...

Be it my whacky opinion,  but you are on Brads meth tune.  I have been wondering .. since the tune is not keying off of STFT,  and seems to be more knock related what happens if you drop in 1:7 gallons of e85 : 97-octane ..

maybe im crazy .. but would not the drop of knock with 98 octcane\e11 help boost launch spark?

Not sure what you mean here? Yes, my widebands are in control of how much fuel is delivered while I am spraying meth. So when I spray meth, the WB's pick up the extra fueling which then cause the ECU to pull fuel thus my STFT's show fueling being pulled. Brad did attempt to tune the speed density tables on my tune but that lead to some interesting results. It clean the fuel trims up a lot, but it also caused other stuff to happen...

To be clear, I am not having knock issues. That 12.35 run I had an extremely small amount of KR towards the end of the run. Literally +1 KR for a split second which then the knock sensor started adding timing back. Its almost not enough to even talk about.

Brad can answer this better than I can, but I believe he has a global limiter on the amount of spark that can be added to my tube. I want to say it tops out at 28 degrees. How fast it adds spark can be adjusted and I am unsure if that is adjusted at the moment. Again Brad can answer this...

Helping with launch? I am not getting any KR on launch, and I almost NEVER have KR.. out of 6 runs at the track hot lapping most of them, I only had one moment of KR on the last run, again, it was not much at all...

The reason I am asking about race gas is vs pump gas getting into the 11's is the ability to turn up the tune the more. I am not knock limited at the moment on Brads tune. My car has yet to be knock limited on any tune but more fuel limited. With the meth this is mitigated by quite a bit as the purpose of meth is really to increase the effective octane with its cooling properties. I have talked a bit with Julio and his theory is that you tune your meth to prevent knock and the cooling is an added benefit.

I just see all the cars that have put down 11's are using race gas, and I am curious is 93 octane with meth has enough effective octane to crank up our cars to get to 11's...

As i'm sure you know, there's no magic formula that will get EVERY car into the 11's. Same car,same mods, same tuner . . . results always differ.
The question i would be asking myself (and brad) is if there was higher octane, where would there be opportunities in the tune?
Your spark #'s are @ MBT and beyond so not sure there's much opportunity there.
Boost #'s are also high but your turbos aren't maxxed out yet- from looking at your logs that's the only place i see you picking up power. Maybe throw in some race fuel and turn up boost til WGDC is 90% ?? Sure the air is gonna be cooking at that point but that's half the job of the meth-cool it back down just before it hits the combustion chamber.
And of course you're gonna continue to struggle with the traction issue so the extra boost would have to be ramped in real slow in the lower rpms.

I just don't know where else you'd go to pick up the power.

[StealBlueSho]

@SBS,

Oh I get you don't have knock with/without meth,  that's where my idea came from.  Brad In his explanation to told me the knock system is pretty ware (even if it is passive) of where the octane ''is'' .. which is why we don't see 'real' knock until were like +3kr or more.. My thought is if the BASE fuel octane goes up pre-meth spray would the car add spark above normal pre-spray in the 1st 1500ms of launch?

my spray comes on hard at about 7 pounds,  but that's part way through my the 60ft .. my spark as you have seen is pretty low but 'normal' as the knock sensors are sensing high temp, and low ocatane minus the spray. 

I wonder if you car which is more aggressive than mine would add 2 or 3 degrees of spark on launch because the base fuel would be 98 octane versus 92 ..

hmm.. I doubt it, While our cars are "Octane Aware" this is actually a function of Octane Adjust Ratio which is controlled by the ECU and the knock sensors.. the ECU is constantly attempting to add timing until the knock sensor kicks back with a possible knock event. The more often the ecu is adding spark due to no knock events under sustained load, then it scales the spark up.  This you have OAR.. I am not gonna rehash more on OAR, but it does eventually max out meaning any additional octane is not going to be helpful UNLESS you are getting a small amount of KR under long pulls like a 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile. 

The only way to add more spark is either to have Brad add more OR possibly adjust the knock sensor to add more timing faster.

Adding additional octane at this point is more an exercise to prevent any KR  thus taking away timing. IF I wanted more timing I would need Brad to make an adjustment. Since I tickled that knock sensor on the last run, I am unsure if I want to add anymore timing or boost.. my options would be to add more octane by either spraying more meth or running racing fuel coupled with having Brad adjust for the additional octane/fuel..

Brad again, would have a better way to explain.

[TopherSho]

@SBS,

Oh I get you don't have knock with/without meth,  that's where my idea came from.  Brad In his explanation to told me the knock system is pretty ware (even if it is passive) of where the octane ''is'' .. which is why we don't see 'real' knock until were like +3kr or more.. My thought is if the BASE fuel octane goes up pre-meth spray would the car add spark above normal pre-spray in the 1st 1500ms of launch?

my spray comes on hard at about 7 pounds,  but that's part way through my the 60ft .. my spark as you have seen is pretty low but 'normal' as the knock sensors are sensing high temp, and low ocatane minus the spray. 

I wonder if you car which is more aggressive than mine would add 2 or 3 degrees of spark on launch because the base fuel would be 98 octane versus 92 ..

hmm.. I doubt it, While our cars are "Octane Aware" this is actually a function of Octane Adjust Ratio which is controlled by the ECU and the knock sensors.. the ECU is constantly attempting to add timing until the knock sensor kicks back with a possible knock event. The more often the ecu is adding spark due to no knock events under sustained load, then it scales the spark up.  This you have OAR.. I am not gonna rehash more on OAR, but it does eventually max out meaning any additional octane is not going to be helpful UNLESS you are getting a small amount of KR under long pulls like a 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile. 

The only way to add more spark is either to have Brad add more OR possibly adjust the knock sensor to add more timing faster.

Adding additional octane at this point is more an exercise to prevent any KR  thus taking away timing. IF I wanted more timing I would need Brad to make an adjustment. Since I tickled that knock sensor on the last run, I am unsure if I want to add anymore timing or boost.. my options would be to add more octane by either spraying more meth or running racing fuel coupled with having Brad adjust for the additional octane/fuel..

Brad again, would have a better way to explain.

Cool beans! Yeah I am unsure hence the speculation.. But it is worth the experiment so I will give it a go. It will be tune and vehicle independent but it may yield data to consider.

[StealBlueSho]

Race gas, if no other changes made, will likely be needed.

hmmm.. Ok. I should be happy with very low 12's on pump gas with meth... I don't want to ask Brad for a race fuel tune...

Be it my whacky opinion,  but you are on Brads meth tune.  I have been wondering .. since the tune is not keying off of STFT,  and seems to be more knock related what happens if you drop in 1:7 gallons of e85 : 97-octane ..

maybe im crazy .. but would not the drop of knock with 98 octcane\e11 help boost launch spark?

Not sure what you mean here? Yes, my widebands are in control of how much fuel is delivered while I am spraying meth. So when I spray meth, the WB's pick up the extra fueling which then cause the ECU to pull fuel thus my STFT's show fueling being pulled. Brad did attempt to tune the speed density tables on my tune but that lead to some interesting results. It clean the fuel trims up a lot, but it also caused other stuff to happen...

To be clear, I am not having knock issues. That 12.35 run I had an extremely small amount of KR towards the end of the run. Literally +1 KR for a split second which then the knock sensor started adding timing back. Its almost not enough to even talk about.

Brad can answer this better than I can, but I believe he has a global limiter on the amount of spark that can be added to my tube. I want to say it tops out at 28 degrees. How fast it adds spark can be adjusted and I am unsure if that is adjusted at the moment. Again Brad can answer this...

Helping with launch? I am not getting any KR on launch, and I almost NEVER have KR.. out of 6 runs at the track hot lapping most of them, I only had one moment of KR on the last run, again, it was not much at all...

The reason I am asking about race gas is vs pump gas getting into the 11's is the ability to turn up the tune the more. I am not knock limited at the moment on Brads tune. My car has yet to be knock limited on any tune but more fuel limited. With the meth this is mitigated by quite a bit as the purpose of meth is really to increase the effective octane with its cooling properties. I have talked a bit with Julio and his theory is that you tune your meth to prevent knock and the cooling is an added benefit.

I just see all the cars that have put down 11's are using race gas, and I am curious is 93 octane with meth has enough effective octane to crank up our cars to get to 11's...

As i'm sure you know, there's no magic formula that will get EVERY car into the 11's. Same car,same mods, same tuner . . . results always differ.
The question i would be asking myself (and brad) is if there was higher octane, where would there be opportunities in the tune?
Your spark #'s are @ MBT and beyond so not sure there's much opportunity there.
Boost #'s are also high but your turbos aren't maxxed out yet- from looking at your logs that's the only place i see you picking up power. Maybe throw in some race fuel and turn up boost til WGDC is 90% ?? Sure the air is gonna be cooking at that point but that's half the job of the meth-cool it back down just before it hits the combustion chamber.
And of course you're gonna continue to struggle with the traction issue so the extra boost would have to be ramped in real slow in the lower rpms.

I just don't know where else you'd go to pick up the power.

You are 100% correct. Brad and I talked about it. He gave me the whole technical picture about pressure in the cylinders etc.. If we up the boost we would need to back off on the spark... if up the spark we would need to back off the boost... again, he can explain it far better than myself...

In short, I am most likely maxxed out with the setup I have and the fuel I am running. Sure we could crank it up higher as there is room in the turbos but is it worth it? I dunno.. there have been those who hit 11's with stock turbos but only a couple.. with weight reduction.. race gas.. etc...

The whole point of this was is there anyone out there running 11's with pump gas LOL....

[Agentlongwood]

Others have posted much more nuanced and well thought out ideas... But I'm actually really curious to see what gains are to be had by getting some lighter wheels, and the fattest, stickiest tires you can cram under the car.  Would be interesting to see just how much (if any) room for improvement there is, on a build that is already on the fast side of the spectrum.

[Colorado-SHOBro]

idk with your setup i almost think you could bump up the boost some and sacrifice very little/no timing. even if you had to drop 2* across the board your already above MBT so you shouldn't really be losing any power there.

and generally speaking no, don't think anyone has gone 11s on stock turbos without race gas. don't know if you consider E85 "pump gas" but don't think that's been done either


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[StealBlueSho]

idk with your setup i almost think you could bump up the boost some and sacrifice very little/no timing. even if you had to drop 2* across the board your already above MBT so you shouldn't really be losing any power there.

and generally speaking no, don't think anyone has gone 11s on stock turbos without race gas. don't know if you consider E85 "pump gas" but don't think that's been done either


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How are you calculating MBT?

[Colorado-SHOBro]

idk with your setup i almost think you could bump up the boost some and sacrifice very little/no timing. even if you had to drop 2* across the board your already above MBT so you shouldn't really be losing any power there.

and generally speaking no, don't think anyone has gone 11s on stock turbos without race gas. don't know if you consider E85 "pump gas" but don't think that's been done either


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How are you calculating MBT?

not calculating exactly more generally speaking. i've discussed it briefly with Brad as well. but it seems 24-27 is the vague figure, which also coincides with other boosted platforms. a lot of factors go into determining MBT and of course it's always changing. i know load,afr,ve that the ecu uses to extrapolate it. loads of dyno testing would be the only real world way to verify. be nice to have brad come in and elaborate on specifically how it works with the SHO ECU.
anyhow, IIRC you were around 28* advance so if you could scale back to 26* but add 1/2lb of boost without knock i'd call it a win.

OR dump in some race gas,up the boost and leave timing alone.


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[J-Will]

SBS was there any discussion around your topic asking for feedback on upgraded turbos Vs CHRAs?

No, no response. I don't think anyone is running it.

That's a real bummer. But on the other side of the coin- if you're going to spend 1600, may as well throw in the additional 1/3 and get brand new turbos.

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