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Pre turbo injection?

Started by F150Eco, June 13, 2017, 12:49:11 PM

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F150Eco

I'll preface this by saying I already own an aem V2 meth kit, and have been running a 640ml/min nozzle, pre throttle body. This is in a '16 f150 with a 2.7.

Purely by happenstance I ran across some research about injecting w/m pre turbo. There are a lot of naysayers claiming it can erode the blades on the turbo, but I haven't found a single claim that this has ACTUALLY been a problem for anyone. However, I have found plenty of first hand accounts that they ran pre turbo injection for years with no ill effects.

I've also spoken to Rodney at alcohol injection systems a bit about this, and he says the same thing. In their experience, and from all of his customers' reports, pre turbo injection has never harmed anything.

What it does, reportedly, is cools the air charge at the source of the heat, and by cooling the air at the turbo, causes the charge to be denser, and effectively flow a few more #/min, moving the efficiency range a bit. Allowing the turbo to act like a larger one.

It seems the magic formula is a small nozzle to produce a fine fog pre turbo, then another, larger nozzle right after the intercooler. Most of what's injected pre turbo is completely flashed off, and doesn't give the benefits that most use methanol injection for by cooling the combustion chamber and adding octane. Hence the post intercooler nozzle.


Most of what I just wrote is regurgitated information, most that I understand pretty well, but some that I don't. I'm mostly just in a researching stage right now. If I'm going to have the resource of methanol injection, I'd like to reap maximum benefits from it.

I'm curious if any of you have any real world experience with pre turbo injection , especially on this platform. Real world, what will it offer me? Seems like these little turbos are probably being pushed pretty hard at 20+ psi.

Many thanks.

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J-Will

#1
Quote from: mwemaxxowner on June 13, 2017, 12:49:11 PM
I've also spoken to Rodney at alcohol injection systems a bit about this, and he says the same thing. In their experience, and from all of his customers' reports, pre turbo injection has never harmed anything.

Really, because the Devil's Own website states very clearly that they do not recommend this:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/content/20-where-to-locate-your-alcohol-water-injection-nozzle

Sure there is an 'if'
2014 Factory Order SHO (non pp) Deep Impact Blue
Gearhead Automotive Performance Tune
3-bar
SP-542 plugs w/ GH gap

F150Eco

#2
Rodney from prometh.

Yes, there are many sources that regurgitate the information that this can erode the vanes in the turbo. Yet every firsthand account I've found says everything was peachy. And it's a good point about the draw through carbs used with turbos sucking gasoline though a turbo.

Also a thread on the subject on a different vehicle. Where he and others participated.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465052

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SHOdded

I guess you will have to route the meth in a way that it doesn't vaporize BEFORE it reaches the turbos, as it has a relatively low boiling point.

Also, it is rare that these turbos are pushed to 20+ psi except on spikes.  Most of them run at or below 18psi ongoing, to stay within the efficiency envelope.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

F150Eco

#4
Perhaps my turbos are different. 2.7s run a but more boost than 3.5s. In the truck world anyway.  It will hold 20 or better. It would most likely be a 50/50 mix, but yes they inject right in front of the turbo. And I believe they say only inject with a nozzle pointing directly into the turbo, not perpendicularly. That alone will make it challenging or impossible here. I'm working on getting some clarification on that. Part of what I was hoping to discover here. Haha

Another interesting post, and on a 3.5. I wish he had delved into it further.

https://www.f150forum.com/f38/ecoboost-water-methanol-meth-injection-results-282524/

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F150Eco

I may well find out it's not worth it, not possible, or just not feasible for me. But it's an interesting topic that I'm quite curious about.

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lamrith

My concern, would be adding more/any fluid before the intercooler.  It will compound the issue with the IC's collecting fluid and then burping it into the engine.  F150's have problems with condensation already, I have seen people here talking about SHO's running poorly due to junk in the IC and needing to clean it out.  Might be atomized post turbo, but might be condensating before it exits the IC.

Interesting idea for sure though.  Innovation often bucks traditional thought on things...
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago w/ 275/40-20 GMAX AS-05.

F150Eco

Quote from: lamrith on June 13, 2017, 03:02:43 PM
My concern, would be adding more/any fluid before the intercooler.  It will compound the issue with the IC's collecting fluid and then burping it into the engine.  F150's have problems with condensation already, I have seen people here talking about SHO's running poorly due to junk in the IC and needing to clean it out.  Might be atomized post turbo, but might be condensating before it exits the IC.

Interesting idea for sure though.  Innovation often bucks traditional thought on things...
I've thought about that. The '15+ intercooler redesign draws air from the very bottom of the intercooler to minimize pooling. The pre 15 trucks had a considerable gap between the cac outlet pipe and the bottom of the intercooler. That's also why you use a very small nozzle. Especially if you use almost 100% meth (according to my research thus far) they say it has flashed off enough prior to the cac that this doesn't happen.

However, that is still a concern and a good point, and one of the questions I have. Most of the setups I read were with a 1gph or smaller nozzle pre turbo, and some even mentioned a "fogger" nozzle. That's not something I know much about though.

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SilvererSHO

Quote from: SHOdded on June 13, 2017, 02:19:28 PM
I guess you will have to route the meth in a way that it doesn't vaporize BEFORE it reaches the turbos, as it has a relatively low boiling point.

Also, it is rare that these turbos are pushed to 20+ psi except on spikes.  Most of them run at or below 18psi ongoing, to stay within the efficiency envelope.


Why would you be worried about it vaporizing before the turbos???
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

SilvererSHO

What about backfiring into the intake system with the whole system loaded up with methanol?  When spraying after the intercooler it's just a short leg of the intake that's loaded up.
All Silver(er)SHO.  2012, every option with PP running new Firehawk Indy 500's.

SHOdded

Quote from: SilvererSHO on June 13, 2017, 05:37:53 PM
Why would you be worried about it vaporizing before the turbos???
I meant I don't want it boiling in the lines leading to the injection site.  If it has already absorbed that much energy/heat prior to meeting the airstream that the turbo receives, it wouldn't make for much of a cooling charge.  Atomization vs vaporization.  That was my thought anyway.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

F150Eco

The idea is to inject just inches before the turbo. It flashes as it passes through, drawing heat from the air as it does so, and at the same time "thickening" the air. The main benefit for me would be the lowered charge temps, but another benefit is it allows the charger to flow more lb/min. Shifting the efficiency range. How much I have no idea. I've read reports of 3ish psi more.

Some have actually found that this cools the air so much that the cac actually heats it up to ambient. Some race cars inject meth pre turbo and it's so effective they are able to eliminate the cac. Not that I'm going to do that.

As to compressing the mixture and it exploding, I don't think that's much of a concern at a 70/30 mix or weaker. I would likely try 50/50. Some actually run two systems, and inject pure h2o into the turbo and meth post turbo. In theory pure h2o is harder on the compressor wheel, but I have yet to find a firsthand account of pre turbo injection long term causing any noticeable erosion.

I really think the most likely "problem" would only be condensing out moisture in the intercooler. I think it you get the mix and the flow right, it's all flashed off enough that doesn't happen. But again, most of this is just based on my brief discussion with Rodney at prometh, some research that I've googled up, and some forum threads I've read. One of which Rodney participated in.

It's my understanding that he's pretty sharp on methanol/water injection across a wide range of applications.

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TopherSho

The only problem which is more of a concern is that in moist, damp and low temp conditions you will not fully vaporize.   I'm less concerned about the alcohol and more concerned about the PH of the water doing damage over time to various seals. 

Additionally you will be adding much cooler air to the CaC which means more water moisture in the chamber on or near the plugs.  If there are larger droplets of water they will flash of the tip of the plug and I'm *my head* leave deposits ..

Or I am crazy
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

F150Eco

You think atmospheric conditions will affect what goes on right there at the turbo that much?

I don't know if it has any effect on the pH level, but it has always been stressed to me that it's of the utmost importance to use only true distilled water with injection. Which is a practice I follow. I don't know if that has a neutral pH or not.

I suppose if it was true preturbo injectors could be turned off through the winter.

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TopherSho

Not a expert, but here in Oregon we spend half the year sub 75 and have very moist conditions.   In a pre turbo injection setup I think I'd be bathing the inlet if I had it turn on too high.   
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction