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14-psi tune update .. followup.

Started by TopherSho, June 09, 2017, 02:24:37 PM

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TopherSho

To close several loops on my tune testing with high/low RPM launches,  14,14.5 and 15 pound boost levels i have final results for 14-pound testing.

With 14 pounds set and the data log showing 14.25 pounds on average with boost spikes,  I can say for my car and mod level 14 pounds is even faster than expected.

to re-cap: I tested 15 pounds, 14.5 pounds and now 14 pounds with ::
starting IAT2 of 90f or less at start of run
170 t-stat
170 t-stat adjust in tune
3-bar
.28 gapped plugs
92-pump gas
same part of road,  very near same weather and DA conditions.

I did a HIGH RPM-LAUNCH (2300rpm) datalog yesterday when the temps and humidity were similar to previous tests on my test road and have a new best time to 100mph and 105mph.   At the time of the run using the datalog to calculate I found I ran 11.33 seconds to 100mph and 12.57 seconds to 105mph which is 110 millisecond better to 0-100mph than the previous 14.5 pound tune from AJP.   This is outstanding for the mods,  and even better considering I had +1 knock at launch.    Were it not for the knock at launch I think the 0-70 would be better and would have a decent impact on reducing the time to 105 mph further. 

So for those with similar SHO setups.  you might consider a 14-pound test tune.  I am seeing in the last two runs spark hitting 21-peak which is kind of amazing, and very high spark averages for my 2010 on the whole run due to less heat (in my head its less turbo heat/pressure, AJP comment as needed)..

I do think though were right at the limit with launching and spark for my platform. The launch and immediate +1 knock smacks of a gas issue or just a HINT too aggressive on spark in the super low rpm band. (I need to spike the gas and retest..) 

But overall the experiments have pretty been damn good.  shes in the fastest from she can be with the current fuel\hardware.   

run.log.14.psi.csv is the run datalog for livelink.
Audit.6.9.2017.14psi.tune.chevron92.ZIP is for opening to audit in excel.

THANK YOU AJP!
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

TopherSho

#1
One thing of note is the power is a lot less peaky now so the 'feel' of driving it is less exciting.   With the 15 pound tune stomping it threw you into the seat with the boost spike and made passengers squeak in surprise. 14-lbs is much .. 'calmer' .. :(    #1stworldproblems

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

StealBlueSho

Fantastic research! Thanks for all the data!

I have found with the MULTIPLE tuners and tunes that I have come to a very similar conclusion. It seems to me that right around 14psi is where these motors with the stock turbos really do well with good smack of timing. At least from a datalog standpoint...

I have also noted that the 15psi tunes really slam you back into the seat with the instant torque HOWEVER, that does not translate into faster times which you have noted as well...

Working with Brad now on my meth tune and curiously, I think the end results will be a lower boosted tune with more timing... I am at a hair over 15psi with 20psi spikes and 26 or so degrees of timing.. which is causing all kinda of traction problems..

Seems to give credence to the tuners that go lower on boost and higher on timing.

TopherSho

Quote from: StealBlueSho on June 09, 2017, 02:54:09 PM
Fantastic research! Thanks for all the data!

I have found with the MULTIPLE tuners and tunes that I have come to a very similar conclusion. It seems to me that right around 14psi is where these motors with the stock turbos really do well with good smack of timing. At least from a datalog standpoint...

I have also noted that the 15psi tunes really slam you back into the seat with the instant torque HOWEVER, that does not translate into faster times which you have noted as well...

Working with Brad now on my meth tune and curiously, I think the end results will be a lower boosted tune with more timing... I am at a hair over 15psi with 20psi spikes and 26 or so degrees of timing.. which is causing all kinda of traction problems..

Seems to give credence to the tuners that go lower on boost and higher on timing.

Thank you!  And I 100% agree after testing like crazy it all lines up..   Now I will wait for AJP to tell me "Told ya so ;)" and get a static meth kit.
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FiveLeeter918

So you're saying that 14 psi at 20 degrees is the sweet spot? I'm 16 psi and 16 degrees right now.
- Lee
Technical Sales, Ortiz Tuning and Performance
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TopherSho

Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on July 07, 2017, 03:34:57 PM
So you're saying that 14 psi at 20 degrees is the sweet spot? I'm 16 psi and 16 degrees right now.

I will depend on the mods in place,.   With meth/water higher boost *may* be of benefit since you will be at a lower temp and higher octane.  However in my testing on track and off track i found for my 2010 with my limited mods 14psi::

Has a slightly slower 0-60
Has a way better 0-100
Has a marginally better 1/4 mile.
Has way better passing characteristics on the highway

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

Colorado-SHOBro

Quote from: TopherSho on July 07, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on July 07, 2017, 03:34:57 PM
So you're saying that 14 psi at 20 degrees is the sweet spot? I'm 16 psi and 16 degrees right now.

I will depend on the mods in place,.   With meth/water higher boost *may* be of benefit since you will be at a lower temp and higher octane.  However in my testing on track and off track i found for my 2010 with my limited mods 14psi::

Has a slightly slower 0-60
Has a way better 0-100
Has a marginally better 1/4 mile.
Has way better passing characteristics on the highway
By all means run the tune that feels best as a DD. However i feel it's hard to equate your fastest 0-60 or 0-100 times to your best 1/4 mile times. In that scenario you're comparing a time vs speed(0-100mph) measurement to a time vs distance measurement (1/4 mile).
A higher HP tune(low boost with higher timing) will get you up to speed faster and might net you better trap SPEEDS while a higher TQ tune (higher boost with lower timing) will move you a 1320' distance in less time.
If i remember right your last track outing had many changing variables. aka re-writing tunes frequently and not letting OAR get all the way settled before your passes among other things. so i'd say it's really hard to say which tune is going to net you the quickest ET unless numerous runs are taken in the most empirical fashion. even then results might vary from time to time.
But in the end you're doing right by yourself and the community by using the tune that feels best to you and sharing all the data and observations.

11' SHO Tuxedo Metallic black-non PP | Highly sophisticated high altitude custom AJP Turbo E30 3Bar tune w/Wastegate mod | Cat'd ceramic PPE downpipes |170 stat| SP542 plugs .028 | PP trans cooler | H&R springs | RX catch can

12.8@108 @ 6,000ft DA.

lamrith

Quote from: TopherSho on July 07, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on July 07, 2017, 03:34:57 PM
So you're saying that 14 psi at 20 degrees is the sweet spot? I'm 16 psi and 16 degrees right now.

I will depend on the mods in place,.   With meth/water higher boost *may* be of benefit since you will be at a lower temp and higher octane.  However in my testing on track and off track i found for my 2010 with my limited mods 14psi::

Has a slightly slower 0-60
Has a way better 0-100
Has a marginally better 1/4 mile.
Has way better passing characteristics on the highway
Just a theory I am pulling out of somewhere dark.....

That 14psi netted better everything but 0-60.  It could very well be the stronger and better tune.  The 0-60 could be slower because the car is loosing traction, or not able to put all the power down to the pavement..?  The 0-100 being faster backs this up a bit as once she gets rolling the extra power is making the car accelerate faster.
'13 Sho PP, SCT x4, AJP 92-Octane rev6 (14psi&20spark) NGK 6510, 3Bar, K&N CAI, PPE Catted DP, Dynomax Axleback, 20*9.5 Voxx Lago w/ 275/40-20 GMAX AS-05.

TopherSho

Quote from: Colorado-SHOBro on July 08, 2017, 11:26:06 AM
By all means run the tune that feels best as a DD. However i feel it's hard to equate your fastest 0-60 or 0-100 times to your best 1/4 mile times. In that scenario you're comparing a time vs speed(0-100mph) measurement to a time vs distance measurement (1/4 mile).
A higher HP tune(low boost with higher timing) will get you up to speed faster and might net you better trap SPEEDS while a higher TQ tune (higher boost with lower timing) will move you a 1320' distance in less time.
If i remember right your last track outing had many changing variables. aka re-writing tunes frequently and not letting OAR get all the way settled before your passes among other things. so i'd say it's really hard to say which tune is going to net you the quickest ET unless numerous runs are taken in the most empirical fashion. even then results might vary from time to time.
But in the end you're doing right by yourself and the community by using the tune that feels best to you and sharing all the data and observations.

I do agree the extra TQ does make some sort of difference.  my 0-60 is a tiny bit slower.. and around town it feel less ''squirrely'' and ''rompy'' if you goose it on 14 pounds 

But after all the datalogs data logs it is clear that the 0-100 is much better on 14 pounds *in my build*.  others (like Brad) call it more efficient, and i think its all about the heat.. pushing the OEM turbos to 15 pounds felt great around town,  but under hard WoT it dropped the 0-100,   i think its temp related when pushed hard for longer periods of time with little cooldown time.

Since we all hit 100 in the 1/4 it is a gain on times to have my 0-100 drop as much as it did even with the light loss of 0-60..

everybody's car will be different though.  Now that i am on METH (after today) it may be time to revisit Brads 15 pound tune :) and test again. 
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

TopherSho

Quote from: lamrith on July 08, 2017, 12:00:00 PM
Quote from: TopherSho on July 07, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: FiveLeeter918 on July 07, 2017, 03:34:57 PM
So you're saying that 14 psi at 20 degrees is the sweet spot? I'm 16 psi and 16 degrees right now.

I will depend on the mods in place,.   With meth/water higher boost *may* be of benefit since you will be at a lower temp and higher octane.  However in my testing on track and off track i found for my 2010 with my limited mods 14psi::

Has a slightly slower 0-60
Has a way better 0-100
Has a marginally better 1/4 mile.
Has way better passing characteristics on the highway
Just a theory I am pulling out of somewhere dark.....

That 14psi netted better everything but 0-60.  It could very well be the stronger and better tune.  The 0-60 could be slower because the car is loosing traction, or not able to put all the power down to the pavement..?  The 0-100 being faster backs this up a bit as once she gets rolling the extra power is making the car accelerate faster.

Na, no traction issues so far.  I the drop in 0-60 is a lower boost spike, and lower boost levels on the 1-2 shift.  But it makes it up with less heat in the 2nd gear pull and most of the third gear pull.  After 3rd the heat is climbing on the oem CaC and OEM turbos ..
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

FoMoCoSHO

Looking at your multi vs my most recent it looks like I need about 3.41ish/s to get through third and you are around 5.6ish/s.

Maybe someone with better SCT skills can check my math? I measured from the first uptick after the shift to third and the highest rpm before rpms dropped up top.

IIRC my time dropped from 3.76ish going from 15-15.5 from the last time I compared IIRC.

Apples to plums comparison cause of the E45, big spark, gearing, etc but an interesting comparison and I know how you like data, lol. Also might give you an idea what to expect with meth as SBS is at very similar spark and boost.

Hopefully SBS will check his latest logs and post his findings...



avidmotion

Sp542@.028, windstorm CAI, MSD coils, AO GH TUNE, GH intercooler, All Amsoil, General Gmax-rs summer tires, +PP, PP PADS,EDC rotors, Colinite 476s wax, used PPE DPs, Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete with custom X pipe, Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts|, 3 bar, stock thermostat,  TRACY LEWIS DESIGNED Team RXP, the Original oil separator.

TopherSho

sigh.. I cant get under 13.2 now.  Tune is the same as the ''last best of 12.5x to 105 mph'' ..  yet now I run 13.2,  all i can think is the heat is the issue and reducing air density even with 15/85 spray.

I had hopped water and tiny bit of meth would push me over but at this time i am giving up on 12's ..
2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction

SHOwoosh

Quote from: TopherSho on July 15, 2017, 11:38:46 PM
sigh.. I cant get under 13.2 now.  Tune is the same as the ''last best of 12.5x to 105 mph'' ..  yet now I run 13.2,  all i can think is the heat is the issue and reducing air density even with 15/85 spray.

I had hopped water and tiny bit of meth would push me over but at this time i am giving up on 12's ..

I think what you're finding is that time to speed doesn't equal time to distance. As Col-SHOBro pointed out there is quite a difference between the two especially when comparing track times to street logs. I have numerous strip passes where I blew the launch but ran a faster trap speed than quicker runs with slower speeds. Even changing how you stage in the lights could make a tenth+ difference in the time let alone boost at launch, track prep, weather etc. Try to keep detailed info about your track passes and try changing things one at a time until you figure out what works best for your car. For my quickest ET's I shallow stage and brake boost until I feel the brakes just starting to lose the fight against the torque then mash the throttle n go.
2011 SHO PP fully loaded.

Uleashed 93 3bar. Stock everything else. Best run 12.88

Now AJP 3bar still all stock otherwise. Times to come

TopherSho

Yeah you may be right.  But I can't help but think 100 and 105 times even in testing are critical.  Everyone here runs 100 in the 1/4 so i my head the best 100 time off track would be equally as good on the track??

At this point I will take any advise. 

I do have to be carefully at launch I have found I can brake boost to 3300 rpm.. and then launch it is scary as ####.. the wheel hop is SO BAD it disengages the front drive and only powers the back enough to get off the track.  (No error codes) ..

I plan on racing in the furnace again (PIR) to test the effectiveness of the 15/85 spray .. I have a feeling water is not my soultion and I wasted time and money ..

I just do not know why she won't run a 12 of any kind..

2010 non-pp, 98k miles, 3-bar,  .026 plugs, SNOW-KIT STG1, AJPTurbu tune#35, 15.5+psi
Best 0-60 public road 4.35s
Best 1/4 of 12.61 no DA correction