PIR race day #2, trying again to get into a 12..

[Brucelinc]

Ok,  I am far from a professional drag racer but I have run a good many times in the past couple of years.   I have run in much higher DA than I am seeing here and also in hotter temps and humidity.

Other than the first time I was ever on the track, my MKS was consistently in the 12.6. - 12.8 range.  I always removed the engine cover but NEVER the bottom aero-shield.  I typically brake torqued to around 1800 and probably for no longer than around 3 seconds.  I usually pulled the hood release at the turn around and drove back to the pits with it cracked open.

I can't explain the results wildly fluctuating results Tophersho is experiencing but never found heat to make as much difference as he is seeing.

[StealBlueSho]

He was trying different stuff... brake boosting at different RPMs, no brake boosting, switching tunes..

Explains the wild variations..

[lamrith]

Well log #4 just a quick skim.  I can't reall offer any solution and am new at this myself but a few things caught my attention..
Your IAT never got under 143*, so that will kill spark from what AJP has told us, end of run it was over 150.
You started getting KR at top of 2nd and carried thru rest of the run, topping out @ 3.
I did the math and you 0-60 was 6.19sec.  Were you spinning tires?  was TC off, or was it kicking in?  This is slow 0-60 given your mods and dyno results, almost a second slower than the SHO is rated at in stock trim which makes me wonder about traction or nannies being involved.

Going to skim the 1st run logs now.

There is no KR in any of his runs... the NEGATIVE NUMBERS ARE GOOD.. it means it trying to add more spark... POSITIVE NUMBERS ARE BAD... that means the knock sensor is pulling timing since its picking up knock conditions...

yeah i saw that.. then i saw the spark advance was WAY lower than i am used to.  in my best runs on datalogs it held 15.x and 16.x AVERAGE from start to end of runs.  this is when i also found launching low was better for *this* specific car.

i clearly did not do enough research on this platform.    i am going to need spray if i ever plan on summer drag racing. 

pisses me off.

ok signing off ..  going to coast.  i'm getting to worked up and need to check myself

i will check back and see if anyone thinks removing the splash shield is stupid ..

Learning curve sometimes is all.  Some compounding issues lastnight is all.  It does make for a frustrating evening.  I like your solution to hit the coast, and enjoy the weekend!!

My car did not come with the splash shield, once my car is up to temp standing or moving it is sitting in the 130*+ range whether moving or not.  So you numbers are not outside the norm.  Ford did us no favors with how they layed-out out the AC/HE/Radiator.  The HE should really be out in front of the other two not between them.

Also realize even with temp issues, we get to enjoy our cars year round.  GIven where we live, similar performing summer cars cannot do that 7-8months a year!

[AJP turbo]

I only was able to skim a log last night. But Steal blue Sho has a solid grasp on reading logs and I generally agree with his assessments.

I have never seen IAT2's as hot as yours...Over 170 and even at the start of the run I think it was near 150.

I saw ambient at 104? Was it really that hot?...I don't know much about DA's but in a stock tune the IAT compensations will start to pull about 1 degree of spark for every 10 degrees over 100 for IAT2 so at 175 the ECU will pull 7.5 degrees of spark as a pre-emptive measure to prevent preignition and so the knock sensors don't have to pull the spark....Hot IAT's alone don't make KR but it will if the compensations aren't there.

My IAT comps are a little more aggressive at high temps than stock..So that's also why you saw the knock sensors adding spark...The comps pull a little more spark out then the knock sensors are happy and add it back it...I'd rather do that than the opposite..When the knock sensors pull then tend to be more forceful.

And like SBS mentioned the OAR hadn't settled so that's the other reason the knock sensors were adding but they probably weren't adding enough to get you back to normal spark levels because there are rate limits at how quickly the spark gets added in and how much so a 1/4 mile blast may only be long enough to add a few degrees during the run.

ANd the OAR value get's translated to a multiplier then that is applied to a table  which is how the spark is scaled based on fuel octane.

So the heat from IAT's and ambient not allowing the motor to cool just made for a hot motor....It's why meth and E85 are so effective...The E85 mix just will handle spark better even when hot and the meth does both, handles the spark when hot due to octane increase and cools the charge also which will command more spark from the ECU due to less IAT comps.

Jim bell from Kenne bell superchargers has some good literature on the effects of spark timing and power..I could see you easily being 50 hp or more down from the spark you were at.

Although give the power you made on a mustang dyno I still would've guessed a little better...Even when you ran in cooler temps I thought you would've been easily in the 12's.....Glockcoma's car only has a 2 bar tune from me and ran high 12's but I don't know the conditions.

There aren't really too many ways to manipulate power....Boost and spark....You are running typical boost and better than average spark so the power is there when the spark is there.

And I think it's always better to brake boost..If you can get the 60' time down then ET will come down...I know you spent some time testing but I wonder somehow if things got skewed and different conditions made it not apples to apples

You were measuring speed being lower at the 1/4 in your logs I think and your 0-60mph was faster though which I think makes sense

When you drag race often you will see when the 60' times improve and your 1/4 mile ET is better but  your trap speed is often lower than runs  than runs that had a slower ET

Basically you get down the track faster so the car doesn't have time to hit higher speeds.

[TopherSho]

Sigh..

Yeah the temp was 95+ according to the track.. but my dash showed 101 in the lanes.

With the established rev-15 tune I tried all three launches. No-boost, light boost and tried high but missed it.

No boost was best on that tune at that time.  I know that 60' is holy grail but every time I launch hard my times suffer ..

I did myself no favors switching tunes, but the night was shot :p  and I wanted to tinker since serious racing was out the window.

As too the iat2 temp.. where is the sensor?  I removed the front rubber hood  strips both upper lower and rear in a attempt to get more air flow.. am I screwing myself with air flow?  I can get 170f in my driveway on iat2

Swapping back to rev-11 the 'magic' tune e dropped 500ms off the time in the last race I forgot to log..

The 1st three were all revision 15.. so it just sucked and was hot

Thinking back to the mustang dyno, he tried 2 times in 5th to make a run.. so it may be another example of my car hating heat..

I'm not sure what to do now..  ....  Meth was never a consideration.  Not cash ready for it.  I had searched and read so many posts on getting high 12's on just a tune and plugs with a 3 bar for better tuning... Like a lot of people thought this was a slam dunk .. but that is 'so me' to find the exception to the rule :p.

I can't pump my own gas, so blends are a super big pain, so that leaves meth.

Sigh.  I did not want to do meth

[TopherSho]

OK. Back to sand castles..

[StealBlueSho]

Sigh..

Yeah the temp was 95+ according to the track.. but my dash showed 101 in the lanes.

With the established rev-15 tune I tried all three launches. No-boost, light boost and tried high but missed it.

No boost was best on that tune at that time.  I know that 60' is holy grail but every time I launch hard my times suffer ..

I did myself no favors switching tunes, but the night was shot :p  and I wanted to tinker since serious racing was out the window.

As too the iat2 temp.. where is the sensor?  I removed the front rubber hood  strips both upper lower and rear in a attempt to get more air flow.. am I screwing myself with air flow?  I can get 170f in my driveway on iat2

Swapping back to rev-11 the 'magic' tune e dropped 500ms off the time in the last race I forgot to log..

The 1st three were all revision 15.. so it just sucked and was hot

Thinking back to the mustang dyno, he tried 2 times in 5th to make a run.. so it may be another example of my car hating heat..

I'm not sure what to do now..  ....  Meth was never a consideration.  Not cash ready for it.  I had searched and read so many posts on getting high 12's on just a tune and plugs with a 3 bar for better tuning... Like a lot of people thought this was a slam dunk .. but that is 'so me' to find the exception to the rule :p.

I can't pump my own gas, so blends are a super big pain, so that leaves meth.

Sigh.  I did not want to do meth

No one WANTS to do meth...but peer pressure and all...

The IAT2 sensor is part of the 3BAR sensor on top of the intake manifold...

[lamrith]

Sigh..

Yeah the temp was 95+ according to the track.. but my dash showed 101 in the lanes.

With the established rev-15 tune I tried all three launches. No-boost, light boost and tried high but missed it.

No boost was best on that tune at that time.  I know that 60' is holy grail but every time I launch hard my times suffer ..

I did myself no favors switching tunes, but the night was shot   and I wanted to tinker since serious racing was out the window.

As too the iat2 temp.. where is the sensor?  I removed the front rubber hood  strips both upper lower and rear in a attempt to get more air flow.. am I screwing myself with air flow?  I can get 170f in my driveway on iat2

Swapping back to rev-11 the 'magic' tune e dropped 500ms off the time in the last race I forgot to log..

The 1st three were all revision 15.. so it just sucked and was hot

Thinking back to the mustang dyno, he tried 2 times in 5th to make a run.. so it may be another example of my car hating heat..

I'm not sure what to do now..  ....  Meth was never a consideration.  Not cash ready for it.  I had searched and read so many posts on getting high 12's on just a tune and plugs with a 3 bar for better tuning... Like a lot of people thought this was a slam dunk .. but that is 'so me' to find the exception to the rule :p.

I can't pump my own gas, so blends are a super big pain, so that leaves meth.

Sigh.  I did not want to do meth

I completely understand your frustration and would probably be similar.

Your IAT seem to fall inline with what I see from my car in these warmer temps, driving around town I see 130-150*.

Honestly, with temps around 90, evening racing PIR was just about the worst place for a car like ours.  PIR is acres of black pavement with zero shade. Warm Ambient temps, nonstop all day sun, pavement temp I am betting was in excess of 140*.  For example it is only 82* in Tacoma today, but my driveway is @ 136.3*.  Hot car after driving to track means it is probably already over 100* IAT.  Then it sits over 140* pavement as well as up against 180*+ radiator so the heatsoak is in full form.  Now add WOT runs, it is just going to keep climbing.  Popped hood alone will just not help as the car has pavement radiating 140* up form underneath.  I don't even think having a fan running on it would help, given the temps involved and the lack off offset to bring them down.  Just lot of temp issues stacking up that hurt you.
Changing the tune (I understand why you did it) just compounded it.  I am betting if you had left the tune alone the times would have dropped as temps did in the evening.

I am debating the E85 vs Meth thing myself.  While I can pump my own fuel, there is no E85 available locally.  Meth I worry about running out of during a run.  That said I do not think you have to have it to run 12's, just need to have conditions better suited to our cars.

Has anyone looked at installing something like a Killer Chiller in a SHO?

[FoMoCoSHO]

Hey topher, do your stations have corn and 93 on the same pump? If so I don't see why pumping gas would be difficult for any attendant as long as you tell them how much to put in. I know there are those with serious ocd about their blend but my goal is to get close, fuel trims can handle the rest.

[AJP turbo]

I know there are those with serious ocd about their blend but my goal is to get close

Hhmm i wonder who....ive never understood why addicts and people with mental conditions are unable to identify their problems lol

[StealBlueSho]

^^^^^Hahahahaha

[FoMoCoSHO]

I know there are those with serious ocd about their blend but my goal is to get close

Hhmm i wonder who....ive never understood why addicts and people with mental conditions are unable to identify their problems lol

Says the power pimp.....

[Josephm]

Did you have your hood popped in the staging lanes?

Do you have the "Engine Cover / Heat blanket" still in place?

[TopherSho]

Ok,  I am far from a professional drag racer but I have run a good many times in the past couple of years.   I have run in much higher DA than I am seeing here and also in hotter temps and humidity.

Other than the first time I was ever on the track, my MKS was consistently in the 12.6. - 12.8 range.  I always removed the engine cover but NEVER the bottom aero-shield.  I typically brake torqued to around 1800 and probably for no longer than around 3 seconds.  I usually pulled the hood release at the turn around and drove back to the pits with it cracked open.

I can't explain the results wildly fluctuating results Tophersho is experiencing but never found heat to make as much difference as he is seeing.

i also pop the hood accross the double XX's..

[TopherSho]

Hey topher, do your stations have corn and 93 on the same pump? If so I don't see why pumping gas would be difficult for any attendant as long as you tell them how much to put in. I know there are those with serious ocd about their blend but my goal is to get close, fuel trims can handle the rest.

/shimering going way back in time noises/
I bought .. for 3k$  a 45k mile buick rieviera supercharged.  it was a glorious pimp-mobile.  with a smaller pully and 92 gas i had no issues pulling hard against mustangs.

then one bright sunny day i pulled into a reputable local gas station. put 20$ of 92 in it.

pulled out.
merged onto freeway
floored it
it exploded... gas station still in sight.  parts on the road kind of explosion..
knew the issue immediately
walked back to the station.  my 20$ still on the meter.
87 octane selected.

cant trust then .. ever again.

plus.. teaching the wife how to blend ?  nope..  its going to be meth or not getting 12's ..