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Misfire That I cannot seem to Fix. I TRIED! Also lunging RPMs.

Started by plymouth383, May 23, 2017, 02:54:11 PM

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plymouth383

attached are some logs.

WOT 2 was an original file back in 2015 for tuning

Misfire afternoon feb 7 was the first of datalogs

3-11-17 has a few misfire feels but really shows the lunging with the throttle angle constantly moving even with a pretty steady foot on the pedal

3-12-17 has a few misfires.

I am going to try and log in the morning first thing. I will try and add all the datapoints like I had in the WOT 2 file as well as a few other ones if I can find them like the desired VS actual Turbine speed. I am missing a little consistency in my datapoints but over the next couple of days I will log all possible points and try to create a timeline of exactly when they are happening. It has been going on for about 6 months and has not changed its behavior, just comes and goes and happens randomly.

Figured maybe this might give someone an AH HA moment. I appreciate all the input thus far. I can only narrow down the the PCM or the Transmission. you can watch the logs and see a correlation with RPM, Throttle angle actual, load, and boost. I just cannot figure which one is acting on what parameter. What is it seeing that it is commanding the throttle blade open more or less while having a steady foot on the flat roads around here. I was watching the values on the SCT X4 today and as I held the right foot right at a set voltage on the pedal sensor you could watch the throttle actual go up 2-4 degrees, then the boost would change, then the load value would change, and sometimes the spark advance would go up or down a few degrees. I just do not know what is causing what. This is mostly for the lunging but The misfire feel does show some random numbers as well.

The only transmission thing I can think of is when the misfire is occuring there is not much acceleration happening. Once you press the pedal further it takes a second or two and then downshifts quickly and takes off. It only does this hang up when its misfiring. other times it behaves normal. I keep thinking it has something to do with the load calculation but cannot justify what would be causing this. Could the Crank sensor be off a little? Then again all I can think of is why no codes. It is frustrating because I hate throwing parts at it.

tonight I went ahead and pulled the cowl and disconnected the PCM. The connections were clean and dry. Just to verify I used some Electronic cleaner and then blew the connections dry. I reassembled then cleaned every ground and connection. Went for a test drive and still having the same issues.

I am going to try and changed the trans fluid tomorrow and see if at least anything changes. if it feels different or gets better maybe we are on to something.


pmezo33

Quote from: plymouth383 on May 23, 2017, 10:28:57 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 23, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: plymouth383 on May 23, 2017, 06:51:23 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 23, 2017, 06:16:20 PM
I'd think torque converter with the jumping rpm's, but you wouldn't be getting misfires like you are.  Which cylinders are misfiring?  Always the same ones?  Any other codes besides the misfire codes?

The problem is there are absolutely no codes. None for misfire or anything. I feel the misfire and hesitation as well as lunging

No codes when it's misfiring?  Are you 100% sure that it's actually misfiring?  Is that even possible? 

No engine codes and surging rpm's, plus the fact that you've done plugs/coils/injectors, makes me think you've got a transmission problem here.

I may be leaning towards that. It does happen to feel like it does not want to downshift sometimes. but really nothing to extreme feeling other then the lunging and what feels like a misfire.

A torque converter that is slipping kind of feels a bit like a misfire.  When mine started to go, i noticed it while cruising at low rpm's on the highway and when accelerating through the gears at lower RPM's.  RPM's would fluctuate up and and down instead of a smooth acceleration.  The car would hesitate similar to a car not firing on all cylinders.

You know how to drive a manual transmission?  Start a manual car from a dead stop in second or third gear instead of first and feel the car struggle to accelerate.  That's what a bad torque converter feels like.  The TC seems to be a real weak spot with these transmissions. 

If you're not getting misfire codes, it's not misfiring. 

AJP turbo

I agree with pmezeo that it sounds like a torque converter....low rpm with a load on it is tough on converters because at high commanded torque levels the ecu is commanding the converter to lock or at least have less slip in the clutches but at low speeds you are below the stall speed and i think that is just a tough condition for the converter to be in and if the conveter is not healthy then symptoms may show themselves
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

plymouth383

Quote from: pmezo33 on May 23, 2017, 11:57:14 PM
Quote from: plymouth383 on May 23, 2017, 10:28:57 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 23, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: plymouth383 on May 23, 2017, 06:51:23 PM
Quote from: pmezo33 on May 23, 2017, 06:16:20 PM
I'd think torque converter with the jumping rpm's, but you wouldn't be getting misfires like you are.  Which cylinders are misfiring?  Always the same ones?  Any other codes besides the misfire codes?

The problem is there are absolutely no codes. None for misfire or anything. I feel the misfire and hesitation as well as lunging

No codes when it's misfiring?  Are you 100% sure that it's actually misfiring?  Is that even possible? 

No engine codes and surging rpm's, plus the fact that you've done plugs/coils/injectors, makes me think you've got a transmission problem here.

I may be leaning towards that. It does happen to feel like it does not want to downshift sometimes. but really nothing to extreme feeling other then the lunging and what feels like a misfire.

A torque converter that is slipping kind of feels a bit like a misfire.  When mine started to go, i noticed it while cruising at low rpm's on the highway and when accelerating through the gears at lower RPM's.  RPM's would fluctuate up and and down instead of a smooth acceleration.  The car would hesitate similar to a car not firing on all cylinders.

You know how to drive a manual transmission?  Start a manual car from a dead stop in second or third gear instead of first and feel the car struggle to accelerate.  That's what a bad torque converter feels like.  The TC seems to be a real weak spot with these transmissions. 

If you're not getting misfire codes, it's not misfiring.

Makes sense. I can now relate to how this might behave then. I have driven many Manual cars and i can say it does feel like you started in a higher then required gear, then once the parameters are met it lets loose and takes off.


plymouth383

so attached is a picture of a quick log this morning. i decided to log the Torque converter slip as well as a few other relationships. I think you guys were on the money with that. Maybe I was just in denial about it being that haha. You can clearly see in the center of the picture that is where it feels like a misfire. I guess it is trying to remain locked up but is slipping harshly.

blue line is the torque converter slip
purple is turbine output speed
green is engine RPM

So here is the deal. Where is the best place to get a torque converter for this. I was just thinking of getting one from Rockauto and installing it. Is there a better source or should I purchase a brand new one?

While I have the trans out I am going to finally clean that PTU vent properly and get all that sorted. What else is recommended for the transmission. Should I update the valve body seperator plate to the latest edition ford put out? should I clean the internal filter? or just drop throw in the converter and the reassemble?

pmezo33

You have an 11 flex, right?  I just looked up your car on rockauto and they do have one listed for your car, but that looks like a rebuilt one for the 6F50 trans.  Pretty sure your car has the 6F55 transmission.  Not sure if the parts are interchangeable and probably wouldn't risk it either. 

I'd go new and oem.  Call ford for the part number and find it online somewhere.  Tasca or a similar website should have the part.

Also, it's recommended to do a complete rebuild when doing a TC.  If you just do the TC and the trans is contaminated, you'll end up destroying your new part again.

plymouth383

Quote from: pmezo33 on May 24, 2017, 10:39:53 AM
You have an 11 flex, right?  I just looked up your car on rockauto and they do have one listed for your car, but that looks like a rebuilt one for the 6F50 trans.  Pretty sure your car has the 6F55 transmission.  Not sure if the parts are interchangeable and probably wouldn't risk it either. 

I'd go new and oem.  Call ford for the part number and find it online somewhere.  Tasca or a similar website should have the part.

Also, it's recommended to do a complete rebuild when doing a TC.  If you just do the TC and the trans is contaminated, you'll end up destroying your new part again.

yes, both the 6f50 and the 6f55 use the same torque converter. The part number is even the same from Ford. I can buy a Re-manufactured converter for 200 dollars.

I Don't see myself shelling out the money for the rebuild of the entire transmission. The fluid has been in good shape with nothing to indicate otherwise that there should be any issues. It shifts perfectly and does not slip or have any other issues. I will change the filter that is in the side housing, I found the number for that and will put in fresh fluid all around. 

My brother will be driving the car soon long term so if it happens to end up needing it all rebuilt and replaced I can worry about that then. I figure if I can drop in a few hundred dollars worth of parts and the problem is cured then I am happy.

pmezo33


SHOdded

I am not so sure the torque converter is the same, even though the part number is the same (as you say) between 6F50/55.  But ok ... Give it a go and let's see what happens.

For some reason, I am not seeing any Ecoboost related selections on FordParts.com.  VERY strange.  I looked under Flex and Taurus.

Is this the part you found?
https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-converter-asy_aa5z-7902-b.html
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

F150Eco

Careful with Fordparts. It doesn't​list the whole part number and can be deceptive. It makes it appear that the 2.7 f150 and the 3.5 f150 use the same turbos. Tasca, however, shows a "more complete" part number that is clearly different. The base number was the same.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


SHOdded

It has been suggested that searches by VIN number are more accurate, tho a few exceptions might still crop up.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

pmezo33

Quote from: SHOdded on May 24, 2017, 11:38:43 AM
I am not so sure the torque converter is the same, even though the part number is the same (as you say) between 6F50/55.  But ok ... Give it a go and let's see what happens.

For some reason, I am not seeing any Ecoboost related selections on FordParts.com.  VERY strange.  I looked under Flex and Taurus.

Is this the part you found?
https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-converter-asy_aa5z-7902-b.html

Pretty sure this is the part he's looking at.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,2011,flex,3.5l+v6+turbocharged,1446490,transmission-automatic,torque+converter,8668

plymouth383

yes the deeper I dive into this the more confusing it seems to become.

I looked it up on ford parts giant and found the one that matches my vin as aa5z-7902-b

the one off of ford parts just showed the 7902. I entered the vin and it showed the more expensive option. So I know it lists two converters. but there only seems to be a difference for the flex.

if you check florida torque converter they list two converters as well with the only different one being for the flex. So now I need to determine the difference!

F150Eco

Quote from: SHOdded on May 24, 2017, 12:00:24 PM
It has been suggested that searches by VIN number are more accurate, tho a few exceptions might still crop up.
I search by make/model on tasca, then verify by vin. I've found that to be the simplest way. Love me some tasca.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


pmezo33

Call your local ford dealer parts department and ask for a price and part number and go from there.  I'm sure they'll look it up by vin.