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Livernois Motorsports catted downpipes will NOT pass state inspection

Started by Kcope2006, January 16, 2017, 06:20:43 PM

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ZSHO

I see the OP has not been active for the last couple of days and would advise him or she to contact LME directly with any questions/concern's they may have and speak with Anthony .Z
info@livernoismotorsports.com or tuning@livernoismotorsports.com


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Kcope2006

Sorry I was out of town yesterday for a meeting.
I tried going back to the factory tune but as soon as the truck completed the drive cycle the P0420/P0430 DTC's were triggered.

I appreciate LMS chiming in. I understand your viewpoint but I'm still confused as to why catted downpipes would even be offered in any capacity if they wouldn't trigger the rear O2 "ready" signal at a minimum. I'm in Houston, TX and there is no CARB regulations but the OBII is checked for certain indicators, one of which is the O2 sensors reading "ready".

I've already stated that I'm new at this and learning quickly about AM and tuning products but I feel like I was mislead, even if some of the fault was due to my naivety. The problem is that now I'm stuck with brand new catted down pipes that won't trigger the ready signal and I'm being told the only solution is to install factory downpipes again just to pass inspection. Oh and of course I don't have my old factory downpipes and even if I did the cat on the left bank wasn't working anyway and would have triggered the P0420 DTC.

I will call LMS when I get caught up at work today to see if there are any other solutions. I appreciate everyone's help and feedback!

AJP turbo

Unfortunately you're  1 and only option was laid out to you with your current tune and hard parts

But if willing to spend money you have more options...try another tune, buy ppe catted pipes

Obviously you can see why they turn off the 02's ...you got p0430&20 codes...which begs the question why not go catless and spend less money and get more performance
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Kcope2006

Agreed AJP, that's why I'm dumbfounded why the catted downpipes are even offered. I'd be in the same mess I'm in now with straight pipes so I should have just gone with that option.

My goal now is to get "inspection ready" as cheap as possible. Depending on what LMS says when I call later today I may try some O2 foulers; they're cheap so even if they don't work I'm no worse for the wear but if they do work it will save me a ton of money and headache.

StealBlueSho

Quote from: Kcope2006 on January 18, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
Agreed AJP, that's why I'm dumbfounded why the catted downpipes are even offered. I'd be in the same mess I'm in now with straight pipes so I should have just gone with that option.

My goal now is to get "inspection ready" as cheap as possible. Depending on what LMS says when I call later today I may try some O2 foulers; they're cheap so even if they don't work I'm no worse for the wear but if they do work it will save me a ton of money and headache.

Catted pipes are offered because in some municipalities they do not perform sniffer, readiness, or emission testing of any sort. HOWEVER, during an inspection they do a visual inspection to verify that catalytic converters are present. This is the case for my area, which is why I have catted DP's but the rear o2's are turned off. Just had my state inspection two days ago, passed with flying colors.

Good luck, however, from what I understand, foulers and/or extenders do not work with our cars.

There is good resale value for the LMS catted pipes, so it might be worth picking up a pair of PPE's that have a great track records of achieving readiness and selling the LMS ones in the classified section. The out of pocket loss would be minimal assuming you do the work yourself. 

derfdog15

Here is a link to the PPE pipes for the F150, as you can see they state the cats used will keep the CEL off, however still no guarantee that you pass a readiness check (though if the CEL is not set then you should be in ready state)

http://www.ppeengineering-onlinestore.com/Ford-F150-Ecoboost-V6-25-3-High-flow-Cats-130005.htm

Another option, would be to purchase a more efficient catalytic converter (such as what PPE uses) and swap that in to the current pipes (possibly with flanges to allow for you remove the cats and add straight pipe once you have passed inspection)

Further option, would be to try and find a used set of OEM pipes, from someone that has upgraded and does not need them, and swap those in, then swap back to the LME pipes after.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

Kcope2006

Well I bought 2 "mini CAT" extenders/non-foulers to install and try first. I figure $100 and an easy install is worth the attempt. They have the platinum-rhodium honeycombs in them so we'll see. They'll be in tomorrow so by time I get them, install and drive around to get through the drive cycle I should know something this weekend. I'm praying I'll get lucky and it works.

If that doesn't work then I'll probably look for used OEM downpipes to install for the inspection and then have to put the LMS hi-flow pipes back.

Another side note: I'm obviously frustrated with the stupid state inspection mess I'm dealing with but I have to give props to LMS for the performance package. The truck runs beautifully on the 93 performance tune and I'm getting some serious increases in torque and HP and you can feel it not only when I put the pedal to the floor but even in day to day driving. The throttle response and shifting is greatly improved and my gas mileage has gone up about 2mpg in my daily commute. I haven't tried the Xv1 Race tune yet but I will as soon as I get past the hurdle with the inspection.

Again, thank all of you for the help/suggestions and I'll keep you posted.

ZSHO

If you have torque pro you can certainly monitor the I/M readiness status but unfortunately as mentioned a while back it can take sometimes up to 200 miles before all monitors are ready, especially the heated catalyst and best of luck to ya. Z
Here's a great link below on the obd monitor's.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/obd_monitor_not_ready.htm


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Blackhawk

The manual may have instructions on how to run through the full cycle of tests, I've seen it now in a lot of modern vehicles.

Livernois Motorsports

Just to add some clarity. First, and foremost, why we offer catted downpipes, and primarily recommend them are for a number of reasons. #1 smell. I don't know anyone that would want to deal with the stench of a non-catted setup on anything, but especially cars and trucks as nice as this. #2 at least there is some improvement in emissions vs. non-cats, even though it's for race use, it's not a bad thing to make it cleaner than no cats would do. #3 raspiness, cats do help with the tone of the exhaust. #4 the power difference is not what most people think. While there is an improvement from downpipes in power, a high flow race cat vs. no cat is only about 2-3hp difference on builds exceeding 700hp. So, it's a fallacy that ditching cats vs. a race cat is going to unlock power. It's lucky to be 2hp on anything EcoBoost. #5 oil smoke, ecoboost vehicles have a high tendency to have some amount of oil smoke, even when stock, but by ditching cats entirely, this almost becomes a guarantee that it will have oil smoke.

Now, as for running a different cat, now you have a tradeoff. For a catalyst to be better at it's job, there are a number of things that much be true. #1 is it will be more restrictive. This means it will be more restrictive than a comparable cat that is less effective. To offset this, you can make the cat larger, but we're talking substantially so. It's not linear, meaning a 50% reduction in flow through the brick does not mean you increase it 50% to offset the loss in flow, a good baseline is doubling it in size to get back to your starting point. But, since this would be an exceptionally expensive catalyst assembly, no one does that, so, instead, they accept a reduction in flow to achieve this efficiency in conversion of emissions. So, you've now put a downpipe on the car to gain flow, but then put a cat on it that flows similar to stock for the chance of not setting a light.

AJP turbo

If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

derfdog15

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes

Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

SHOdded

Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Don't know that the ball was dropped at all.  Last I heard, LME uses the same highflow Magnaflow units that PPE does, the rest is just a pipe, so hard to understand the difference, if any.  Do we have enough people chiming in to say that with LME downpipes and a stock tune, they did not pass a sniffer test or an OBD test?  Same Q about the rear O2s being turned off.  With a stock tune, they would be turned back on.

No, they are not saying a larger cat would restrict flow.  They ARE saying that in order to be as efficient as the OEM needs a cat to be to meet EPA standards, as well as meet the packaging requirements of the vehicle, the cat is designed to be relatively small and restrictive.  You would have to install a larger cat to achieve less restriction, higher flow, and still meet the OEM cat's catalytic efficiency.


Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Olfactory senses differ, SMH, LOL.  But cold starts will yield the worst of the output.  Remember GTDI is very similar to diesel technology, and the emissions are quite similar in nature.  That is to say, quite carcinogenic.  I would not want to be breathing in that crap for even a short period of time.  Why would you want others to?

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

Generally not with PPE downpipes.  With SW downpipes, yes, but they do not use the Magnaflow hiflow units.

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

True, the most frequent case being a turbo seal.  OEM turbo seals, at least on 2010-12 units, have been known to be weak.  So a tune or a catback/turboback has been "blamed" for its' failure.  Having more cats in the path restricts efficiency, but also removes more particulate matter/emissions.

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes
And we want to help the turbos live as long as possible!
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

ZSHO

Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
If there is little difference as you state between no cat and catted then why are you saying that a larger more efficient cat will restrict flow?...seems a little better acting catalytic converter that would not throw codes would be worth it...i would say LMS dropped the ball and should've made a cat pipe that would set I/M monitors since you say that flow is not greatly improved by going catless

Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know

Members have reported rasp from catted pipes as well

If you have oil smoke from the catless pipes you have a turbo oil sytem problem period...could be oil drain, seals  , crank case pressure, intake restriction

I would say the big benefit of catless is the fact that they reduce thermal load on the turbo which will help life when running the turbos hard like we all do with 3 bar tunes

Seconded, for a 2 hp loss, that warrants selling a more expensive but cleaner emitting downpipe (and heavier as well, plus think about the emissions impact of producing a catalytic converer...I digress)... why not lose another.5 hp and have one that is as clean as stock, atleast with regards to what the rear O2 sees.

And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

derfdog15

Quote from: ZSHO on January 19, 2017, 06:52:05 PM
Quote from: derfdog15 on January 19, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: AJP turbo on January 19, 2017, 04:56:36 PM
Sho's have a 3rd cat so going catless yields very little smell i know
And as for smell, nail on the head. Granted I have the same SW pipes that AJPTurbo had, but with my third cat in place, and summit race mufflers I have not noticed much of a smell difference. Stock vs. catless it always had a slight gas smell on a cold start. On warm start I can't tell a difference. Most people leave the 3rd cat, until going with a catback, and even then, I doubt there would be a major smell change.
I beg to differ!!!! no gas smell here cold or warm with 40K+tuned miles. Z
I am not referring to a smell in cabin, I am referring to literally standing in front of the exhaust pipes, as the exhaust clouds out due to the hot gas hitting frigid air. There is a faint hint of gasoline in that scenario, which has been the case on my car since it was brand new. Not noticeable next to the car or in it/in front of.

I have noticed an almost identical smell to what I am describing with any vehicle that I have driven in the cold, my old 04 F150 did it, my mustang does it, my moms fusion, my grandmas focus. Everyone one of those vehicles, including mustang and F150 had all stock catalytic converts. Other than the mustang and F150 the entire exhaust system stock on those cars.

I may have a more acute sense to the smell of gas than you, who knows. But the statement/fact remains that on my car, catless downpipes and 3rd cat has not changed smell, and I doubt there would be much difference with a 3rd cat delete, but can not make a factual statement regarding my car in that scenario because I have not done it yet.

As always, cars are different, people are different, so who knows, maybe with my car but you near it you would not notice a smell? Maybe your car, and me in the scenario I described - I would smell something?

I think both of our cars, and senses are different. Good discussion here, but at this point you and I debating whether our cars have a smell isn't of much value to this thread IMO.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car