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Livernois Motorsports catted downpipes will NOT pass state inspection

Started by Kcope2006, January 16, 2017, 06:20:43 PM

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Kcope2006

First let me say I am new to performance upgrades and tuning vehicles. I have a '12 F150 Ecoboost and had been wanting to install some upgrades to tap into the power the Ecoboost engine can offer.
After doing some research and talking extensively to a coworker of mine who lives and breathes Ford racing (Specifically working on any one of his 3 Mustangs) I decided to go with Livernois. I bought their "stage 2+" package which includes high flow air intake, new modular intake tube, new thermostat and CATTED DOWNPIPES.
This idea originally came to mind because my factory driver side cat was no longer functioning and I needed to replace my downpipes so I decided I may as well upgrade!

Come to find out my factory cat had gone bad because I had a misfire in cylinder 1; I installed the Livernois components with a new coil for cylinder 1 and all 6 new spark plugs and everything was running great.

Then it came time for my state inspection. I already had several hundred miles on the truck after the repair and install so I took it to the local state inspection shop and it failed because the catalyst and O2 sensors were "not ready". After calling Livernois I learned that they turn off the rear O2 sensors in their tune so they will never reach the "ready" state.

What blows my mind is why would an aftermarket manufacturer sell a catted downpipe if they're going to bypass the rear O2 sensor? There were no disclaimers or statements on the Livernois website and I even called and spoke with someone before ordering the parts and it never came up. Shame on me for not asking the right question but that still pisses me off they would offer/sell a catted down pipe that won't pass inspection requirements.

I've also done some more digging and found out that the latest and greatest tunes keep the rear O2 sensor activated because it calibrates the front O2 sensor. Livernois does not do this and it seems they are behind the times in the tuning world. Reference: https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/rear-o2-sensors-necessary-or-not-the-definitive-answer-inside.1122899/

All that being said the performance has been great on the truck but not happy I'm having to deal with figuring out a solution to get my truck to pass inspection with brand new parts and tune installed.

Don't make the same mistake I did - buy catted downpipes and a tune that takes into account passing the state inspection.

I've already called Livernois to request that they turn on the rear O2 sensors but "it can't be done". I asked if I could just installed the stock tune to pass inspection and was told the cats will trigger the O2 sensor and my check engine light will come on. The only "solution" that was offered was to reinstall the factory catted downpipes and stock tune.

Any suggestions?

SHOdded

Seems there is quite some misinformation floating around here.  You can always return to factory tune even on AM downpipes for emissions testing purposes.  This is what most people do.  Plus you have to perform the inspections readiness cycle before testing.  It can take 200 miles,  more sometimes.  You can easily check if your vehicle is ready with a key sequence specified in the owners manual.

As far as the rear O2,  LME will do what you ask them to do.  I dont know who you talked with, but they are hardly inflexible.  Ask 4 Anthony.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

derfdog15

For the SHO PPE catted downpipes are the only ones known to pass inspection. You may be able to check with Full Race for your F150 since they do a lot with the F150 platform?

Unfortunately though, you will realistically need to go back to stock pipes and/or stock tune OR get a different tuner if they won't budge on turning back rear O2s back on. Any upgrade to catalytic converts can cause issues with emissions readiness unfortunately and each tuner goes about it differently.

You should also note that even though they are catted, there are two types of high flow cats generally, the type that looks like a catalytic converter but does not actually do anything, and the type that actually work as a catalytic converter. Depending on the manufactuer they may use either type.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

Kcope2006

Shodded - I am attempting that first. I'll let you know in a couple of days if it works or not. I had spoken to Matt and was told they couldn't be turned back on. Maybe I'll call Anthony if going back to stock tune doesn't do the trick.

I guess I'll know if they are actually converters or if they just look like it after driving around for a couple of days derfdog.

Thank you both for the suggestions.

SHOdded

2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

AJP turbo

Still trying to figure out the reason for turning off the rear 02's with catted pipes...maybe they were hoping that you lived in a state where just a visual was required instead of an OBD test and turning off the rear 02's guaranteed them you wouldnt pester them with P0420/P0430 codes if the catted pipes aren't  an efficient enough catalyst

You could've just got catless pipes and saved money if your rear 02's werent going to be on
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

ZSHO

Welcome aboard Kcope2006 and honestly had a similar experience as you did a few year's back but this was with Stage 3 M.S and no where on there site did it say that there catted DP were for off road use only and bit the bullet and later went with the PPE catted DP from www.ecopowerparts.com and IMHO couldn't be happier especially if your state requires I/M readiness testing.
I would say that LMS does disclose that there catted DP are not EPA approved and as such they are for off road use only. and best of luck to ya.  Z
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP101113


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

Heelfan1

You could try extenders on the rear O2's some have had success with them.
2013 SHO non PP LMS Tuned, 160ts, 3 Bar, CAI, DP's
2013 EX Sport, LMS Tuned, 160ts,3 Bar, CAI
2018 Raptor H.O. Ecoboost LMS Tuned
2011 F150 Harley Edition 6.2 AWD(sold)
Whipple SC, JDM Tuned 600+ hp

AJP turbo

Quote from: Heelfan1 on January 16, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
You could try extenders on the rear O2's some have had success with them.

Not on this car they haven't...they wont work
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

Heelfan1

2013 SHO non PP LMS Tuned, 160ts, 3 Bar, CAI, DP's
2013 EX Sport, LMS Tuned, 160ts,3 Bar, CAI
2018 Raptor H.O. Ecoboost LMS Tuned
2011 F150 Harley Edition 6.2 AWD(sold)
Whipple SC, JDM Tuned 600+ hp

Livernois Motorsports

I definitely want to clear some things up in here. Firstly, I apologize that you feel that there was some misinformation, but our website, and posts, clearly state that downpipes are not EPA approved, and not legal for on road use. Secondly, any, and I do mean ANY downpipe for these trucks, cars, and anything or than the actual OEM unit is NOT legal. Anyone marketing them as such are actually the ones doing the misleading. Unfortunately many people think that just by having, or not having a check engine light means something is good. Unfortunately, it is not. Being we have put products of ours through the CARB cert process, we are speaking from experience. If it's truly legal, it will have an EO. If someone tells you it's legal, and doesn't have an EO to back it up, then, well, it's simply not. Additionally, any tune that decides to try to "cheat" by adjusting the tune to not throw a fault are breaking some serious laws, something we will not do. If someone chooses to make their vehicle "off-road/race use only" then they need to own up to that decision. But, again, to recap, there is not a single, legal, aftermarket downpipe for any ecoboost platform.

derfdog15

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 18, 2017, 09:12:34 AM
I definitely want to clear some things up in here. Firstly, I apologize that you feel that there was some misinformation, but our website, and posts, clearly state that downpipes are not EPA approved, and not legal for on road use. Secondly, any, and I do mean ANY downpipe for these trucks, cars, and anything or than the actual OEM unit is NOT legal. Anyone marketing them as such are actually the ones doing the misleading. Unfortunately many people think that just by having, or not having a check engine light means something is good. Unfortunately, it is not. Being we have put products of ours through the CARB cert process, we are speaking from experience. If it's truly legal, it will have an EO. If someone tells you it's legal, and doesn't have an EO to back it up, then, well, it's simply not. Additionally, any tune that decides to try to "cheat" by adjusting the tune to not throw a fault are breaking some serious laws, something we will not do. If someone chooses to make their vehicle "off-road/race use only" then they need to own up to that decision. But, again, to recap, there is not a single, legal, aftermarket downpipe for any ecoboost platform.


No offense to you guys at all, but LEGAL vs. Pass Inspection are two different aspects. Also, unless the part is being used in California, no CARB EO number is needed, that means it passes California Emissions, which are more stringent of a standard. Some states do just a visual inspection, meaning that your downpipes, or any with catalytic converters in place, would pass just fine (where-as my catless downpipes, or any catless set up would not). Other states base the test on the readiness of the OBDII emissions system, which CAN be in a "ready" state, even with aftermarket downpipes (Example, PPE downpipes on the SHO/Flex, they pass state inspections that check readiness).

Again, you are very correct that unless the part has been certified through EPA emissions cycles, and demod through testing for the EPA/ ARB boards, then they are still technically illegal. But I believe OP is looking to pass inspection, which some systems can do (I have a SHO, so I do not know if there is a downpipe for the F150 that will pass a readiness inspection)

As always though, thank you for chiming in, and I am sure you guys will do your best to take care of the OP.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car

Livernois Motorsports

In our view it's really not different. You have Legal vs. illegal and not caught vs. illegal and caught. It really boils down to that. if someone wants to break laws, that's on them. But I promise you, if they took a "passed" inspection from downpipes to the EPA it would be thrown out immediately, and I think people need to know that. We've had customers get burned by this just moving from counties that did OBD and then going to one that does sniffer tests with other companies products, the new county couldn't care less that they had a "passed" inspection from the other county. It failed their sniffer, even with no lights on. And, while not every state is California, I think there are 16 states that follow CARB standards. so it's not just 1 or 2.

avidmotion

Sp542@.028, windstorm CAI, MSD coils, AO GH TUNE, GH intercooler, All Amsoil, General Gmax-rs summer tires, +PP, PP PADS,EDC rotors, Colinite 476s wax, used PPE DPs, Resonator | 3rd Cat Delete with custom X pipe, Dicunzolo Gen2 Trans Mounts|, 3 bar, stock thermostat,  TRACY LEWIS DESIGNED Team RXP, the Original oil separator.

derfdog15

Quote from: Livernois Motorsports on January 18, 2017, 09:52:24 AM
In our view it's really not different. You have Legal vs. illegal and not caught vs. illegal and caught. It really boils down to that. if someone wants to break laws, that's on them. But I promise you, if they took a "passed" inspection from downpipes to the EPA it would be thrown out immediately, and I think people need to know that. We've had customers get burned by this just moving from counties that did OBD and then going to one that does sniffer tests with other companies products, the new county couldn't care less that they had a "passed" inspection from the other county. It failed their sniffer, even with no lights on. And, while not every state is California, I think there are 16 states that follow CARB standards. so it's not just 1 or 2.

Thanks for the response, I agree that you guys are correct as far as it tempting fate to run anything other than OEM on a street car, and that the EPA wouldn't care if it passes readiness or not if it does not actually pass their regulatory standards. That said, and as you are well aware, there are MANY people on MANY platforms that run catless or high performance catted pipes because of the gains that can be had. I think the main concern in this thread is why OPs rear O2s are off (or if he was mis-informed), and if you guys can correct it (atleast as far as rear O2s on/talking to OP and working with him).

I respect your opinion here, and whole-heartedly agree running non OEM pipes leaves room for issues no matter who the pipes are from, specifically with EPA regulations.

I hope OP can get it resolved in a manner that is satisfactory to him.
2015 Tuxedo Black SHO PP -(SAE corrected): 369.4/451.4 - Gone to the automotive graveyard but not forgotten

2016 F150 FX4 Sport - 3.5L V6 Ecoboost - Stock for now

2003 Redfire V6 Mustang - Building to be an 11 second car