Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on October 09, 2016, 04:13:12 PM
You are interested in truth and facts? That statement is at odds with your last post at the other forum as you admit to not even taking the first basic step to find the MSDS sheet. So you are interested, just not enough to do the work? Hell I found all of this info while I was recovering from a traumatic brain injury. So yeah, from my perspective you dragged a bunch of other forum drama over here before exercising due diligence, its the same pattern I've seen repeated at nearly every forum regarding ACES hence my attitude about the situation. You ordered and used BND products without any testing or data but Zalvern flouncing gives you pause and now changes your perception? I don't know if Zalvern is an overzealous ACES enthusiast that found himself in an impossible to defend position (much like I find myself in) or a BND shill. If he is a BND shill then he should be fired and me hired because he's a pussy that tucked and ran instead of staying and defending his position. (Yeah Zalvern, I'm calling you out!)I will not back down so easily as I enjoy spirited debate and ultimately I don't give a s*** whether you believe me or not. It is impossible to please the entire internet and there's always going to be somebody that thinks I'm full of s*** about something. That being said, Lets get it on...
Here is a Shell V-Power msds sheet
http://s07.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/aus/downloads/fuels/msds/msds-shellvpower.pdf
Will this or any lab test explain why it has so much knock resistance when mixed with Speedway Corn vs speedway 93? Looks like pretty normal fuel ingredients to me.
Nope, all you have is my word and the word of my tuner who witnessed it first hand (blindly I might add) that we were knock limited very early and once I switched we have been able to progress to revision 22 with the only change being the Vpower base fuel. I have no idea why and I have no idea how all these chemicals work together to suppress knock so effectively. That sheet does nothing to help me understand what is going on. Am I going to get called out for being a shill for Shell oil now? If that MSDS helps you figure it all out, clue me in please.
I guess I could lab test ACES but that's not gonna tell me squat about how it reacts with different fuels, additive packs, metals in the engine, reactions in the combustion chamber, behavior when directly injected vs port, etc, etc. With so many variables, how are we to prove this conclusively one way or another?
As far as tuners and the "standards" we hold them to...go ahead and ask LME or Unleashed about their tune settings that you drive around with and let me know the results. In fact, I think you should immediately start threads in their areas demanding the information be disclosed. You run their tunes sight unseen with no idea about the thousands of settings and millions of possible combinations that could be used based on a log of a whopping 40 parameters. What if someone accidentally entered a value in your part throttle maps that could unwittingly cause megaknock? How would you know? How would you prove it? What is this scientific standard they are being held to? Oh, I know, real world experiences, performance, and a little blind faith mixed in. How do we quantify safety when dealing with a still unknown phenomenon like megaknock? We don't. Where is your concern? On a side note I think ACES will help suppress any naughty hot spots.
What proof should I submit to you about my Full E85 tune? Only AJPTurbo and I know how he tuned the car. Maybe we're lying. Maybe not. How did we maintain that fuel pressure and keep the dreaded fuel trim CEL at bay? Guess what? I'm not going to tell you because that is proprietary info based upon my research and his tuning skills which I will not disclose under any circumstances. Everything I've tried with my tunes originates from internet based research. If he wants to disclose it so be it as my livelihood doesn't depend on it but he does stand to make a profit and I believe he has earned that right.
ACES did indeed clean up my tailpipes much like E85 does. Interestingly that corresponds well with the ACES video I watched showing greatly reduced soot production. Is it proof of the claim? Nope and I don't now how I could possibly prove it to anyone. I could send you a picture but i may have wiped my tips off prior.
http://americancleanenergysystems.com/americancleanenergysystems/Old%20Site/files/AcesVideo.mpg
Seriously, we could go on like this for eternity and get absolutely nowhere. The research that I have ultimately means nothing. Even when I had hard lab data about direct injected E85 I remained cautious because the lab and the real world don't always match up. I'm not sure I have 160 "octane effect", "effective octane" or whatever you may want to call it. What I do know is that my tune settings tell me its pretty high. The way my tune is now I might be able to tell if there's an "effective octane increase". The question is how much will it raise an already potent mixture? Will that affect the results? I don't know and in my case, it will not matter as i wanted ACES for the lubricating properties since I'm flush with octane.
Not that any of this matters, but here you go...And yes, I do have ideas about the actions of the ingredients. Since I'm not a chemist or tribologist I will be sorely lacking in proof and/or credibility but I will be happy to offer wild conjecture if you are interested.
http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf
I stand by my original post about the reasons I was uncomfortable disclosing my findings. I like Brian, he has been 100% truthful IMHO, (I'm a trust but try to verify kind of guy)and based upon my experiences, research, and extremely limited comprehension of chemistry and tribology, I believe ACES has some merit. That also means I cannot conceptualize all the ways competitors could use any data I post against him. He is a very small fish in an ocean of players armed with lots of cash and attorneys and I would feel horrible if something I posted screwed with his livelihood. If this makes me a bad guy, so be it. I've heard this has happened already and I'm trying to track down that info as well. I've been going back and forth with SHOdded about this because he's way smarter about this s*** than I am.
If you truly believe I am in any way shilling for BND, I will gladly send you my invoices.
Research protip...Go back to the beginning
American Clean Energy Systems
Peace
If you think keyboard warrior style language is going to scare me and setting yourself up as a marytar to cover your ass in later discussion is going to save you try again, been there seen that. Further straying from the point widely here is a great way to confuse and setup straw men. I've been on the internet for 25 years, I've seen this game before I will stick to the facts and do my best to leave the hyperbolic language at bay even if you seem to enjoy it so. I am also going to stay with the facts and data I collect.
I like you (even though you attack me for this at the beginning of your post then change your stance at the end) are a trust but verify type of person. I trusted senior members like you and zalvern to try this out and was carefully verifying the data as I saw it. The second I said that I was a little underwhelmed with the performance, not that it was fake and not that it did not work mind you, first one person runs and no you are swinging your *ick and taking a very confrontational tone while throwing in other arguments and discussions not salient to the discussion. Like what zalvern did your post brings reason for concern. You state things are proprietary but go off on tangents about other items not related to this discussion and attack points I did not make. These are classic techniques to derail things and honestly I am a bit disappointing in you as I thought much better of you before this post.
I was an early AMSOil user so I know well how fud can be thrown on a perfectly good product and was more than willing to give BND a full try out before this blow up which personally I feel is more on the side of zal and yourself that it is on me as I am really only stating what I have seen from my own experience. It has been this first shut out and now your near violent reaction that has me stepping back and deciding that this stuff IS NOT going in my car until I have a lab tell me it is safe to do so.
Once I have a lab report telling me that this is not some crude base stock or some other kind of fluid that could cause an issue I will put the stuff into my crankcase and drive train and log and provide my thoughts and opinions though I am not looking for your approval I am posting what I see and will let the readers of those posts make their own decisions.
To summarize for the folks watching this debacle.
1. I purchased and received a full set of AcesIV fluid after doing basic research, talking to Brian and TRUSTING people lile Zalvern and FoMoCoSHO that is was really shockingly good stuff, being a long time AMSOil user I went ahead and order the full set of fluids.
2. Upon receiving AcesIV i started using it with my next fill up. Within a single tank I saw what appeared to be an increase in gas mileage by approx 2mpg. However temps had also crashed over the same period so I posted asking if perhaps it was the cold weather? Maybe it was Aces, maybe it was an abboration
3. Not sure if what I noticed in MPG was legit and not seeing a huge change in my runs or logs I decided to put some AcesIV into my 2012 Fiesta SES with an N/A 1.6L engine. Before we were into the tank more than 1/4 i noticed a change in driving and my wife did too. Acceleration seemed smoother.
4. Still not sure I am seeing anything in the fusion I give sthulin over at 2gfusions some to try in his tank. That very same week my OARs crashed which as stated before I DO NOT blame on AcesIV rather than some bad gas at a Sunoco station near New England Dragway
5. I switched back the station that has traditionally given me my best OAR and have stuck with it for the last few tanks as well as Reset KAM in my SCT. I am still using AcesIV in every tank and am waiting for my OAR to recover before trying to do any further testing on AcesIV such as testing a 100 octane tune (which zalvern stated he ran successfully on AcesIV and pump 93 fuel).
6. JGR on 2g asked how testing was going and I stated that while I noticed things in the Fiesta; in the Fusion it seemed much more difficult to verify, maybe due to higher engine output. That said I said I continued to test and was holding back judgement until I completed the bottle and tried a 100 octane tune at least on a simple test. If anything when I ran out of the stuff I might see something. I stated that so far I am a bit underwhelmed as I have not seen much with the fusion but at least the fiesta saw a change.
7. Zalvern (zdyne) asked me to use Forscan (an open app indie developed with no association to Ford) as he did not trust SCT's output via Livelink or the device nor did he trust Torque.
8. I agreed that I would use Forscan (and plan to) to see what it shows for my OAR, since these are all just reading data reported from the ECU I expect it to read the same value with whatever display the software chooses to use (precentage, raw value, whatever). I also restated my testing intentions.
9. At this point Zdyne (zalvern) back-peadled on the 100 octane claim and then posted over a full page of unrelated marketing information and data about the "safety" and "standards compliance" of the AcesIV material which I never questioned. I was simply looking to verify the claims printed on the bottle it self and the claims brain made in my conversation with him. He also insinuated in his post that I was somehow disparaging brian or the product by saying I was thus far underwhelmed but still testing (what?)
10. I noted that Zdyne's post seemed like backpedalling on previous claims and did not really like the insinuations being made nor was a full page of marketing unrelated to the discussion at hand needed. At this point I asked him if he was sponsored, receiving discounts or free product for the purposes of open disclosure.
11. Zdyne (zal) deletes all his posts on 2gf, blocks PMs, makes his account private and ignored all remaining posts. This is where the RED FLAG alarm start going off BIG TIME. I had been trusting AND verifying and this move had me re-thinking the trust part as after all $500 on fluids is a bit pricey but cheap compared to an engine or drivetrain rebuild if the rest of this stuff has something up with it and I think considering the circumstances I have plenty of reason to drop the trust side of things considering.
12. Looking for answers and knowing that folks here SHOULD also be aware of the facts around BND I posted here as well. Shortly after Zalvern did the same here with his posts and account that he did on 2gf.
13. This now has me dropping the trust part of things entirely and going into full VERIFY mode. As much as I would like to trust it just cannot happen now and so before I even attempt to use these fluids any further I need a lab not associated with BND to tell me they are at least safe to run in my application.
14. I have acquired 9 quarts of royal purple (8 for the crankcase without balance shaft, 1 for testing) and 1 quart of motorcraft synthetic blend to send to Blackstone labs along with samples of all the BND fluids I have to see what they say. I expect the information to be very useful for us all. JGR at 2gf has kindly offered to help pick up the tab on the lab testing.
15. Tomorrow I plan to put the kits together and ship them out, considering the heat this is getting from certain members I will video this and post it. On tuesday I will ship things out to blackstone and should hopefully have the results before thanks giving.
16. I do intend on using AcesIV until the bottle is gone, I will attempt to talk to brian on tuesday after the holiday but I do suspect he may not talk to me or sell me any more product should these tests even prove that the product is as good as the claims made.
In the midst of this FoMoCoSHO has come out as an ardent supporter of BND quoting unverifiable proprietary data that if I was as amazing as him I would apparently have though none of you dear readers are allowed to see. I did not demand an MSDS, another member did (sholxgt) and I promised to look for and ask for these documents (remember I was trying to trust and verify originally). I thank you Fomocosho for posting a link to the MSDS as sholxgt asked, it was about the only useful bit of your entire rant.
I will post again as I progress in my testing but will not engage in childish internet warrior debate. You can be on topic and respectful or you can be dismissed completely. How you respond is up-to-you.
Have a great one!
