• Welcome to Ecoboost Performance Forum. Please log in or sign up.
collapse

High Knock Retard on Stock 16 X-Sport

Started by 16MagSport, August 06, 2016, 12:36:56 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

16MagSport

Here are a few logs from last week.  I took off from the house and did the first log on the on ramp, so it was only running about 5-10 mins.  The next log was after running on a tight windy road.  The road was unlevel.  I turned around and went the other way for the last log, which was withing a few minutes of the previous and the knock went way up.  The difference between the two would be where the road was uphill vs downhill.  I think 3rd was uphill in the last log so the actual load would be higher.  Maybe that is the difference.  The on-ramp was level ground.

Thanks
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

FoMoCoSHO

Looks pretty normal and absolute load (which follows torque) is similar to other stock logs I've seen.

Personally I think the stock KR is caused from being pig rich and the cylinders are getting too wet.

Looks like the 91 helped, looks like max KR was 3.75.

In 3rd you can see at the highest KR it pulled some timing but started giving it back as it subsided.

IMO, everything is fine.

SHOdded

Heat soak may be a factor here?  Trans fluid level checked (within the cross-hatch on the dipstick)?  With a LOR of near -1, fuel is not the issue.  Maybe you should try 1 gal/tank of E85 and see what difference that makes to the drive/logs.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

16MagSport

Did you see the last log where it had knock set to 7.5 and only had 5 degrees advance?  That doesn't seem right.

I need something else explained.  Look at time 12.5sec.  This is just after the 300ms of shift retard for the 2nd to 3rd shift.  After that, it is only at 6.5 advance with knock at 7.25.  At time 13.3 sec the knock only went down to 7.00 but the advance went up to 10.0.  What told it to go up the extra 3 degrees?  All the temps went up and the load stayed pegged.  Maybe it was the change in boost level, but that is pretty marginal.

Does anyone have copies of the stock spark tables?  I am guessing there is a base spark table, then modifiers based on IAT and ECT, and then what else is there?

Thanks
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

16MagSport

I was going to take it to the drag strip Wednesday and put some 100 octane in and see what happens to the log, but they aren't racing this week.  This was my last chance since the kids go back to school next week and I have to pick them up.  Anyway, E85 is not near me.  I may add some octane booster.  I need to research that.  My buddy said something about Torco or something like that, but he didn't use it with direct injection.  I need to make sure that the Ecoboost is okay with whatever I use.  I really just want to put the high octane stuff in at the track. 

I was thinking that maybe my crank position sensor is off a few degrees and it is actually more advanced than it thinks.  Is that possible?  If it was, should it have run quicker than my best bone stock pass of 14.56 @ 94.6 mph at sea level?

The other option is to run 87 in it and see if it pings.  If it does, something isn't right.  The manual says you can run 87.  If the knock retard runs out of range and can't retard it enough to keep from pinging, then something is wrong.  What do you think?

Thanks
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

AJP turbo

I don't know that I would worry about it too much if stock...The load and conditions change so rapidly because of the varying boost levels that happen throughout the rev range on the stock tune...So the spark is ever changing because of the compensations, load...It's like the proper spark is a moving target because of the tune...I guess that's how OEM's get good power from 87 octane and engine size...They ride the edge and let the knock sensors tweak it I guess.

And about the spark tables...It's really not as simple as it used to be...There are at least 15 base tables for spark...Then there are adders for air fuel ratio then modifiers for MBT spark then compensations for IAT, ECT, trans oil temp(TOT) then the scaling for OAR

I wouldn't waste time with octane boosters the can be too inconsistent ....Either try VP street blaze or Race Fuel Concentrate in the orange and white cans from summit racing or Jegs...
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress

SHOdded

Having it knock for that long, that's REALLY riding the edge.  Fuel economy?  And yet a proper tune nets you more performance, usually better fuel economy, and knock at/near 0 throughout the rev range.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

16MagSport

If this proper tune increases the boost to get more power, then it must drop the commanded advance way down to have knock at 0.  What is the advance on average at WOT in third on the aftermarket tunes?

I would think leaning out the AFR would only make it worse, since the rich mixture helps cool.
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

AJP turbo

Overly rich is bad also

Spark is not dependent on gear.....its purely load and rpm and compensations and modifiers

Ive seen it vary substantially thats why i believe  each tune should custom for each car if max performance is sought

I would say maybe very low teens for spark for 1.55 load for a rough average
SCT Dealer/Custom Calibrator                        
Specializing in 3.5 Ecoboost   
Remote/email custom tuning including E85 blends 
Authorized retailer for all SCT devices. 
 
Former:2014 PP SHO
3 bar 93 tune, Airaid, Stainless Works non catted DP's  
405whp/520tq
Dyno
     
Current:2016 F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Tuning in progress


16MagSport

Low teens with more boost and mine only wants 10 stock.  Something is no bueno!  I know overly rich is bad, but what is overly rich?  I have seen stock tunes running 10.8 AFR, so that would be a lambda of 0.76 on these.  I am a little leaner than that.  Wait a second, I just looked at the last log with the crazy 7.5 knock and it had the Lambda at 0.70!  Holly crap.  That was super rich.  9.85 AFR?!  How did it even run with that?!  the Lambse was right there so it is measuring exactly what is commanded.  What makes it command such a rich mixture.  When knock is sensed, does it only retard timing or does it add fuel too?

The turned way down aftermarket test tune I ran was at 8.00 in the middle of 3rd at 4950rpm with knock at 4.25.  Lambse and Lambda were all at 0.82, so a much nicer AFR.  kPA was 201.  It was still pulling a ton eventhough the tune had it turned way down.  At 5000 rpm still in the middle of 3rd gear, knock jumped to 5.75 and advance dropped to 6.50.  So, even with a good AFR, it was still sensing knock with 8 degrees advance! 

I ordered some Torco!  I just want to see if I can get the knock to 0 somehow.
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

16MagSport

I'll have to look at your logs at home.  I better actually get something done at work today!  Thanks
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

sholxgt

Instead of trying octane booster or race gas, I'd put a tune in it and start logging it instead.

Stock, these things run rich enough to make the tailpipes look like a diesel.

I would be surprised if a good tune doesn't make your KR go away. 
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

16MagSport

Quote from: sholxgt on August 08, 2016, 05:22:23 PM
Instead of trying octane booster or race gas, I'd put a tune in it and start logging it instead.

Stock, these things run rich enough to make the tailpipes look like a diesel.

I would be surprised if a good tune doesn't make your KR go away.

I did, and had audible knock which is why I went back to the stock tune so I could see what is going on.  I also had a dialed back aftermarket tune put in so I could log and see what is going on.  Read the last paragraph from reply #25.  I could try another tuner, but I don't want to spend another $150 on tunes that won't work because I already have too much KR on a stock tune.  The last log on the super dialed back aftermarket tune still showed knock of 5 so it only had advance at 6.5 to 8 degrees in 3rd, even with a good 0.82 measured AFR.  He was commanding a super low advance because I had audible knock in his previous tune eventhough it was an 87 octane tune and I have always only had 91 in the tank.  He also saw how much advance the stock tune wanted from my logs, so he knew where to start and it still pulled a bunch with the KR.
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

sholxgt

#29
Since you have not mentioned the tuner you are using, I want to throw this out there...

LME, Unleashed and Leading Edge Tuning are well known shops that have a lot of experience with the transverse 3.5 EB. If you are using a different tuner, that could be your problem.  There is also a wild card tuner here on the forum that has shown a remarkable ability to fine tune these cars.

Do you have any modifications?

Edited to add...I would also be frustrated. 
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106