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High Knock Retard on Stock 16 X-Sport

Started by 16MagSport, August 06, 2016, 12:36:56 PM

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16MagSport

This is really disappointing.  I want to run a tune in this thing but it doesn't look like I can.  I loaded an 87 octane tune with an SCT X4 and it detonated with 91 octane in the tank, so I put the stock tune back in and logged that.  This thing will hit 7 on knock WOT with the stock tune running 91 octane.  I tried multiple stations after running the tank dry, so it should not be fuel unless it is all Cali fuel. The logs show it wanting to get the advance down to 10 on multiple logs.  It is higher in 1st and 2nd, but in third when the load is higher it always gets down around 10 on advance.  I looked at a log from a stock 17 and it is running 16-19 degrees in second gear and 14-17 degrees through 3rd.  After only running about 5 minutes, mine was 15-18 in 2nd and 10.5-14.5 in 3rd with knock reaching 3.75 in 3rd.  This looked better so I was feeling some hope.  Then, 45 minutes later after running a tight windy road, 3rd had 10-13 advance with knock peaking at 3.  It must have been commanding a lower base timing because of warming IAT's or ECT's.  I did another run a couple minutes later and it had 9-11 degress in 3rd and the knock peaked at 7.5 at the top of 2nd and through the shift to third.  For the first couple hundred RPM in 3rd after the shift retard, it was only 5 degrees.  The Sport is all stock with only 6k miles.  WTF is up with this thing?

What could the factory have f'd up on this thing causing it to run on 91 octane like it is 84 octane?  I don't think it is false knock detection
since I heard audible knock with the tune.  Lambda is rich at 0.78 to 0.82 so fueling looks good.  The load is maxed so the MAP is good.  I have not logged any part throttle stuff.
Thanks
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

SHOdded

How many miles on your XSport?  What is the maintenance history?    Have you checked for oil pooling in the intake tubes and/or intercooler?

Whose tune are you running?  Unleashed, LME, someone else's?  Where are you located?  What are the environmental conditions under which you logged KR?
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

glock-coma

Have you checked the plug gap? Some of the Ecoboost plugs come wildly varied from the factory. If your tuned you want your gap at .030
Instead of the factory 35.
Some have had their factory gap vary from .032 -.040.


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2010 red candy metallic non PP 402B
AJPTURBO 2 BAR Tune Stock 14.1@100.3 / Tuned 12.83@107.7
K&N panel, RX OCC, Sp-534 @.30 Tint 50%F-35%R BOV bypass
1997 SHO silver frost (sold)
1990 SHO triple black 5-speed (saved my life)

ZSHO

#3
Did you check for any DTC codes set ?  There is also a fuel system Recall not quite sure if yours is affected.  Z      http://www.carcomplaints.com/Ford/Explorer/2016/recalls/  BTW please follow the new members  INTRO section,thanks.  Z    http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php/board,14.0.html


2013 Performance Package SHO| Livernois Custom Methanol Tune|3-Bar Map|Reische-170-Stat|Full Race Tial-10psi BOV in Black|PPE-Gloss Black Hot Pipes|EPP Dual Intake in Gloss Black|PPE Catted DP|Corsa Sport Cat Back Exhaust|H&R Sport-Springs|CFM Performance Billet Valve Cover Breather In Gloss Black|Llumar 20%Ceramic window Tint|MSD Ignition Coils in Black|Extreme Roof Spoiler|Redline Fluids all around|Gearhead Intercooler|First-SHO With Direct Port Alky-VP-M1-100%-Methanol Injection|LMS-Custom-Dyno-Tuned @ 415whp-465wtq| Best Trap Speed of 115.54 mph|

16MagSport

6000 miles. 
Oil changed at 2k to Mobil 1.  Changing again this weekend.
Plugs gapped to 0.028
Stock tune logged.
Sea Level in Northern Cali 80 degrees
Union and Chevron 91 only ever in the car
Trying to decide if I should go to Sonoma Raceway and fill up with 100 octane to see if KR goes to 0 or put 87 in it and see if it detonates.  If it detonates on 87 then I can take it to the dealer.  However, what are the chances they would actually find something and how much damage would they do beating the hell out of it making it detonate while they troubleshoot?  I bet they would just tell me I got bad fuel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

16MagSport

No codes.  Plugs were 0.030-0.032 stock.  I put them at 0.028.  As far as I know, too wide a gap should only cause no detonation from spark blowout at high boost, not pre-detonation from lighting off too soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

16MagSport

Oh, I did take the intake elbow off and looked through the throttlebody and could not see any signs of oil.  The only thing I could think of is either the intake temps are too high, but I don't think Ford bypassed the intercooler lol, or the PCV was throwing oil mist in there causing the effective octane to drop.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

16MagSport

What IAT2 is normal at WOT?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

FoMoCoSHO

KR on the stock tune is normal.

Cali gas is the worst, do you have E85 around you?

Are you using TOP TIER fuel? There is a huge difference in knock resistance.

If you are using the SCT canned tune, scrap it and get a real tune, their canned tunes are garbage.

FoMoCoSHO

#9
There are compensations for IAT2 temps and ECT.

Stock IAT2 spark compensations start at 160 IIRC.

There really is no normal IAT2 but our intercooler is in a very inefficient location. That coupled with high heat, humidity, and an engine that runs hot, will get you to 160 easily.


sholxgt

Quote from: FoMoCoSHO on August 06, 2016, 01:18:32 PM


If you are using the SCT canned tune, scrap it and get a real tune, their canned tunes are garbage.

I would guess that this is the primary issue.  I've heard the canned tunes are horrible.  They just blindly increase timing and boost and hope the car survives.  Makes for a very bad combo with the bad Cali fuel.

I've heard great things about ACES fuel treatment as a possible solution.  My understanding is that E85 is very readily available in Cali as well.

If you are running the canned tune, get it back to stock before there's damage.  Then work with a reputable tuner to come up with a safe tune with your fuel of choice.  At minimum, I would run 91 octane from a top tier supplier.
Current - 2019 F150 Platinum FX4 3.5 EB
Formerly -2013 MKS Ecoboost Premium
PPE Catted DP's, 170 Reische TS, K&N Drop In, AJP Tune only at track - 12.87@106

16MagSport

STOCK TUNE!  I am using the SCT to datalog the stock tune.  I have seen 7.5 KR on the STOCK TUNE.  That can't be right.  This is with top tier 91 Cali fuel.  E85 is nowhere near me.  It is supposed to be able to run on 87, but it wouldn't be able to retard enough to keep from pre-detonating.  I tried an *** 87 tune on 91 octane and I heard detonation.  So, I went back to stock and logged KR.  Not good.  A fellow racer with an *** 15 F150 is running 12.60 on the same shitty fuel.  It has to be something else.  I would love to see a log from a stock Cali Sport on our crap 91. 
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

SHOdded

Well, let's see the logs you have for the stock tune, in full.  Don't know how many parameters you are logging, be ready to do a couple more logs if need be.
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!

16MagSport

I'll attach some when I get home.  I know there are compensations for IAT's and probably ECT's as well, which is why I gave total advance numbers as well as the knock.  It will dip below 10 degrees total advance occasionally in 80 degree weather.  My logs include a lot of parameters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2016 Magnetic Explorer Sport 401A  (Wife's DD)  13.55 @ 99.87 mph AJP Tune Only.
1993 Mustang, Big Bore Dart block 347 with Vortech SC, TKO500, 10.84 @ 128.5mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)
2006 Dodge Ram, 2WD Quad Cab Hemi, 14.60 @ 92mph
         (Burned in Cali wildfire)

SHOdded

Ok, with any luck, we'll get this figured out :)
2007 Ford Edge SEL, Powerstop F/R Brake Kit, TXT LED 6000K Lo & Hi Beams, W16W LED Reverse Bulbs, 3BSpec 2.5w Map Lights, 5W Cree rear dome lights, 5W Cree cargo light, DTBL LED Taillights

If tuned:  Take note of the strategy code as you return to stock (including 3 bar MAP to 2 bar MAP) -> take car in & get it serviced -> check strategy code when you get car back -> have tuner update your tune if the strategy code has changed -> reload tune -> ENJOY!